Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
“I don’t believe poisoning people’s water supply falls under public health either; ”
It sure does
ensuring clean water supply is squarely (and waste management) is absolutely part of public health
Probably one of the greatest government achievements
Thats why I focused so much on it . I have heard all sort of libertarians arguments before
being anti (government involvement in) clean water isnt one Ive heard before – hence my fascination with thisI agree regulations should not be based on haphazard decisions nor quack science
NC
The Government can (and does) set regulations BEFORE they occur. These regulations can be enforced BEFORE they cause damage.
Yes if there are victims they need money but the point of regulations is to prevent victims
I don’t understand your next paragraph.
Under your proposal I can dump toxic substances into local drinking supply. Until someone is harmed (and knows they are) cand can prove that my substance caused their harm i’m good. It might ne worth taking that risk.
Even if you know I’m polluting your water supply. The only way to stop me is to get haarmed.That doesn’t seem like a good approach.
Yo usay “If a big company wrongs people living in upstate NY…” The idea of regulation is to stop them before the people are harmed.
Maybe I’m not being clear,
Drunk driving probably doesn’t fall under “public health” (or does it?)
Should there be a law banning drunk driving?
I say yes. The idea is to stop the drunk driver BEFORE he hurts someone. Sure he can be sued if/when he hurts someone. but a. That is still tru with government regulation, and 2) that is too little too late once the damage has been done.
Same thing here it wouldn’t suffice to let the private sector sue companies AFTER thyeve committed damage ( and is known and can be proven) the idea is to stop it beforeAAQ
“I am not saying I am against all regulation,”
Then we agree!“This may be a silly argument when you are suggesting full gov regulation v. full lack of it”
I agree completly
Though at no point did I say “full gov regulation”
NC did say full lack of it whci hsurprised me “I don’t public health should exist as a concept.”AAQ & NC
There are several problems with relying on lawsuits It is often impossible to prove any specific cause and effect. There is no way to prove that Joe’s cancer resulted from my dumping chromimum 6 into his drinking supply. and more often it is years down the line my factory may have moved or disbanded before he is diagnosed .
not to mention suing takes some know how, need someone to figure out this town seems to have a high prevelance of cancer lets try to see if there is a local cause. who is doing this investigation? sure they could hire a lawfirm but why people’s safety be limited to those with money/sophistication to go down that road?“Yeah fumes was not the best case he could have chosen since it’s not like the government can really do anything about those either (i.e. they can’t suck them back out of the air once they’re there).”
thats why its a GOOD example. Suing isnt enough. The damage has been done already. What comfort is that to a town Ive poisoned? “Ok so good news and bad news you all have cancer BUT youre getting a huge settlement”
I dont know seems like regulations up front BEFORE there is a problem is a better approach . PErfect? no but better than letting people do what they want and if things go wrong youll get sued
NC
“Any other questions?”
Yes pleaseHow would some of these be done privately
Lets start with one Specifically environmental regulations . I have a factory that produces hazardous waste fumes, heavy metals all of that stuff
how should tI “privalty:” be prevented from pumping my toxic fumes into the air and radioactive waste into the local drinking supply ?“To be fair, your post has caused me to realize there are more adjusters than I thought.”
And vice versa! I (your post led me to realize there are less than I thought)
“So each community would have to know what the average noon is for their exact longitude?”
this was in last post but worth repeating so you dont miss it:
I just discovered a website: 6thhour dot com in which can enter location and it tells you when the 6th hour is2scents
“Yet you make him seem like some silly goose who tweets randomly and doesn’t even know what he himself meant.”
Lets use onse specific example
He famously tweeted “Covfefe”
Do you htink this was more than a random tweet?
If yes then clearly he does tweet randomlly (at least sometimes)He welcomed back “Melanie” from the hospital do you think Melania briefly changed her name to Melanie or was that a typo?
If yes then clearly he does have occasional typos?Why are you so sure that THIS tweet is one that he fully thought through and meant
And here’s the real kicker
In 2019 he tweeted the Opposite:
““Making Daylight Saving Time permanent is O.K. with me,” (3/11/19)
OF course he MAY have changed his mind .but this does not seem to be the most likely explanantion
Still mistake in my comment though point still holds
I added instead of subtracted NY is earlier than Phili (more east) not later
Mean solar noon is 11:56 in NYC EST so the 6th hour is 5:56 – 6:56PM EST. during DST , average noon is 12:56 PM DST so the 6th hour is 6:56 – 7:56PMI just discovered a website: 6thhour dot com in whci hcan enter location and it tells you when the 6th hour is
“but wouldn’t it be based solely on Shaos Zmaniyos?”
although there is such an approach I dont think this is standard (for those who follow this minhag) The “rulership” of maazalos dont depend on the the zemanei hayom. Granted I dont understand what this means but comes up in Shas a few times where each mazal has an hour
Asking around I did hear some people say they do 6-7 all year round, maybe it is a “real shita” though I agree with you that it is starange and I’m not sure why they would change for DST
NC
“If other people want to take risks with their own lives, it shouldn’t bother you.”
