gavriel613

So far the posts have taken one of two positions: Either “Its my seat, he can get out”, or “Its bad middos to kick him out”.

I think that middos aren’t only on the seat owner. The person sitting there is also expected to have some middos.

Finding someone else sitting in their seat is upsetting for a lot of people. It leads to aggravation, and feeling bad if they do ask you to move. Just read many of the above comments if you doubt this.

I often daven in shuls where I don’t have a seat, and I always ask the people nearby if the seat is available, or wait until late enough in davening to assume no-one’s coming.

Having said that, using this as a reason to kick the fellow out because he has bad middos by taking my seat – that itself is bad middos! Two wrongs don’t make a right etc.

A bigger cappel is hiddur mitzva, like a bigger esrog. The point is to remind you about Hashem, so the bigger it is the more it reminds you, hence it is a hiddur.
If it looks nice its Zeh Keili ve’Anveihu. Probably a black velvet one is better i this respect than “a huge green and purple knitted” one.
But of course the most important thing is that it should have a rim. Joseph didn’t ask about the importance of the rim because its so blindingly obvious.

yitzymotcha and big deal,

Thank you for bringing some psychological insight into the mechanism of anxiety.

I don’t have a background in psychology, but you are in effect asking a kashya on the Mesilas Yeshorim quoted above, and I would like to try to answer (unless you can explain to me that I’ve misunderstood the MY). Would be very interested to hear back from you.

Imagine a girl who was very nervous about being assaulted on the way to school, even on the main road in a safe area, where there is no rational reason to worry at all. As you say, her anxiety is a physical thing, possibly caused by chemical imbalances etc, and of course you can’t “talk yourself out of a fever”, so just thinking about bitochon won’t help, as you argued.

However this same girl has a different eitzo: that her father should walk with her to school. Her father is a tough big 6 foot fellow who has of course looked out for his daughter his whole life. She feels perfectly safe and secure in his presence and doesn’t feel at all anxious when he walks her.

Now I assume you’ll agree that as physical as anxiety can be, it nevertheless makes sense that even someone with these chemical imbalances would be able to stop worrying in such a scenario. And the reason is, this isn’t the same as trying to be rational and stopping worrying about whatever, where the ‘scary voice’ can politely disagree and get her worried again. This is different because the whole situation is different, its a situation where there is no place for her anxiety.

Well then, if we would really feel that we ARE always walking with our Father – if we would really really feel that way – there would similarly be no place for anxiety.

Obviously as I wrote earlier it is very hard for us to achieve such a level of bitochon, and the psychologists’ methods may be more achievable. I also think that bitochon is best learnt by example rather than from seforim, if everyone would have access to a role model in this area it would be easier to see how bitochon can counter anxiety, saying Tehillim a lot is I think a bit like having a role model, as it shows us how Dovid Hamelech applied bitochon in his life. However difficulty aside, as this is possible, the Mesilas Yeshorim is meyushav.

Haimy great point.

Something I’ve been confused about for a while is the classical Jewish approach to suicide. Nowadays the prevalent attitude is to sympathise with what the person must have been going through and how terrible it must have been for them, just with a proviso that they still shouldn’t have. Yet the classical approach seems to be as though they killed themselves for fun, or because they couldn’t control the suicide taavo. There doesn’t seem to be an understanding of the depression which is presumably what caused 99% of these suicides.

Hey I only just saw this thread! Not sure what the appropriate reaction is?

Joe,

I understand your question. I wasn’t posting what I wrote in response to your earlier post that “most anxieties are rooted in real life occurrences, the irrational part is the association later on to other events”. I was responding to PBA’s original post which was talking about any anxiety.

However I still tend to disagree with you. As you yourself put it originally, “the irrational part is the association later on to other events” – his current feelings are bottom line irrational. The explanation the psychologist will give may be a rational explanation, in that we can understand how such an anxiety could develop. But that doesn’t mean that the fear itself is rational. So I think Bitochon on a high level would sort out the anxiety even here (though I’m not sure and can’t prove this from the Mesilas Yeshorim).

