Out Of The Mailbag – To YW Editor (Crying For The Older Bochrim)

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yw logo2.jpgDear Yeshivaworld,

I am writing as do many others, for the sole purpose of “venting”.

We read on a weekly basis in the Yated about the sad plight of older single girls who supposedly cry themselves to sleep at night because nobody wants them.

I feel it’s about time the older single guys such as myself get our chance.

Why don’t they realize that they haven’t just graduated seminary? As 20 year-olds they had a right to be picky. They were probably too picky and turned down their best chances. I recommend reading the new “Mountain Climbers” book. There are two stories about girls who didn’t necessarily get what the wanted, THEY MADE IT WORK! That’s all it takes.

Remember, the only person who thinks just like you, has the same opinions as you, and wants the same exact things that you do, is the person you see in the mirror on a daily basis. She has everything backwards!

Signed,

“You know me, You already turned me down” (No longer in BMG, Had to go to work).

Note From Yeshivaworld: Have something on your mind? Put it in writing and possibly have it posted on Yeshivaworld. Simply contact Yeshivaworld with your story. There is no guarantee that it will be posted – and anything submitted is subject to be edited by the editor.


82 COMMENTS

  1. I really feel for the writer of this letter, but I’d like to add two points:

    1. Do not blame the girls for their “pickiness” – most of that blame falls completely on the parents

    2. Ummm… since when are the boys less “picky” than the girls?? It’s a two-way street here, and I don’t know which gender is more choosy…

    Does anyone agree with me?

  2. it is easier said than done. older girls come with psychological hangups as older boys do.its my opinion that more of the older girls are occupied with by far better paying positions than the older boys .this presents a problem ,although surmaintble,
    as long as both boy and girl are working ,or doing things together in a way that each feels they are bringing something to the marriage.
    the problem is the learned boy who although learned , in todays age does not favorably with the working girls. you would think that a girl would be happy that she is marrying a talmud chochem and live happily ever after.
    not many girls like this situation.yes, lakewood has exceptions , but truthfully not many. the average lakewood boy is in trouble unless he studies for parnossah or business.sometimes it leads to a late start which create, consequently the late marriages, if they materialize.
    i am truly perplexed to see that the rabbonim of our generation are doing very little to alleviate this problem. for the parents into this situation ,ife is a living nightmare.

  3. I agree with the writer. I think another problem is the rate of divorce in our heimishe community. Every time I hear about a divorce from a relatively new marriage with about a kid and a half, I feel like banging down their doors and shaking them around so badly so that they wake up and realize that in order to make things work, you have to ‘work’ at it. We have become such a soft society that as soon as the first sign of ‘trouble’, they drop out.

    It’s time to teach our youngsters that HaShem is constantly testing us with everything that comes our way. The holy Ramchal says “All the happenings of this world are tests for us”.

    And those that refuse to face these challenges are failures.

    Of course there are always exceptions, like when health is involved and one side was not notified. But what about the poor innocent neshomos that were brought into this world who will now have to live mixed up lives because of the parents selfishness.

    Botei Dinim should not be allowed to just write Gittin. A tedious process should determine if this couple shouldn’t got hrough major counseling first.

  4. I think you are all right and at the same time you are all saying things that are wrong. Just because a girl says no to a guy, doesn’t mean she’s picky. Gys are traditionally the more picky ones. while there is certainly pickiness on both sides, by both the guys/girls and their parents, most people do not fall into this category. I am a bochur who is not picky in the least and I know guys who are very picky. I discuss just about every date that I go on with my rosh yeshiva with whom i feel very close. I think that is key. There has to be someone in your life who has experience with these matters and who knows you who you can come to at any time to make sure you are being picky enough and not too picky. I have to say, though, that the author of this article is perhaps not putting his opinions down accurately. you don’t have to “just make it work” with someone. there has to be a connection and you have to feel completely good about your decision. That said, you do have to give it a chance.

  5. You don’t “find” a perfect shidduch–you make it perfect.

    All you really NEED to look for in a young lady is good middos and Yiras ShoMaim–the rest is up to you.

    All you really NEED in a bochur is the same plus a good grounding in Torah.

    There is a fear out there of geeting involved with someone who is rotteninside–internet…etc. You also have to offer some assurance that you are not one of those.

  6. #7 (Alter Bachur): You may be right – open-minded boys are not hard to find.

    HOWEVER!! Open-minded YESHIVA-TYPE boys ARE hard to find. In fact, they are an endangered species… like the bald eagle and the black rhinoceros.

  7. on another note, I remember when I was in the shidduch scene. Being a Chasidic boy learning in a Chasidishe yeshiva, girls names were not discussed between my friends as they are in ‘other’ yeshivos. I know of not one unmarried boy or girl from my class and up that’s not married because they haven’t found the ‘right’ one.

    Rav Miller Z”L used to answer when people asked him ‘How will I know that it’s the right one’?

    To which he’d answer, ‘When you marry him/her, you’ll know that it’s the right one’.

    I have brothers that did learn in more yeshivashe yeshivos and their dating process was completely different than mine. B”H we are all happily married today. But the endless dating was not normal. How much do you really find out anyway when you date? If dating was such a great test on how life works, then the goyishe world who date for years, would have a maximum of 5% divorce rate. So you see that it’s all a sham.