This is silly.
1) No vaccine is 100% effective
2) your health does affect me, putting aside the both as a frum person I am required to care about you, but even as a felow human, there is an element of communal responsibility. You probably disagree with htis, so I’lll include a bottom line approach as well if someone gets sick from Polio we all pay for it both in the literal sense whether through insurance/govt if Medicare and by taking up medical time
3) some cant get a vaccine for one reason or other..you can certainly argue on all these points iff cant get vaccine well thats not your problem, and can have a system where hose who chose not to get a vaccine and then get Polio are left to die in the street though this too comes with its drawbacks
which brings me to this
“If the government stays out of people’s business, we don’t have problems.”
this is demonstrably falsethe eradication of smallpox is a huge accomplishment its an odd take to say ” I don’t public health should exist as a concept. I have my approach to my health and you have your’s” Polio was almost eradicated
There are other vital areas of Public health
Poison control is an invaluable resource
Clean water
sewage management
these are all included in Public health
Are you really arguing that you should deal with your waste, and I am free dto do with my waste as I please?Not to mention Environmental issues, sure you probably believe they go to far. Are you saying everybody should be free to discharge whatever the ywant into the air?
strangest of all RFK doesn’t want to get rid of the FDA in fact he wants to greatly expand it by limiting more chemicals in foods.
Are you arguing that there should be no regulation of food/medicines Let the free market decide..
Try my medicine, if it works then more people wil buy it, if you get sicker or die, well then I guess demand for it will drop]Is that your approach?In short are you saying there should be
vaccine program?
Food regulations?
environmental regulations ?
drug safety?
govt funded health resources (eg Poison control)If you answered yes to ANY of these ie some of these should exist to some extent then you do in fact believe in public health
If no you believe these shouldn’t exist thank you for taking the time to read this“If a region switched to permanent DST, would even the second camp concede that the issue would be between 6 and 7, or would they forever switch to 7-8?”
Obviously minhagim vary , but most do not shift ” every week with zmanim. ” nor should they ,
they should forever switch to 7-8.
There are a few different Shitos as to how to calculate the 6th hour. Some consider it the first hour of Shabbos, some 6th hour after the actual chatzos of that day. Most (who follow this minhag) do so 6th hour after the average Chatzos .As you allude though average chatzos is not exactly 12 noon since it varies longitudinally. Yes some do adjust for this though in NY it is a slight difference
Astronomical average noon is 12:04 in NYC EST so the 6th hour is 6:04 – 7:04 PM EST. during DST , average noon is 1:04 PM DST so the 6th hour is 7:04-8:04 PM which his pretty close to 7-8. In Lakewood its even closer , in Phiidelphia whci his the center of time zone Mean local time = EST“as for areas at the far side of a time zone,”
In those cases those who do not adjust for the change from mean local time to time zones (I thought people did, some certianly do), harder to understand that approach. I suspect it isnt based on any real shita. I dont know anyone who “holds” this way I think it might be a mistake in which case hard to know what they “should” do since it is anyway probably wrong(other version had mistake, fixed in this verions)
2scents
I htink youre giving Trump to much credit
his tweets are often fleeting thoughts often with spelling errors often contradicting each other .
while Ihe did tweet hos “proposal” do get rid of DST I’m not sure he knew wah the meantAs NC correctly points out MArco Rubio, is cleary pro permanent DST and in his tweet Elon supported permanent DST as well
You say
“To broaden your limited understanding, a simple Google search will reveal the 1966 Uniform Time Act, which prohibits year-round DST. However, year-round Standard Time is not illegal.
At this point, the federal government cannot expand DST to be all year, nor does it make sense for most states to do so.”I don’t get this the 1966 act was a law by congress, ie the federal government they can just as easily change it as they almost did a few years ago .
you also say ” Trump was clear in his message,” was there any message other than tweet ?(admittedly it was clear though again I’m not sure how much weight to give it)
“If a region switched to permanent DST, would even the second camp concede that the issue would be between 6 and 7, or would they forever switch to 7-8?”
Obviously minhagim vary , but most do not shift ” every week with zmanim. ” nor should they ,
they should forever switch to 7-8.