Having said that, it wasn’t my intention to belittle the psychological methods of resolving anxiety (with which I’m not familiar). Achieving a high level of Bitochon is no easy task, and although it would be better to resolve the anxiety this way, often the psychologists’ way is simpler to achieve results. So I agree with your final point that all these steps are helpful.

I can’t post the loshon of Mesilas Yeshorim for some reason. Perhaps the site automatically blocks posts mostly in foreign languages? Anyway I assume everyone has a Mesilas Yeshorim. Or go here: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=52042&st=&pgnum=100&hilite=

In the first paragraph about pachad, what he is describing is clearly anxiety, and he finishes the paragraph by advising Bitochon to counter it.

Later, again, he starts by saying we should have Bitochon (‘ויהיה נכון לבו בטוח בה) and not be anxious and worry always. The only type of worry we should have is one based on logic, וזאת היראה המיוסדת על הנהגת החכמה והשכל, היא הראויה, anything which isn’t logical (ie anxiety) is היראה השוטה, i.e. when it isn’t שכיח היזיקא .

In summary, it is clear that Bitochon is the antidote to illogical unwarranted feelings of anxiety. And if you ask, how can something in your head stop a feeling in your heart, the answer I believe is that Bitochon isn’t supposed to be only in your head, but deeply felt in your heart as well.

The Mesilas Yeshorim is in Perek 9. Well worth learning through properly. Here are some selected bits:

עוד ממפסידי הזריזות הוא רוב הפחד וגודל המורא מן הזמן ותולדותיו, כי פעם יירא מהקור או מהחום, ופעם מהפגעים, ופעם מן החלאים, ופעם מן הרוח, וכן כל כיוצא בזה. הוא הענין שאמר שלמה עליו השלום (משלי כו, יג) אמר עצל שחל בדרך ארי בין הרחובות. וכבר גינו חכמים זכרונם לברכה המדה הזאת ויחסוה אל החטאים, ומקרא מסייעם דכתיב (ישעיה לג, יד) פחדו בציון חטאים אחזה רעדה חנפים, עד שאמר אחד מן הגדולים אל תלמידו בראותו אותו מתפחד, חטאה את (ברכות ס, א). אלא על זה נאמר (תהלים לז, ג) בטח בה’ ועשה טוב שכן ארץ ורעה אמונה.
– what he is describing is clearly anxiety, and he finishes the paragraph by advising Bitochon to counter it.

curiosity, I was talking about the criticism of how the daughter was dressed on city streeets – see both of the comments – I agree the mother should be told off for what she herself was wearing in the courtroom

Logician – have found the Meshech Chochma (Dvorim 10:20 – this weeks parsha!). From his opening few sentences it is clear that he is offering a pshat he agrees is not like the Rambam and Ramban, I looked through the whole piece quickly and he doesn’t seem to try to reconcile his pshat with them. So, whats the source of bitochon according to the Rishonim

mw13, looked up the Michtov meEliyohu. When R’ Dessler calls this shituf and kfira I’m fairly sure this is a borrowed loshon and lav davka, as I said before. This is common in the more recent mussar seforim, he doesn’t mean a psak halocho that he is doing proper shituf which is avoda zoro, see below.

Avi K, see Chinuch 417 who uses the actual word shituf:
תיז. מצות אחדות השם.
שנצטוינו להאמין כי השם יתברך הוא הפועל כל המציאות, אדון הכל, אחד בלי שום שתוף, שנאמר שמע ישראל ד אלקינו ד אחד
The christians are just one example of shituf, and that is the main reason people talk about shituf as its relevant nowadays, but it isn’t the definition of shituf. The definition is believing there are other gods apart from Hashem (as opposed to saying there is only a different god and not Hashem). Whether you believe that god is somehow part of Hashem, or works together with Hashem, or is Hashems enemy or something, that is called shituf, because you don’t believe ד אחד.

Ramban on the possuk of shema brings from Chazal:
רבי נתן אומר מכאן תשובה למינים שהם אומרים שתי רשויות הן שכשעמד הקב”ה על הר סיני ואמר אנכי ד’ אלהיך מי מיחה כנגדו
Hence this is coming to forbid us to believe there could be another god who would want to make a macho’oh against Hashem and say I’m also a god. Both Avi K’s and mw13’s explanations of shituf would make this medrash hard to understand.

