ARSo

CS in reply to my challenge to present a source that other chassidim explain the passuk צדיק באמונתו יחיה to mean that they rely TOTALLY on their Rebbe without putting in their own effort:
No, its pretty well known, but I haven’t yet managed to learn all the chassidus outside of Chabad so I’d have no idea where to look

It’s pretty well known… in Lubavich circles, because that is one of the straw men that they have created. Surely, if it’s pretty well-known you would be able to ask someone for a source.

On my end, I’ve been careful not to label specific groups or individuals, and made the examples generic.

Which, in a way, is worse, because your implication was that all other chassidim do these wrong things, which Lubavich allegedly does not do. Had you written about, say, Satmar, then it would have been lashon hara (actually motzi shem ra) just against them. The way you wrote it, however, it is against all other chassidim.

Surely you would agree that when early misnagdim talked against the ‘kass’, and they referred to all chassidim, it was worse than had they talked against only one Rebbe.

I have always marveled at the way Lubavichers say, as sechel has, that all Jews are equal, and that there is no difference between a mechalel Shabbos and someone who keeps Shabbos, and the like.

And despite that, on Shabbos in Chabad houses they either use mevushal wine, or they cover the bottle in case someone who doesn’t keep Shabbos looks at it. Still, no difference between someone who keeps Shabbos or someone who doesn’t, is there?

And lets not forget how the shechita of many mumarim is kosher, yet Lubavichers only eat the shechita of other Lubavichers. (Actually, according to what we have been saying for the past months, in some cases that may indeed be shechitas mumar.)

Avirah: My assertion that shluchim say tznius isn’t so important is based on this thread and your statements that it’s not an ikkar…

Sorry, but I don’t know why you are dealing with the assertions of shluchim. We have already learnt from CS that there is no vetting of shluchim, and they can therefore basically be am haratzim (I know a few – albeit not many – of those) and menuvalim (I know more than a few of those – seriously). So why is it surprising that they say things that we may consider apikorsus?

sechel: amazing can you translate it into English or you just say mashiach and decided it refers to chabad?

All of a sudden you can’t read Hebrew?! It says that if someone is misnabe about Mashiach it shows he was dealing with kishuf, shaidim or the Shem Hameforash (when he shouldn’t have, as we see from the end of the piece) etc. Does it explicity refer to Chabad? No. Does it clearly include Chabad? Well, was not the LR “misnabe” about Mashiach.

You are misnabe about moshiach the same way we are you say he’s not the rebbe.

(And he calls himself sechel 🙁 ) Are you for real?! Someone claims nevuah to say he’s Mashiach, and others reject him, so we are all the same?!

Do you Lubavichers go through a course which teaches you how to think crookedly? And if yes, did you end up summa cum laude?

CS (to Avira but it should have been to me): Shlichus, as I’ve said, encompasses a vast number of people holding at different standards. It is not the top 10% of lubavitch. There is no background checks on someone’s standards before they are assigned, if they signed up.

If that’s true that’s absolutely terrible! No background check on standards, so a shliach can be a total am haaretz, or a menuval, and he is officially recognized by the Lubavich powers-that-be as a shaliach.

I’d never heard that before, but now I have yet another reason to think that Lubavich is rotten at the core.

Again which sefarim all discuss this? Chabad? Other? Names?

ALL seforim that deal with Avodas Habirurim explain that once it is finished Mashiach comes immediately. Even Lubavich seforim say the same. Please enlighten us by quoting a sefer that explains that there can be a delay between the two. I admit I haven’t learnt everything, but everything I have learnt points to what I wrote, and I would like to see another viewpoint… if there is one.

The Rebbe said that Avodas haBirurim is finished because he knew what he was talking about. He said at the same time that it should not make sense, that it must be that what Hashem wants of us now is to switch to the avoda of Welcoming Moshiach.

I think I get it. The LR changed the playing field because it didn’t fit in with what he – and he alone – knew. If anyone else did something like that he would be called an apikorus, but not the LR because, according to the LR himself, he knew what he was talking about. And therefore what the RBSO has done simply makes no sense. So it’s LR -1, RBSO – 0.

Do you even realize what you are saying and what you expect us to believe?

sechel to me: its so important to keep people way from chabad, where is the MESORA for that?

