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Working on it
I dont know. I’m confused as to the message I know it is easy spin.
You dont seem to be saying the same as oomis though
in your view it shows “ambivalence toward the situation” I agree. Certianly a bad message.
Oomis says it shows in an “appalingly obvious” way where the administartion’s true alleigance lies. Unless she ment an allegiance with ambivoulsness you arent saying the same thing.
Which hardly paints a “clear picture” (in OP’s words) of the administration’s sentiment
would a Beis Hillel talmid suggest a tzaras habas as a shidduch for a Bais Shammai talmid?
Absolutely! Why not? According to both B”Sh and B”H it is 100% mutar for talmid of B”Sh to marry a tzaras habas. (before it formalized to allways follow B”H, after which the above stament is no longer true)
In your view you have an interesting paradox and a pretty good riddle:
How can you be oiver lifeni issur by helping someone do somehthing muttar?
ITs not clear to me, maybe you can help.
what kind of picture does it paint?
They support the attack in particular?
Or that they support radical Islam in general?
They don’t like the French?
What picture (“clear picture” ?) does it paint?
Thanks
Matan, Health does not have the same outlook as you. He says it is “very good” (direct quote) that Eric Garner was killed. He went on to says that if Officers Ramos or Liu had ever stolen anything ever it is “very good” that they were shot in the head.
DY. I think R” Belsky’s view on the Eruv is a bit extreme, and not the mainstream.
In your view can I as talmid of R” Menash Klien/’ Yechezkel Roth carry in BP?
(This doesnt have to turn into a discussion about the Eruv in of itself, which to be clear, I do not actually use)
Now granted R’ Belsky would say absolutely not, in which case it would certainly be mesayeah to lend a book on shabbos.
“Can you point to the siman which says it’s muttar?”
You dont need a siman to say it is mutar, there is no siman that says driving a car is mutar it is mutar becasue it isnt assur. Unless ty is Shabbos in which case it is assur becasue…
DY
I see, I never viewed it that way. I always assumed it isnt just that I am legitamete in OTHER aspects of KAshrus/neemanus etc.
To me it seems, as a Talmud of say R’ Belsky I can eat chalav stam even according to You who may hold it is chazer treif.
Of course if you hold nobody can eat it even if you rely on R’ Belsky, then obviously mesayeah would apply.
Is that your (Lior’s) view that nobdoy can eat it?
what about the reverse, according to what you are saying according to those who hold Chalav stam is ok it would seem to be ok for everybody. Can I let you eat Chalav stam, knowig you woudlnt eat it knowingly, becasue my Rav says it is?
Or in a more analagous case. If Lior in a moment of weakness r”chl says He’s chalishing for some hagen daaz where can he get some, according to you there should be no problem in my directing him, since I hold It is ok which, if you are being consistent should extend to everybody.
(To me it seems this would be mesayeha since I know he holds it is assur so it is assur for him, though not for me.)
DY what would the problem be?
Putting aside the technical details of lifnei iver which probably wopuldnt apply since chalav stam is readily available as are things to carry. Even if it were, or if you want to call it mesayeia. What aveira is there?
Assuming that person is allowed to eat chalav stam/carry on Shabbos. (Obviously if you hold even he cant carry/eat chalav stam that is a sepperate discussion) IT is nto an aveira for that person so what lifnei iver/mesayeha could there be?
Lior
As to your first question why not? Am I missing something? Assuming his posek is working within the framework of Orthodox Judaism, yet holds of the Eruv. Why cant that person carry?
Can I tell a Sefardi where to buy Kitniyos he plans to eat on Pesach?
As to your second question:
Have you ever tried asking a DD franchise if you can use their microwave? I tried this morning and was flat out refused.
Have you tried reporting to DD headqaurters?
BTW your concern regarding DD isnt limited to DD. MAybe the lays potatochip guy fried his bacon along with the potato chips yesterday. There is no mashgiach temidi at Lays and they are open on Shabbos.
Profound insight by health!
See in oppressive regimes (Saudi Arabia, Iran Etc) that are the antithesis of liberalism, extremisim can’t flourish.
