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tvt: The parents should always be asked NICELY first why they aren’t meeting their chov to the school, and if they really can’t afford it (eg: loss of job) work it out after the school year is over. Obviously an araingment had been made at the beginning of the year or the student would not have been let in. Facts on the ground changing in the middle is not a reason to kick a child out in the middle of the year, as the child will not cost them any additional money to remain (since the spot is already taken). “Embarasment tactics” should only be used after asking a non-nogaih Rov, (from outside the community) and only in cases where there is no reason why the family stopped paying.
Anon: In your case, I would of considered home-schooling, since the school was obviously taking advantage of those who supported it.
A tefech is about 10cm, which seems like a lot of hair.
don’t forget e-daf.com
The question (3) was to walk a woman/date back to her house after the date not behind her, with her. Who do you think we are, Manoach?
tvt said:
“If I were the principal, I would have said to the bursar, “Rabbi so and so, I understand that you would like the children of Mr. so and so rounded up like criminals and sent home. Please go round them up yourself, or have your assistant do it. I am not going to take part in being mevayesh these little neshomos over money.””
Then the principal would lose his job. If no one was willing to do it, the school would close and no one would have a school. That may be better than embarassing a child, but the money must come from somewhere. Some chovos (electric, insurance, etc.)(teachers!) must be paid or the school will close. If this is a way to get the parents to take responsibility and raise the money (via a Tzedaka drive, possibly (as I have seen done)), this may be the only way.
Just because we know it doesn’t mean that the yeshivos will expose the bachurim to anything other than learning. It goes against the idea of the yeshiva being a fortress against outside influences.
Why stop there? why not go on to smoking, the internet, drinking, Noshim etc.? The yeshivos (perhaps rightly) feel that the one (or more) child who is not exposed should not be exposed by the yeshiva.
Just my two cents:
1) not if not engaged or agreed to get engaged
2) after dropping shadchan, but be short
3) always
4) married only
5) yes, but only if you are willing to explain why at that point
Good post
Mz. Tzippi:
How much does one make in Klei Kodesh?
Hishtadlus doesn’t work that you will make enough to pay full tuition if the job does not normally allow one to do so, except when the RBS”H makes a specific exception, which in that case playing LOTTO will do the same Hishtadlus. My point is that for Klei Kodesh either expenses could be cut or additional hishtadlus put in, so they have two choices, vs. the working family which only has one choice. Klei Kodesh are also expected to cut expenses, since they are willing to sacrifice more for Torah than in the case of the original letterwriter.
(If you have found a Klei Kodesh job that pays full tuition for a large family, please tell me so that I could become Gavra_in_Klei_Kodesh)
There is no solution to the problem, Yeshivas will never have enough money and the breaks will never be enough for those who need them.
However, I would think Klei Kodesh (rebbes and Kollel) would be willing to sacrifice more to have a jewish education, and could do with less of a break. After all, if they are really desperate they could always go to work, and the fact that they are in Klei Kodesh shows they are willing to sacrifice for yiddishkeit. Those who are working (possibly both parents) and can’t make ends meet don’t have that luxury, and may be “more at risk” of going to public school. (principles of Triage, give the most help to the most at risk) (Please don’t jump on me for this, but it is the reality.)
From what I hear, there is a serious problem of Tznius in lakewood due to the influx of non-lakewood type people who were/are (or their husbands) learning there. (The person who I spoke to compared the pizza places in lakewood to those hangout pizza parlors of the Five Towns) Perhaps it is time to start a new “branch/move” for the serious learners further out of town where ther is already a frum community but close to NYC (Allentown comes to mind as a possibility, maybe Scranton is a bit too far) where the cost of living will be much cheaper, and many of the issues with living in the “in” location will go away? If a large group moves at once, we may be able to re-create the community of 30-40 years ago where everyone wanted to follow the rules.
Just a thought.
Joseph
Of course you aren’t a woman. I can’t understand style either, but it does exist and would be not Kavod to show up to a wedding, etc. or even Schul on Yom Tov with something that was better worn 20 years ago.
They way I read the story was that the teachers told them to ask. Re-reading it, I see it does not say the teachers told them to do it, so they may have done it on their own.
Obviously Joseph is not a Woman.
I’m a guy (as the name says) and would not have dared to ask R’ Shach a question on a Ramban (or Tosfos) if I would of had a chance to meet him! How about a Bracha that you should have children who are Yarai Shmayim (let alone get married)! Asking a question of that nature is for a personal Rebbe, and R’Shach was the GADOL HADOR.
