Forum Replies Created
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Posts
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To the group
The moshol of Yaakov’s ladder is fundamental. Even though our Patriarch’s face is on the Kisei Hakovod the ladder was planted on the ground meaning he was grounded in normalcy. Rabbi Moshe Tendler spoke about his father in law and syressed how normal he was. Rabbi Butman, on jis radio program, regularly says that when Moshiach comes there won’t be any more Shnayim Ochzin Bitalis. Rather we’ll only have the Kabbalistic meaning of the Gemara. Thos attitude explains why Lubavichers don’t care what Rambam or the Gemara says. They think we’re in a new era where Kabbalah reigns.
To CS
You misunderstood what I meant about Rabbi Zajac. Qe don’t know each other. If I get stuck on a point in the Gemara I liaten to him online and he usually clarifies it for me. When it comes to Hashkafah and Halacha I have plenty of mainstream Rabbis to rely on
To DaMoshe
You were Michavin to what I was thinking. Yes Joe Namath is Moshiach. He predicted the Jets would win the Super Bowl in 1969. Now we have to trace his lineage to Dovid Hamelech. Hey you never know
Edited
To the group
I asked CS to give an example of my having spread Loshon hora. She answered that I accepted the lie that the Rebbe is god. The problem is that the Lubavichers in a different thread said that the Rebbe announced in 1962 that he’s god clothed in human form. So I’ve spoken Lishon hora by repeating what the Rebbe said about himself.
To yb
I don’t think Coffee waa making light of the Chabad belief in a aecond coming rather he was pointing out how odious is such a suvgestion. More than a decade ago Shmuely Boteach was on Zev Brenner’s program and Zev asked him if he thought the Rebbe was Moshiach. Boteach answered, “The Rebbe is the greatest influence in my life, but he can’t be Moshiach because Judaism flatly rejects any suggestion of a second coming.”
To CS
Still waiting for your proof(s) that I’ve used Koshon Hora.
Edited
To CS
You imputed that I’m not familiar with the concept of a Sichah and that’s why I reject it. Since I’ve been davening in a Chabad shul for years I’d have to be retarded not to be aware of the Rebbe’s sichos. IMHO a sichah is the Rebbe making something up which is at odds with our accepted trsditions and then using his encyclopedic knowledge to produce supporting evidence(of course I don’t mean that everything he said was a lie just as I accept most but not all of Rabbi Miller’s Torah).The problem is that you take this one step further and invent “the three stage process” and then convince yourself that it’s true. Where are your sources?
To the group
This thread should be renamed, “As CS changes the subject”
As I told Menachem Shmei on numerous occasions,”If you can’t or won’t answer a question it’s checkmate.”To DaMoshe
Just a desperate ploy by CS who senses that her cause is lost. We recognize Reb Chaim’s greatness in Torah but no one suggests he’s Moshiach and certaimly not god.
To CT
Your silence is deafening.
To yb
There’s no point trying to get through to Lubavichers. While I for one will acknowledge the Rebbe’s genius etc no Lubavicher will ever admit that any point we make has validity.
To CS
You accused me of writing Loshon hora. Please present tangible example(s) of Halachic Loshon hora that I wrote.
To CS
“The Rebbe wasn’t trying to prove anything to anyone.” Exactly and, in fact, he never proved anything to anyone and that’s why maimstream Judaism rejects all of Chabad’s ridiculous assertions.
To ARSo
I assure you that I am in full control of my senses. The reason for the typos is that my computer broke and I’m writing from my phone. I apologize for the errors but the points are still relatively clear.
To CT
Still waiting for your answer. Remember we’re not in secular court where lawyers use their shenanigans to win. We are in Hashem’s court and it’s all about the truth.
Edited
To CS
I should have made my point more clearly. Hashem gave Moshe signs that had been passed down from Yaakov and Yosef. He brought those signs to the Gedolei Hador and they recognized him as the Goel Tzedek. The Rebbe made up signs that he gave to his followers. If the Rebbe actually had communication with Hashem then he should have gone yo the Gedolim to get Haskamah. It’s quite obvious why he didm’t choose that tack, edited
To CT
Do you agree that those Lubavichers who do espouse what I enimerated are not practicing Judaism?