    If you look around at the world, you’ll see that in the Chasidishe world there are less singlen older boys and girls than in the rest of the yiddishe velt.

    Why is that?

    I believe that this constant dating and playing with the nerves of poor boys and girls while some of them actually play psycho-analysis with each other is creating part of this problem.

    Daven to HaShem that He lead you correctly and be ready to work at the marriage and all will be ok. Nobody can claim that it’s all easy street all the time. Part of the Nachas we have, is when we look back at the years when things may not have looked so great, and we still kept together and worked at it.

    A Jewish marriage is not a partnership where when something doesn’t work like you thought it would, you split. That’s for the goyim.

  8. Torahis1,
    Your comment was great….until your innate dislike for all things Torahdik shown through, “and not not for how many years her Tatty will support us, or how rail thin/anorexic she is, or whether her mother uses plasticware on the shabbos table.”

    Perhaps everyone should follow your advice and only look for girls who’s fathers are Aniyim, who are overweight, and who only use real sterling silver – the opposites of what you rail against.

    However, if the fathers are Aniyim, it doubt they’ll have real sterling!!

  9. alter bachur- what I mean is boys that are willing to listen to ideas(thats not coming from a best friend or well known shadchan) …please contact me as well

  10. My two cents.

    What is wrong with being picky. Both older females (see. torahis; above #8) and older males should be picky.
    Choose two important qualities in a prospective spouse that you feel you really need to make a marriage work and be very picky about them. However, in order to find an individual that has these two qualities, you may have to be give in on other things. This may not really be giving in, because you have already determined that they are not so neccessary to make a marriage work.

    By example, if you think that to make a marriage work the other side needs to be an extermely good looking individual and have a good job, then look for people who have these two qualities and disregard everything else.

    Because this is a major decision and you probably have not been there and done that (or if you have, you probably need some help making sure the next decision is right), you probably should consult a Rav/Rosh Yeshiva/Manhig who is a Baal Sechel, realistic and a Glatte Mensch.

    Just remember not everything always appears perfect and if you are a decent individual who can give in and are not lazy, eventually you will have something perfect for you.

  11. Bochur24 – What makes your Rosh Yeshiva qualified to dicuss your ‘pickiness’ when dealing with the girls? Has he ever met these girls. If someone gives you dating advice regarding a specific girl, that person MUST know both parties.

  12. Yes, the Single Girls and Single Women are too picky.

    Yes, the Single Boys and Single Men are too picky.

    But that is not the only problem.

    The biggest problem is lack of skills in relating to their mate or prospective mate.

    The divorce rate is much too hight. Gets ARE too easy to receive.

    I once heard a saying, that one should look at his enemy or competition and learn from them.

    Well, I have a friend, a non-Jew, who is a psychologist. He attends a church of a somewhat larger size. They EMPLOY a FULL-TIME Staff of well-trained therapists, lead by a pastor/psychologist. These people men and women spend many hours with each partner BEFORE marriage discussing the skills he or she will need to make a good husband/wife.

    Sure, we have chosson classes and kallah classes, but they are often focused almost entirely on Taharas Hamishpacha, which though it is vitally important, is nowhere near enough. Young Chassanim and Kallahs need coping skills to learn to cope with things that do not go their way. They need parenting skills and relationship skills.

    All too often the chosson learns mistakes from the false bragging of fellow buchurim.
    All to often the kallah learns bad lessons from the modern magazines that have flooded the market, offering some horrible advice on how to have a good marriage.

    Often we have a spoiled young woman, and a spoiled young man, suddenly shoved together into a home and they have to learn these things through trial and error. However, all the media out there is based upon strengthening the “Me” part of the relationship, and blaming the other person for everything, focusing on, “Well, don’t I DESERVE blah, blah, blah.”

    NO YOU DON’T. If they learn to focus on the other person’s happiness, they have at least a small chance.

    Now, you say, “What does this have to do with finding a shidduch? These are skills that we should have once we are married, but first we need to get married.”

    Wrong. Each person often senses this “fahkert” attitude in the other during the shidduch meeting, and correctly rejects this person.

    Both the potential Chosson and the potential Kallah properly rejects these loosers, (each other) seeing that the other is not emotionally ready to marry. But, neither looks in the mirror and sees those same selfish, self-centered traits in themselves.

    We need to lear from those other people, and offer much more than the standard Chosson and Kallah classes. We need to offer REAL Counseling to both.

    Not only that, but REAL Counseling to the young man and young woman starting a year or more BEFORE they start the shidduch process would be a good idea.

    My suggestion for successful shiduchim and happy marriages:

    1) Each person beginning serious counseling at least a year before the age for a shidduch.

    2) Each couple receiving REAL counseling (individual) between the Vort/L’Chaim and the wedding date.

    3) Each newly married couple going for REAL Counseling for the first THREE years.

    In my opinion, this will result in:

    More people being emotionally ready to be someone’s bashert.

    More people actually finding their bashert.

    More people making it though those first 3 very hard years.

    We also need our Rabbonim to RERQUIRE Counseling before being maskim to write a get, though, unfortunately, by then it is usually badly broken, and sometimes too late due to the get coming usually after the civil divorce.

