qwerty613

To Shimon Katz

Can I find an Elokista? Sure. Rabbi Shlomo Cunin who definitively stated that the Rebbe runs the world and “HE” will take us out of Golus. Actually, many, if not most, Lubavichers agree that the Rebbe and not Hashem runs the world. I’ll share a story. A few years ago, I was in the Sukkah of the Chabad shul I attend. Two guys had the following exchange, “Everything we have in our lives comes from the Rebbe.” The other one responded, “Of course. We live in the shadow of the Rebbe.” These fellows were stam Russian Mechallels when they came to the shul and the Rabbis don’t intentionally brainwash them into believing that the rebbe is you know what, but they pick it up by osmosis. The rabbis never mention Hashem; everything is the Rebbe so what conclusion should they draw?

To Shimon Katz

You made some points that I would like to address. About 30 years ago I mentioned Rabbi Deutsch to a Chabad Rabbi, after spending a Shabbos in his community in Boro Park. He dismissed him as follows, “That nut wanted to be the new Rebbe.” I didn’t pursue the matter because I wouldn’t trust anything that he said. Would you like to relate the actual story? Second, the Elokistim don’t concern me as much as the Friedmanistim. A few weeks ago, a Lubavich woman on VIN excused all lost Jews by stating, “they’re confused because of the long, bitter Golus.” Manis Friedman has no right or power to give any Jew a pass. I wouldn’t call him because I heard him being interviewed by Rabbi Efren Goldberg and he came off as an arrogant jerk repeating the Kefirah that Mitzvahs aren’t commandments. They’re just nice things that we should do to fulfill G-d’s needs. Only Hashem can decide who is a Tinok Shenishba. Those who aren’t will be duly punished no matter what Chabad wants to believe. The bigger problem is the Chabad lie propagated by the Rebbe that every Jew will be redeemed by Moshiach. That flies in the face of an open Gemara. Again, this is Chabad usurping Hashem’s power to judge. Finally, if it’s true that Rabbi Deutsch wanted to start a breakaway movement why would that be a problem? It’s no different than what’s happened to so many other Chassidic groups. Anyway, I’m glad you’re back, because you’re a Mensch.

To Shimon Katz

As to your contention that Chabad invented Kiruv in America, that’s not something worth arguing about, so if it will make you happy, I’ll concede that point. On the other hand, it’s totally disingenuous for you to claim that the present form of Chabad is simply a continuation of the Rayatz’ work. As Rabbi Herschel Schachter said, when he was interviewed by Dovid Lichtenstein, “Many Lubavichers daven to the Rebbe instead of to Hashem and this is Avodah Zarah.” This was not true under the Rayatz. Nor did we have a Manis Friedman stating that Mitzvahs are optional and that no Jew can be punished today no matter what sin he commits. Yedl acknowledged that there are serious issues in CH, and he’s quite aware of what’s going on. On a personal note, I appreciate what you did for me in helping to eliminate YYA from this thread, but if you shill for Chabad, I will challenge you.

To aaq

You’re missing the point. Chabad like to brag that they invented Kiruv and mainstream Kiruv developed because they were copying what Chabad was doing. The facts don’t justify their conclusion since NCSY preceded the first Chabad house by 15 years. You’re suggesting that there were individual Lubavichers who were doing kiruv before 1969. That’s certainly possible, but there’s no reason to assume that there was no mainstream Kiruv before 1954. Yankel Berel and I are simply challenging Chabad’s assertion.

To somejewiknow

I was simply responding to your point. Rav Herschel Schachter and Rav Mordechai Willig are two of the great leaders of Modern Orthodoxy and they have never, Chas Vsholom, endorsed any deviation in Halacha or in our tradition. If there are individuals who are calling themselves Modern Orthodox who are violating Halacha, this is not a reflection of Modern Orthodoxy, just as an individual Chassid who’s convicted of some white-collar crime doesn’t prove that all Chassidim are thieves.

To yedl

Since you agree that there are issues within Chabad, we’re good. It’s not necessary for us to be perfectly aligned. My beef has always been with the YYA’s of the world who refuse to acknowledge that there’s anything wrong with Chabad and use any type of deceitful tactics to win the day.

To yedl

Have you ever met a Lubavicher who thinks the Rebbe was a Novi? You certainly have, because all who think the Rebbe is Moshiach also think he’s a Novi. To believe that the Rebbe is a Novi runs counter to our Mesorah. But that obviously doesn’t bother you because you think that the Rebbe has the right to countermand the Torah. And what about those who believe he’s still alive? Do you want to try to convince us that there’s only two or three people like that? You can continue spreading the blarney that there’s just a few crazies who give Chabad a bad name, but no one’s buying that. When Schneerson died the Meshichistas emerged. Mainstream Jewry was assured that they comprise only a small handful. Obviously, they were lying. Those who challenge Chabad know what we’re talking about and so your lame arguments won’t dissuade us. Since you seem to be connected, it would behoove you to get a movement started to depose the Rebbe and return Chabad to what it used to be, a very viable Chassidus.

