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DY for arguments sake assuming you are correct (as an aside gift giving on Decemebr 25th is a Western European thing, Asians exclsively give money. Though like us, in America their minhag is evolving somewhat too)
So what would be assur:
Gift giving ever?
Gift giving on Yom tov in particular?
Gift giving specificaly on chanukah: always even November/early december or only when it is near Dec 25th.
scared not quite. Anti-vaccinators are not interested in the truth, if they were this one would be easy since they can look at any of dozens of peer reviewed studies proving the safety of vaccines.
Anti-vaccinators are guilty people putting theri own and other children at risk.
If an ignoramus came along and innocently asked vaccine safety be proven, no problem do a quick pubmed search.
In case my last point wasnt clear. What I mean is that claiming something “isnt in the spirit” is subjective. If I dont view it as copying goyim, but as a celebration of chanukah, then it is in the spirit for me.
What? DY and I are in agreement, (baruch shechiyanu…)
Also here is where your point really falls apart. You (now) say there isn’t anything technically wrong with it, which of course make it mutar. But it isnt “in the spirit”
Now most people giving gifts, arent giving it to be like goyim, they are either giving it because that is the present day minhag (or “minhag” if you prefer, i.e what is done lemaseh) So you are saying that they should think they are doing it to be like goyim, making it not in the spirit and therefore avoid it. Being “in the spirit” of something, by definition requires people to think about the connotation you ascribe to the act
ummmm lior: “ubi: The Rema doesn’t support you at all. You fardreit the Rema into the results you want in this case.”
?????
That doesnt necessarily make it assur, please see the chanukah gift thread for further info. (Or Y.D. 178 if you are really adventurous)
Lior the minhag of gifts is spreading faster than I thought. Kupas Ha’ir raising money to “Give Them Strength! This Chanukah, send a toy to a needy child and bring light and joy to their life! Kupat Ha’ir will donate one wrapped toy to a child in need this Chanukah, thanks to your generous donation.”
I know, maybe they aren’t “ehrilche yidden” as you put it
Thanks DY great source.
Lior in case you have trouble, he lumps together both gift giving/money using them interchangebly and wonders whether BOTH are chukas akum, ofc ourse cites the Rema that since has a rational reason both are allowed.
(As an aside oomis the chashmanoim were far far from the first to mint coins)
DY even if so, Gift giving on Chanukah is certainly rational, especially when you consider that Lior agrees that money is ok or even commendable as a minhag in its own right. Giving gifts in place of money can hardly be considered irrational.
Even without that gift giving is a fairly common, and more to the point: rational, way of celebrating
Lior, Not quite the rema says a minhag thta has a rational explanation his example is special outfit for doctors) isnt assur.
Are you saying gift giving isnt rational?
Did you read the Rema?
Ok so its a machlokes between the Rema and lior.
Be careful who you write of since by far most frum jews do in fact give presents. A simple glance through advertisements in yated confurms this. Who do you think they are advertising to? (hint it isnt pope francis)
The funniest part to me is that if we were having this discussion a century from now (or if our Grandchildren would), once the minhag has completley evolved to gifts, EEK and Lior will be defending the ancient heilege minhag of giving davka gifts on chanuka. Pointing out all sorts of hidden kabbalastic interpretations, If you take the first to letters of “matana” in mispr kattan it equas 8 keneged the days of chanukah, while the mispar kattan of the last to letters is 10 keneged the seva sephiros and the three avos etc…
While I (or Grandchildren) will point out actually, minhag of gifts are fairly new and a century ago people argued it was actually goyish.
Um Lior not quite. don’t guess halacha. the Rema says (source provided above) If an act has a rational toeles it is allowed. Giving gifts has a rational toeles. Of course others (Gr”a have stricter interpretations as to the prameters of Chukas akum, but you cant fault others for following basic Rema,)
BTw Religous Christians are opposed to gifts as it is a “commercialization” of their religious-holiday.
Minhagim always evolve. chazal don’t mention chanuka Gelt, neither do any Rishonim The minhag of gelt started later and like many minhagim evolved now the minhag is changing to Gifts (among some).
