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False equivalence. There is a difference between committing a sin and asserting that an act is not a sin.
OK. Why must a woman keep what you call “Tznius” in an MO community where she dresses to the standards of her community? And what sort of “sin” is she committing?
Teaching people things is different from forcing them to do things.
Not by Ervah, and certainly not if there is a textbook or examples.
LU: In a non-tznius manner
1: Prove it.
2: Prove that it is a problem as long as it is behind the Mechitza.
benignuman – That deals with activity. I strongly hesitate saying that playing a game is Margil L’Ervah by definition. The Tur/Shach is almost using the Mishna quoted to define ??????? ????????? ?????. I can do the same exact action with different people, and with some it would be ??????? ????????? ?????, others not. That shows it depends on “intent”. Using your example, I can play arcades with Ittisa, my daughter, my sister, my neighbor’s wife, a co-worker (male or female), or my son. Some are ???????????? ?????????, others not. You can’t say that it is (by definition) for a Niddah, but is not for a real Ervah (such as a sister-in-law).
I brought the Shach to define the Dibbur. Once you agree that “laughing” is not “Schok”, you need to have a definition of what type of Dibbur is Assur, that which is “Margil”.
LUL – Your point touches on a large Machlokes Rishonim with many Nafkei Mina in the Halachos of Tznius, Ervah, and Histaklus. We can start a new thread if you would like.
No different than public schools teaching about education to prevent STDs, or Families with two Mothers/Fathers, etc. which already exist in most of the western world. If you don’t like it, home school or send to private school.
10 to 15 years is along time, especially when compared to historically marrying and working at 17.
Historically you got married at 17, and half of your children died, as well as many wives. It is a different world.
benignuman – I’m using the Shach’s language of “Margilin L’Ervah” in YD 195. So yes, that does depend on intent in many scenarios. The source (Avos D’Rav Nassan) compares it to Chibuk V’Nishuk.
Where I think we disagree is that having fun together is bolstering the “non-platonic”ness of the relationship, just because the relationship will culminate in a non-platonic fashion (hopefully). One can and should bolster the “platonic” aspect of a relationship even when they are married (during certain times .), and that doesn’t mean a couple can’t talk and laugh together as long is it is not “Margilin L’Ervah” (For example, one tells over something funny that their child did that day).
As an example, a recent ruling allows a woman to nurse a baby in shul while davening.
Excuse me for being ignorant, but why is this an issue?
1. I was referring to current practices. In Israel only 45% of Chareidi men work and most of those are in low-paying “religious” jobs. Some leaders have issued bans against secular education, even in Chareidi settings, which effectively ban professional training. In America the situation is different although among some Chassidim there is great opposition even to learning and using English.
In all fairness, that is in reaction to the draft. In other countries until very recently, everyone worked. Even recently (as far as I can tell), Ruba D’Ruba get some sort of job within 10-15 years after being married.
Yes. Perek Lo Yachpur and the halachos of Nizkei Schanim discuss when you may not build on your property due to the adverse effect it will have on the neighbors.
I talked about Nizkei Shechanim earlier and don’t see them as applicable here. Those are only if something on your property will move on its own or otherwise affect others use of their or joint property. Besides, we (Pashtus) pasken like Rebbe Yose that one is not Mechuyav to be Marchik except Geeri Delai.
LUL – Could be.
derech agav, I find the title of the thread very upsetting. That is definitely Motzi Shem Ra.
I figured Ferd is the woman’s husband, or perhaps even herself. Otherwise I don’t believe someone would be so bold to distribute a video like that.
LUL, I agree with what you said.
You took the “dan L’Kaf Zechus” response too seriously.
My point was that she will lose, not that she was willfully and purposefully going against an ex cathedra decision made by daas torah :-p
OMG, LOL to LUL.
End story, IMHO, the real slight to Kavod HaTorah is those who interrupted Rav Feivel Cohen and tried to stop him from speaking. I would like to be Moche.
P.S. She specifically says in the video that she will go speak to the Roshei Yeshiva. You don’t need to be Dan L’Kaf Zechus to say that she doesn’t think BMG approved of the development.