Health,
“The cop did what he was supposed to do, whether it was PC or Not! “
Is that becasue he was supposed to arrest him and is therfore not responsible for the death? Or he was supposed to kill him becasue Garner had previously violated sheva mitzvos.
I (and most people commenting) are having trouble following your train of “thought”
Thanks DY
Fact 3 is not in dispute. he NYPD admited that the used technique was banned. though it is not illegal.
I’d be happy if anyone can direct a source otherwise.
All 4 of Goq’a facts are factual.
Though reasonable I guess resoanbale people can disagree regarding DY’s point.
Though without question Sam2’s point above is correct. Cops are rarely held accountable and tha is where the anger comes from.
Overall though I thik there is more that is agreed upon than disgareedd:
Namely, both Garner and the police are culable in his death. The police used excessive force. when injustice occurs protests are called for (this is actually what OP began with).
and Finnaly to quote DY Helath’s “whole line of thinking here is totally off”
Health
Pretending you are right,
who was the eid? Who was the dayan?
Health I’m confused why are you quoting Jewsih sources? Especialy when they say the OPPOSITE of your perverse view.
The Rambam says “??? ??? ?????? ???” Who was the eid that Garner stole? who was the dayan?
Health,
he wasnt 6 in high school, they didnt trade. Ramos took his sandwich
Um Health You did, “I’ll answer your question, even though it’s irrelevant! Yes, if they were Oiver the 7 Mitzvahs of B’nai Noach.”
(thanks for answering btw, though I dont get the good cops bad thing not all your comments make much sense (see also the Al Sharpton thing) is thta part of your religion too?)
Now who is lying. Granted they may not have ben oiver as much as garner but According to a highschool classmate of Officer Ramos’s Detective Ramos once took his tuna fish sandwich. according to your “logic” and your evil religion healthism, it is now “very good” that he was murdered.
Ok So when you can say “very good” when cops get killed, well you are right we dont belong to the same religion. Nobody I know from Open orthodoxy coming full circle to neturei karta agrees with you.
does healthism (or does your religion have a more creative name?) have many adherents? I would imagine the life expectancy in your religion isnt very high
As to your question:”Did you agree with Sharpton when he said “Kill the Jews”?”
Obviously not (did he actually say that? I have never heard that claim before, but no matter I’m not sure I agree with al sharpton ever, he is an evil person, though not as evil as people who call the murder of any inocen person let alone police officers “very good”)
“The mob then did kill S/O! If not, what’s the difference between mobs?”
I’m sorry I dont follow. which mob? in 91? Do you mean Charles Price? He was jailed for incitement.
Are you talking about something else?
Gamanit
thanks i read that story but somehow skipped that line.
Health You have still not answered here is my question again:
“”If it tuns out that Officers Ramos and Liu have ever stolen anything in their lives (even a shava perutah or less), ever been mevarech Hashem, gilui Arayos etc, then it is “very good” that they got shot!?”
(this is what you replied: “What religion are you? Why do libs always have to make the good people (cops) bad & the bad people good?” I dont see an answer there, As to your question I am definitely not an adherent of healthism)
DY, I never said they attemped to harm him, and of course he was resisting arrest.
Gamanit
That isnt exactly how grand juries work they can indict any one they want. For them to watch that video and say nobody did naything worthy of goinfg to trial is upseting o me and worthy of protest. This point has gotten lost over the course of this conversation. I’m not sure that the officers should be found guilty, all I’m saying is there should at least be a trial. For a grand jury to watch the video I saw and conclude nothing wrong took place is very disconcerting and worthy of protest. That is all I am saying. (If you read through the entire looooong conversation this is clear, it may not be apparent from one specific comment). To this end Nequetim agrees, protest is acceptable, he also agrees he police were (partly) “culpable” in the death and used “excessive force” our argument now is if the grand jury should automatically be accepted or not.