There are a few different Shitos as to how to calculate the 6th hour. Some consider it the first hour of Shabbos, some 6th hour after the actual chatzos of that day. Most (who follow this minhag) do so 6th hour after the average Chatzos .As you allude though average chatzos is not exactly 12 noon since it varies longitudinally. Yes some do adjust for this though in NY it is a slight difference
Astronomical average noon is 12:04 in NYC EST so the 6th hour is 6:04 – 7:04 PM EST. during DST , average noon is 1:04 PM DST so the 6th hour is 7:04-8:04 PM which his pretty close to 7-8. In Lakewood its even closer , in Phiidelphia whci his the center of time zone Standard time = EST“as for areas at the far side of a time zone,”
In those cases those who do not adjust for the change from standard time to time zones (I thought people did, some certianly do), harder to understand that approach. I suspect it isnt based on any real shita. I dont know anyone who “holds” this way I think it might be a mistake in which case hard to know what they “should” do since it is anyway probably wrongNC
“You’re simply wrong. Everybody knows that Litvishers marry at an age gap ”
Im not interested in what “everybody knows” Im interested in facts.
I fully get that this doesnt interest you. Beseder. I am NOT trying to convince you. I dont find arguments over belief prodcutive. This is your belief you will not change your mind. Ok“Huh? This has nothing to do with anything. Nobody cares about whether or not people can go on dates”
This is demonstrably false. I see you havent been following the discussion over years. this is ALWAYS the complaint . It was mentioned in this thread as i posted a verbatim quote . So again while YOUd odnt care this it undermines your beleief system, others do .
” If there is a surplus of let’s say 5 thousand women this past year, then it’s perfectly possible that every women gets to date, ”
Yes! Exactly! , yet that isnt what is happening . this CANNOT be explaiend by the age gap (as you all but acknowlegde) – though again Ive had thsi discussion years ago ok dates dont matter marriage does I get it“Your “data” (if it actually exists) ”
It exists source provided above , data by Yosef Sokol (was YWN article on it trying to debunk it by R Yair Hoffman)
I know I know the data is no good. spare me
I dont think it will convinve you I really get it“I’m not sure what I can say to convince you of the easily observable minhag. ”
Probably nothing
You cna provide data., thats all.But again. I dont need to be convinved Ive heard it all this is not a new topic its ben discussed again and again (though Im a little surprised yu never heard of the complaitn that girls arent gettign dates)
The tumult is now over 10 years oldIT is fair to ask if there are any updates. has the age gap narroewed ? are there less singles? is the problem better ? worse ? same ? etc etc
IF you dont have any ok say no updates we need to keep working at narrowing the gap .Forever nothing else to do. Ok that is your response I haear it loud and clear
IF someone else has updates let them provide them“It is a thing about people not understanding others …”
I’m not sure what you mean
thats my question.Tell me….. I’m all ears.
to be clear yes its annoying. but I havent heard any talk about trying to get it changed. And the Agudah lobbied for the opposite .It seems they arent aware either. sure it is possible they are so out of touch, and/or that as NC understood another poster “but he might have been citing this as an example of powerful Rabbonim putting machmirus over what’s practical for baal habatim. ” is that the case?
” If you think there is, then you don’t understand the problem.”
So never?
We dont have to rehash the tired old stuff IVe heard it all .
“If I had a room of 10 men and 15 women and had to match them up for marriage with no polygamy, you accept that there would be 5 women leftover, right?”
Yes.
“If a population is growing exponentially, you accept that the population born 5 years later at any given time will exceed that born 5 years earlier, right?”
Yes“Do you accept that the frum population is growing exponentially?”
Yes
“If you answered yes to all of these, then mazel tov you believe in the shidduch crisis whether you admit it or not. If you answered no to any of these, then you are objectively wrong.”
No. there are other missing pieces . how many of the men are exiting for other reasons (eg off the derech)
Is the age gap really that wide? (real data says no)
Shiduchim arent “closed rooms” more people are always entering some women marry men older than them. Your analogy is cute and simple but not reflective of realityand not to mention the most obvious as another poster pointed out “a normal girl from a typical family can go six months without dating a boy thats even close” this is not due to the Age gap for the simple reason that people date more than one person.
so in your of room of 10 men and 15 women. If each man sat with say 5 women before choosing one. IT would be very odd if after the dust settles and the 10 men went on their 50 dates 5 women never got dates. This cannot be explained by the age gap..
Again I get that you dont find this convincing and are married to the simple Age gap . fine I am not trying to convince you
You believe there is no other option. Ok
anyone else ?
I too am interested in response to UJM’s OP
“He’s actually correct by the way.”
Partly
1) It isnt Chazal it is a later machlokes as you correctly point out as to what chazal meant by “skiya” what we call sunset or something later (or earlier according to the Yereim) .