I’m sure he was dragged into this because he lives there, but it seems to me that he was objecting to use of arkaos.
Wow. That we had to get to that point shows the sorry state of things 🙁 I didn’t know this was sued against (or for) in secular court. And to interrupt in the middle!!! Certainly not Kavod HaTorah.
Rav Cohen specifically states on the video that he is not a Dayan.
How does his living nearby impact his statement that it belongs in beis din?
It explains his involvement. He is a Ba’al Dovor, so his statement has more weight (i.e. he can bring BMG to Bais Din).
DY – Finding out that Rav Cohen lives nearby, it makes more sense that he is involved (as a Ba’al Dovor, not a Dayan).
No defendant ever wants to be taken to beis din, but if sent a hazmanah, has to go.
Having never been called to Beis Din (Beli Ayin Hara), how does that work? If a Bais Din in Lakewood calls me in, can I respond with a suggestion to go to a Bais Din in Chicago instead?
lilmod ulelamaid – And I’ll judge you favorably that you are really Rav Feivel Cohen, a “Senior” Posek, to come out with all of those P’sakim.
Furthermore, you are making the assumption that the development is negative. Why are you not Dan L’Kaf Zechus that the development is positive?
🙂
Rav Feivel Cohen is a most certainly a “Senior” Posek.
OK. I mentioned Rav Dovid because that is who Rav Shmuel went to when he had his question about the heter.
I am guessing Rav Feivel was asked by people who live in Pine River Village, which is right across from the proposed mall and is also where Rav Feivel lives.
Which would make him a Ba’al Davar, and a pasul Dayan.
A beis din has jurisdiction over anyone. All Jews are subject to beis din. And anyone has a halachic right to take another Jew to beis din for a binding ruling.
Sure, my question is why does Rabbi Cohen have jurisdiction in Lakewood on BMG and not a senior Posek like Rav Dovid Feinstein (who adjudicated the “Kaminetsky-Greenblatt Heter”).
Is there any halachic basis a beis din could stop a developer from building on his own property because neighbors don’t want the development?
I can think of a few (such as sewage disposal issues or Hezek Reiyah), but none of which would apply here.
Rav Feivel Cohen is on record as saying that a beis din should decide.
For my own curiosity, what right does he have over the head of BMG? Also, what sort of Taynah would others have to not allow BMG to do what they want in their own land? It is not as if they are Shutfin in the land or the road(s) leading up to the land.
Finally, would the Bais Din reimburse BMG the lost revenue if it rules against them? :p
I’m just saying that all sorts of assumptions, with negative connotations, are being made with no evidence.
Facts:
1: The land is owned by BMG.
2: There is a plan to develop a shopping center there.
It follows that:
The plan to develop the shopping center on land owned by BMG was proposed by the owners/decision makers of BMG.
Hence, if Rav Aaron has the final say in the Yeshiva (as I believe), he made this decision. If Rav Malkiel has the final say (as Joe says), then he made this decision. Either way, BMG has made its decision. Going against that decision means that you are going against BMG.
Mod, true, nobody here knows for sure who knew what when, but don’t we need to be dan l’kaf z’chus and not accuse anybody (particularly talmidei chachomim) of wrongdoing based on speculation?
This question goes to gavra (“Can you prove this?”) and others as well.
Honestly, it doesn’t make too much of a difference to me whether the titular Roshei Yeshiva knew about it or not. The Kotler family approved.
I personally don’t see the development as “wrongdoing”, and neither should you. The requirement of being Dan L’Kaf Zechus applies to HaGaon Rav Aaron Kotler as well as his brother Rosh Yeshiva Rav Malikel. The Yeshiva needs to support itself, and this is one way of doing so. If this woman wants to avoid materialism, she can leave Lakewood, just like all those who left to avoid the overcrowding and traffic.
P.S. If it is true that the titular Roshei Yeshiva did not know about this, it goes to prove my point that they are not involved in running or taking care of the yeshiva. And yes, those running the Yeshiva are (if you hold of Lakewood) the Gedolim of our time, whether they hold the title “Rosh Yeshiva” or “CEO”.