    But, please folks, let us do away with the foolish stigma we put on counseling/thrapy, and use this wonderful tool to help our communities and the hurting individuals in it.

    And, remember, an older bochur and a older unmarried woman are PEOPLE WHO ARE HURTING. These people are in pain.

    They are rejected often because they truly are emotionally not ready for marriage, and the prospective mate recognizes this.

    If we provide REAL Counseling to unmarried boys and men, and umarried girls and women, then when they meet their real bashert, they may not reject them, for they will be recognized as ready for marriage.

    Ah…. problem… WE DON’T HAVE MANY qualified frum counselors. That is the first problem we need to address. That is the first step. We need many frum men and women to get the training for counseling.

  13. we can go on and on about this issue and still get no where!!!

    Truth be told, I dated like many others did, with out knowing what is most important in a marriage!!(when doing research)

    after dating for roughly 7-8 years I woke up one day, what am I doing wrong?

    I then realized that learning how to prioritize is the fundamental thing guys and gals alike need to learn.

    I see myself much closer to finding my bashert and b’h you will too…

    I will follow up with an email from a dear friend and teacher,

  14. My best friend just got engaged after only a month and a half of dating. She met the guy through the Jewish dating system, a Shidduch, and they are an amazingly well-suited couple. What I don’t understand is, how after such a short while can they possibly know enough to decide to live with each other for the rest of their lives? It can take years to know that you have found the right one. I don’t understand how people “just know” in as little as a month or two. Can you explain?

    Answer:

    A guy is sitting in a bar and a girl comes and sits down nearby. They catch each other’s eye and smile.

    The guy says “Hi, my name’s Hank. Can I buy you a drink?”

    The girl says, “Before you do that, I would like to know if you are thinking of marriage or just looking for something casual. I am ready to settle down and would rather not waste my time. Also, are you the family type? I really want to have a lot of kids. What are your values? Do you have strong beliefs and convictions? I do and I want to share them with my husband. I would also like to know what vision you have for your future. Once we get past this, we can start the small talk.”

    Hank goes back to watching the football.

    But doesn’t this woman have a point? Wouldn’t it make sense to find out these things before starting a relationship? Isn’t it silly to risk becoming emotionally attached to someone who is on a totally different page to you? If they aren’t ready for marriage and you are, if they don’t want a family and you do, if they don’t have the same value system as yours, then why start going down a path that will only lead to heartache? Every relationship is a risk, but shouldn’t the risk be a bit more calculated and a bit less random?

    The problem is, in today’s world of dating, it is completely uncool to discuss any of these heavy topics in the first 6 months of a relationship. But how stupid is that? You only face the real relationship issues once you are so entangled as to not be able to see clearly anymore.

    The traditional Jewish dating system is different. Before you even meet, you find out the facts about each other. By speaking to a mutual friend or rabbi or some other trustworthy outsider, you can get a basic picture of a person without even laying eyes on them. Before ever seeing their face you can know what their values are, where they are going in life and whether they are on the same general page as you.

    You only date someone who has the same values as you. You would only agree to meet someone who shares your beliefs, holds dear the same values, and has a similar list of priorities in life.

    Once you have all that information, the actual date is just to see if you click, if you can communicate, understand each other, like each other and are attracted to each other. Most of the big questions have already been answered, you already know that the fundamentals are there, on paper it’s all good, now you need to see if there is a real connection. With the deeper issues out of the way, this doesn’t take long.

    And in this system, you only date for marriage. You will either become engaged, or go back to being complete strangers. No messy grey areas, no lingering attachments, no relationships without commitment, no drawn-out entanglements that are going nowhere, no random romances that were doomed from the start.

    The Shidduch system is not perfect. But it’s far better than any other dating system I have seen. It definitely beats sitting in a bar watching the football.

  15. I liked with your take on traditional Jewish dating, and can see some of its advantages over modern dating. But one thing doesn’t make sense. In traditional circles, you only live together after marriage. This is crazy. The only way to really know someone is to live with them for a few years first. You wouldn’t buy a car without first taking it for a test drive. So how can you get married without trying living together?

    Answer:

    Test driving a car is very similar to driving the same car after you have bought it. But living with someone before you are married is nothing like living with the same person after you are married. The relationship is totally different.

    When people are emotionally involved without any formal commitment, there is an invisible sword dangling over the relationship at all times. When we are just living together, I know that at any moment, you can just walk out on me. Nothing is stopping you from leaving except your feelings towards me, so I’d better be on my best behaviour and do everything I can to please you. I am being held hostage by my own feelings, threatened by an unspoken warning – as long as I make you happy, I’m in. But if I say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing, you’re out of here.

    How can I be completely myself in such an emotionally volatile position? No wonder so many people live together for six years but can’t stay married for more than six months. Ask them, “What did you find out after the wedding that you didn’t know before?” They’ll answer, “The person I married was not the person I lived with before.” And they’re right. The person you lived with did their best to keep you happy. The person you married had the security to finally be themselves, with commitment as a safety net. After walking on emotional eggshells for years they can finally let their true self out. And that self may be far less agreeable than the insecure live-in partner that did all they can to please you.