To the group

Such rhetoric is commonplace. Self-hating Jews are called Kapos as an example. I agree that words shouldn’t be used loosely lest they impart the wrong message.

To yedl

The first claim may not be Kefirah, but it violates the principle of Al Tifrosh Min Hatzibbur. No Jew outside of Chabad believes the Rebbe was, is or will be Moshiach, yet the overwhelming majority of Lubavichers do believe it. That’s a problem. To believe the Rebbe is a Novi is Kefirah, but all the Lubavichers who accept that the Rebbe is Moshiach do so because they believe that Hashem anointed the Rebbe when he was three years old. As for the last two claims, you argue that only mentally unstable Lubavichers believe that. Well, Rabbi Shlomo Cunin is the head of Chabad of California and he stated that the Rebbe runs the world and “HE” will take us out of Golus. I’ll agree with you that he’s insane, but why hasn’t he been removed or censured? Finally, we have the belief that the Rebbe is god clothed in human form. About ten years ago a Lubavich Rabbi with whom I’m friendly asked me if I had read Dr. Berger’s book. When I told him yes he asked me to pick out a particular point. I told him that Dr. Berger said that 8 senior Rabbis from Oholei Torah declared that the Rebbe was god clothed in human form. My friend responded, “So what’s wrong with that? I can prove it.” He then explained as follows: We know that every Jew has a spark of Elokus, and Rashi said that Moshe Rabbeinu was equal to all the Jews so that means that he had the sparks of Elokus of all 600,000 Jews. Now the Rebbe is the Moshe Rabbeinu of our generation and so he has the sparks of every Jew who ever lived and this equals Hashem. I can assure you that this fellow isn’t crazy. When the Lubavichers are together they invent these insane ideas to justify their deification of the Rebbe. If you can honestly say that you have no issues with the Chabad belief system then you have a much bigger problem than somejewiknow.

To DovidBT

There are no questions about Chabad’s Mitzvah performance. That’s impeccable. The problem is the belief system that they’re espousing. It’s a major concern to say the Rebbe is Moshiach, that he’s a Novi, that he runs the world and that he’s god clothed in human form.

To yedl

I apologize for calling you a liar. I would argue that you have no basis upon which to posit that Manis doesn’t mean what he said. He was interviewed by Rabbi Efren Goldberg who challenged him on his statement that Mitzvahs are optional and he refused to recant. I’m impressed that both you and DovidBT have continued the discussion. Generally those who defend Chabad offer one argument and when it’s refuted they disappear.

To the group

About a week ago yedl stated that those who blame the Rebbe for Chabad’s deviation from Torah true Judaism are “consistent.” He implied that we’re consistently wrong, but he’s correct, we are consistent, because when you tell the truth you don’t have to check your facts. In contrast, the Chabad apologists can’t get their stories straight. Yedl conceded that Manis Friedman did make these heretical statements, but then he tried to excuse it by saying he didn’t mean them. But DovidBT posited that no Chabad Rabbi ever said that Mitzvahs are optional. They really should read each other’s posts before formulating their lies. So why can’t (won’t) the Chabad shills admit the truth, that Chabad is great, but, at the same time, it’s an invalid expression of Judaism? Because it’s very difficult for people to come to grips with truth that goes against personal biases. Yedl said that he’s frum today because of Chabad. That’s wonderful. but it’s no reason not to be Modeh Al Haemes. As for AAQ, since that fool has nothing to add to the discussion. he plays the Qwerty is crazy card. That and a token (or Metrocard) won’t get you very far today.

To the group

Let me share a story. A good number of years ago I met Rabbi Eliezer Ginsburg shlita in Flatbush. He didn’t know who I was but he gave me a Sholom Aleichem. I responded, “I bought your Haggada a few years ago and I use it at my Seder every year.” He began to gush over me, “Thank you so much. This means so much to me.” Rabbi Ginsburg didn’t need my Haskama, but a kind word goes a long way. Unfortunately, most people who post on line like to insult others. They invent Heterim by arguing that it’s all anonymous. What they’ll discover is that Hashem is all knowing so why not offer encouragement? It doesn’t cost anything.