But I haven’t learnt meseches avodo zoroh yet so I may well be wrong.

CTLAWYER I assume that wasn’t the judges only reason for awarding custody to the father! It’s not really the judges place to tell a mother how to dress their daughter on “city streets”, I think she should have stopped at telling the mother off for her own dress

1) I have neighbours who scream at each other all the time, they’re in their 80s and have probably been married for 40+ years. Point being: there is a possibility they are just the type of people who scream, not good but not necessarily violent. Consider that the Rov may have more knowledge about the case which he isn’t at liberty to reveal.

2) Re the issur moiser. I don’t know the halochos but have heard (in a different situation) it can be OK to call the police without saying the exact address. E.g. if it was from house no. 48 on the road, tell them it was 46-52, you were passing by and couldn’t tell exactly which. If/when the police come they will figure out for themselves, so you weren’t technically moser them. OBVIOUSLY you must speak to a Rov before applying this!

3) Perhaps try a different Rov, say you’re concerned about how the first Rov is handling it. Hopefully Rov 2 will talk it over with Rov 1 and you can have yishuv hadaas that it has been handled well.

4) Someone said record it, not sure if its OK to record another couple’s arguments, perhaps it would be more acceptable to phone the Rov while they’re at it if he’ll be able to hear that way. If you’re really worried maybe you could consider hiring a private investigator. (New thread on YWN: private investigator recommendations…). But I don’t think its OK to start trying to find proof yourself

Curiosity – there is certainly an inyan of tznius for men. See Rambam Deios 5:6 where this is clear: “צניעות גדולה נוהגים תלמידי חכמים בעצמן לא יתבזו ולא יתגלו ראשן ולא גופן”… Although there it is talking about a talmid chochom, but everyone has halochos of tznius in beis hakisei. (If you meant specifically stained clothing, then I agree, the Rambam there brings the halocho of stained clothing separately in halocho 9, implying it is separate, as you say).

mw13 – I agree your first example is apikorsus, because it states that Hashem’s koach is limited, as though Hashem were incapable of giving parnoso without my help ch”v.

But I don’t agree with your “Ditto”, it isn’t a ditto at all, I would have thought its completely different. If someone believes Hashem COULD do it, but thinks that in the system Hashem chose to set up their hatzlocho does come from their hishtadlus, to the best of my knowledge this is not apikorsus, but is a lack of bitochon.

Your brothers teacher also, if he meant that Hashem CAN’T stop global warming then he is an apikores as well as stupid (nebach and an apikores, to misquote). But if he said that Hashem wants us to try to look after the world, and set up the world in such a way that problems can develop if we are poisheia, then this isn’t apikorsus. (For all I know this may be right, Chazal say (albeit about something different) “תן דעתך שלא תקלקל ותחריב את עולמי”, there is a potential for קלקל which is in the hands of people, it is possible that it is the same here, you would presumably agree that one shouldn’t pour petrol into the ocean etc as it damages the world. But lets not hijack this thread).

The term shituf as far as I am aware generally refers to belief in two ultimate koichos. It is conceivable that R’ Dessler or other Baalei Mussar borrow this loshon to describe bitochon in two sources, even though it really means emuna in two sources i.e. accepting them as a god. Thinking that you play a part in your success obviously doesn’t mean you accept yourself as a god.

It is true that people would have stronger bitochon if they had perfect emuna. However with every aveiro one could argue that if the persons emuna was stronger they wouldn’t have done it, that doesn’t mean they’re an apikorus. As long as they know intellectually and believe in these ideas, not having fully emotionally internalised them is a chisoron, not apikorsus.