    Not every couple that lives together before marriage is doomed to failure, but there is no indication that they are better off either. But if you follow the traditional system – first use the mind and do some research, then slowly introduce the heart when you meet – you are more likely to make it. First find out about their values and their character. Do they see marriage as an ideal, do they believe in family, are they committed and focused in their personal life, do they have integrity and trustworthiness, are they good-natured and considerate? If so, then they are probably good marriage material. Meet and see if you click. You don’t need to live with them to find this out.

    You can test drive a car, but you can’t test-marry a person. Use your mind first, then your heart, pray for guidance, and you’ll find the right one.

  16. Poor fella and I bet there’s many more like him. He stayed in BMG for a long time. He couldn’t do it forever. Should he have remained in BMG until he’s 35? Then they’ll call him a batlon. Now that he left, he’s posul in the eyes of those that he hopes to marry. What’s he supposed to do?

    On the other hand, his cynical comment about the girls who “supposedly” cry themselves doesn’t help him make his case. If anything it underscores his lack of sensitivity and overall bad middos. Maybe that’s the real reason nobody wanted to marry him in the first place!

  17. I am NOT following this article at all. Just as you had said, “Why don’t they realize that they haven’t just graduated seminary? As 20 year-olds they had a right to be picky. They were probably too picky and turned down their best chances.There are two stories about girls who didn’t necessarily get what the wanted, THEY MADE IT WORK! That’s all it takes.”
    Aren’t you still single??? Aren’t there great girls that you have turned down??? If it is that simple to not be “picky”, then it should be that “simple” for you to be married already. The same would apply to you and all the rest of the “older” boys out there.

  18. ras18 (#5) You seem to be saying that in a marriage where the husband is learning and the wife is the primary breadwinner, in most situations the wife will have trouble respecting her husband because

  19. ras18 (#5) You seem to be saying that in a situation where the husband is learning and the wife is the primary breadwinner the wife will have trouble respecting her husband bec they need to be “doing things together in a way that each feels they are bringing something to the marriage”.

    A husband’s worth and contribution to a marriage, is not something that is measured by a paycheck. In such a situation the husbands contribution, to the home, the ruchnius atmosphere is immeasurable. I personally know of many many beautiful marriages set up in this way. And while these all may be exceptional people they are in no way exceptions.

  20. alter bachur- what I mean is boys that are willing to listen to ideas(thats not coming from a best friend or well known shadchan)

    I don’t see how that gets defined as closed-mindedness, I would define it as stupidity, but that’s just me. Open-minded is a word that gets thrown around a lot in shidduchim and it means something else to everyone. You have to know the person asking the question, where they’re coming from when they ask if a bachur is “open-minded”. To some people it means “Will he conform to my own (possibly whacked-out) viewpoints”? To others it means “is he capable of hearing an opinion other than his own”? Still others mean “Is he unyeshivish”?
    It’s such a generalized term with so many different possible meanings. I always make sure people define the term to me whenever I hear it mentioned.

  21. Well both sides have their issues but both are at fault. We all come with big shopping lists and after you’re married you realize the more important things that didn’t interest you earlier, i.e. caring, a simple mentch, ehrlichkeit, etc. we don’t have to elaborate and with out missing the most important item THIS IS NOT BEING A FRUMMY but a mere fact as the heilige Chazon Ish has said when it comes to shidduchim we are all in the hands of Hashem. So we know its tough for all of you But Teffila really works. Hatzlocha!

  22. I’m 30 years old. I just got turned down buy a 29 year old because of something that may or may not have happened half a lifetime ago. And NO I’m not picky, I just never get any suggestions.

  23. DeliberatelyEsoteric: Its such an unbeleivably close minded thing to say “HOWEVER!! Open-minded YESHIVA-TYPE boys ARE hard to find”. What are you basing your judgement on? I personally am married to a yeshiva type boy and know many others. It sounds like maybe you never really met this type. but anyway it really bothers me how ppl love to knock yeshivish boys and lakewood as close minded. True, there are some close minded INDIVIDUALS out there, but as a whole its not true. I hope one day you will be able to open your eyes and see how wrong you are.

  24. An “open-minded” older single is someone who realizes that it’s time to drop stereotypes. The things I heard from older single girls include “I’m not chassidish”. You’re not chassidish or litvish or yekkish! You’re close to or over 30! Get over it!

  25. I believe post #12 is one of the most lucid.

    In short Parents that poison their children by allowing them to watch TV and go to movies so they can develop a healthy attitude to what is “important” by goyish standards, They get to see thousands of members of the opposite gender, the “beautiful” people by goyish standards and then they go looking for the unobtainable….

    The problem is statistically speaking there are only so many super models and porn stars available for the general population and an even lesser amount of frum super models and porn stars for the frum crowd. There is no greater testament to the failure of modern orthodoxy (those people who “embrace” the secular world, i.e., Goyish culture) than the fact that their marriage rates mirror that of the American Goy. Do not blame the shadchanim. 99% of Chasidim use shadchanim and they get married. It’s the material the shadchanim have to work with. In many case the girls (yes we use the term girls and boys and it’s not derogatory) are just as bad as the boys. Must be post graduate, must be professional, must make six figures. And if Hashem was gozer something else, you want to over rule him? You’re gonna be single for a while.