Is the mekor from Goyim? Probably (Though I’m willing to bet that Gelt came from Goyim too but no source at the moment)
does that make it assur? Well we have halachos for that go through Y.D. 178. It is quite hard to argue that it is assur.
It isnt complicated at all, you don’e feel comfortable supporting a religous organization you are not apart of so you will donate in his memory to say american red cross or to the poor or something.
(as an aside, saying “it’s nothing personal” makes it sound personal)
Voos epes, by far most people here (and not here for that matter)disagree with you.
That we don’t comment is becasue of several reasons, including:
1) PBA and others are doing a fine job pointing out how wrong/foolish you are
2) You arent bright enough nor honest enough to realize the errors of your ways, so arguing with you may be a waste of time
voos epes,
You don’t mean Rabbi Weiss you mean Yisroel Dovid Weiss. Rabbi Weiss is quite opposed to NK.
Secondly, you are on very bad footing when a list of atendees includes David Duke.
Lior, we can discuss that separately, as they did in fact promote the cult but this is waaay off topic. Regardless though you havent answered my question:
“can you give an example that makes you view Ami as left of center?”
Lior can you give an example that makes you view Ami as left of center?
You either have a funny center or you have right and left backwards
I can think of plenty of right wing stories for example defending/prmototing the very Right wing lev tahor cult (granted they probably did it to create controversy and sell magazines, nonethless they couldve done the same by defending say, Avi Weiss)
Can you povided any counter example?
DY, it you keep claiming that my point has been addressed whn it has not. Though I dont want to hijack this thread for that point.
As to your question why boys arent dateless, it is becasue the system as set up favors the boys (favors is an understatment.) The boys are essentially given a list of girls and told to start picking. Boy says “Yes” To A even if she says no, he will then say “Yes” to B and so on and so forth until he gets that Yes. Therfore a guy is essentially gauranteed a date, regardless of the age gap.
Thanks for conceding though that the the age discrepency of married couples isnt based on hard data.
Even with an age gap TM In ordere for it to be a significant cause related to any shiduch disparity. Data regarding age difference among couples is needed too. Has that been adressed anywhere?
(And of course as explained elsewhere the Age Gap TM while it MAY explain the shiduch crises it in no way explains why many girls arent even getting dates aka the dating divide TM)
The question is a non-sequitor: Sacry movies are less dangerous than both French fries and Roller coasters,and less dangerous than walking down the street. Yet they are scarier.
I’m so confused Isnt it up to the uncles and aunts in queston? If Uncle Shimon is comforatble being called “Shimon” are we to tell him too bad, lior says it is “unacceptable”?
Will Iran get nuclear weapons? Yes
Will Israel stop it? no
What is behind all this? A desire to show how strong they are.
There is a medrash somehwere thats says anything you want.
What is the reason that Hashem put us in such a matzav? Nobody can know
And is this connected to Gog Mimagog in any way? ditto
Lamud vav, the chances of finding it are one in a million before you look for them.
however once youve found it you can attach significance to it.
For example say i spit out 4 numbers at random. The odds of randomly generating today’s date 10 05 are 1/10,000 Would be pretty cool. However once ive generated any 4 numbers you can attach significane to it, it can be your birthday, your wifes birthday, this year, the year you were born, the year your wife was born, your house number, etc… Once the number is generated it is easy to see what an amazing machine it guessed my uncle’s birthday the odds are 1/10,000. While true, the odds of generating ANY “significant 4 number combination” quite high. If you really grasp and throw in gematrias the odds of generating a “significant” four digit code are certain if you attach the significance once youve found it.
It isnt hard to search the Troah for Obama, Barack, BarackObama BarachHObama etc once he is elected. you will find something if you look for enough stuff as they have and has been found in War an Peace
1) “Codes” have been found in Moby dick War and Peace among other works.
2) “Codes” can be found in any string of ranodom letters if you don’t decide beforhand what you are looking for. For example If you spell out the first letters of the names of the months January, February etc… You get jfmamjJASONd. Cleary a secret code to Jason, if your name is Jason they are alluding to you.
