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Thanks for the clarification Avira. Most of what I know about Chabad is experiential. I live in an area where many Chabad rabbis function and so I study(spy on) them. I appreciate someone like yourself who likely has more factual knowledge on the subject. I think these two approaches complement each other quite nicely. BTW, Seichel 83 and Menachem Shmei are still on the clock, but I doubt they’ll answer my questions. I know how to checkmate Lubavichers. I do it all the time in my neighborhood. Surprisingly, I get along quite well with them, except for one who’s particularly militant against mainstream Orthodoxy.
To Jude
I didn’t say that Lubavich was the first to do Kiruv. I simply asked Neville CB to elaborate on his statement that Kiruv originated from the Yeshivah world. As for your statement that Chabad disavows those BT’s who choose mainstream Judaism you’re absolutely right as this story will demonstrate. About ten years ago an old man in the shul I was attending passed away on a Friday. On Shabbos, I saw a nonobservant friend talking on the phone with the deceased’s daughter helping her make the funeral arrangements. Sunday night I came to that Shul and was told that I missed a beautiful service since the deceased’s grandson spoke and he was a Rabbi. I was baffled so I spoke to the Shul’s Chabad Rabbi. He explained that the Niftar had two daughters, one the Mechallel Shabbos, and the other who had become frum through Chabad. The Chabad couple sent their son to YU where he got Smicha. I told the Rabbi how wonderful that was and he gave me a dirty look and then he mumbled something under his breath. I immediately understood his intent. As far as he was concerned the Chabad couple should sit shivah for their son for abandoning their faith.
To Menachem Shmei
You stated at the outset of this thread that you want to engage in an honest, open dialogue with anti-Lubavichers. If that’s so, please clarify what you meant when you said that Israeli Lubavichers, as compared to their American counterparts, are extremists.
To Neville Chaim Berlin
You stated that the BT movement came out of the Yeshiva world. Would you be so kind as to elucidate? I was in a Young Israel some years back that was headed by a Chabad Rabbi. He said the following, “The Rebbe invented Kiruv. When he started all the Rosh Yeshivos attacked him saying it was Bitul Torah. But when they saw he was successful they tried to copy him.”
To Menachem Shmei
“I’ve personally never had an honest discussion with the more extreme Lubavichers since they’re all Israelis and many don’t have much of a head on their shoulders etc.”
If I understand you correctly it’s the Israeli Lubavichers who are extremists, while the American branch is normal. This said, you claim that the American Lubavichers who “see” the Rebbe in 770 also visit the Ohel? Please explain that inconsistency, and elucidate what makes Israeli Lubavichers crazy, at least in your opinion.To Seichel 83
“My opinion is I have my Rebbe and I accept him 100%.” So in other words, you have no opinion of your own. That would explain why Lubavichers can’t come to a consensus on some rather basic questions for example is the Rebbe alive or dead? Obviously, reading the Igros doesn’t provide all the answers.