Forum Replies Created
Golders Greener, I’m not sure which post you reaD, but the post that i started mentioned numerous poskim [Tzitz Eliezer, Yabia Oimer, R’ S. Z. Auerbach, Rabbi Y. S. Elyashiv, plus] who do not seem to think that shoes are included in clothing for kovod shabbos. You can find my post by scrolling down to the bottom of the screen, and selecting “Shabbos,” from the topic menu, and you will see it under recent discussions.
One more point, Mrs. Katz.
I’m not sure what goes on in E”Y, but it may be worthwhile offering your siblings there some financial help.
Mrs. Katz, I feel that the question is far more than what kibud Ov Ve’aim includes, or paper plates and shabbos shoes.
You mentioned that you had a trying time over yom tov, so I assume that more than these three trivial issues were “at stake”, especially since you mention that she told your children about the shoes rather than yourself.
It sounds to me that your mother in law has a rather meddling personality, if she involved herself in how you spend your money, and she obviously does not understand limits if she crititized you to your children.
If you only see her from yom tov to yom tov, than the best idea is probably to give in, it simply is not worth the fight with these sort of people. [you could potentially buy your children shabbos shoes, and just let them wear their weekday shoes when they meet your mother in law].
If however you meet her regularly, it is probably not such a good idea to give in, because you are empowering her. Today it is shoes and plates, tomorrow she will suggest that you should not send your sons or daughters to learn in eretz Yisroel, and the next day she will tell you not to take an eidim/mechutan who wears a bekeshe/frak, etc…
It is important for you to realise that she needs help, and if you have her on your head regularly, it may be worthwhile talking to a rov who knows both of you and seeing if there is anything that you can do. It can be very very dangerous to have a controlling personality around.
You have missed out a very important part of the question, which is how your husband fits in with all of this.
If your husband wants to listen to his mother, then it is your job as his wife to obey HIS wishes in these particular areas, i.e. to stop using paper plates, but it is important for you to make sure he realises that it is not a good idea to give a meddling person too much control. again, you might be better off speaking to soemone who knows both of you to discuss things with him.
The best eitza is to reply respectfully, i just wanted to mention that i ran a tag on Shabbos shoes recently, and it seemed that most poskim assume that kovoid shabbos applies only to clothes not shoes, so you might be better off being mekayem a mitzvas asseih de’oiraysa of kibbud eim, and scrapping the shoes. [unless it is paticularly important for your husband or your sons, or something.]
You can find my post by looking under Shabbos.
Sorry oomis 1105, the story really happened. i know which school it was.
unfourtunatley suspending a child today isn’t always such a good idea, most of them just enjoy a vacation for the time they get off. It depends a lot on the child, but with a conficent shild it is not an option.
By the way, the children involved were not completely responsible for the fire departmant being called, the mains of the alarm showed clearly that the alarm was sounded on purpose, it was a couple of teachers, who were sure that it was not a drill that called them.
in an ideal world no teacher would ever discipline a child unfairly, for one very simple reason – no child would ever play up.
chinuch is VERY VERY VERY complicated. no punishment is ever given without the teacher thinking it through many times, as to how it will affect this child, and how it will affect the rest of the class.
for instance if a child is sent down a couple of grades, you can trust me that we have taken into account the humiliation, we have thought about how confident the child is, how it will affect him, in which grades he has siblings, or even nephews, etc…
When this child shoes were removed, think for a second of the counsellor. one cannot allow cheating in a camp race. the obvious punishment would have been to stop him from participating in that day’s races, but very often these children will just make more trouble if they sitting on the side, and you also need a punishment that will strongly discourage anyone else from doing it. I am not saying that i would do it, but all in all i understand the counsellor.
I would like to make a number of points,
a) I teach fifth grade, I do not spend my time tying laces, started this thread on behalf of someone else, who is very compassinate, and spends a lot of the day helping children with various tasks
b) I do not think that it so unreasonable to think before you buy your children shoes that the teacher will probably end up tying the laces many, many more times than you.
c) I find it wrong that many children in the third or fourth grades still do not know how to their laces.
d) remember that the teacher is tying the same child’s laces again and again. this is not going to encourage her to like your child.
e) I personally prefer teaching slightly older children, I do not know if I would have the patience for younger ones.
f) sorry no fancy name, but i am used to typing on autocorrect.
g) I am a little upset and offended by some of the sarcasm. i also think that it is unreasonable to have names like “only normal guy around”, and i am interested in knowing the moderators red lines.
h) this conversation has come up numerous times in the staff room, it is not a new one.
you don’t mind me asking, but why did you spend so much money getting there?
