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brooklyn19:
“way back, some things just didn’t exist. women did not wear pants”
Are you dealing with the Beged Ish or Tznius issue?
anyone who has a tshuva on the items on the list before some cut off date, lets say 20 years ago, would be helpful. (within then you can find anything). Also helpful would be a tshuva from an accepted Gadol, even if its recent.
Disclaimer: I am not commenting whether the list is correct or not. I would like to convince others (and myself), and need a Mekor for that.
Will anyone bring any Mekor to anything on the list without just repeating that the list is wonderful!!?
Thanks
dveykus613:
First and foremost, welcome to the forum.
I have heard the hora’as sha’ah arguement, but in regards to the Shoah, not Pritzus.
Your point goes to the heart of two of the recently debated issues (which do not have any answers as of yet)
1: Do the gedolim with no specific knowledge of the situation have a better answer then those who know the facts on the ground?
2: Will people listen to the gedolim if they say go to work (it has bee rumored that a Gadol in EY (RAYLS) had to retract such a statement after the Hamon Am protested/rioted when he made such a Psak), or do people do what they want against their rabbonim, as what seems to have happened in Lakewood?
I can not presume you have THE answer to either of the questions, and if you did, I would suspect you of Nevuah. Just be aware of the issues you are touching on.
yeshivishHak:
Have you done the math? Taking into account multi-child tuition breaks, klei kodesh breaks, MOFES, EIC, parsonage?
Someone who is working with only a high school education and most non-managerial college (BA) jobs are making a lot less than the professional kollel bochur. And no institution expects anything from you, as you are in Klei Kodesh and “poor”.
Mrs. squeak: Agreed, but as I said to Joseph, there are those who are not. For those who have the schedule I lined out they are learning full time.
Mrs. Tzippi: College (on-line or in person). I am sure someone could figure out how to get college (for those who don’t want to go to a regular school) classes given somewhat close to yeshiva and Bein Hasdorim.
Joseph:
Hate to argue, but unless FULL-TIME is way more than yeshiva sdorim, then you can learn a parnossah before, after or between sdorim.
Typical Seder is about 9:15 – 1:00, 3-3:300 to 6-6:30 and 8:00 to 10:00 (if they go to night seder). There is plenty of time in there if you are willing to push yourself. If your sdorim look more like 7:00AM – 1:00, 1:30 – 6:30 (mincha in the middle), 7:30 – 11:30PM then I agree with you.
Mz SJS:
Glad you got it.
Mrs. Supermom:
Post the Mekor!
whatshaiches:
I have also have some of my Kollel collegues who think that since I am working, I must be rich and Hoch up for money (either for their Kollel or other Bochrim, not themselves)
I believe the svorah is twofold:
1: Some Kollel Bochrim are obsessed with money (due to them wanting it and not having the means of obtaining some) (most are not like this)
2: Kollel Bochrim in many cases don’t give Ma’aser, but many working people do, so the Kollel Bochrim figure you (the working man) has money to spare.
Family Feud
Nedarim 66a
(Shidduch Priorities)
Nedarim 66a
The Big One
Will Hill:
C”V! Pro-Torah! We want to pay less tuition, work less and learn more!
Quote from Kitzur Shulchan Aruch:
??? ????? ???? ??? ????, ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??, ??????,???? ?????? ???????, ????? ??
???? ???? ?????, ??? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??????, ????? ?????? ??? ?????.
Thank you Kitzur.net (could not find the original online)
Joseph:
As Quoted “Someone who finds it insufficient to study on his own,…”
So you agree with the Shulchan Aruch that one should work less and learn more rather than support Kollel Bochrim.
The Big One:
Mitzva Bo Yoser M’Bishlucho! Work less and learn more!
P.S. Are you a Girls high school or Sem teacher? I only ask because you write (not only here) in the absolutes that symbolize that brand, i.e. the “you must marry a kollel bochur” type.
I will take Nedarim and Bikurim, b”n
How about the “recent daf (Kiddushin 29b)” argument over Kollel between Shmuel & Rav Yochanan, where the Gemorah learns both were influenced by their area? How about any “ha lan V’Ha Lehu”?
Just a thought.
Joseph: What if you pass a Yid late stuck in Hicksville or highway (no mans land) and your cell is out?
You have still not answered what your rav says about women driving!
The Rabbis daughters:
You make a good point about many people who are in Kollel are just married Bochrim, who have not yet grown up and are really not capable of supporting a family.
For those Bochrim, they may as well learn because they are incapable of doing anything else. Just please do not ask for our tuition money to go toward their tuition breaks.
teenager:
Yes! Please don’t offer a ride to strange men, even if they look frum!
Joseph:
What does your rav have to say about the subject? Did you ask him?
noitallmr:
Being that You know for certainty what is Assur and what is not (against SJS’ Psak), could You please help all the girls who need shidduchim. It really requires a Nes, and You have the ability to do it, being Omniscient and all that.