Most do hold like Rabbinu Tam that shekiyah is not at sunset, however Rabbienu Tam isnt generally reffered to as “chazal”
nor ormost of the opinions who hold like R”T
however this brings me to the bigger inaccuracy:2)
It is a stretch to say ” to keep Shabbos from when the Sun goes under the horizon (an opinion that has NO basis in Torah or Chazal, ” Again it is a machlokes as to What Chazal held . so chazal certainly MAY have held shekiya is at sunset (or earlier) . and Many (though not most) DO pasken like the Geonim that shkiyah is sunset Most notably perhaps the Gra as well as the Baal Hatanya (in his sidur which was written after his shulchan Aruch, and rishonim incluidng the Ramabm and Rabbinu chananel held this was as well . To say “NO basis is Torah ” [sic] is at best inaccurate if not flat out wrong“In any case, it’s not nogeia to this discussion”
agree completely. particulary since if anything it undermines his point .Though it doesnt matter, if it is “BIG problem” then it is a big problem regardless of exactly when shabbos starts . I was under the impression like you said “the devil they know. It’s the problem they’ve already sorted out,” I was surprised to hear otherwise.
NC
“Closing the gap would help. It’s not something that needs to be tested. ”
while it might help
I dont think that is the main part of the problem I also dont think there s a way to actually close it.
That said I understand their is a dogma associated with this and questioning it and asking for real data, not to mention provinding data that undermines it is met with fierce opposition.My question is at what point do we say ok, it isnt clossable, lets look for another solution. 10 years ? 20 years ? 30 ?
AAQ
The gist of it is we arent oiver even a D’rabanan to prevent someone else’s issur. so while its true “those less committed who might compromise shabbos when it is really hard. ” that is not a reason for us to forgo Tefila Btzibur, Tefilin B’zman etc.I can hear people disagreeing, and the point regarding Shofar on Shabbos is a fair one, (though Im hesitent to expand gezeira chazal more than they did).
I am curious about a point you and other posters have made though
one poster said “And most frum people live in places when sundown is at 430 nowadays. This is a BIG problem.”” you said ” ignores those Yidden who work high intensity jobs and get into major difficulties”IT certainly is difficult. I guess I didnt realize its such a pressing problem
AAQ
FWIW R’ Moshe explicitly rejects this argument. in the Teshuva referenced above
NC
“You’re still incorrect. The minhag in the Litvish community is for girls to be 5-7 years younger than their husbands,”
Is this borne out by data?
The admittedly limited data ive seen (and anecdotally asking around) this does not seem to be the caseMore to the point though.
I’m not sure hashing out the same argument again and again is productiveBottom line, can anyone answer UJM’s question?
This has been discussed again and again and again for well over a decade
here we are all these years later
Did “closing the gap” help ? what has been accomplished?Has it helped?
If not is it time to try something else, or are we still going to insist on the status quo ? If so how long until we next reassess?
NC
“This is a bad argument,”
I guess thats where we disagree. The Agudau (hopefully) responds to its constituents . If tEarly Fridays was a big problem they would know Rabbanoim would know and deal with it. You are suggesting we allow a definite problem to avoid an issue tha t you “are sure there are cases of…” and a few anecdotal well known stories. I dont find that persuasive.
I agree though that it isnt the biggest deal and we’ll adjust ok so daven beyichidus at work put on tefilin at a bedieved time for a few months (anyway we rely on that if theres shaas hadechak etc) it isnt the biggest deal.
I was surprised to see the Teshuva from R” Moshe encouraging they fight it vigourously.
My bigger concern is that it was tried before (year round DST) and it became very unpopular in a few months with congess quickly swithing back.
Happy New year
putting aside the inaccuracies in your post regarding Shkiya
You say “And most frum people live in places when sundown is at 430 nowadays. This is a BIG problem.”Can you eloborate ? while certainly challenging, in what way is it a big problem?
UJM
no its the year before a leap year when it is Dec 5. ie last year“It is not. You are free to run your own business at any time you want”
This is silly
1) many people aren’t in charge of their own hours
2) even those that are are at the whims of the public“With all due respect, I’d give more weigh…”
Thats fair, thats why I introduced that point with “FWIW…” (for what its worth)“What argument? That Shabbos matters more than zman hatefilla? Zero chance.”
Yes. read the teshuva (though he wasn’t talking about your exact concern, which seems like less of a concern than his)
Is that a real issue though among people you know ? they are mechalel shabbos Fridays in the winter? (not is it hard, have they come close etc)
“Why? The Sun will still rise and set as it does. We will just refer to it by a different number on a clock. Nothing is changing astronomically; it’s purely mental as he said.”