So really even if THOSE officers were justly not charged, it doesnt really change the overall situation, in whihc an injustice took place and nobody is being called to answer for it
I love wikipedia, but if you read something that sounds strange check the source. If you look at the source where the heart attack is referenced, it is not there
Neutiquam,
before your break i’d like ot thnak you for your time, it has been fun. You provided well written and thought out responses (unlike some other posters here, including myself as far as well-written goes). I think we agree more than we disagree as I’ve said in my last response (at this moment it is still in moderation)
Brings me back to late night yeshiva hock sessions which I miss.
All the best hope to see you back some time.
I hope you werent offended when I called you naive, I got caught up in the moment.
Neutiquam
-“The facts were that a legal process determined by years of democracy was carried out”
Years of democracy doesnt make it right. ITs not like it is a sytem that is reevluated and fixed, it hasnt chnaged in quite some time, is arguably antiquitated and most of the Western world has dropped it.
-“it would have been even less likely he would be found guilty of a crime.”
I have no problem with that
-“You believe the Jury was wrong. It’s possible, I’ll grant you that”
Hence the protest, Now I think we agree more than we disagree. The discussion began over wether those who protest deserve police protection, You from the start agreed protest was accepable and now concede tha the Jury may have even been wrong! (Which arguably would demand for protest)
-“you have gone from calling it murder to manslaughter over the last few posts”
My view hasnt chanegd I just shifted from using a coloquial expression to legal as per your request. (I dont think i said manslaughter, it isnt manslaughter , I’d call it negligent homicide)
-“We have both got our colouring of the case from the media.”
I dont care for the media they have 24 hours of news o fill and their almost necer is 24 hours of news so they make stuff up to fill most of the time. I got my view on this case from watching the incident myself.
– you keep asking for a better system. I dont think that is my responsobility, but at your insistence sure! here is an idea lets screen out potential biased grand jurors. A reform that has been called for for years and now is being spoken of again thanks to this very case, and the PROTESTS that followed.
Nequeim,
BTw in my comment regarding juries I use jury and grand jury interchangeably. This isnt accurate. The case of garner involved a grand jury. Grand juries dont get screened for bias and such. In a borough like Staten Island which is heavily populated by police officers and their families, it is not improbable tha the jury was biased. Even if they said hey I used to be a cop and I think cops shouldnt be indited they still can serve on a grand jury. Please keep that in mind as you evaluate whether a grand jury decision should be “doubtless”
Health
I dont know fake halacha so well, but I’ll bite. Why was he a treifa?
You also didnt respond to my question to you. here it is again:
“If it tuns out that Officers Ramos and Liu have ever stolen anything in their lives (even a shava perutah or less), ever been mevarech Hashem, gilui Arayos etc, then it is “very good” that they got shot!?”
Nequeitam
– “The Jury decided that there was no case to answer” I beleive the jury was wrong. And this isnt the first time
-“the Jury’s verdict is doubtless better informed that mine or yours'” Doubtless? A jury of 12 people too dumb to get out of jury duty is now doubtless? You are aware that in choosing a jury lawyers avoid educated people as thye prefer people they can manipulate.
also you have quite a few “probably”s in your post.
-“but you appear unclear as to the process, and freely say that you have no idea how the law can be improved.”
I have lots of ideas bu we are already of topic, if something is worng I dont think you have to offer a better solution inorder to be allowed to protest.
-“don’t actually seem to know why”
Weve been going at this for quite a few posts, you can disagree with me obviously, but I think Ive been pretty clear on why I think an injustice occured here.
-Your congress suggestion was hilarious btw (I assume you were kidding, if you were serious that paragraph is more naive than the one about the infalliable jury)
– “That enough for ya’?”
No! Thats a “probably” and “almost certainly” Definitely not enough to get off scot free fur killing (even accidentally)
-“And I will always support the right to protest”
Again so we agree! as Ive said from my very first post that mentioned you.
-“th officers had no idea he had asthma”
The guy looked like a walking health disaster. YW fan says he wheezed when he taked and couldnt walk a block.
-” But the system then was not the system of today”
Not sure if you are serious. It is exactly the same!
-“that case is evidence of a possible incorrect jury ruling is both conjecture and inaccurate.”