[I have often wondered what the source of bitochon is. What parts are mideorayso, what parts perhaps miderabonon or minhag, which parts a good middoh. As most of the seforim which discuss bitochon are mussar seforim it can be hard to tell. I don’t think the Rambam brings a chiyuv of bitochon in Maddo or in Sefer Hamitzvos as one of the mitzvos min haTorah, indeed this may be part of the Ramban’s point in shikchas haseyin no. 8 “Tomim tihyeh”. However even the Ramban doesn’t include in that mitzva everything which is normally included in the term bitochon. Which is what leads me to wonder whether some parts of bitochon are a middo.]

apushatayid – obviously not. Your example isn’t to do with how he drives specifically, it is a general problem with his middos which she sees when he drives. I was referring to someone who isn’t a very good driver, eg he makes the car stall (in a manual car), is over cautious, misses turnings etc. I think you will agree that in an otherwise perfect match a girl would be stupid to reject because of this, even though driving is very useful.

Sorry if it wasn’t clear I meant this, see my follow-up post https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-could-a-girl-ever-have-a-bad-date/#post-1334765 for clarification.

As far as slowing down the internet is concerned, my experience is that it depends on how you use K9. It was designed (I imagine) with the idea that a few categories would be blocked, and say 90% open. So when you try to access any given website, it only needs to check that website against 10% of their blacklist. This is fairly quick.

However if you try to use k9 to block almost anything then it goes very slowly, as it has to check almost every category.

When I went to TAG to ask that they install k9 for me, I specifically asked them not to block categories like smoking. That category is for smoking addicts, there is no reason whatsoever why your standard frum Jew would want to block this. There are quite a lot of categories like this. I respect TAGs mentality of Ossur unless proven Mutar/necessary, but this is what slows down TAG in my experience.

Slominers – “Why wouldn’t how he drives, under possibly stressful driving conditions, be objectively relevant for the girl to help decide if he’s a baal middos?”

Yes certainly bad middos can be seen under stressful conditions, and obviously the girl should take them into account. But even someone with very good middos could still easily get flustered, e.g. by having a close scrape with another car. This would then make him feel very stupid etc, and if he isn’t such a good driver he’d be even more nervous to start of with that this type of thing might happen. The girl on the other hand just sits there and watches the ride.

Besides, what chance does the boy get to see how she reacts under stress, if she is a baalas middos. I’m not saying its irrelevant, I’m just supporting Josephs point that it is unfairly balanced.

I think Joseph’s point is that on the shidduch itself it can be harder for the boy than for the girl. He has the stress of driving which is always much worse when there’s someone else in the car, particularly a shiduch. Since he arranged it he mentally takes achrayus for the success of the venue and that she should like it. And the worry that the condition of his car won’t put her off.

It is true the girl also has to worry about how she looks and dresses and what she says, however those are the very things which the whole purpose of the shidduch is to ascertain. If the boy only needed to worry about the main relevant points then it would be like with like. However I hope that the success of the shidduch doesn’t depend on how he drives on a shidduch, so this is secondary, and he has all these zeitige secondary daagos dumped on his head alone. How is a quieter boy supposed to juggle all these things while also maintaining scintillating conversation. A quieter girl doesn’t have to worry about any of these things while on the actual shidduch, and the things she worries about before the shidduch are things which are “the etzem zach”.

I see you posted this under “Controversial Topics”. So what is the other tzad

It’s good to be aware there’s a big difference between “this is the type of chesed I would be good at” and “this is the type of chesed which would make me feel good”. There are plenty of people who would be very good at it who aren’t interested, and plenty people who are desperate for a ‘little brother’ to look up to them but who might not actually be a good mentor/example. Just something to think about

The worries about badly affecting the economy aren’t only financial. When people generally are going through a hard time financially, this leads to resentments which are often taken out on minorities, as people look for a scapegoat. So not only is the bad affect on Britain’s economy important, the bad affect on Europe’s economy is also important.

@flatbusher “the solvent countries would have to use their citizens money to prop up the failing ones”

That only applies to countries which use the euro, not EU countries which don’t have the euro like the UK

@ChaniE “while the EU has a moralistic busybody need to tell everybody how to run their lives”

Why is following regulations made by a goy in the EU worse than being told what to do by a goy in Westminster? Are UK politicians better, do they listen to a vaad of Rabbonim or something

The stuff about long and proud tradition is a load of emotional manipulation by politicians in the leave camp. The question is, will we be better off in or out. What King Henry VIII did and the fact that you’re proud of it is nothing to do with the question