Just for the record, I have never cited mesora as the reason that Lubavich is off the path. So use that argument with others, not with me.

At any rate, you don’t need a mesora to tell people to keep away from something dangerous, and if you takke learn Chofetz Chaim you’ll see that it is indeed a mitzvah to keep people away from something dangerous. For all the multitude of reasons mentioned in this and earlier threads, I believe – and others do as well – that Lubavich is dangerous when they spread their hashkafos, including Messianism, prophecy and nesius. So it is a mitzvah for me to forewarn other. There is no need for me to try to have a kol korei issued, I have a chiyuv on my own. Anyhow, most kol koreis are just ignored.

sechel: hachtarat meleh hamashiach…?
i heard there was meant to be one yud shvat 5753, is that an issue? Whats the problem? Its against halacha?

One issue at least is that it would have been only one group of Yidden – let’s even exaggerate wildly and say a million strong – crowning someone Mashiach without the consent of any other group of erliche Yidden. Not Ashkenazim, not Sefardim, not Chassidim, not Litvaks.

Add to that the fact that in Shvat 5753 the LR was incapable of much movement or any speech. If you don’t think that’s an issue then I don’t know what your definition of issue is.

Menachem quoting the Chofetz Chaim: שאם אינו תובע אין חיוב לתת את שכרו בו ביום

So I ask again. If a worker “asks” for his wages without making a fuss, is the employer not chayav to pay that day?

I still say that תבע does not mean demand in the sense the LR said it, which was – and I mentioned this problem the other day – that we have to say that it makes no sense (c”v) that Hashem has not brought Mashiach.

CS: Apparently you’re ignorant of the very early disagreement between the Alter Rebbe and his peers on the meaning of צדיק באמונתו יחי׳ה.

Can you give me a non-Lubavich source that tells us exactly in what way the Baal Hatanya’s colleagues differed to him regarding this passuk?

CS: There are plenty of frum people who aren’t honest in business for example
(Where’s sechel who should be complaining that this is lashon hara?)

If they have a yetzer hara, and would like to be rid of it, then they have not abandoned any mitzva, which is the terminology you used.

CS: I find this funny. Where in nigle/ other kreizen do you find Avodas habirurim discussed at length that you repudiate the source it comes from?

You find it funny, but it find the above very sad. In ALL the seforim avodas habirurim is what is required since sheviras hakeilim, and when that is finished Mashiach arrives IMMEDIATELY. (Surprise, surprise! You can find all this on our erstwhile friend chabadpedia.) Yet your source – the LR, right? – says that we’ve finished avodas habirurim, and the fact that Mashiach hasn’t come yet means that Hashem is (c”v) doing something that doesn’t make sense. I suggest that it’s not c”v Hashem who doesn’t make sense. Rather it’s the one who purported that we have finished avodas habirurim!

Is it any wonder that we look at some of the statements made by the LR and are unsure whether they border on apikorsus?

CS: She isn’t doing Chessed because she isn’t tznius- her Chessed is an expression of her Neshama…

The point being discussed in this story is not the way you should feel about the woman, it’s the way you’re being mechanech your kids. When an adult sees someone not-tzniusidk doing some great chesed – or a similar scenario – he can look at the good on its own. But your daughter doesn’t work that way. She sees everything, and as much as you may want to think that she thinks like you, and is discerning, she is much more impressionable. Any comment you make that could be taken by your daughter as condoning the non-tznius – even though you certainly have no intention of condoning it – may be taken by her as condoning it.

That’s why you have to ALWAYS be negative about the aspect you don’t want your daughter to accept. In decades of dealing with young people I have seen many people go completely off R”L, and many go partly off – some of them relatives, unfortunately – and it is nearly always because of parents/family expressing the “good side” of the person who is not frum.

CS: I must say, something is very odd. Lubavitch has spoken this talk in earlier years, how Peilischer Chasidim make it all about the Rebbe but in Lubavitch the Chasidim do the work and the Rebbe is just the teacher.

Have you ever heard of a straw man argument? If you haven’t here is the definition: an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent’s real argument.

In simple terms, rather than arguing with the facts, you represent the facts in a manner which makes it easy for you to dispute them.

