Forum Replies Created
November 5, 2013 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm in reply to: Refusing to give or accept a get #985259
This discussion has branched into some tangents, and that is fine, but I still note that my essential point remains standing. If one spouse sincerely wishes to be divorced while the other spouse sincerely wishes that the marriage continue (and there are no severe factors that gives one the halachic right to demand a divorce such as continual physical abuse, refusal of onah or other valid causes that halachicly entitles the other spouse to a divorce), then halacha (per the Torah and per the cherem) allows the spouse who wishes for the marriage to continue, the authority to remain in that marriage even though the other spouse does not wish to remain in the marriage.
And Rabbeinu Gershom is explicit in this point with his cherem preventing a husband from divorcing his wife who wishes to remain married to him. He gave wives this same right that the Torah always afforded husbands. My second and third posts above expound this point in greater detail and it would be productive to read them before responding.November 5, 2013 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm in reply to: Refusing to give or accept a get #985251
Veltz Meshugener: I’m sorry, I’m not following your point. Indeed Rabbeinu Gershom expresses a preference for dual consent(*). And that is exactly my point. If only one party wishes to divorce, they have no right without the other party consenting to it, as per Rabbeinu Gershom. If one party demands a divorce and the other party wishes to continue remaining married, declining a divorce is both within the letter and the spirit of the law and of Rabbeinu Gershom’s cherem. There is nothing jerky about sincerely exercising your legal rights that are explicitly granted to you for this very reason to exercise. I’ve explained all this in greater detail in my second comment above.
Rabbeinu Gershom specifically gave wives the right to decline to be divorced and to insist on remaining married to her husband. There is no reason she should not exercise this rabbinic right of hers if she sincerely wishes to. And the same vice versa regarding the husband.
(*) I don’t think Torah law does, though.November 5, 2013 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm in reply to: Refusing to give or accept a get #985245
I don’t think my question was well understood and perhaps I wasn’t sufficiently clear. So allow me to rephrase.
1) Torah law always allowed a husband to decide he does not want to give a Get to his wife even if she wants one. 2) Rabbeinu Gershom instituted a rabbinic ordinance giving a wife the same right, namely to decide she wishes to decline accepting a Get that her husband wishes to give her.
So it is established, therefore, that either spouse has the right to decide they do not wish to be divorced and rather wish to remain married. The husband has this right by Torah law and the wife has this right by binding rabbinic ordinance. And this right by definition, obviously, means one spouse wishes to divorce while the other spouse wishes to remain married. And in such a case the spouse that wishes to remain married has that right to remain married (either by Torah law or rabbinic ordinance) despite the other spouse wanting to divorce.
That being the case, when we now hear a case of husband A not wanting to divorce his wife, why do some people insist he is obligated to divorce her per her wishes? As I explained he has the right to decide he wants to remain married to her even if she wants out. And, similarly, in the reverse Rabbeinu Gershom gave her the right to decline accepting a Get if she doesn’t want to be divorced, even if he does. Rabbeinu Gershom didn’t give her that right merely as an academic exercise. He gave her that right to actually exercise if she decides she wants to remain married to him even if he wants out.November 4, 2013 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm in reply to: At what age should girls start dating? #986093
Btw, by the Chareidim in Eretz Yisroel and even by the Chasidim in chutz, that natural setup (husband provider, wife stay-at-home) is still mostly present and their rate of divorce is notably lower.)November 4, 2013 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm in reply to: At what age should girls start dating? #986092
Au contraire. He said that forever wives natually relied on their husband for parnassa. Once that natural barrier was broken and they were conditioned and trained that they had the wherewithal and could “go out on their own”, they no longer had that natural need for their husbands thus greatly multiplying the incidents of divorce.November 4, 2013 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm in reply to: Looking for a ride #985025
omg, midwesterner, and they only realized when he showed up?? How’d that one play out?November 4, 2013 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm in reply to: At what age should girls start dating? #986090
Torah613, why would you insist on being “financially independent to fall back on”? I’m close to a godol b’yisroel and he has said many times in shiurim that making a girl bing financially independent to fall back on is possibly the greatest cause for divorce today.November 4, 2013 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm in reply to: Tznius Inside Your House? #984930
Lol. That must’ve been another story since from the context of our conversation it was obvious he was talking about a still married couple.November 4, 2013 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm in reply to: Tznius Inside Your House? #984928
A godol hador told me he was in someone’s home and was disturbed to see that they hung up their kesuba on the wall. (He didn’t tell me whose home it was.)November 3, 2013 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm in reply to: What time an 18-year-old bachur should be home motzei Shabbos? #985206
It’s 2 AM, do you know where your children are?