It allways struck me that the codes are used to predict facts after they occur. After Obama is elected they found codes alluding to it. ItMAy be impressive if before the election they had looked for Obama and Romney and bad news for Romney his name isnt there.
Or better yet, I’d like to see the codes predict who will win in 2016, it shouldnt be too hard it can probably be broken down to at most say 50 possibilities thats nothing for a computer to run. Have them predict the winner, then we can talk.
Lior are you serious? That the rema lived in 16th century poland is a boich sevara?
Or that the logistics of providing chicjens for an agrarian 16th century society are different than a 21st Century city?
And as sam2 said I in no way am dreaming of overruling the rema?
No Lior the Rema lived in a rural society (16th century Poland) when all had access to chicken to how to feed them hold them and care for them. It is a minhag tbut as others have pointed out their are halachos too. The Rema would not recognize kapporas today .
shabbos on Yom kippur isnt rare (in fact it is the most likely day though not by far) it occurs slightly less than 1/3 of the time. Shemitah as You know is one in 7 years so about every 3-4 shemitah or 21-28 years you can expect your “3 in 1 Shabbos”
Sam2. I think it is because the Yeshivish world is terrified of calls for change even if warrented. Especially when it is called for by “animal rights activists” or scientists or those perceived as “liberal”
Lior Kapparos as practiced today has zero to do with the Rema. In the Rema’s days people had chickens so once a year before shecting it anyway they twirled it around their head first. I assure you the Rema didnt have thousands of chickens trucked into to cite is from who knows where then stored in the sun with little food and water. Then to be shechted and discarded. And no most of the cickens do not go to the poor. There is too much effort to clean all thos echickens most are killed and thrown in the garbage. This was not the minhag as practiced byt the Rema or even a mere century ago.
google it. Thats what I did when asked to say it with someone. (The short version is one line “tehei mesasis kaparha al kol avanosai” if possible there is a longer paragraph that begins “modeh ani.” If possible the same vidui as yom kippur is said)
Besuros Tovos and Gemar chasima Tova
Mazel Tov Haifagirl, that in no way changes anything else said on this thread.
Also thos earent the only two times you heard the word used, this thread is riddled with it.
Lior Your concert example is silly.
I’m fairly certain you would leave a concert in the middle if half the audience was allowed on stage to participate and join in the concert while you were told you can stand on chair and peer through at everybody else through a partition. No ammount of convincing you that you are more special than the others thats why you dont need to participate in the concert would convince you to stay.
I’m not saying you’re worng, just that your comparison is silly
DY I asked for a source that poor people are insulted by the term “polite society” This has not been provided. Feel free to scroll back (I was careful to phrase it that way)
DY i define it that way too
DY offensive intent as opposed to “flame retardent” when used with offensive intent (directed at the “dolt”) it is offensive to the developmentaly delayed (becasue they don’t like it used that way as elaborated above) That is what I meant.
Randomex, Menaes was not my best example, it was the one the mods allowed through. There is an element of arbitrariness that (any) society assigns to words.
At any rate, “retarted” isn’t arbitraily offensive as I explained above, so my point regarding meanes is not vital
DY “I didnt mean intend to offend developmentally delayed people.
What did you mean by “intend”?”
All I meant was what Randomex said.
That being said, it could alos be understood the way you seem to have understood that I am not accusing anypne of INTENDING to insult the developmentaly delayed. They are however (generally speaking) insulted by usage of the term even if the intent is not to offend THEM
rebyid, I have mentioned a couple times you are free to be offensive, if you dont care to be polite by all means use any word you feel like. I never assmued everybody wants to be polite, I am well aware that many don’t care.
DY, we arent discussing how term originated. We are discussing thow they are percieved today in 2014. In fact “retarded” originated as a polite way to replace the term “imbecile” that in no way changes the way it is percieved today.
DY “I honestly don’t think they’re reading the CR. Their families might be, but if they’re normal (i.e. not hypersensitive), they shouldn’t be offended, as catch yourself said.”
I dont think you get to decide what should and shouln’t offend a large number of people.