Because the “number on the clock” matters more than the Astronomical time
Meaning yes If all of society changed their practice and woke up at 7 instead of 6, “9-5 workday” became 10-6 schools started at 9 instead of 8 ended at 5 instead of 4 etc etc then he’d be rightbut that isnt what will happen (obviously) We (society) will keep waking up at 6 with work day being 9-5 etc etc but with difficulties with zemanim
Will we adjust? for sure It isnt the biggest deal but society is largely driven by the clock not the sun. It is bizzare to suggest otherwise
what you say “We will just refer to it by a different number on a clock. ” is what drives society while yes nothing changes astronomically (obviously) we dont fucntion astronomicallyAnd memah nafshach, if the clock doesn’t matter. S owho cares if the clock changes teice a year. Ignore it! after all “Nothing is changing astronomically” You can do it today chaneg your wtch back to DST 2 PM becomes 1 PM go to sleep. go to work tomorrow at 10 AM EST ie 9 on your clock . Tell your bos like AAQ that your coming in hour late tomoorw (he said early but presumably he menat late) problem solved.
sure it will be confusing if others refer to your 9 as 8, but it shouldn’t be confusing nothing is changing astronomically its all purely mental(dont get caught up on these exact times probably arent any real 9-5 jobs left, and I dont know what time you get up just using 6 as example)
A few points
1) “One proposal they are considering is to switch to year round Daylight Savings”
Ive been trying to find exactly what their proposing, while saw they agreed with social media posts to stop changing clocks, Couldn’t find any mention of which change they would stop . did you see any clar discussiion? ( To be fair I doubt they know what they want)2) “but it seems when goyim talk about ending the “spring forward, fall back” what the talking about is year-round DST.”
That is generally true, but the medical organizations prefer year round Standard time which is more in tune with our circadian rhythm. People of course liek the later sunsets but in the 70’s when there was year round DST it became wildly unpopular quickly.
while annoying there is a reason why we have this setup . People dont have such long memories3) “The change is merely psychological.”
this is a bizzare claim .
It isnt true halachicly socially, physiologically. I’m not sure what it means
and of course it is against the Gedolim see below4) “People feel like Shabbos isn’t “as much of a problem” just because it’s the devil they know.”
Yes. Of course.
Obviously if there is year round DST we will figure it out. But it will be challenging . In Detroit sunrise will be close to 9 AM (though they will probably revert to Central time where they belong)
also FWIW R’ Moshe rejects this argument5) see “Agudath Israel Helps Stop Permanent “Daylight Saving” Bill, Exceedingly Disruptive to Orthodox Jewish Life”
Where the Agudah describes their advocacy on this issue and posts a Teshuva from R” Moshe encoruaging fighting against Year round DST
Thanks for briniging it up
it HAS been a whileyears ago I pointed out some flaws in the idea behind the Age gap TM theory.
I predicted that therefore efforts to close the “age gap” would not help .
for reasons not entirely clear to me this really upset people at the time, and they refused to entertain other solutions that might help (that may be why they were so upset)Since then Yosef sokol has released data essentially debunking the premise
At the time I said lets revisit this in 10 years (sadly knowing that were just kicking the can down the road)
has it been that long already ?
would love to hear an update from NAsi or @Az and its other ardent defenders
Thank you for the reminder
To calculate take Tekufas Tishrei according to Shmuel which this year was October 7 count 60 days (October 7 was day #1) giving the satrt day yom chamishi of this week
Yom Chamishi starts Wed night with Maariv, thus at Maariv on Wednesday night Dec 4th is the start date“The reason we sit low is because it is a sign of availus and has nothing to do with comfort.”
This is absolutely incorrect
See Yoreh Deah hilchos aveilus
Avi
Even before the Holocaust, there was a disdain for Yiddish. It was called Jargon.
Not sure why this is news. Sure anti senites exist. Mazel tov
“Ubi, President needs to lead, especially in international crises. See the discussion between Yidden and Shmuel regarding the King.”
I disagree (and the yidden were criticized) but I hear the perceived advantage of a strong executive unencumbered (Ok less encumbered) by laws.
What I dont understand is how this helps commies. Are you saying it helps foregign commies like china? Because that isnt what BY1212 said. s/he said
BY1212
“Typical communist dictatorial claptrap.”
I understand why people may feel an unencumbered executive with fewer checks and balances makes for better leadership
but how does limiting a President’s pwer or as you put it “handicap”ing him lead to a communist dicatorial claptrap?
CA
Happy to help“Why would anyone go to the zoo this chol hamoed?”
some people like zoos, many children do and even adults.” The only day that it’s not an erev something is Thursday”
There is no issur to go to a zoo on Erev shabbos or yom tov” and why waste it going to the zoo ”
Again, some people like the zoo“(especially since the Bronx zoo is only free on Wednesday)”
Wednesday is yom Tov, Orthodox Jews dont generally travel on yom tov, so the free zoo on Wednesday doesn’t help us. Plus many live far away from teh Bronx zoo, so much so that it may be cheaper than paying for their local zoo than to travel to the free Bronx zooSam
any idea why Hashem is using a Goyish numbering system to point to a passuk?