Definitely no later than 2:00.November 3, 2013 3:38 am at 3:38 am in reply to: Why are some people so smart? #1043623
Chazal say it shouldn’t be done and the Mechaber paskens it halacha l’maaisa. And see my previous post; in fact sometimes the BYs overstep what they may teach. That would explain the photocopied Gemorahs.November 3, 2013 3:09 am at 3:09 am in reply to: Why are some people so smart? #1043621
writersoul, the Bais Yaakov movement never permitted teaching girls Gemora or anything else that Chazal forbid us to teach them. And not all Gedolim agreed with the BY movement; the Hungarians objected to the teaching of Rashi to girls (and certainly Rambans and Maharals) on the grounds that that constitutes Torah shebal peh. Others said that since Rashi merely explains the pshuto shel mikrah – the simple meaning of the text, it would be considered Torah shebiksav in this sense. However, even the Litvishe Gedolim have mentioned that the BY movement has often overstepped their bounds in the emphasis on Meforshim, sometimes crossing the line into things that may not be learned. Rav Shach zt’l writes in one of his letters that teaching girls Meforshim in depth would be assur because of this, (the problem is quantifying “in depth”, which makes it easy to rationalize) and when a couple of seminary girls came to him to ask him to explain a Ramban or something to them, he replied that they should better spend their time delving into domestic arts.November 3, 2013 2:52 am at 2:52 am in reply to: Help! I let my wife into the kitchen! #984866
Torah613: Popa wears the pants in his house.November 1, 2013 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm in reply to: Why are some people so smart? #1043615
yitayningwut, rf’s point is perfectly reasonable. Men and women have different needs and expectations, as they should, when it comes to Torah study as well as most other things. The Gemora says a woman’s schar Torah comes from her husband and sons learning that she supports. Her role is supporter not scholar. Just as in the military the guys who manufacture the weaponry safely on the homefront are just as critical to the war effort as the guys on the frontlines. Without the guys behind the scenes the battle cannot be won. Different people have different roles and oftentimes those roles are defined by halacha itself. A Yisroel cannot do a Cohen’s job, as much as he might like to and as much as he might be capable of doing it. He must be satisfied with his own role in Avodas Hashem as it is defined for him not as he might have liked it to be.November 1, 2013 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm in reply to: Goodbye Coffee Room! #985029
Thank you the-art-of-moi for pointing out this hazard and for reducing the risk of it for yourself by walking away from it so as not to get burnt by it. Playing with fire is not safe. Have a wonderful Shabbos and may you continue to grow and prosper in Torah, Yiras Shamayim and Emunah Peshuta.November 1, 2013 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm in reply to: Goodbye Coffee Room! #985028
I think the OPs first paragraph, especially her second and third sentences, are well worth reading an rereading and duly noting, considering and acting upon. She surely is not the only one tested with such an endeavor here. Mitigation of this danger by duly changing the moderation of this place should be implemented forthwith.
It also must serve as a warning as to the extreme dangers of the internet overall. Many previously frum people have r’l fallen to the depths never to recover from this exact pitfall.
Redleg, you’re mixing up Catholic worshiping on two knees, which is their typical way of worship, and their separate and distinct (and much less frequent) rite of genuflecting on one knee, which is where this one knee idea comes from (for the past 500+ years.) Muslims do it on two knees not one. And we don’t do it on one knee on Yom Kippur.
For the past over 500 years it has only been practiced in Roman Catholicism. And wherever it is done nowadays, including in marriage proposals, it came about there as an offshoot from the Catholic practice.
It is a specifically Christian thing to do. No other religion does it and the entire idea came into existence through it being a Christian church rite. That church rite made it to be considered a sign of respect and that rite is how and the reason it came to be used in marriage proposals. Research how proposing on one knee came about. Almost all the articles on it, including the wikipedia article called “marriage proposal”, reference genuflection. What other time do you know of that people davka get on one knee to do something as a sign of respect?October 29, 2013 4:37 am at 4:37 am in reply to: What to look for in a shidduch #983768
Chazal say that two of the most important qualities to look for is a bas talmid chochom and baalas middos. Another very important quality is that she can cook well.
The christian practice is to get on one knee, not two knees. So it is like their practice.