Agreed! it was definitely incorrect jury ruling (Oj later all but confessed). (Though I wonder how you can judge that case if you arent clued in to the events of that trial)
Netiquaim
– “You agree the law has been adhered to,”
I dont agree, Ive heard different reports regarding the “chokehold” ranging between “illegal” and “discouraged” I’ve avoided that line of argument simply because I’m not clear on the facts The the most leniant take i ahve heard is that it is “discouraged” do you know if anyone says it is a routine (encouraged?) use of force such as mace?
-“Can you please come up with a fairer system of choosing when to indict. “
No, that is not my job (thankfully).
– “despite them having far more access to the facts of the case than you have,”
I’m not sure what more evidence they can have than a videotape.
-“So feel free to protest.”
Again so you dont agree with YW fan (read the op) as I have been saying all along.
-“single episode involving a stupid man (I don’t wish to speak ill of the dead, but he shouldn’t have resisted)”
Agreed.
-“being stupid is not a crime”
It absolutely is if it leads to death! I’m not sure if driving with my eyes closed is illegal, though it certainly is stupid, If somebody dies as a result of that of course I committed a crime!
Question for You. (Depending on your age I guess) What did you think of say the OJ Simpson verdict?
YW fan
knowledge isnt always a factor. If I don’t know red means stop,I still get a ticket for driving through it.
YW fan glad to help (though we have covered this)
If he didnt have asthma they would be LESS culpable in murder. I gave an example of pushing on a person’s head. with a tiny bit of force. If by some freak accident a person died as a result of that, it wouldnt be murder, (maybe manslaughter). However if the persn was an infant with a open fontanelle (“soft spot”) you wouldnt say (I hope) well the baby’s physical condition led to its death.
Or (more direct nalagy) if I find a chronic COPD’R who is oxygen dependent and I clamp down on his oxygen supply watch him die as he gasps “I cant breathe” Would you say, well if he wasnt so sick clamping on oxygen wouldnt kill him so his medical issues are what casued death not my choking off his oxygen supply.
Neutiquam
You have many comments in your last post worthy of rsponses, I will go in order:
– I am not using “murder” in the legal sense. They used waht you agree is “excesive force” which directly led to death. Legally it is probably negligent homicide.
– I agree regarding Halacha.
– It is not the exact same as in court, it doesnt need to be unanimous, odds are it was a heavily biased Jury in a borough were many are related to police officers. (I am of course making assumptions but hey so are you in your last paragraph.)
– “That is democracy, that is law. ” If the law is wrong then there is a moral duty to protest in some way *This is the point YW fan originally disagreed with*
– Whats amazing about this case is it is clear, it is on tape. What I find so frustrating about this story is thta after Fergusen which was largely a he said he said (or he said she said he said she said… if you count all the eyewitness accounts) I gave the benefit of the doubt to the grand jury. I thought, as Obama and other suggested that equipping police officers with cameras would solve these issues as events would be plain for all to see. Yet here we have tape of an unarmed nonthreatening person, literally with his hands up! jumped on and choked to death. The video is widely available and the perpetrators still got off scot free!
YW Fan,
almost definitely not.
Health,
I’m not sure if you are serious, Garner wasn’t being arrested/killed for grand larceny. What does that have to do with anything? Are you aying becasue of his stealing in the past it allows for him to be killed?
If so, it would follow based on your “logic” that any body who stole ever can just be killed.
If it tuns out that Officers Ramos and Liu have ever stolen anything in their lives (even a shava perutah or less), ever been mevarech Hashem, gilui Arayos etc, then it is “very good” that they got shot!?
And you have the nerve to attribute this gross krumkeit to Hashem?
Neutiquam
” if what they were doing is what the law permits, then it cannot go to trial” Circular reasoning, whether the law permits it should be determined at trial
At any rate: “Of course, protests should always be allowed,” As I said we agree!!