“Peilisher chassidim” and their beliefs are something invented by Lubavich, so that Lubavich can say, “We are much better.” I know of no “Peilisher chassidim” who have ever said that the Rebbe is the one who does all the work!

But Lubavich is no stranger to straw man arguments. Just read the Memoirs of the Rayatz and see how the whole Litvishe world is represensted. Basically, stupid shallow people who thought they were tzaddikim.

It’s the same with mussar. Everyone in Lubavich knows that mussar seforim just put you down, while chassidus lifts you up. Strange because none of the mussar seforim I learn have ever put me down. Can you show me, for example, one place in Orchos Tzaddikim that puts you down?

CS: Interesting. Why did your relatives become lubavitch?

They were born Lubavich and have never strayed from it.

what I’m saying is, if I proclaim I have Nevuah, and say it was true, you wouldn’t be chayav misa for doubting me- it would need some sort of Rabbinic seal of approval.

If you proclaim Nevuah you have to prove it by predicting exact occurrences (unless, as far as I remember, another known Navi declares you a Navi). If someone can’t, he is, I believe, chayav misa bidei Shamayim. If someone can, then someone who doesn’t listen to him is chayav. I don’t think there’s any halfway.

The Rebbe told us all the sparks have been elevated already

That has always bothered me. If ALL the sparks have been elevated, then Mashiach should have come. I know the LR said that it therefore makes absolutely no sense that Mashiach hasn’t come, but to me, and those with whom I have discussed it, that sounds like nonsense at the very least, and apikorsus at the very worst.

Unless you live in Israel I find this hard to believe that someone comes up to you and starts off with this

I have had it happen on three continents!

I’m sorry that this has been your experience. Ironic considering your relatives aren’t Chassidish by your descriptions.

The relatives I was talking about in the story about their Chabad House, and the people I have sat with at simchos, are not connected.

sechel: Tznius: would having a live Rebbe fix the issue? You guys have so many compliments on our Rebbe, now you say the issue is we don’t have a live Rebbe?!

If you had a live rebbe there would be a definite chance that he would lay down some rules. A dead rebbe can’t lay down rules.

It’s like the internet. Other chatzeiros have rules about internet usage that originate from their rebbes. Lubavich only has rules suggested by rabbis and mashpi’im.

CS, you’re beautiful explanation of the ‘value’ of the shortcomings in Lubavich, doesn’t really hold water.

Just as a parent’s primary job is to instruct – yes, even dictate – to a child the way to behave, and a rabbi’s job is to instruct his community how to behave, a Rebbe’s job is to instruct and dictate to his chassidim. Allowing each one to move along at their own pace is great, as long as it does not affect others, and a lack of tznius – both in dress and in mixing of the genders – affects everyone in the community.

Furthermore, you can’t say that your rebbe didn’t attempt to ‘dictate’ to others, as there are numerous accounts of him meeting other rebbes and telling them that they should instruct their chassidim to learn chassidus, and to publish various works of chassidus – something that was against those rebbes’ mesorah.

Menachem, returning to your question as to when I am usually accosted by Lubavich missionizing Mashiach and the like, I forgot very surprisingly (!) to mention the most common situation.

When I am at a Lubavich simcha – as you know I have a number of family members and acquaintances who are Lubavichers – and am sitting at a table where I am the lone non-conformist. A glass or two (or three or four…) of alcohol usually makes the imbiber feel that it is up to him to convert the infidel, and I am harrangued by him, often with the encouragement of some of the others, to show me how my chassidus is wrong, and how Lubavich has the only true path. He has the Nassi Hador, the Navi and the Mashiach, while all I have is a belief in nigleh and a stress on tznius. (Please note, that in most instances the imbiber had very little knowledge of nigleh, and his risque comments show he has no inkling at all of tznius.)

Now I am not saying it happens all the time, but I am saying that that is the most common situation when it happens. And it does indeed happen.

Haleivi: As a Chosid, you’ve definitely dealt with Bechinos and Inyan of. You must be aware of the many levels of Nevua and Ruch Hakodesh.