  26. Shidduchem always seems to be a hot topic. As an a shadchan, I feel there are alot of older singles, both boys & girls. But, I find that as they get older it’s harder to get them to agree to go out, say yes, & get married. Sure, that’s not always the case, but, trust me, it happens many times.

    Younger people listen to their Rebbeim & parents more. As you get older, people seem to think they know enough themselves. This hinders the dating & contributes to the problem.

    While some can argue with me, I’m talking from experience.

  27. This writer is obviously very hurt by his negative shudduch experiences, so my heart breaks for him because of the way he is hurting. However, we know nothing about him, We don’t know about his personla conduct and shidduch history and how many people he himself might have turned down. Same goes for girls. each case has to be looked at individually to determine, who is a victim of a crisis and who is not. You will be shocked if I tell you that there are many girls with long lists as well. You didn’t know that , did you? well its fact. Of course not all girls but some.

    And to the contrary , there are singe boys out there with no lists at all ( myself included).

  28. you imply that a 20 year old girl has a right to be picky. that implies that a 23 year old guy also has a right to be picky.
    were YOU picky? maybe you passed up on the girl…..maybe you should revisit some of the girls you turned down and try again.
    NO one has a right to be picky no matter how rich, pretty, tall, skinny, etc….

  29. #31 (jewish2): Well, I am an “open-minded” [whatever that means] single yeshiva-type girl looking for the same in a boy – and you know what? I’m finding that the two terms tend to contradict each other! Once a boy leaves a closed-minded, turtle-like sheltered way of thinking (which may have its good points, but that’s not for me), they become “cool” [whatever THAT means!] and are no longer defined as “yeshiva-type”.

    So I’m basing my judgment on my own personal experiences in the “shidduch world”.

    I do NOT knock Lakewood/yeshiva boys. In fact, I would like to marry one! 🙂

  30. We all come here and write because of our anonymity. True everyone has an issue which we think isn’t so terrible, the problem is some of us choose to think of “yennems” issue and forget about their own.

  31. “matzahlocaol101′

    in regards to all the non sense parents do:

    How about saying NO (of course explain it in many different shape or forms Gluck)
    to you’re children when they ask you for the new American girl doll, MP3 or Pods bla bla bla etc.

    my nieces and nephews grew with a TV the second they walked into the house after school instead of doing activities and being creative with the family the TV came 1st “oy”

    B’H the TV is gone the kids are doing much better the family is functioning like a family should.

  32. #5 what is the issue the gedolim should tackle? That professional girls don’t have respect for young men who are shtark in their learning and want to continue learning full time? (What if they want, eventually, to be full time mothers?) Or perhaps that even with income (and maybe a parnassa that the young woman could still do well in part time after the children come be”H) boys demand xxxxx dollars/years support? The parents’ insanity? I could go on, but it would be interesting if you could revisit your post and clarify.

  33. Is anyone open to having a live discussion on this issue over brunch 🙂 could be fun hearing all the meshigassen……count me out lol

  34. This conversation is so ridiculouos. Each individual circumstance is different and there is no way to pinpoint a reason and say “THIS IS IT”. The same girl (or boy) could be redd (and go out) with different people and have different reasons for not continuing each time. One time she said no b/c he was chassidish/too yeshivish/not yeshivish enough , the next he said no to her b/c she was too old/tall/chatty/quiet/heavy, the next time she was picky b/c he was too short/uneducated/poor conversationalist/bald/flashy/simple, the next her parents didn’t want for another million reasons, and so on and so on and so on. There is no ONE reason why this has perpetuated into a “singles crisis” beyond the fact that boys AND girls BOTH need to have the right attitude about dating. If both the boy AND girl (and the parents/rebbeim/shaddchanim too) has the proper attitude/hashkafah when being redd and/or dating, they may actually get somewhere. (Only one having the right attitude won’t work).

  35. obviously alot of people here are showing that there are definitely two sides to this “coin.” While I believe that most average yeshiva bochurim, and most average bais yaakov girls would be able to create a great relationship if they have the right hashkafas, middos and not much else (how did our bubbys and zaiydes get married? Did they think about whether or not someone would call before the first date?), people get influenced by societal pressures as to what is considered a “successful” shidduch. Parents though always looking for their child’s best interest all too often get swept up in the world view as to who their machetunim are. I am someone who was married for 5 WEEKS! No therapists were involved, but a lot of rabbonom were, and of the gedolim told me not to wait for my spouse to come around, and to get divorced right away. I should have never gotten married in the first place, but in retrospect (I B”H have since gotten remarried), I see how my parents pushing a “good family,” my spouses complete lack of interest of working out anything, and my own lack of dating with the proper outlook contributed to it happening. Boys and girls have rules piled on them as to where they can go on dates, which date can a guy ask a girl out, when to speak on the phone, what to wear, etc… If people would go out with less pressure as to how the other person matches up to what is expected of a good date, then maybe we would see more success in shidduchim.
    As far as “pickiness” goes, my situation led me to dates of all types and all ages, and I believe that many older girls have fell into the trap being more cynical about guys who are still in Yeshiva. Just because you’re a profesional making alot of money doesn’t mean the boy you’re dating isn’t a talented and loving person.
    Also, BOYS ARE MORE PICKY WITH WHO THEY GO OUT WITH. GIRLS ARE MORE PICKY ABOUT CONTINUING WITH A BOY. Boys are a harder first date, girls are a harder second date.