Moreover why is He referring to April as “4” is that being over an aseh according to the Ramban? I understand you don’t care for mitzvos but Hashem?
“This might be a fine point, the kind that you’d dismiss if you see it from a stranger but would give more thought of it came from someone you admire in some way. Therefore, I cannot help this last problem.”
This is the point we disagree. Your point is contrived. (iv’e heard it from others)
Why does an earthquake/comet/Thunder/lightning get a bercaha but eclipse doesnt?My answer: “I dont know why chazal didnt establish one” maybe its a siman ra? (rainbow is different the text of the veracha isnt on the rainbow per se rather on Hashem keeping His promise kivayachol) But I dont find this convincing, in short I dont know why.
your answer is because it isnt actively coming across Hashem’s creation and it doesnt explain display of His Power and Rule.
why not? kacha“The Yesod is very clear and it clears everything else. The Bracha is about coming across the Hand of Hashem.
There’s עושה מעשה בראשית blessings for when you come across original creations, and כחו וגברתו or דיין האמת when someone has come across the display of His Power and Rule, בורא מיני for witnessing His support.”
Eclipse seems to fulfill BOTH of these.
You aren’t explaining why an eclipse isn’t one of them
Why isn’t a horse galloping? Might be a good question but not the topic of this post
Halevai
“But a phenomenon which is not a mark of creation, nor a consumption of Hashem’s world, but an effect, doesn’t elicit a Bracha. In what way did you encounter Hashem’s hand now more than before? In fact, there are many enjoyments that we don’t bless Hashem upon enjoying them.”
Your explanation is a bit arbitrary, and seems forced to fit the conclusion.
Why isnt an eclipse part of creation? Who then set the sun and moon in motion?
Why is The blotting out of the sun midday less impressive than an earthquake?
which category does earthquake fall into is it a mark of creation or a consumption of Hashem’s world? It doesnt seem to fit your narrow criteria
ditto for a shooting star/comet ?Chazal said those get berachos and eclipse doesnt, so be it, but your categories seem a bit forced
““molad is not an astronomical observation, but simply adding a fixed average lunar month time that may be hours off a “real” rosh chodesh”
Potentially days off. The only rosh chodesh that is directly tied to the molad, is rosh chodesh Tishrei (better known as Rosh Hashanana).
If the molad occurs in the afternoon, , R”H is pushed to the next day. If the next day is sunday, Wednesday or Friday, R”H is pushed yet another day (Lo Adu Rosh)
so If the Molad occurs 12:01 noon on Shabbos. Rosh Hashana (“Rosh chodesh tishrei” ) will not begin until the start of Monday (ie sunday night) over a day later.
Molados of Teves and shevat in particulary can be off by a long time, over 2 days potentially(Of course even if the molad was exact, Rosh Hashana/rosh chodesh Tishrei occured on the day of the molad and an eclipse occurred, still wouldn’t recite Hallel on that day)
Avira
you do not dissapoint
You are now postign comments that you must know not to be true“Ubiq, do you think the chachamim would have fought the romans when they went to meet them? ”
Yes of coruse, you must have heard of Rabi akiva and Bar Kochaba
“Milchama was a strategy when feasible.”
Yes exactly, as I said“But did the zionists do the first two options? No – they were like the foolish baryonim who went straight to fighting.”
Again, you cant possibly know so little about Israel history, Balfour declaration was obtained without fighting, There was plenty of Zionist diplomacy“And during the Holocaust, fighting would have only ensured that no one survived r”l… Look at what happened in Warsaw.”
There were survivors from Warsaw ghetto uprising. there were (almost?) none from Treblinka
You cant possibly not know this but your wrong ideology forces you to cherry pick and even fabricate pointsI find it fascinating
Note at no point did I say fighting was ALWAYS the correct approach
Avira
You provide another great example of what I mentioned in my first comment
“The problem with these discussions is everyone has their preconceived notions and cherry picks Pieces mamarei chazal to fit .”you recently said “Smerel – that was AFTER the gezerah min hashomayim was batul and they were given permission to fight. If such a thing had happened during the Holocaust – great, but it didn’t”
Yet In one of your earliest posts in this thread YOU said “Chazal learned the parsha of Yaakov and eisav before meeting with the Roman rulers, to learn and remind themselves of the yesodos, the ways one must behave in galus to be safe.”