WinnieThePooh – You think in the real world the head of the company makes any of these decisions? You think that the Rosh Yeshiva in a yeshiva where he is in charge decides on each bochur accepted and how much they pay?
He sets out his strategy and has others (a menahel, Moshgiach, etc.) fulfill his vision.
P.S. I doubt anyone there is “responsible for the spiritual growth of 6000 talmidim”. Perhaps Rav Salomon, but it is well known that there is a lack of Hadracha for Bochrim in BMG. And after 120, the Kotler Family will decide as a whole who will be the next titular Roshei Yeshiva. I can’t speak for who will be the power/head in the family at that time.
Unfortunately, despite all efforts to the contrary, many of the not so favorable features and values of the outside world have penetrated our ihr haTorah.
As an area that is “in town” what did you expect? The only question is now that your town is over run by materialism, what do you plan on doing about it? Maybe sell (property values are up) and move somewhere more to your liking?
Some in Lakewood, Jackson and Toms River would call it “just deserts”. 🙁
Can you prove this?
Although this article is about Ramapo, the same can be said for any community where a new population is moving in, from Harlem gentrifying to refugees in Utah. Most people want their community to stay the same and don’t want change.
As long as the law is not broken, there is not much that those who are against change can do. Of course, if the FBI comes down and arrests the developer for braking the law, all bets are off.
Also, the developers quoted R’ Aaron Kotler and not the Roshei Yeshivas. So while it’s probable that he asked the Roshei Yeshiva, l’maaseh they were not the ones being quoted.
Because they know who the real “Head” of the Yeshiva is.
Joe – Someone who was practically bankrupt, which is why they begged Rav Aaron to come in and save Lakewood, which he did. He took the Achrayus, now it is his Yeshiva.
Geordie – I have a question for you. If the Rosh Yeshiva decides that his responsibility for the financial support of the yeshiva is best met by hiring a professional administrator who can do a better job than him in raising and handling the money, does that mean that he is relinquishing his title of Rosh yeshiva to his employee? I think that is what is being implied on this thread about BMG.
Totally different. In your scenario, the head of the yeshiva is still in charge. The buck stops with him, but he hires an employee to assist. If the employee does a poor job, the owner is still responsible. In the Mir/Lakewood situation, the owner is the one who is the ba’al achrayus and hence the “Rosh Yeshiva”.
GAW (and now Health, since you have joined the discussion) my issue is not who owns or runs the Yeshiva, but who gets the kovod of being the Rosh Yeshiva- the one who actually teaches Torah.
No problem. The Kavod can go to the titular Roshei Yeshiva because they give the top shiur, etc. The power is still in the hands of the real Rosh Yeshiva, the person in charge.
If it makes you happy, Rav Malkiel etc. can be the titular “Kavod Rosh Yeshiva”. The real head of the Yeshiva, who gets the Bizyonos of having to raise funds and the Schar of having to actually run the yeshiva, will be HaRav HaGaon Rav Aaron Kotler, Bizyonos Rosh Yeshiva of BMG. 🙂
Shalom al Yisroel
WinnieThePooh – I think you added a critical point. There is the “owner” of the Yeshiva, and the “Rosh Yeshiva”. While the first person makes the decisions (and is the “real” Rosh Yeshiva), the second may be brought in for whatever reason, and serves at the whim of the Yeshiva’s owners.
Ner Yisroel may be (and I’m not that familiar with the situation) a similar idea (and this may not be the Metzius, but hear me out). Although the “Rosh Yeshiva” is Rav Feldman, he serves at the whim of the Neuberger family, who installs their own people in positions of power within the organization.
In BMG the Roshei Yeshivos shlita are the bosses of the CEO. In YU the Roshei Yeshivos are not the bosses.
Half true, but you are at least Modeh that the titular “Rosh Yeshiva” is not always the person in charge 🙂
WinnieThePooh – Not sure what your point is. Are you saying that BMG is a family business and it doesn’t matter who gets which title, the business is run by the family as a whole (and the family as a whole is responsible for fundraising, etc.), vs. YU where someone from the outside is hired and is responsible to a board of directors?