  36. Thanks for bringing this topic up. We always hear about the girls problem (which taka is quite a problem… May Hashem help and may boys mothers and sons turn down less girls) yet there are boys that dont have lists and are older. However I think that it is less of a problem… tho it still exists.

    Dealing with shidduchim I find that many of the older guys I know have such attitude problems that I cant bring myself to red any girl to them. I wouldnt want to be responsible for the girl being hurt by the rude obnoxious behavior of these guys. (I happen to have a few young friends divorce from verbally abusive situations… so sometimes Baruch Hashem the get is given!!)

    Also when we red a girl to an older guy that isn’t a girl but a “woman” as torahis says the guys turn it down cuz they want a young fresh girl. Not always but it definitely happens. I understand but If a guy is 45 already then dont tell me a 40 yr old is too ol for you… I hear, you want kids, what can I say. Hashem runs the world. But you may have passed her up long ago when she could have had kids and now… I dont know what to say.
    I daven that everyone finds the person that they need to help them build a bayis neeman very soon and PLEASE guys that are obnoxious- stop dating for a few months… go learn how to be a mentsh and how to talk to ppl and then come back and we’ll convince the girl to go out with u. Until then- no complaints allowed!

  37. Well, though I understand your thoughts, 49, there is another issue here to be thought of.

    Sometimes there is a man who has not been mekayaim mitzvas Pirya V’Rivya, and he is ossur to marry someone who he believes will not be able to help him achieve this goal.

    Since it is very untzniusdik to ask about the woman’s cycles, and at what age here mother and/or older sisters, etc, went through menapause, the man who is childless is forced to SOMETIMES think about the need to seek a younger woman.

    I know of a 55-year-old man who married a 45-year-old woman. He had never had children. He was married once before, but his ex-wife was unable to conceive, and then got sick, and eventually passed away.

    He needed to have a minimum of two children, one boy and one girl. So, halachakly he could only marry a woman who was likely to be able to have two pregnancies.

    Well, he did not want a woman “too young” and chose the 45-year-old, wonderful woman.
    Well, guess what? Two months after the wedding, she suddenly went through her “changes” and was no longer able to conceive. They were both heartbroken, but were already so attached to each other… what should they do?

    They stayed together, settling for a life with no children, and being mivatel the mitzvah.

    However, when a friend of his was looking for a shidduch, he told him to stay around 40 or younger.

    Now, of course, we all know of people who had children in their late 40’s or even in their 50’s today. But, I can understand a single man seeking a woman significantly younger than he is. Not that it is a good age match, but his feelings about being mekayim the mitzvah may be strong in him.

    I know, they all should have though about this and not waited so long… but from the discussions above, we know the many things that could cause this.

    Now, if a man is over 60, some rabbonim will give a heter to marry someone probably too old to have kids, because they will say that the likelihood of the man’s finding a young enough woman who would marry him is very slim, and it is still better to be married than single, so they give a heter.

    Meanwhile, you are right. 40 should NOT have been too old. I was talking about the problem moved ahead a few years.

    Unless the man is saying, “I know I am so immature, I can not relate to a woman near my own age, I need a younger woman who would be immature like me.”

    Of course, that is a bit silly, but there is another case, unfortunately more common:
    Many times there are men who for whatever reason are very insecure, and feel threatened by a woman whose age is close enough to be a ‘peer’.
    Or are so socially backwards that they can’t attract a woman their own age, and think a younger woman will not notice how messed up they are.

    Of course, the younger woman can see right through these fools, and keep turning him down.

    As I said earlier, many of the older single crowd really can benefit from real counseling.

    I am 60 years old,and married a woman who is 50, only 2 1/2 years ago. Not a first marriage for either. But, I made counseling/therapy a condition of the deal. We both had too much baggage to delude ourselves into thinking we could have a happy wonderful marriage without needing counseling.

    No, we are not sickos. We are both, normal, intelligent, menshlech, achievers, would would be considered very mentally stable in every way. But, it helps to bounce things off a trained person. I can tell you it does help me. It helps me be a better husband.

    At my first session, I told the counselor, “Listen, I am a divorced man. And only a fool goes around blaming the divorce on the other party. I am sure it was both of our faults. I am coming to you for guidance to make sure I do not repeat.

    By the way, that shrink friend of mine (no I do not go to him) tells me that the divorce rate in the church he told me about, with the really great counseling program, is almost nil.

  38. OK MY TURN!!!
    #49, you make it sound like the boys are always the ones that are abusive. I have somebody close to me who is divorced because the wife was verbaly abusive. I’ve been around many of my friends and their spouses, and you see some of the girls abusing (verbally, it would be chiba b’rabim to hit your husband in public) their husbands. So don’t make it sound like us GUYS have to learn mentshlechkeit. There are guys that abuse and girls that abuse.