Of course Yaakov prepared for milchama, yet you cherry pick and deny milchama as an option
not to mention the idea of milchama is of course brought halacha lemaseh in Orach Chaim 329:6You have your preconceived notion which doesnt have to fit with halacha nor mamarei chazal that YOUI cited
It makes these conversations pointless, though fascinating
T
“It’s more than a bad idea, it’s an abrogation of the ratzon Hashem”
could be, but unlike a clear/cut and dry halcha, “ratzon Hashem” is harder to ascertain. That same gemara says all who live in chutz Laa’aretz is as they do Avoda zara, Zionists focus on thsi gemra and come up with tirutzim why the other isnt really Avodas Hashem you do the reverse. Im sure you have very creative tirutzim (probably better than the ones youve shared so far, – note I’m not asking you to share them Ive heard them before I rely on them, I dont live in EY)
AAQ
“With all talking past each other, there are some statements here that look like real debate!”
First half is correct
Second is not.
There is no real debate. There has been no new information uncovered. ALL the se arguments have been made over and over for over 70 years.
Nobody is changing minds.I do find it amusing though when in an effort to defend an untenable position all sorts of strange arguments get mad.
you do highlight a great one, that I pointed out earlier
You point # 3 though is only partially correct, the UN voted to create a State, the possessors who conquered Eretz Yisrael (the British) had tunred over the issue to the UN.
For reasons yet to be explained, although normally Kivush of land is a kinyan, this is an exceptionAvira
“Ubiq, you’re going back to the knee jerk “no issur no problem” thing. ”
nope, and I explicitly said that “So Its just a bad idea” I’m not sure on what planet “bad idea” means “no problem”
Avira
Your moving the goal posts
Lets back up
Square said “The Three Oaths are Agadic Midrash, and therefore they are
NOT Halachically obligatory [they are not legally binding].”UJM replied “he Oaths are quoted L’Halachah in numerous sources, including but not limited to: Piskei Riaz”
I commented how unusual this topic is, as I cant think of any other halachic discussion where a Piskei Riaz was te first mareh makom
You replied “is that they aren’t dinim, but they are realities that chazal warn us about.”
To which I replied “So Its just a bad idea, not assur.”
so we agree! . The shalosh shavuos are not a halchick issur in the classical sense, just like Square pointed out.
. Much like there is no halacha obligating one to engage in Tefila*/doron/milchama when in galus and dealing with goyim (your example, though one I was surprised to see you mention) , it is good advice, in fact the best advice, who else to get advice from, if our mesora. Same is true here,
As an aside the whole Ben Hecht thing is odd. Ben Hecht was an ardent Zionist. He was opposed to Labor Zionism, using his book as an anti-zionist argument is nonsensical
(* tefila of course is an obligaiton bshas tzara, but not because of Yaakov)
Avira
“Ubiq, there are many answers as to why it’s not mentioned in the rif, rosh and rambam’s yad. One of them, which my rebbe rav belsky said, is that they aren’t dinim, but they are realities that chazal warn us about. If we do X, we will he hunted, like the gemara says, as animals in the field. Slaughtered. And that’s precisely what happened.”
sure there are reasons for anything you want to be true. Though these reasons, like the one your Rebbe Z”L gave tend to be weak. you say thye “aren’t dinim” there goes the entire argument. So Its just a bad idea, not assur.
and the bad idea is further weekned when you consider that its not like there want Jew hunting going on in Europe pre State.
Again I’m not trying to convince you of anything. Though Hopefully you can see that these arguments tend to be a bit forced and built on preconceived notions. You arguments n this thread are PERFECT examples
BTW This works in both directions
The Satmar Rebbe had his shita, but R’ Aryeh Kaplan disagreed and he must be right because he “was a GENIUS, and his words should be listened to.”
The problem with these discussions is everyone has their preconceived notions and cherry picks Pieces mamarei chazal to fit .
I can’t think of any other issue where a “Piskei Riaz” is cited as THE first Halachic source. Never mind that it isnt brogught in Rif, Rosh Rambam (halachic works igeres teiman becomes Kodehs Kedoshim to fit the agenda), Tur, Mechaber . its a Piskei Riaz!
Another great example
“The Balfour declaration (and even the UN partition plan) are irrelevant because when the zionists took over, the british were no longer baalei batim on the land.”
It is hard to imagine a reasonable person making such an argument. It is clear that halacha recognizes kivush as a form of kinyan. Britain conquered Palestine, they handed the “problem” over to the UN the Un voted to create Israel. Simple, finished.