Second after the tunnel story Zev.Brenner interviewed a number of Lubavichers. Zev mentioned that there’s a dospute between the Mesjichistas and mormal Jews. One Lubavicher told him that 99.99 percent of Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach but many lie and deny it to fool mainstream Kews imtp thinking tbey’re normal. You can find the program on line and hear what the guy said.To CS
The Gemara in Cheilek quotes Rav Simai who said that the final redemption will replicate Yetzias Mitzrayim Just as in the former only 2 of 600k left Egypt and entered EY so too at the final redemption only one of 300k will be redeemed. The Rebbe rejected this as I’m sure you know.
To CS
Very convincing. You offer as proof that Nevuah can come before Moshiach arrives from a Sichah of the Rebbe. So again you’re using circular logic. We know the Rebbe is a Novi becahse he said he’s a Novi. And we know the Rebbe is Moshuach because the Rebbe said he’s Moshiach. When Hasjem sent Moshe initially he asked Hashem to give him a sign that the elders would accept that he was sent by G-d. If Hasjem spoke to the Rebbe he wpd have given him a similaf sign. But of course he had no such sign. Therefore I’ll reiterate rhere is no proof for any of Chabad’s preposterous claims other than the fact that you trust whatever the Rebbe said. As for your comments I don’t recall praising the Rebbe’s Torah but he certainly had amazing Yediyah’s on Rashi. This said he also rejected explicitly Gemaras in favor of his ideas and that’s unconscionable
To CS
I will not address any comment you make until you answer my challenge. Provide evidence that the Rebbe was a Novi otber than,”Because he said he is.”
To CT
I object your assertion that it’s my opinion that Chabad is not a valid expression of Judaism. I have rock solid arguments. Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe was a Novi. They beliwve that he ran/runs the world. They believe that he is/ was god clothed in human form.They believe he is/was Moahiach. Moerover you presented no legitimate arguments to support the notion that Chabad is simply a variant of Judaism. All you said is that Chabad doesany nice things and provides essential services. I agree with that statwment but the issue is with their belief system.
To CS
Have you found time in your busy schedule to answer my question. Until you do it’s checkmate.
To DaMoshe
There was a popular book “Men are from Mars, women are from Venus.” We should adapt that, “Normal Jews are from earth, Lubavichets are from Atzilus (yechida)
To ctlawyer
Lubavichers are Jews but their religion is ‘t Judaism
To CS
You are avoiding the question which stands at the heart of this discussion. Your entire religion is based on the belief that Hashem spoke to the Rebbe as he communicated with Moshe Rabbeinu. You like to cite esoteric Torah but I live in the realm of Gemara. There is a Chazakah established by the Gemara that Nevuah will not return until Moshiach’s arrival. Lubavichers want to posit that the Rebbe is an(the) exception. According to the principle of Hamotzi Meichaveiro you must prove tbat the Rebbe is was a Novi.
To CS
You hit the nail on the head today. If it were true that Hashem communicated with the Rebbe as he did with Moshe then no one would challenge the statements co.i v out of CH. But the Rebbe dod not speak to Hashem. It’s as simple as that. As for your statement that the claim that the Rebbe is god clothed in human form is slander. Sorry, Dr. Berger quoted 8 leading rabbis from OHolei Torah who all agreed that the Rebbe is god clothed in human form You can be sure that Dr. Berger didn’t make it up. Finallg do you agree with Rabbi Cunin that the Rebbe runs the world and he will take us out of Golus.
To CS
Let me clarify why your comparison of the Rebbe to Moshe is specious. Moshe accepted his missions because Hashem spoke to him. In the case of the Rebbe he decided that he’s in charge. Rabbi Shlomo Cunin announced in 2008 that the Rebbe runs the world. Several Lubavichers on VIN and YWN have endorsed this by positing that the Rebbe decreed that he’s taking over and Hashem stepped aside.