When my moniker was used s a synonym for “retarded” as in any body who disagrees with that poster is “retarded (=) developmentally delayed, … (=) idiotic, (=) dolty, (=) ubiquitin-ey, (=) asinine, (=) insane,(=) bi-polar, (=)depressed, …” I was hurt . (The first time was funny, but then repeated three times in one post, hurt a little, I have sinceforgiven I am just using it to illustarte my point. Having your name used as a put down to others and as a synonym for “idiotic” doesnt feel good. It is not hard to understand why those with a condition are offended when their (or their family member’s) condition is used to insult others as a synonym for “idiotic.”
And again it doesnt matter, if they find it offensive then just don’t use it (if you want to be percived as polite) Whether or not they are being hypersensitve.
DY. I didnt mean intend to offend developmentally delayed people. I doubt that is the case, they do however find it offensive when it is used as a way to offend others. They dont mind when it is used in a flame-retardent sense.
In contrast the n-word is considred offensive in all conotations. They do take offense if you said Yankel’s Hat is “n–ger” even though technicaly it is the latin term for black. Offenive/polite terms are decided by society.
Rape is uncouth in (most) yeshivish circles. although the hebrew term (even in ISarael) is not.
“retarded” is considred impolite. Though not in every usage.
The n word is offensive in every usage.
Popa, Do poor people take offense at the term “polite society”?
Can you provide a source (that they take offense, I have nevr heard that. (In fact when I used the term I included many polite poor poeople)
DY you asked:
“Offensive to whom?”
To developmentally delayed people. Just to be clear, they are the ones being offended (and their families, though as catch yourself points out not all families)
“Polite society defined how, as people who don’t use the r word?”
Defined as people who want to be sensitive to other’s (especially those with developmental delays) feelings.
Akuperma lots of translation s are imperfect.
And of course in hebrew they dont have these “sensitivities” they simply use the hebrew word for rape. We have decided rape is improper .there is no inherent logic, in some circles it is not yhat watway as in popas elementary school.
Ask a developmentaly delayed person or their family if they
Mind the word retarted. They are the ones being offended not me
Thanks popa, I did find it humorous at first three times in your last post was a bit much.
Reb yid, its not about you. If polite society were to deem the word tissue offensive then it would be offensive
DY as to your question “So why can’t popa and I use the “R” word?”
you can but it is considered offensive.
Polite society has deemed the word not-refined/insensitive.
Why when learning Kesubas can I say “Me’anes” but not the English equivalant. We a a society have arbitrary decided that in polite-yeshivish society we don’t use the English equivalent.
Oh please popa. This whole discussion is about the use of the word “retarded” with offensive intent!
That is why DY’s comment is immaterial. In cases such as “retard growth “or flame retardent” there is no offensive intent so it is not offensive.
You are so trying to offend that you are insulting my moniker, and by extention me personally simply because you disagree. You certainly have every right to. But please don’t claim you don’t have offensive intent.
Veltz and when people find “developmentaly delayed” offensive it too will be offensive.
Sensibilities change all the time the n word was once acceptable as was oriental, tbings change sensibilities change. If you dont care and want to use a word that those involved find offensive by all means do so. If you want to he sensitive avoid using words they find offensive. I dont get the debate.
Are we discussing if they find the word offensive?
Are we really discussing if we should avoid a word that developmentaly delayed people find offensive?
And popa thanks for proving my point
DY, if a significant number of people here found ubiquitin offensive then yes I probably would stop (I’ll bet the mods would force it if people found it offensive). If just a Daas Yachid found it offensive I would say batlo daa’to
(I’m not sure what a significant number is 51%? 75%? 90?)
It is offensive because people who are developmentally delayed (and their families) find it offensive. If deaf people found the term “deaf” offensive then it would too would be offensive.
I don’t know why people have trouble with this. similarly If native Americans find the term “redskin” offensive then it is offensive it doesnt matter how long the term has been used. You don’t have to care you are free to use offensive terms such as retarded and redskins, but we dont get to dictate what should and shouldn’t offend people. If they are offended then by definition it is offensive, whether or not the person using the term meant nay offense.
So what is the problem? You need to wash n’tilas yadayim for bread too.
Is there no water available?