Joseph:
Tzadikim yes, but emulate?
I will argue (you may disagree) that I would rather emulate the person who works a full day, and still gets 4-6 hours of learning in per day (I wish I could).
As per boosting their ranks, I do so, but the kollel I help support has tests!
As per everything else, the risk/reward chesbon is beyond me, but here is some of the calculation: If by supporting ‘x’ kollel families by giving them tution breaks we cause ‘y’ husbands who are working to work longer and cut back on their learning to pay tuition, ‘z’ shalom bayis problems due to money, and ‘x+y’ women in the workplace (both kollel families and working struggling to pay tuition), causing those mothers not to be able to give proper hashpaa to their children, is it worth it?
More so, shouldn’t the working parents also be able to have a say in the balance they feel is best in their family, instead of involuntarily supporting Kollel men who may be better off working, and allowing the working men to learn?
You are going to tell me the “Roshei Yeshiva” said we should expand Kollelim, but in the USA (NOT E”Y!), the cheshbon is simple, and there is no clear-cut point at which anyone is willing to say enough, even if they thought they should (part of people’s disrespect for Rabbonim, they will just continue even if they are told no).
This is all assuming Kollel men can support their families by working, which I have pointed out earlier in this thread that many can not if they go to work.
Wow, much has been said over the weekend.
Joseph said: “cantor, Notice I said LEGAL. As long as an action is LEGAL, i.e. going to Kollel and getting FULL food stamps/WIC/etc. benefits, the Yidden should take no less advantage of it then the non-Jews.”
Agreed, but those who do take illegally (a significant minority, even if it is only a handful) give a shem ra to the remainder.
The bigger money issue is not MOFES, but my Tzedaka money going to someone who can’t learn up to the workingman’s toenails, because the workingman decides to be responsible and support his family (like the Kesubah states (good point Feif Un)) and pay full tuition, who’s problrm becomes worse as more Kollel families ask for a larger break/free.
Even if I don’t directly support (which I do), I indirectly do so by virtue of my larger tuition cost.
I don’t have internet at home.
So I am only “here” when I am work.
notpashut:
“everyone would have to be dressed in their finest outfits which would then turn into a competition, which would then cause a major nisayon for a woman not to wear make-up on shabbos which would then cause the men to take note of all the women hanging around outside of shul, which would then cause a whole social scene to develop, which would then find each family’s boys & girls to also start schmoozing which would lead to………………………………………………………… which would eventually bring about the spiritual destruction of the community.”
This seems to be an “in town” issue, and would not apply anywhere else.
Thank you for the Svorah.
I am what I say I am.
bored@work:
I have no personal Sem experience, but I have to agree (based on those who I have seen) that pushing Kollel can easily backfire. Even for those for who it does not, they can end up looking for the “Kollel experience” vs. someone who is serious about learning (which does not require Kollel, as many have pointed out), which brings us back to the original point.
bored@work:
You must have gone to a seminary where they do not say “When you marry a Kollel boy…”
Good for you.
intellegent said:
“gavra_at_work
I thought of that quote as well it’s very nice and all but your whole mentality sounds quite twisted!
I think your last post is sick! “With the Shidduch Crisis, its geting easier to extort, I mean convince the Shver help out the young couple.” !Sick!”
I agree. Thats why its so sad. If only the Roshei Yeshiva would do something about it…
NotPashut said:
“To the best of my understanding, aside for the Halachic issues involved, the GEDOLIM over the last forty years (who don’t have to be poskim) in their wisdom, i.e. Da’as Torah, WHICH WE DON’T HAVE! felt that if an eiruv would be constructed & used by the masses in Flatbush & BP it would lead to a churban (vehamaivin yovin).”
Now I’m curious. I’ve been to Flatbush and don’t understand (although the Halachic issues are there). Could you please point me somewhere where it explains why there would be a churban, even if you feel it should not be printed here?
Thanks.
Mz. jewishfeminist02:
It is still easier than getting a job that will feed and tuition a large family, particularly when the husband has no job skills (since his yeshiva did not allow him to go to college). In fact, Kollel has become the choice of many due to it being the only method of supporting their families, as once they leave Kollel, they will lose all of the breaks that they get.
And I see I forgot WIC, which as these are large families, will also add a significant amount of cash/food to income.
Also, if you are on food stamps you should be feeding your family rice and beans, not having company for shabbos meals! It is forgotten what it means to be “Pas B’Melach Tochal”!
intellegent:
Pum Fakert! Any reason is a good one to stay in learning! Metoch shelo Leshma Ba’ah Leday Leshma. (this assumes they learn and don’t just sit).
As far as the second point: With the Shidduch Crisis, its geting easier to extort, I mean convince the Shver help out the young couple. Particularly whan the girl has been told by her Sem teachers that Kollel is the only way to go.
BTW my Moshgiach agrees with me and uses this arguement to convince beis medrish bochrim to stay in Kollel (convincingly, I might add).