It is a general problem (as JO JO pointed out in the post on kiddashim) of Penay Hador K’Penay HaKelev. The Gedolim are people who we stand in AWE from, not talk to them ask equals or even only one step above us.
(I would not blame the girls in this case as their “teacher” (probably the sort who says that you are eating Traife if you don’t have two sinks) told them this was the right thing to do, instead of the teacher asking her Rebbe or husband.)
Timche es Z’ Amalek is one of the hardest mitzvos out there. I hope to be challenged because it will mean Moshiach is here (B’Karov)!
Jent & Joseph: If a Tsadik and Melech like Shaul did not pass, don’t “dis” CANTOR for not wanting to be tested. This reminds me of the story in the Gemorah of RAV and Menashe HaMelech.
Think BIG:
From my “side of the aisle”, I had a Moshgiach who not only helped every bochur with Shalom Bayis before marriage, but also was avalible (and We (myself and my wife)) went to him after marriage with any major issues that “cropped up” (such as how to deal with parents/in-laws, learning vs. shana rishona, etc.). Part of the issue is that the other side may have no-one with whom to talk these issues through.
The main issue (I think) is the lack of information on how much EFFORT it takes to make a marriage work! Girls are taught that marrying a Kollel guy is the end-all, and not to worry about the effort that is needed and may be unavalible when the wife is both working and taking care of children, and the husband doesn’t help either because he is busy learning and the wife is too embarrassed to tell him she needs help, or he doesn’t want to / know how / immaturity which she overlooked because he was a good learner AND THAT’S ALL SHE LOOKED FOR!
Bochurim these days have their mothers and cleaning people at the dorm pick up after them, throw out their garbage, do their laundry, cook, etc. and you wonder why THEY ARE NOT PREPARED for marriage!
If the Sems taught how hard it is to be married (B”H), let alone be a Kollel wife, and the boys were taught their responsibilities at home, Klal Yisroel would be much better off.
I would like to know if there is a similar support system on the other side of the fence, specifically post-seminary.
BIG:
“So, gavra, while we want to teach that perfectionism is wrong, some need to hear the message that they need to try to do the best they can. Others need to be told that for them, trying the best they can is too much.”
Took the words out of my mouth.
I learned cooking at home! Home cooking is much better than school cooking!
Think BIG:
The parents who bring up their child should have drilled into them hadracha and together with their life experiance they should have a good idea by the time they are ready to go out (which may be later than they think!). If they don’t know what they want, how can they get married!
Professional Shadchanim who don’t only look at wealthy families so that they can collect is a great idea.
To Aishes Chayil: Are you a “Troll”? (for others, look it up in regards to forums)
Excellent point as usual, Think BIG.
The girls schools that I know into allow students electives so that they can choose what they would like to take for secular studies. (Cooking is an option, and so is useful stuff like computers).
If you want to stop frustration and double workload, the best way would be to teach that perfectionism is wrong, and getting a “B” is good too!
I also believe that there is no set curriculum outside NY & CA (where there are regents which are needed for a diploma), so in Lakewood and out of town this could be helpful. In town you are stuck with the “hard stuff”.
Chanoch l’naar(a) al pe darcko(a?).
The problem is not teaching Nach, for those who wish to learn it, but not teaching Home Ec and Halchos Habayis at all. It is not REQUIRED for them to know “countless meforshim” (though there is always a “long term benefit” from Hashem’s Torah!), but it should be offered if they want to learn it. Forcing girls to memorize Nach who have no interest will only push them away. For those who want to learn, Kol Hakavod!
Cantoresq said:
The idea was never to turn Jewish girls into docile haus-frauen, but rather to instill within them pride in Judaism born of knowledge of it.
100% true! But we should not force heavy anti-enlightenment learning on those who wish to be housewives, or who just want to learn how to be a good jewish wife!
Suggestion 2: see post on education.
cherry:
They stole it from us!
Lets just say it involves Sacraments, V’Hamaivin Yovin.
I wish I were a Gavra Raba, but as you know, even the Gemorah is not sure who that is!
To clarify, the bochur was not asked to leave C”V! He stayed in the dorm and learned seder, just with much less stress learning what he chose.
The point is much of the stress mentioned by Yossi G. is a product of being in town, and if young couples moved out of town it could solve many of the problems we discuss/try to find solutions (as someone else mentioned on a different thread).