To CS
You don’t understand the Torah’s view of humility. Being humble doezn’t mean refusing to do what Hashem wants because you feel unworthy. Being humble means that a person accomplishes a tremendous amount but he recognizes that it’s all thanks to Hashem In 1951 the Rebbe announced he’s Moshiach. In 1962 he announced he’s god. If you think that’s humility maybe you should put away your Zohar and get a dictionary. And don’t deny that he said those things because Menache. sh.ei and Sechel 83 said that in a different thread last year.
To Sechel83
I already read the kuntrus and I’m way ahead of you. I bought my yechi yarmulka. In fact I paid ten dollars extra and had them insert Boreinu.
To yankel berel
What took you so long? It’s great that you’re back in the game. I will never forget how you defended me against the mob because I was guilty of a sin equal to AZ, Gilui Arayos and murder watching TV. Obviously we can’t save Chabad. The only hope is for someone like YY Jacobson to speak out but he’s toobusy saving us from NK
To the group
The Gemara says that there were three great people Dovid, Avraham and Moshe. Dovid called himself a worm. Avraham said he’s dirt and ashes. Moshe was the greatest, he said he’s nothing. What did the Rebbe say about himself? I’m the Gadol Hador. Compare the Rebbe to Moshe Rabbeinu? I don’t think so.
To CS
I appreciate the fact that you respond to my comments in a non-confrontational manner. I also appreciate that you understand that none of your beliefs resonate at all with non-Lubavichers. You think that we’ve failed the test by not accepting your false Messiah, but you will have a much greater test which is to accept the real one. As for the comparison of the Rebbe and Moshe Rabbeinu. No human being who has ever lived can be compared to the greatest man the world has ever known.
To DaMoshe
Your story was beautiful and illustrates that the only thing that matters to Hashem is the Torah. To that point I’d like to share the following. I learn Gemara using Artscroll. Occasionally I get stuck so I go online for help. My main source is Rabbi Avraham Zajac Chabad of La Cienega CA. He’s a giant Tal.id Chacham and a tremendous Baal Masbir. If Lubavichers would devote their time to legitimate Torah study instead of twisting Chazal to prove that yhe Rebbe is Moshiach they would discover what our religion is all about.
To the group
After a rather lengthy hiatus Menachem Shmei decides to weivh in. He has nothing substantive to say so he tries to make light of tbe criticisms directed as his dubious brand of Judaism. But sorry, no one is buying it. This has been a very productive thread becauae there have been many contributors. We are all united Chabad is not Judaism.
To the group
It’s worth noting that Chabad routinely refers to the Rebbe as the Moshe Rabbeinu Hador. Moshe shunned every honor. When Hashem told him to redeem Israel he begged that Aaron be theessenger. In contrast the Rebbe tried to convince his followers that he’s Moshiach.
To LitvisheFellow
Your point is well taken but it’s lost on the Lubavichers in this thread who have taken leave of their senses. My opprobrium is directed at peopleike YY Jacobson who know better but refuse to speak out because they don’t want to run afoul of the powwrs that run CH.
To the group
Thanks to CS I now understand the Chabad position. For a year Lubavichers pressured the Rebbe to accept the Nesius until he finally relented. They started pressuring him to announce that he’s Moshiach in 1965. Finally in 1991 he agreed to accept the position. Telling Lubavichers about Rambam doesn’t register because they believe that whatever the Rebbe wants he gets because of Tzaddik Gozeir.
To the group
CS has clarified the Chabad position. In 1991 a delegation of Lubavichers approached the Rebbe and asked him to accept the Meashichas. He smiled which indicated his assent. At that point he became Moshiach and in seven years he’ll come back to life to declare himself Moshiach for all the Jews.
To Always
You’re wasting your time asking a seaonable question to someone who’s irrational. CS believes that the Rebbe is already functioning as Moshiach despite the fact that he’s buried in Queens. I’m waiting for CS to compare the Rebbe to Dovid Hamelech whose kingship wasn’t accepted for the first 7 years. But there were at least two important differences. First, Hashem told a Novi to anoint David. Second Dovid was alive.To CS
So you’re saying that the Rebbe has been functioning as Moshiach for the last 33 years. The first three years he was alive and the last 30 as a dead Moshiach. So this will go on for another 7 years at which point he will be revealed as Moshiach for all the world. What will you say if year 40 comes and goes and he”s still interred?