To the group

Jerry Seinfeld had a great joke, “Imagine that there were aliens who came down from “Yenimsvelt” and were observing humans. They’d see dogs relieving themselves and some person picking up for them. Who do you think they’d think is the master?” I thought of this when looking at this thread. If Hitler was alive and was reading it, he would be in Heaven thinking that Jews hate themselves as much as he hates us. How can someone be an Orthodox Jew and not have any basic sense of Menschlichkeit? The NK supporters hate any Jew who they perceive as a Zionist, even if that person is far removed from the Zionist credo. On the other hand, there are frum Jews who have taken it upon themselves to ridicule accepted Gedolim because they take exception with their views. There are certain basic ground rules that must be followed. I haven’t joined in this thread because it’s a Chillul Hashem to say the least.

To yedl

I appreciate the fact that you have responded to my posts. This shows menschlichkeit but it doesn’t mean that I’m going to give you a pass for what you wrote. You claim that Manis doesn’t mean what he said. Rabbi Miller said, “When a person says something he means it.” We don’t dismiss Mamdani who spoke of globalizing the intifada. Moreover, a few weeks ago there was a thread on VIN which discussed a certain Jewish lowlife (his name escapes me.) As you can imagine, several people pilloried this individual, but then this Lubavich woman excused him as being confused because of the long, bitter Golus. Where do you think she got that from? Not satisfied, I’ll go one better. Manis also said that Mitzvohs are optional. He challenged the definition of Mitzvah as commandment and said that the Mitzvahs we do fulfill G-d’s needs. He was challenged by Rabbi Efren Goldberg on this point, and he refused to back down. So, with all due respect, you have no basis to claim that Manis doesn’t mean the Kefirah that he spouts. By stating that I’m obsessed with Manis you’re implying that I’m unhinged. Nothing could be further from the truth. And when Shlomo Cunin says that the Rebbe runs the world, he also means it Kipshuto. It’s time for people to face the facts about Chabad. While they do much good, their belief system doesn’t jibe with our Mesorah.

To yedl

You ask me to define the word frum, so I’ll do my best. Chazal teach that Hashem and the Torah are one. This means many things but among them is that just as Hashem is indivisible so is the Torah. One cannot say that he believes in Hashem and in the Rebbe, as many Lubavichers do, so too one cannot say that he’ll keep those Mitzvohs that are to his liking. Does that mean that every frum Jew keeps the Torah perfectly? Certainly not. But, for example, if someone spoke Loshon Hora and then he said, “I’ll have to be more careful the next time, he demonstrates that he accepts the Mitzvoh in principle and so he would still qualify as frum. As to your point that it’s Chabad’s approach to take it one Mitzvoh at a time. I have no problem with that. What I take exception to is the propaganda that Chabad is Mikarev Yidden all over the world. Putting on Tefilin on a 90-year-old Mechallel isn’t Kiruv. It’s not a bad thing to do, perhaps, in that merit he’ll get Olam Habo, but it’s deceptive to claim that this is Kiruv.

Now that I’ve answered your questions, would you care to answer mine? Rabbi Manis Friedman has stated that no Jew today can be punished because of the long, bitter Golus? Do you agree with him? He also said that Mitzvahs are optional and we keep them because G-d has needs. Do you also agree with that statement?

To anon1m0us

I loved your point, but this isn’t reserved for those who post on line. People generally learn to convince themselves that their position is correct. To that end they latch on to a Chazal and reject any equally valid statements which differ with their Chazal.

To Square_Root

You’re right that Chabad won’t listen but it isn’t Chabad that we have to reach, it’s the non-Lubavichers who defend them . I hope that proud sefaradi is going to make them think

To Proud Sefaradi

A blessing on your head for your wonderful post. Hopefully, the Chabad apologists will have something to think about.

To capcom63

I am stridently anti-Lubavich but I readily acknowledge the good that it does. Are you willing to discuss the issues that have been raised about Chabad?

To yankel berel

Whether it’s YYA or AAQ or Shimon Katz, there’s one constant, a blanket refusal to discuss the facts. I’d like to focus on Shimon Katz, because he’s basically a Mensch. Mr. Katz acknowledges the issues with Chabad but chooses not to get into the fray because his only concern is with the Rebbe’s teachings, which he holds in the highest regard. I learn, using Artscroll Gemaras. When I’m stuck on a point, which happens on occasion, I go to this Lubavicher named Rabbi Zajac. He’s an outstanding Baal Masbir. Do I care if he believes the Rebbe is Moshiach? Not in the least. Do I care if he thinks the Rebbe was/is a Novi? Not at all. I don’t understand why Mr. Katz can’t continue learning the Rebbe’s Torah if he discovers that the things we’re saying about him are true. I grew up idolizing John Lennon. As I got older I learned that he was a lowlife. It didn’t make the slightest difference to me, because I’m only interested in his music. Would you care to comment?

To yankel berel

You’re wasting time dealing with AAQ.