Mrs. Tzippi:
What “Everyone i assume would agree in terms of needs (money..) its much easier to learn”
Means that it is easier to live on MOFES (Medicaid, welfare, food stamps & Section 8/ HUD) and not pay tuition, get breaks on food, etc. since you are in Klei Kodesh than having to pay tuition, and have to work for your food (the curse of Adam).
In addition, most people who work (in the USA) have to deal with the commute, early fridays, Yom Tov, staying late for deadlines, co-workers, limited sick days, and most of all a resposibility to do the job. All of these do not exist in Kollel (except for some Kollels that have tests)(they do if you are a Rebbe or a Rav).
So yes, it is easier to live in Kollel (especially if you have the shver supporting) than it is to work.
“Only fools leave an inheritance”
Resh Lakish
“Sometimes the only thing more dangerous then a question is an answer!”
Bais Yaakovs where Shindy lives.
R’ Yirmiya
“It is obvious we are right (halacha is like us), since we are older. and you are not right because you are children”
R’ Avahu (reply)
“Age is irrelevant, only logic counts”.
Asay Shabbtcha Chol V’al Yitztarich LeBriyos.
Kal V’Chomer to eveything else in life.
Another idea is to take in boarders, or move to a smaller apartment (if you are renting)
gawker:
I recommend you go over to the owner and give him an offer he can’t refuse (Monetarily).
Otherwise, are you doing something about the situation or do you just want to hock?
How about a Caesar Salad?
Goes for both Milchdik & Flaishik.
Agree with sammyjoe.
Everyone gets called Rabbi these days.
That is why Maran is used, so the editor can separate those who he/she thinks are the real rabbonim from the run of the mill “Rabbi” or “Rav”.
Now “Gavra” is a title with real Chashivus. As in “Hahu Gavra”. He is mentioned more times in the Gemorah than any other Tanna or Amorah.
Mr. and Mar (as in “Amar Mar” (second place)) are also acceptable.
havesomeseichel:
AA is to combat slave mentality, which is a trait of Beni Cham.
feivel:
Mekor?
Not doubting, just asking.
I thought GLB was included in Arayos, but I could be wrong.
noitallmr
Member
“”I have spent much of my life studying Torah…I think that what these men do is wrong”
Well you better spend a bit more time studying because in MY Torah it says that it’s forbidden to look or speak to woman who aren’t related to you. And even if it’s not Ossur it’s defiantely a good thing not to greet woman so why can’t you accept it that some people want to be more stringent in Halacha??? “
Are you insinuating that you have a different Torah then the rest of us?
If you are, please leave this site and go to Jews for J (C’V). Since you are not, is there a better way to state your point?
I reiterate what I said in the Lakewood elections post:
1: There is a difference between Chumrah (to the point of Chossid Shoyte) and Halacha. “The orthodoxy we know” includes much of the former, and not enough of the latter.
2: There is only one truth. Moshe Emes V’Toraso Emes. I believe jewishfeminist02’s point is that you (whomever you are, myself included) do not have that truth, as you are not G-d. To claim that you do have absolute truth or its interpetation to the exclusion of all others is extremely arrogant and borders on self deification.
Your Rav may be closer to G-d than you are and therefore may have a better idea of the “absolute truth”, but it is still not a “monopoly on truth”.
The daykan in me is Mechalek between shoel and mayshiv Shalom, as well as Roy’e and Mistakel. Please consider such as well.
to add (I hope)
1: There is a difference between Chumrah (to the point of Chossid Shoyte) and Halacha. “The orthodoxy we know” includes much of the former, and not enough of the latter.
2: There is only one truth. Moshe Emes V’Toraso Emes. I believe jewishfeminist02’s point is that you (whomever you are, myself included) do not have that truth, as you are not G-d. To claim that you do have absolute truth or its interpetation to the exclusion of all others is extremely arrogant and borders on self deification.
Your Rav may be closer to G-d than you are and therefore may have a better idea of the “absolute truth”, but it is still not a “monopoly on truth”.
As per the post, it is sad that the rabbonim have lost control of the town, and that Lakewood has to revert to the politicians.
Get a Laptop with wireless (password protected).
Lock the router in the safe.
Home computer has no internet/wireless (remove USB cards from PC). Turn on wireless and use laptop for needed internet.
To monitor is a different issue.
Joseph:
Well said. Lev Melachim V’sarim B’yad Hashem, including the Ayatollahs in Iran.
lesschumras:
I believe Joseph’s point is that we may be better off without “unprecednted numbers to live a kollel life”, since those who do learn can not reach their full potential while not in poverty (one of the 48). Good point by Cantoresq that without the struggle, we do not have the proper perspective on learning.
This is a valid argument, even though there are many Gedolim that would argue. (especially in E”Y, where funding is the only reason why the Charaidim are in politics.)
It is very possible that Rav Miller would agree, so Joseph is consistent. It does not bode well for Joseph’s view of Lakewood, though.