GAW: “You haven’t said anything new. The Golden Rule states he who has the Gold makes the Rules. Although some grandchildren/in-law ended up with the title rosh yeshiva, only one person runs the yeshiva. Hence the head of the Yeshiva is HaRav HaGaon Aaron Kotler Shilitah, whether he gives a shiur or not.”
This is quite cynical, and frankly I feel it is denigrating to the actual roshei yeshiva of Lakewood….
It is actually a P’sak of Rav Shach (the Mir succession Din Torah). The Rosh Yeshiva is the person who creates and is responsible for the financial well-being of the yeshiva by raising money for the yeshiva, not the person who gives the top shiur or the biggest Lamdan. I’ll take Rav Shach over an anonymous internet person any day.
Besides, in all honesty, what are the chances that any one of the titular Roshei Yeshiva would be a “Rosh Yeshiva” in Lakewood had they not been a grandson or grandson in law? Halacha says they get the title, but nothing else.
Dash – I know nothing about YU (Richard Joel is YU, no?). Perhaps you can enlighten us? I don’t understand your second comment. Are you (rather cynically) saying that Gedolim only do things that are in their financial interest?
FS12 – No argument, but the Yeshiva (BMG) is entrenched in the town of Lakewood, which is no longer a “Yeshiva town”, but “in town”.
Unfortunately.
gaw, the Roshei Yeshivos of BMG are Mr. Aharon Kotler’s bosses. He does only what they want him to do.
LOL
If for nothing else, Rav Aaron Kotler was a Rebbe in Aish for five years.
A quick clarification: Ahron Kotler is most certainly *not* the Rosh Yeshiva of BMG, or a member the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah. He runs the business side of BMG (quite successfully), and the only yeshiva policies that he decides are the financial ones (hence the title of CEO). He’s a great guy, but he’s he’s a businessman, not a Rabbi – and I think he’d be at least as shocked as anybody else to hear somebody suggest otherwise. (Although perhaps not as shocked as some of the right-wingers of Lakewood, who don’t particularly like him.)
– From somebody who actually learnt in BMG, just relating the facts on the ground.
You haven’t said anything new. The Golden Rule states he who has the Gold makes the Rules. Although some grandchildren/in-law ended up with the title rosh yeshiva, only one person runs the yeshiva. Hence the head of the Yeshiva is HaRav HaGaon Aaron Kotler Shilitah, whether he gives a shiur or not.
1. We don’t know what the Gedolim said about this.
If you hold the titular roshei yeshiva of BMG to be “Gedolim” (one is on the “Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah”), then the Gedolim approve of the development.
2. Even if the Gedolim gave their approval (which we don’t know), I’m sure they never said that this has to happen or that someone is not allowed to protest.
3. She certainly has a right to speak to Roshei Yeshiva about it and express her opinion.
I’ll remember that next time anyone brings up “following the Gedolim”. I certainly have the right to protest and fight their shittos until I have the time to discuss the issue with them directly, without an intermediary. Looks like I get to vote Meretz after all 🙂
He seemed to be saying that just having fun and/or laughing on a date were problematic.
And Benignuman was Modeh that I may have a point. See earlier in the thread.
His concern that a couple will flirt once they know they are getting married.
I can’t speak for your doppelganger Joseph 🙂
She has a right to try to fight it and try to have Lakewood stay the same.
Sure, free speech and all that, but it isn’t “following the Gedolim”.
I don’t see how the yeshiva profits from the development.
The land belongs to the Yeshiva’s Cedarbridge Development LLC.
She said that at this point she would rather walk to route 9 (ten minute walk or so) than drive…she spoke about killing the serene neighborhood with huge commercial building. These are very reasonable arguments that many neighbors throughout America would make, Jewish or not.
Regarding Ruchniyus, personally I get where she is coming from, although I can also hear another angle. It’s debatable…but yes she make a big deal about the ruination in terms of overbuilding, congestion, and quality of life. And I can not imagine an honest argument to the contrary.
It will make money for Yeshivos, specifically BMG. If she doesn’t like that she can leave for somewhere nicer that is “out of town”.
If the prior generation were people, than we are like donkeys, and not even the donkey of R’ Channia ben Dosa or R’ Pinchas Ben Yair.