To E120

You made a very generic statement about Chabad beliefs. Would you care to share what you think are those beliefs? Since I Daven in a Chabad shul. I see first hand how Chabad interacts with its minions. I’ll share this story. A few years ago, the first day of Sukkos came out on a Sunday night. It rained all day Sunday and it looked like eating on a Sukkah would be a washout for the first night. As it turned out the rain let up enough so that we could eat in the Sukkah, although it was drizzling. A guy sitting next to me said, “Thank you Hashem for stopping the rain so we can have the Mitzvah of eating in the Sukkah. One of the Chabd Rabbis overheard him and said, “That wasn’t Hashem, it was the Rebbe who made the rain stop.” Immediately another fellow in the Sukkah said, “Everything we have in our lives comes from the Rebbe. “And his friend added, “We live in the shadow of the Rebbe.” Would you care to comment?

To yankel berel

I was just making the point the Rebbe took ideas from the Nazis and the Communists. In no way am I equating Chabad with either of those two monstrous regimes.

To akuperma

I guess the only solution is that we all convert to Islam. Yes I’m kidding. The Gemara warned that the situation will be very frightening at the time of Moshiach’s arrival. Perhaps this is what we’re now experiencing.

To Yankel Berel and mdd1

Since your comments mirror each other I I’ll address them concurrently. SQUARE _ROOT said that Lubavichers think that they’re better than all other Jews. That’s factually true. Twenty years ago I attended a YI which had a Chabad Rabbi. He’s the one who said that the Rebbe is the reason the world was created. At the time his oldest daughter was ten years old. I asked him how he’d react if she fell in love with someone from Lakewood who learns. He told me that it’s a stupid question because Chabad is the highest form of Jew. I know an ex-Lubavicher who married a mainstream Jew. She told me that in school she was constantly told that Lubavichers are better than all other Jews. The fact that Chabad accepts all Jews into their club doesn’t negate the fact that Chabad thinks of themselves as the true representative of Judaism.

Now let’s look at the Hitler factor. Rabbi Sacks said that the Rebbe studied Hitler and said that the yms wanted to kill every Jew, I’ll save every Jew. That statement itself is troublesome as it’s an indication of his hubris. The Vilna Gaon said that everything one says is a lie. I don’t believe that the Rebbe’s real reason for building his Chabad Houses was to save Jews. I think he did so to fulfill his dream of global domination as Dr. Berger said. And I believe that he studied how Hitler taught his people that they are the Master Race and he similarly taught his Chassidim that they are better than all other Jews.

I thank you for challenging my statement but I stand by it. I would love to discuss this further and if you can refute me I will certainly recant my position.

To Yankel Berel

I want to expand on your last post. Rabbi Chaim Miller wrote a respected translation of the Tanya. In the introduction he talks about the fighting between Chassidim and Misnagdim. He quoted the Baal Hatanya as saying that because of the vitriol of the Gaon, the blood of Chassidim flowed like water. There are several problems with that statement. First,cthe Gaon was 52 at the time and the undisputed Gadol Hador. The Alter Rebbe was only 27. He would never dare attack such a giant. Second, no Jews were actually killed during that contretemps. Third, if Chassidim would have been killed you can be sure that Misnagdim would have also died. Jews don’t turn the other cheek. I mentioned these points to my Rav, Rabbi Moshe Plutchok and he told me about the Kherson forgeries. Lubavichers forged letters and attributed them to the Baal Hatanya. This was to keep the war going. As an example when the Baal Hatanya came out of prison he ended up in the home of a Misnagid named Notkin. He said that the few hours he spent with Notkin were worse than the entire time he was imprisoned. Number one, that’s ridiculous. Second, it’s Loshon Hora and the Baal Hatanya would never intentionally sin. I’m amazed that Shimon Katz, who’s a very good Jew supports a religion of liars.

To SQUARE_ROOT

I’d like to address your last three points. First, the Shulchan Aruch of the Baal Hatanya is totally Kosher and shouldn’t be challenged. Second, you’re absolutely right that Lubavichers are taught that they are the “Master Race of Judaism.” As Rabbi Sacks ZTL said, “The Rebbe studied Hitler and said that he would save every Jew to counter what that maniac did.” That’s not the only thing that Schneersohn learned from Hitler. He also learned how to take control of the minds of all his Chassidim. Finally, you said that Chabad has the hidden agenda to convert real Jews to their false religion. It’s not a hidden agenda. On Monday night Chabad held a major farbrengin in Lakewood in honor of Yud Tes Kislev. They’re crazy enough to think that they can take control of that bastion of Torah because they think the Rebbe runs the world. Tonight they’re staging another Yud Tes celebration in the Altneu Synagogue on the Upper East Side. The Baal Tefillah of the shul is Chabad so he probably arranged it. They play the “we accept every Jew” card and people think their religion is a valid representation of Judaism.