  39. ALTER BOCHUR- i HEAR WHAT YOU ARE SAYING BUT MANY TIMES YOU CAN FIND COMMON GROUND WITH A “STRANGER” AND CAN “CHAPP” WHAT TYPE HE IS.AGAIN,PLEASE CONTACT ME DIRECTLY

  40. OK MY TURN!!!
    First of all, #49, you make it sound like it’s always the guys that are abusive. I have a relative who is divorced from a girl who was verbaly abusing him. I’ve been around many friends and their respective spouses and noticed more than a few girls abusing(verbaly, physically would be chiba b’rabim) their husbands. There are boys and girls that have to learn how to treat others, including their spouses. Lets not say that the “boys have to learn how to be a mentsh”
    Take your head out of the sand. Women also abuse their husbands! WOW!!! It goes on!!!

  41. Someone once suggested (was it here??) speed dating in a frum environment. Maybe it’s a thought….put all these older males & females in 1 room & let them briefly meet each other.

    Could work for MO, Litvish, Chassidish, everyone.

    Nothing else seems to be working, & there is a real shidduch crisis. Perhaps it’s worth a try.

    Before you all start yelling, it’s just an idea.

  42. I think the problem today is that the Shiduch system although much better than the non Jewish system has its flaws. About two year ago I compiled a list of people that no one in the frum world date.
    Avrohom – Ba’al teshuvah. Father Oived Avodah Zorah
    Yitzchok – His mothers father was trouble as well as his fathers father. His half brother was an arab
    Yaakov – His brother was Eisav – Also lots of time with his uncle that was a rashah.
    Moshe – His parents separated, then got back together – They also abandoned him. Probably too much emotional trauma
    Dovid – descendant from a giyoret – Sure it was a few generations but we need some one “frumer”.

    I had a friend of mine who’s mother begged him to go to Lakeowood so he would get a good shiduch. His response “If not being in Lakewood breaks the shiduch then I don’t want her”.

    With me personally people turned me down because I was working. The question was “he is working, whats wrong with him ?” Does something have to be wrong with some one because he is not “officially learning” ? I know I will get cursed at for saying this but Yaakov Avinu worked. He was a shepherd for 14+ years. I have lot more to rant about but here is not the place.

    I seriously wonder if Yaakov Avinu was around today if he would have been accepted by todays “frum community” and given the chance with a shadchan.

  43. Fahrfrumt… I didnt intend to make you so angry.. however- u sound to me like someone who may get angry quickly…
    True it is what you say that the women are to blame at times however we all know that the tendencies of a man are to get angry alot faster than women. An angry man is a scary sight. An angry women is also a scary sight though they tend to hold it down (usually) until breaking point. Ko somar l’vais yaakov ve SAGID l’ benei yisrael- the guys are tougher the women are weaker. Tough guys- cool guys- c’mon you know as well as I do that guys rough it off to eachother in away that girls would cry their eyes out if they were being spoken to like that.
    I agree that both are guilty- but of the older girls I am aware of vs the older guys- I see more rudeness and selfcenterdness around the guys as well as lack of understanding how to talk to a human being with feelings. They way they talk to their mother sister and others is simply outrageous and not deserving of a fine girls. YOu cant bring kids into the world into a destructive setting so youcan destroy your kids lives to the way you talk to them.
    Yeah, some guys are not ois mentch, and yeah more girls on the market are more metchlech than the guys… sorry kacha hamatzav! but you are right… the girls the wmen, they arent always innocent and do have to watch many times the way they are that arent selfcentered nasty ppl.

  44. What #10 said was 100% correct. Are there any girls out there in the late twenties who would ‘settle’ for a good looking ehrlich male, college professor, 32, who does not wear a black hat, but is a Yiras ShoMaim, who finds time to learn and attend shiurim?

  45. many older bochurim that I know started out with a list of characteristics that the girl had to have before they went out,young, lots of money,great looks, great job preferabbly a therapist,none of the brothers or brother in laws should be working or even thinking of working in a real job,the father has to be a ben torah who will support forever. as the years went by and they got balder and fatter they still wanted to marry the 18 year olds, with loads of money or potential to earn it.who is teaching the bochurim about these characteristics
    that the ikkur in a shidduch is money and looks. before we start with marriage counseling we have to train our bochurim what is truly important to look for in a shidduch. It wouldn’t hurt if the rosh yeshivas would speak to them to stop bashmootzing a girl that wasn’t up to their expectations on a date.They might not be interested but maybe someone else would be

