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Maybe it’s best to discuss how they are similar…unless that is so obvious to you it doesn’t deserve a discussion. To me, other than the association in the name, the connection isn’t a blatant one.
It seems to me that some posters here may be missing a sense of history. The Jewish people have never had “it” figured out. There have been seminal issues throughout our history which we, and no generation before us, have fully dealt with (see the Rambam who says Public Fasts are to keep in mind that our sins are the same as our forefathers). Galus is a process and a messy one at that. It is a process that we go through knowing that it will culminate with an Am Yisrael worthy of a true Geulah. Saying the State of Israel should not exist is tantamount to saying adolescence should not exist because of all of the insane things teenagers do. Like adolescence the creation of the state of Israel is a part in of our development, it is a vital piece of the process that leads to something meaningful. I am not going to sit here an enumerate all the incredible programs the government of Israel fund and have in place which allow the Chareidi community here to flourish in-spite of the fact that it is an unsustainable model without any outside assistance. The amount of money the State gives to charedi families, arnona breaks, schooling etc. all this for a community that fights the government tooth and nail not to involve themselves in society except where it benefits them (obviously I am stereotyping here but this is the over all sentiment). That being said I agree that there are serious issues with the government but I do not for a second believe that if we were to give over the reigns to the “Gedolim” (quotations not meant to be insulting, just saying “whoever they are”) that all of a sudden we would have a perfect state and Moshiach would come riding to town. We as a nation are not ready yet for a geula or it would have happened. It took hundreds of years of insanity (the shoftim period) before we were ready for a King and even then we messed it up…and when we finally had “peace” during Shlomo HaMelech it lasted a few decades before everything went to off the rails. There is no way to escape process…there are no shortcuts. We are the Am HaNivchar and Am Kadosh but we are not a perfect people and no sect among us has it figured out. If you think things should change that is great, criticisim (so long as it comes from the right place and is properly voiced) is how we move forward but to start saying that the State of Israel, which has against insane odds come into being, lasted as long as it has (and G-d willing will continue),done as much as it has for Am Yisrael (Yes Joseph, even Chareidim and even though there have been terrible stories here and there in their treatment of chareidim) should never have been I think, in my less than humble opinion, is a big mistake. My sincere apologies for the grammar here.
At age 24 i spent about 6 months cleaning houses after having been discharged from the IDF with an injury. May not have been ideal but working 10-12 hours a day paid the bills…mostly.
I just posted this Gemara on another Coffee Room discussion but I believe it is pertinent here as well. This Gemara is in Avodah Zara Daf 18
??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ????? ??? (???) ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?? ????? ??????? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? [?????? ????? ?????] ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?? ????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???
If the story in Har Nof confuses you, this Gemera will really make you rethink your preconceived notions. Look at how is Rebbe responds to him when he says “heaven will have mercy on me” (the implication is for being involved in Torah).
??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ????? ??? (???) ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?? ????? ??????? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? [?????? ????? ?????] ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?? ????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???
What are these segulos and why have i never seen any of them in my (granted limited) time studying Torah? Live your life as best you know how (at times proactive at times reactive) and recognize that life will happen.
For those who wonder why it is that hesder students are left alone, even though they only serve 9 months, it’s because they show an interest. The same is possible for the charedim if they would only show that they are involved. If they would only stop being bystanders in a desperate time. What if they started an “adopt a soldier program” (working title ;-)) where every guy learning takes one soldier and davens and learns for the sake of both of them. In one simple motion the chareidim would be showing that they are sincere about their beliefs and that they are invested participants in the struggle for security inIsrael . I am not saying this will remove a law that has been set in place but it will certainly alleviate some tension. There will be those who will continue doing what they are doing and those who continue to have their notions about the other…but if done sincerely it can be a step in the right direction.
Welcome to planet earth…Hashem took Adam on a tour of the world and told him ” look at this world, i am giving it to you so take good care of it because no one else will (pardon my paraphrasing of the Medrash). How can you not be interested in the events of the world? Its your world! Once you see it as a personal relationship you will want to know as much about it as I possible (save the story about A-Rod.
I am not sure how this got to the question of if tobacco is bad. In terms of are there drugs in yeshivas the answer is YES. To my knowledge nothing “hard” but marijuana and pills (both uppers and downers) are around, I wouldn’t say rampant in yeshivas. I have personal experience with guys from Ner Yisroel, Chaim Berlin, Mir (Eretz Yisrole) and Yesodei Yeshurin ( highschool and basis medrash) . it is a scary fact but guys have become adapt at covering up be it excuses or an upper to wake them up.
I understand that this is virtually impossible for a caring and loving parent to do…but you must be able to “deal with with life on it’s own terms” (which is the idea behind Din shebi’Chesed…but that is another discussion) Lot ran from Avraham straight to…SEDOM the nerve center of Din, and then he decided to become a dayan! He ran from chesed because it was smothering him. When the angles came to him, he begged them not to take him back to Avraham. Chesed in its purest form is not good (the act of a man who sleeping with his sister is referred to as chesed!) You can not smother (i know you dont mean to, but try to see it form his vantage point, as krum as it might be) him with love and expect that to help. He must come to it (what ever that is) on his own terms…be there for him when he is ready, but recognize that you can not control this situation.
As painful as it may be, and be assured it will be, your only job is to be there for him as he comes along. This is not something you or any Rabbi can control…HELP but do not control.
David Draiman.
If I recall (It ha are s been a very long discussion), wasn’t it mentioned that trying to “get to him” through religious means is futile? He will immediately associate them with an attack. 90% of guys that are disinterested in Judaism,are simply disinterested because they are adolescents. They are at a point when rules are almost oxymoronic to what they are trying to accomplish i.e a sense of their space, a community, a sense of who they ARE…all of which are journeys within which rules have no place. At this point wanting your son to be happy is the ONLY important thing; and ironically not “caring” about the religious elements will allow him ( in the long run) to ease back into it
Are you insinuating that God has “moods” or is in any other way a physical or mental conglomerate? That he has parts to him which he summons at whim?
But in truth before that is even addressed the question must be asked, “do you know what ‘chesed’ or ‘gevurah’ mean?” These aren’t simply “good” and “bad” or “lenient” and “stringent”.
I am not trying to be rude, I just don’t believe that Real concepts upon which this world is built, should be reduced to mere cliche.