(It was forseeable as YW fan helfully provided: “He wheezed when he talked and could not walk a block without resting,” It was certainly forceeable when he began saying “I cant breathe” and they stood around not helping. If EMs was called then and he was treated, I MAY have had less of a case, but when you squeeze the life out of a obese man who “wheezed when he talked” and then stand around doing nothing, you don’t need a Medical degree to guess what will happen)
Health
you are making less and less sense, in the wild west theri was free reign to kill whomever you didnt like, we do not live in the wild west, that is why the police should be held to a standard and answer for their actions.
you must have a different list of 7 mitzvos, mine doesnt include selling loose cigarettes. What on Earth are you talking about,.
Please don’t insult the Torah by dragging it in to defend your krum bloodthirsty shitos. Everybody from Reform going full circle to Neturei karta also claims they have the Torah on their side. If you have a source indicating that selling loose cigarettes or resisting arrest is punishable by the death penalty fine otherwise stop claiming to speak for Hashem.
nequetaim, wether or not it can be called murder is a (relevant) side issue.
the main issues are: 1) is there enough to go to trial, from your post “there was culpability on both sides” “the measures they used were excessive.” I would think you’d agree, What should be done with “culpable” police who use measures that are “excessive”?
and more to the point, can you agree that the video is ambiguous enogh justify (peacful) protest, and those who protest do not deserve to “lose police protection for a week” (that is what this discussion is about, no need to read the entire thread it is in the OP)?
This part is incorrect: “was certainly unforeseeable at the moment the force was applied” It should have been forseebele, th guy looks like a walking health disaster
Lior
So we agree, this discussion was if there is a right to protest. Yw fan in the op says no.
Health
Are you serious “very good” that a person was killed. I can disagree with those who say it was sad but unavoidable and the police shouldnt be held accountable. You don’t deserve talking to. Killing unarmed, harmless people for crimes that dont carry the deatg penalty, is never “very good” and I dont see how a good person can call it such.
Gamnit,
Not good enough, after holding his breath causing him to gasp for air, they shouldve provided oxygen and probably albuterol and steroids too. Not doing so is part of their act of murder.
Yw fan
Neutiquam does not agree with you “in this case it (violence) was too much”
Yw fan
Lior, my comment was in jest.
To be honest I’m not sure what they should have done, it isnt relevant. Bottom line is an non-violent man dies at the hands of the police, and it was deemed so acceptable that the case wont even go to trial.
It is perfectly reasonable to protest this gross miscarriage of justice, I don’t know what they shouldve done (for arguments sake) let their lawyers make their argument in front of a jury, and they Garner will never have theoppurtunity, is a compelling reason to protest (peacefully)
Do you and YW fan really find the above to be so unreasonable?
Lior, yes
DY, I briefly alluded to that earlier. among Asian cultures the custom on Christmas is davka to give money and not presents, though I am not sure if that would be a factor, since if we were to ban every custom any society has that is related to A”Z there woudlnt be much left to do. What are your thoughts. Shoudl the Asian custom be a factor (according to the Gr”a) or do we limit it to custom’s that surronding society does?
Lior, how far could he run?
To quote YW fan “He wheezed when he talked and could not walk a block without resting, they said”
In English that is called choking to death
Lior (To a lesser extent DY), if I show you a source indicating that christmas gelt precedes chanukah gelt would you say gelt is assur?
YW are you serious? It means he is about to stop breathing A body cant sustain breathing @ 50 for too long, especially if in spite of that he isnt oxygenating well.
So let me get this straight, if im choking somone he says I cant breathe I cant breathe then passes out and dies. I didnt kill him, since obviously he was able to breathe while I choked him (since he was talking), and then he just happned to pass out for some other reason nothing to do with my chokehold on his neck. Do you actually beleive this?
Picturesq, resisting arrest doenst carry the death penalty
YW Fan, “I cant breathe” , If somebody is maintaining an oxygen saturation of 80% and breathing at a rate of 50 breaths/minute. You can bet the person will be gasping and saying I cant breathe. This would indicate impending respiratory failure. To say “well, obviously you can breathe since you are able to talk, so let me just stand around doing nothing, or better yet, keep choking you” Is simply absurd
YW fan there is nothing there to change anybody’s mind. I hope.