Possibly out of pure ignorance, but I am unaware that there is a level of nevuah where someone who doesn’t obey the navi is not chayav misah bidei Shomayim. I’m happy to have my ignorance shown and the be corrected.

sechel: moshiach told the baal shem tov that moshiach will come when his wellsprings will be spread outside – when all jews will learn chassidus. (see keser shem tov first letter) ושאלתי את פי משיח, אימת אתי מר, והשיב לי, בזאת תדע, בעת שיתפרסם למודך ויתגלה בעולם ויפוצו מעיינותיך חוצה מה שלמדתי אותך והשגת
so chabad who follows the ways of the baal shem tov, try to spread chassidus to bring moshiach.

Just a second. Are you insinuating that all the other talmidim of the Mezritcher Maggid did not care about that statement you quoted? Don’t forget you’re referring to Reb LY of Berditchev (a mechutan of the Baal Hatanya), Reb Zusha of Anipoli (who wrote a haskama on the Tanya) and all the other gedolei ha’olam who were talmidim.

Clearly, the other talmidei Hamaggid understood the meaning of the statement differently to the way the Baal Hatanya understood it (if indeed that was the impetus behind his derech), and they spread chassidus in their own way without stressing the study of the kabbalah aspect of chassidus, as the Baal Hatanya did.

i never saw ananswer whether you guys are chassidim, litvish etc?

And I never saw the question, although I have mentioned a number of times that I am a card-carrying member of another chassidus which I’m sure you’ve heard of.

CS: Interesting you view it this way. For me, and watching a student as well, when we learn the sichos that clearly point out the Rebbe as Moshiach through obvious hints, it’s kind of like a quiet, “Oh really? Yah I guess that makes sense. The Rebbe is nossi hador and nossi hador is Moshiach shebador. Right cool…”

That’s not the reaction I get when I get accosted by Lubavichers who try to prove to me that the LR is Mashiach, and I’m not talking about infrequent cases.

Like I said I never saw the navi thing used in this way. More like the Rebbe is saying it as Nevuah/ stronger than regular ruach hakodesh- so it’s really real and happening.
I do think the punishment aspect of navi which you are bringing up would only apply if the Rebbe was certified/ pronounced as a navi by others- whether in Beis din or whatever the protocol is.

There are only two types of nevi’im. 1. The navi to whom all the laws of a navi apply, including, as yb mentioned, someone being chayav misa bidei Shamayim if he doesn’t obey the navi, and 2. A navi sheker.

You can’t have “half-a-Navi” which is stronger than ruach hakodesh but not quite the full nevuah.

CS: Thanks for looking it up. I agree with you that if that is what the sefer says it is misleading in this context.

Thanks for being intellectually honest.

As to Karliner chassidim etc also running underground Torah study, I can’t give you any info other than I have read and heard about it from Karliner chassidim, and in a discussion not at all related to Lubavich’s activities in Russia.

CS: I must protest your general denigration of an entire demographic of baalei teshuva…

I denigrated the BTs?! I don’t remember doing that! I keep saying that it’s the kids of shluchim, and a number of shluchim themselves, who I am complaining.

I have close relatives who run a Chabad house – official shluchim, not mushrooms (yankel berel et al, have you heard that term?) – and who regulary post pictures of what goes on in their institution. Forget the (not-yet-)BTs who are there and are doing what they are doing, although in my humble opinion there’s no need to post pictures of that, I’m talking about the shluchim themselves. Shomu Shamayim! Because of tznius issues I won’t elaborate!

CS: I think every community and individual have their areas that can use strengthening, and this is not unique to lubavitch. /em>

I have been to both kinds of homes. I haven’t seen bochurim/ girls at the same table, but have seen marriageable age at the same table separated by married couples. Could be these families are operating in guidance I don’t know about. I try to focus on my own decisions

You’re right for focusing on your own family. But stop defending the way others are because they “cherish” mitzvos and hiddur mitzvah in their own way. I could handle your posts more if you would come out clearly and say, “They are wrong! I wish they would behave in a more appropriate manner. Furthermore they are giving Lubavich a bad name.” But you can’t say that because everything is so rosey in Lubavich.

I just think it would be mentchlich for CS, who cited this Chabadpedia footnote, to admit in this forum that she was mislead.

CS, now that you’re back posting I was wondering whether you are going to address the above.

Menachem, thanks for clearing that up about Chabadpedia, and I fully accept your explanation.

I just think it would be mentchlich for CS, who cited this Chabadpedia footnote, to admit in this forum that she was mislead.