Shabbos 112
GAW- to the best of my knowledge, CEO does not mean Rosh Yeshiva. I lived in Lakewood for a few years, and I never heard anyone refer to him as Rosh Yeshiva before.
His title is CEO. Although there are four other Rabbonim who are given the meaningless title of “Rosh Yeshiva”, the actual Rosh Yeshiva (as in the head of the BMG Yeshiva, the largest in CHUL) is HaRav HaGaon Aaron Kotler Shlitah. CEO is above those titled “Rosh Yeshiva”.
LU, I agree with you, and I was going to correct him and present the names of the actual roshei yeshiva, but then I thought that maybe GAW was being sarcastic.
I am not.
How exactly are you defining “schok v’kalus rosh” if that’s not what you meant?
It has to be flirtatious. As pointed out there, I can play a game with my SIL (who is a woman) and have fun, even laugh, but not be flirtatious.
“Rosh Yeshiva of BMG, HaRav HaGaon RKBH Aaron Kotler Shlitah.”
R’ Aaron Kotler is not the Rosh Yeshiva.
What does RKBH stand for?
Rosh Kol Benei HaGolah. He is the head of the largest Yeshiva in Chutz L’Aretz.
And he is the Rosh Yeshiva. Says so on all the documents. Rav Aaron Kotler, CEO. CEO (in America) means he is in charge, no matter who gives or doesn’t give shiur.
Some people need to know they can laugh and joke together in order to have a connection. In which case it is l’toeles.
Laughing and joking and fun is not the “S’chok V’Kalas Rosh” that we are discussing. Please see earlier in the thread.
So on your point, I’m not suggesting they need to interact with the opposite sex in order to be more comfortable on dates. I’m suggesting that they at least understand HOW to have such interaction when the proper time comes, and realize the following:
1. Your date is not to be treated or talked to the way you treat and talk to your buddies.
2. Your date is of the opposite sex, and therefore, you should understand that you will see things differently. Internalize and respect that.
So you believe the real problem is that boys are not getting appropriate hadracha from either their parents or their Yeshiva.
I do mind, because I do not know if she does want her name included here.
And I can say I wouldn’t blame her.
So why do you think that she can go against the wishes of the Gedolim and BMG?
In reality, there is no one correct method, because people are wired differently. Some need significant interaction and a certain level of comfort before committing to a lifelong relationship. Others can just jump right in and work it out themselves after marriage.
The solution is to know yourself, know what works best for you, and that the people whom you trust and depend on should empower you to follow through with it, and not force you into using a method that you aren’t comfortable with.
As long as it is L’Toeles and not S’chok, I have no issues. You seemed to bring up the old argument that boys need to interact with girls in order to be comfortable when dating, which is hogwash.
GAW,
Apparently you do not know who this woman is.
No clue. Mind enlightening us?
For some, it’s too late.
The solution is NOT to let them hang out like Perutzim before Kiddushin. If you want to argue that they need to be taught how to live with others and how to budget, I’m all ears.
She will lose to Cedarbridge Development LLC and the Rosh Yeshiva of BMG, HaRav HaGaon RKBH Aaron Kotler Shlitah.
GAW- I would be interested in knowing how you define “Charedi’ism”. I don’t think you have said anything in this thread about your own definition.
I believe it is a societal construct, specific to Israel, and doesn’t really mean its original meaning (a Charad L’devar Hashem) in normal usage anymore. Americans don’t really have the concept in the same way that Israelis do, because the societies are much more fluid (as an example, Lakewood davens and speaks in Young Israels).
For example, Rav Shachter would be an “original definition Chareidi” (AKA a Charad L’Devar Hashem), not what we call a “Chareidi” in Israel in the normal day to day usage of the term. There are (mistama) many “Chareidim” who are not “Charad L’devar Hashem”.
Therefore, if we can agree that as a term in every-day use it only applies in Israel, I’ll agree to allow you to define it. Once you claim it applies to us here in America, you will have to change the definition 🙂
But ok Pizza is delicious. Maskim?
Agreed 🙂
IITFT – Just means Lakewood doesn’t follow its own Daas Torah!! Perhaps even for good reason (al pi Torah) 😛