The video of Garner being killed is widely available. If not enought o convict, at the least it shouldve led to a trial that it didnt is a travesty of justice that should lead all to protest.
This line “he died as a result of poor health and cardiac arrest. Mr. Garner was obese and had a history of asthma, diabetes, and other health issues resulting from his poor medical condition.” is even more nonsense, so using this “logic” if I kill someone who is oxygen dependent by say clamping on his O2 supply, I am not culpable since if the victim dint require a steady oxygen supply, my clmaing a tube wouldnt have harmed him. That he suffered from chronic ailments is reason for the police to have been even more cautious in how they subdue the non-violent felon, not less so!
YW Fan
so in your view the choices are a Police force that kills unarmed felons with no consequences or nothing?
shoejoe. Those tunes are kown as “misinai” as an expression they arent litterally from Sinai.
As to the OP’s question outside of written word it is hard (impossible?)to pass down a mesorah over that long a period. Think of tzaras/exact color of techeiles which have been lost over the years. Even within the written word think how many machlokasim have arisen over the years, even involving basic things like sounds of shofar, orders of parshiyos of tefilin, of course explanations have been given as to how those disagreements arose, but the interuptions/confusion/disagreement in our mesorah is real (we have ways to deal with it, his isnt a question). Even within the written Torah their are differences between ours and chazal’s and even among ours their are 10 differences between most of ours and Teimanim (the most well known of which is Dakah with a “heh” or “aleph”) That tunes have been lost is o be expected.
DY for arguments sake assuming you are correct (as an aside gift giving on Decemebr 25th is a Western European thing, Asians exclsively give money. Though like us, in America their minhag is evolving somewhat too)
So what would be assur:
Gift giving ever?
Gift giving on Yom tov in particular?
Gift giving specificaly on chanukah: always even November/early december or only when it is near Dec 25th.
scared not quite. Anti-vaccinators are not interested in the truth, if they were this one would be easy since they can look at any of dozens of peer reviewed studies proving the safety of vaccines.
Anti-vaccinators are guilty people putting theri own and other children at risk.
If an ignoramus came along and innocently asked vaccine safety be proven, no problem do a quick pubmed search.
In case my last point wasnt clear. What I mean is that claiming something “isnt in the spirit” is subjective. If I dont view it as copying goyim, but as a celebration of chanukah, then it is in the spirit for me.
What? DY and I are in agreement, (baruch shechiyanu…)
Also here is where your point really falls apart. You (now) say there isn’t anything technically wrong with it, which of course make it mutar. But it isnt “in the spirit”
Now most people giving gifts, arent giving it to be like goyim, they are either giving it because that is the present day minhag (or “minhag” if you prefer, i.e what is done lemaseh) So you are saying that they should think they are doing it to be like goyim, making it not in the spirit and therefore avoid it. Being “in the spirit” of something, by definition requires people to think about the connotation you ascribe to the act
ummmm lior: “ubi: The Rema doesn’t support you at all. You fardreit the Rema into the results you want in this case.”
?????
That doesnt necessarily make it assur, please see the chanukah gift thread for further info. (Or Y.D. 178 if you are really adventurous)
Lior the minhag of gifts is spreading faster than I thought. Kupas Ha’ir raising money to “Give Them Strength! This Chanukah, send a toy to a needy child and bring light and joy to their life! Kupat Ha’ir will donate one wrapped toy to a child in need this Chanukah, thanks to your generous donation.”
I know, maybe they aren’t “ehrilche yidden” as you put it
Thanks DY great source.
Lior in case you have trouble, he lumps together both gift giving/money using them interchangebly and wonders whether BOTH are chukas akum, ofc ourse cites the Rema that since has a rational reason both are allowed.
(As an aside oomis the chashmanoim were far far from the first to mint coins)
DY even if so, Gift giving on Chanukah is certainly rational, especially when you consider that Lior agrees that money is ok or even commendable as a minhag in its own right. Giving gifts in place of money can hardly be considered irrational.
Even without that gift giving is a fairly common, and more to the point: rational, way of celebrating