Dear Syog le’chochmah,
Really really sorry, i did not mean any sarcasm, all i was trying to say was that i do not know what goes on in Golder Green, but in my school, ironically, they insist that boys come in shoes, not crocs or sneakers, etc, so even if golder greener does not a reason to buy his children shoes, were they to be in my school he would have to buy them shoes anyway, very sorry for the misunderstanding.
Watch out for further posts, i have a more to say on this subject.
by the way, i bet S’yog buys her kids shoes becuase the school insists on it
sending down a class only two classes need to know about, shoes the whole school plus can see. anyway Sam2 says that is the most demeaning.
There is a very choshuve litvishe kehilla in Englane where the old Rov, who was an Odom Godoil ad me’oid didn’t allow prents to buy shabbos shoes for boys before they were bar mitzvah, he felt it caused jealousy.
i assumme that it does not have a mekoir in halacha.
one more story, it doens not really belong here, but i will write it anyway.
my son’s school also make thme bring their sneakers for sports, and if they don’t have sneakers then they cannot join in.
If they don’t bring their sneakers for two or three weers then they have take off their shoes, … and sit at the side, watching.
If they don’t bring their sneakers for even longer, then eventually they have to take their shoes to the principal’s office, and leave them there for the rest of the day.
Anyway, once at PTa the teacher remarked to us that we should buy one of our boys sneakers, since he doesn’t have any. we were very surprised, since we knew thta he had sneakers. It turned out that my son hated doing sports, and he decided that if anyone else cannot find their sneakers he’ll let them use his. he’s quite a Tzaddik, isn’t he?
After the teacher threatened to what they do in Golder Green – make him join in the spoirts in his socks, did things change.
one more point,
when all is said and done there are occasions which call for confiscating shoes. if a child spends the whole lesson deliberatelly opening and closing the velcro, or is obviously playing with his shoes under the desk, then i take thme away. Still, obviously, i normally give thme back for recess, or if not they can always spend recess in the library. i don’t make them go outside.
one notable exception was when i was subbing a class, and the boys were meant to be working at their desks. One boy kept on coming over and driving me mad with stupid questions, and he was walking around in his socks. Eventually i got mad and asked him where his shoes are, and he told me that he came to school without them. I marched over to his desk and opened it, and there on top were his shoes, so i felt i had no choice, and i took them to the principal, who with the parnts permission kept them for three days and sent him down a couple of classes until the regular teacher came back.
in all honesty i still feel bad about it, especailly since i know that he wasn’t the only boy who was responsible for the chaos in the classroom.
The most embarrasing stories happen when i confuse parents.
for instance, there was a kid in my class who always came in really farshloched, (he left half the buttons on his shrt open, plus!) and it really bothered me, and one day at a chasuna i see him all really dressed up, so i went over to his mother, and said half sarcastically how happy i was to see him fully dressed, and it wasn’t his mother …. boy was that embarrasing.
maybe this should be on sticky?
thanks everyone,especially Sam2 and avi. k
does not sound right to me. it’s also a major breach of tzniyus
sorry only normal person around, but i have been teaching for a pack of years, and unfourtunately teachers do not have the liberty of giving in to tears. Anyway, i know that i am playing devil’s advocate, because i agree that sending a child outside without shoes is disgusting.
Sorry oomis1105, but i am sure that a teacher is allowed to confiscate things. and it wouldn’t be more geneiva to take away a cellphone or a shoe!
AS A teacher for many years I think that this is a disgusting punishment and I really agree with you, BUT,
I once took a couple of grades to one of these fancy play places where all the boys had to take off their shoes, and guess what? while we were there there was an electrical fault and we had to leave the building, and everyone was left in socks, without their nosh or packed lunches, freig nisht! There were a couple of really talented teachers with us, and they took the boys to a park, and they really had a blast. In fact, the boys had to return home without their shoes, and a couple (i guess those who didn’t have shabbos shoes?) came the next day to school with just an extra pair of socks. And it such fun that NOONE COMPLAINED.
So yes, i think it is disgusting, but i think that a lot of it is up to your attitude, and if you convince your son that it wasn’t so bad, i doubt he would care so much.