To CS
So the Rebbe’s initial revelation was in 5751. Funny, that no real Jew knows about it. Must have been a private party. But let’s get “serious.” In seven yrars 40 years will have passed. Will you give up your belief at that time or willyou find some other Chazal to distort?To CS
ARSo is absolutely right. Lubavichers who believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach do so because you understand that he said he is. As I told sechel83 anyone who claims he’s Moshiach is not all there. The Chazal you cite to prove this lie doesn’t convince any Torah Jew. As Litvish fellow said. Just devote your life to Torah and Mitzvos and let Hashem take care of sendimg Moshiach.
To CS
You just said that you spend your time educating frum people who are Jewishly uneducated. By definition those pe.ople aren’t frum.
To CS
“The Rashi in Daniel says that Moshiach will be concealed over forty years after his initial revelation.” When did the Rebbe have his initial revelation as Moshiach
To sechel83
You asked me a simple question, “If someone says he’s Moshiach how would I know to believe him or not?” I answered that no person has the right to say that he’s Moshiach and if he does he should be put in a mental institution. ARSo just explained Rambam’s criteria for being Moshiach. If he accomplijshes all those things he ‘s Moshiach. It’s very simple edited
To sechel83
You ask, “If someone comes and says he’s Moshiach how will you know to believe him or not? If someone says he’s Moshiach he belongs in a mental hospital. The person who will be accepted as Moshiach will have fulfilled all of Rambam’s criteria. Thanks for your excellent question. Sadly no Lubavicher answers my questions.To Common
You”re right that Chabad needs a living Rebbe, but that Rebbe must explain to the Chassidim that the deification of the Rebbe must end. The person who could do this is Rabbi Shaul Shimon Deutch but he was driven out of CH for saying the Rebbe isn’t Moshiach.
Absolutely. In December of 2008, Rabbi Shlomo Cunin declared that the Rebbe runs the world and he will take us out of Golus. He should have been removed from his position, but nothing, as far as I know was done.
To kuvult
You write beautfully and logically, but logic is lost edited. I will challenge you on one point. The Baal Shem predated the Enlightenment. His goal, in spreading Chassidus, was making the Tehilim Yid feel that his Avodas Hashem was also a valid expression of Yiddishkeit.
To the group
It’s worth noting that YY Jacobson made it a point to publicly attack NK has been silent with regard to the hooligans. No Lubavichers in positions of authority will ever speak out against inzirrer.To the group
Let’s examine sechel’s latest. He quotes Rambam, “If a king will arise from the House of David.” The Rebbe wasn’t and isn’t a king. “who will compel all of Israel to walk in the way of the Torah” The overwhelming majority of Jews have no connection to the Torah. I could go on, but you get the point.
To the group
What’s interesting is that the Lubavichers don’t ask tbe counter question, “If the Rebbe is Moshiach will you(non Lubavichers) accept him? Obviously they know the answer. Torah Jews will accept, as Moshiach the person who meets Rambam’s criteria.To coffee addict
Your argument is solid but I think there is validity to the question. When lostspark flatly says no that means that even if Moshiach is anointed and does everything that Rambam codified he qon’t care. Those who answered yes are reasonable to some degree and so there might be hope for them.The question that started this thread implies that a Chassidus is viable if it has a Rebbe. This, in itself, must be questioned, because it depends on the Rebbe In the case of Chabad, the Rebbe convinced his followers to become obsessed with his belief that he was(is) Moshiach, and this informs their very existence. On the other hand, if you had a Rebbe, like the Sfas Emes(my favorite) who made Torah study the sine qua non of life, I think the movement could go on quite well without a Rebbe.
Edited
To sechel83
Who ever said that they teach Hashem’s 42-letter name in Chabad Yeshivos?To sechel83
“I wrote kabala or chassidus”. Wrong you said thatArizal said that one who doesnt learn Chassidus or Kabbala his Torah is Sam Hamaves. When I called you out for being an inveterate liar you changed your story.