But no for this we ignore kivush and you need permission of neighboring countries. why? Because otherwise it doesn’t fit the preconceived agenda.I’m not trying to convinve you that you are wrong, I can’t. My point is when you see htese types of arguemnts (Especially the scond) we arent dealing with logic, rather emotion.
ujm
“Why would you say it doesn’t hold water?”for several reasons here a re a few:
1) I dont understand the connection to kibud av, because she is patur in kibud av she should forgo the oppurtunity to be mevatel potentially 70 year bad gzar din? Again. I’m not saying she is chayav to go. But if she isnt doing anything why doesnt she go? I dont get the kibud av connection
2) Even if patur generally women I know do mitzvos they are patur from sukkah, Lulav shofar . (With a beracha). So ok they are “patur” from saying amen yehi shemie rabba becasue of some hekish? gezeira shava? Mah matzinu? to kibud av, why not do it anyway
3) If her husband isnt makpid she is chayav in kibud av
4) It doesnt answer why single/divorced women dont generally goUJM
non of your minor points hold water
1) At a chasuna it’s usually difficult to have an area for a minyan where you can have a mechitza.
I’m not sure that an ad hoc minyan needs a mechitza, and even if want one EVERY chasuna Ive been to has had a mechitza, and even if for whatever reason that mechitza cant be used (band is noisy or something) ok so they dont daven stand quietly answer amen yehei shmei rabba
2) And, while it might involve less effort than taking care of multiple children, even after the children left the house the wife’s first obligation is to serve her husband. (That’s the reason she’s halachicly exempt from Kind Av V’Eim, while married, since she must serve her husband first.)
agree, I’m limiting my question to when she isnt engaged in prior commitments say Friday night the table is set, the food is warming why not go down the block to chap arein an amen yehei shmei rabba or 2
Its a good question
Although clearly not a chiyuv. what a zechus, Amen Yehey shemie rabba can destroy a bad gzar din, oopurtunity to say kedusha even a “simple” amen.
I understand when there are children at home, that is her primary tafkid but for the majority of her life often there is a shul close by instead of sitting around at home why not get extra easy zechusim.
It is very puzzling
Strangest of all, is when they are there. At a chausna or simcha there is often a minyan formed the women are there they can join answer amen etc , instead they hang around and shmooz yet it isnt even on the radar. I find this very strange
It is hard to imagine how many Jewish lives would have been lost in the past few months alone, not to mention the past decade or so if not for the Iron dome which Obama is responsible for
Obama has likely save more Jewish lives than any individual since Esther Hamalka.
Cant even begin to imagine the zechus he must have
Fun game!!
“If you were a non-Jew, would you want your town or city,
where you have lived your entire life, to become like Boro Park?”– I would want a country where people are free to live where they want
“Would you want all the stores to be closed on Saturdays and Jewish Holidays?”
– I would want people to be free to open and close their stores whenever they want
“Would you want kosher food stores,
where the prices are higher than for non-kosher foods?”– I would want store owners to proice thier foods as they please
” Would you want public signs in a language that you do not understand?”
All Public municipal signs should be in english plus whatever language there is a need/demand for“Would you want all your neighbors to speak Yiddish or Hebrew?
And even when they speak English,
they use many words that you do not understand?”I would want them to speak whatever they want
“Would you want all your neighbors to be people who
are not interested in forming meaningful friendships
with non-Jews, or even talking to non-Jews?”I would want to be friendly with them
“Would you want to live in a place where most
celebrations and events are for Jews-ONLY?”
Private events can be for whoever is invited“Would you want to become a minority in
the place where you lived your entire life?”– I wouldn’t want other groups baned or restricted
Just becasue you are biggoted doesnt mean all goyim are, or more importantly that they should be.
Let me know if you have any other questions“If you were a non-married non-Jew,
would you want all your neighbors to be people
who you could never marry or even date?”– I wouldn’t want there to be some restriction that my neighbors can only be people I’d date, that sounds creepy to even suggest
Would you want to be used as a “Shabbos Goy”?”
sureLashon kodesh is read Right to LEft
So Sinwar is actually Rawnis
Raw because he is a gangster who doesnt fully cook his food rather eats it partly raw like Ben Drosai
Nis because he has a life steeped in chet , chet is gematria egoz which is a type of nut or nis in Yiddish
Funnybone
1. Why isn’t it a psik reisha dnicha lei?
– OF course its nicha lei, You want the compressor to turn on when the fridge gets warm, thats how fridges work. If it doesnt do that you need a new fridge.
2. If it’s lo niche lei, can you rely on it or only Al yidei akum?
– No psik reisha delo nicha lei is not automatically mutarMeno is right on older fridges where it takes some time for compressor to go on, so not neccerarliy if you open fridge for short while would it trigger the compressor thus it wasnt a psik reisha.
Today though apparently there are all sort of monitor and sensors that are triggered ever tiem door opens, it isnt just the light/compressor.
As for keeping it in Shabbos mode all the time, the manuals all say that ruins the fridge which makes sense, these functions are there for a reason