I don’t mean that Lakewood is not the best place for many people (outside E”Y, of course), but for many others, not. Meshane Makom, Meshane Mazal. Out of town has less financial pressure, as well as pressure to keep up with the latest chumra.
There is NO EXCUSE to get Shikker or do drugs (illegal or perscription). One of my Roshei Yeshiva told a bachur he could not learn gemorah for a week because he needed to calm his nerves. Another told a bachur to take a hike once a week (not during seder). Fun and Mutar are not mutually exclusive.
When you move out of town! People will accept you for the frum yid you are!
Yasher Koach Think Big!
My rebbe always said that a hat and jacket is the uniform of Hashem’s army, and when you wear the uniform its hard not to play the part.
But also Y”K for noting it is not the end all, and it is not required to be a Torah Yid.
Your post reminds me of being at a chol hamoed pesach outing, and someone (older) telling me that the matza and cream cheese that I was eating was traife (he didn’t eat gebrockts). People are quick to judge.
Q: If you come to shul to talk, where do you go to daven?
A1: Starbucks (or Wawa)?
A2: Sloatsburg?
A3: Ezras Noshim?
have the gedolim assur/discourage premium cars, such as lexus, acura, BMW, etc.
Why do we need these except to show off?
If you need a luxury auto get an Avalon or Maxima fully loaded and you won’t be able to tell the difference. If you need to show off to clients then get a Prius or other hybrid, they will be more impressed by that.
Re:
ujm
A Yirei Shmayim wears a hat and jacket.
A Yirei Shmayim doesn’t seek excuses, its too hot, etc. too daven without kavod i.e. by not wearing a hat and jacket.
Funny post, but I’m not sure whether to laugh or cry.
I just hope Hashem doesn’t judge Yiras Shomayim based on whether you wear a hat or not (or hat size)! What will all the women do?
Can someone wear a Fez or a Turban (like most rishoynim did?) will that make someone into a yarai shomayim too?
To Josephf
A Rayah to you from 23B Bava Basra Tosfos D”H V’al, that some questions are unacceptable, especially when they deal with emunas chachomim.
However, I would not classify R’ Yirmiah as “pro-freikeit” or a Rasha (C”V)! Everyone makes mistakes, and it is up to THEIR rabbonim to decide if they did something wrong and how to give tochacha.
I don’t think it is possible for every poster to prove they have an OK for each post from THEIR rav (whether from A”Y, Lakewood, Phoenix or Timbuktu), so a possible solution is to have an approved YWN rav moderate. He can also screen out posts that are
inappropriate for other reasons (name your pick).
Oy Vey!
Not a matter (I think) for a public forum to decide, ask your Rebbe/Moshgiach together with all of the particulars and the two of you can work on a course of action.
B’hazlacha.
And if your shaila is answered that you should not prepare for work, your next shaila should be if the rov will go collecting with you if and when you need the money.
EinOdMilvado, those who work do so because of their chiuv to pay tuition and support a family, which are both Gemilus Chasadim. Chinuch Habanim is the Ikar, as Hashem only gave us the Torah because we will pass it on to the next generation. Whether you are required to work so that you can pay tuition is a different question.
Besides, the idea is to have children who can support you in Kollel (or at least allow you to retire and not have to work for them) so that you can learn the whole day, since you appreciate learning and spend serious hours learning as a ball habayis (with your 8 hour workday if you are lucky!!!), vs. your children/in-laws who think learning during Bain HaZmanim is Assur.
Of course we are not talking about Mitzuyanim who should be supported, or someone who has a yerusha (current or upcoming) but someone who will not be supported for the rest of their life has to ask a serious shaila before they decide not to prepare for that eventuality.
P.S. If my brother (or shver/parents/uncle moneybags) was rich and could pay my tuitions and rent, I would learn full time as well. But this discussion is for people who (probably) will need to get a job at some point.
Many Roshei Yeshiva would argue that spending time on college takes away from the bochur’s/kollelman’s job, which is learning. Once the person is ready to go work, it is too late and not worthwhile to get off of MOFES. IF you could get the Roshei Yeshiva to agree…,
The writer writes:
What is happening to the Bochurim in yeshivos that allow camp? Are they no longer following Shulchan Aruch? Or are they becoming Maggidei Shiur and Roshei Yeshiva (or someone who follows Shulchan Aruch)?
In addition, the Bochurim who “run around” at SEED are not responsible and can not be a counselor, and those who don’t run around learn, as a bachur is supposed to do.