  46. Good for this guy that he went to work. How many guys, who aren’t going to learn their whole lives, wake up at age 27, 28 with 3 kids and have to find a job. Who in the world is going to pay them the amount they need to support a frum family in todays world. Tuition, insurance, and rent for a family of that size costs at least $35,000. I haven’t even touched the other expences (at least one car, car insurance, gas, utilities, food, diapers, cell phone bills, and the list goes on). A guy with no experience or higher education will not be paid more than that to start out. If you don’t have a wealthy father or father-in-law, you don’t stand a chance. And that’s if you find a job. I know many guys looking hard and can’t get a break. I was lucky that I knew somebody who found me a job. Yad Hashem. I still can’t make it on my own and yes, I rely on others and credit cards.
    That’s something that our yeshiva system doesn’t set us up for. Life after yeshiva. The average goy in the work force (I’m talking about the jobs that us intelegent guys are looking for) has been through college and started working by 22. Of course he’s going to get the job and get paid more than the 27 year old yeshiva guy with no schooling.
    I’m not advocating college but does anybody agree with me that our wonderful yeshiva system is flawed in this sense? I have a friend who is still single in Lakewood that just told me he would go to work but it would ruin him in the shidduch scene. He will stay in yeshiva now, get married and learn at least another 2 years afterwards, just because that’s what he must do. And he’s a good guy, learns well. But feels that at this age it’s time to move on. Is it wrong of him to do that. Wouldn’t it be the responsible thing for him to go to work so that he can support his family in the future without having to come onto others for money? The Rambam (I believe in Mada, I can quote perek and halacha later if anyone requests) clearly says that the way to live life is to learn torah and work for a living. He says pretty strongly that it’s the wrong thing to learn only torah and have to come onto others for money.
    Now I don’t know what the other Rishonim say on this issue, and I am not Chas V’shalom making the case to close down the Kollel system, (there must be Mekoros for it as the Roshei Yeshivos and Gedolei Yisroel know and understand a whole lot more than me) but I don’t see a reason and haven’t seen any Mekor for one to be embarrased to go to work at any age. The Tanaim, Amoraim, Rishonim and most Achronim until this generation, worked for a living. There was no Kollel system and no father-in-law was supporting them. This shockingly was also the case as near back as the last generation in Europe. The Hamon Am worked. If you weren’t the Rav, Rebbe or Dayin you worked. You came home from work, learnt and served Hashem to the fullest. The same can and is done today by many, and I venture to say most, Ballei Batim. There wasn’t and there shouldn’t be anything to be embarassed of. I Boruch Hashem joined the work force not too long ago, after learning for 2 1/2 years after marriage. I learn early in the morning, daven and go to work. It’s a very fullfiling, happy lifestyle. It feels great to put bread on the table that I’m paying for with my own money. But I digress.
    It’s wrong that this friend of mine would be embarrased. I have another single friend who sat me down last week to discuss weather he should go to work. Not only did I tell him to go to work but I got him a job. He is making the responsible decision and shouldn’t have to suffer on the shidduch market because of it.
    Girls take note. There are good working boys out there. Don’t buy into the Hashkafah that you are taught in seminary that you can only have a frum household if your husband works. Its wrong. You can be a strong frum girl and have a husband that works. You shouldn’t either be embarassed of that (you’ll have a nicer lifestyle aso if you so wish).
    I don’t know were I’m holding so I’ll sign off now. I hope I made sense. I know I’m mostly, if not all, right in what I’ve said.

  47. What would everyone think about Yeshiva world providing a shadchan service as part of their website? I think there needs to be a bit more of a venue for people to meet their basherte. Many people do not know where to go or who to call to find dates. I think YW should implement some kind of anonymous shadchan venue, what does everyone think of that idea?

  48. Frankly speaking. The American dating / shidduch system is warped. In many cases very little information is found out or checked upon and only after x amount of dates are they investigated. At that stage, when crucial bad info is released into his / her circles then it is off. Dating a few people in the same period of time is common which leads to comparing between them. Things are generally too casual. And before the chasidim start crowing about how great there shadchan run two date system is, let me remind you that whilst this may work in certain Jerusalem enclaves and similar areas but in New York where people are exposed to much greater things then for better or worse they know more about this world and how they expect marriage to work. A pshoro to an extent involving more attentive parents and shadchonim are needed. In Europe the system is run thus: the prospective mechutonim find out about the child their own child has been suggested for. In Great Detail. For whatever they consider necessary. If all goes well and the parents agree their children should meet then the first few (everyone is different) dates are kept casual, the next few touch hashkafa and go deeper whilst the last few go into details of future. This way, in Frum circles, the boy/girl knows that they need only concentrate on important matters relating to their prospective spouse, rather than the others side family, personality etc. This would have all been checked upon beforehand and if cleared should be compatible. This way a shidduch can be finished easily within three weeks easily and often alot quicker. For marriage or not. I am not being naive, not everyone is compatible and works but this system is known to have a very high success rate.

    Just a note to the older people who unfortunately have not found their mate. Although in a dream world, and I’m taking the boys side, the girl should be pretty, sophisticated, wealthy, have suitable family, degree, know how to cook, clever etc. since girls with all these meilos would normally be taken by their late twenties, at the latest and again pshoros have to be made in what is important in life and what are the frills.

    May all, older and younger people in shidduchim find their zivug bekoroiv.

  49. Re DM’s comments: fertility is in the hands of Hashem. How many of us know of people who were told that R”L they would never have children, only to be blessed with many? I know a frum woman who was told by a doctor that she was menopausal and would not be able to have more children (she had one daughter at the time). She happened to be a doctor at the same hospital, and several months later she was visibly pregnant, and found herself in an elevator with the same doctor. She was too polite to say anything, and a few months later her son was born. Also, unfortunately there are healthy young ladies who can’t conceive, AND there are men who are unable to father children. So to make a shidduch conditional on having at least two pregnancies seems faulty to me, not to mention, “a son and a daughter”?! That may be the halachik fulfullment of pru urvu, but don’t we all know families with six sons and no daughters and vice versa? We should recognize that all things are in the hands of Hashem, and if he provides the shidduch, he knows what our kiyum hamitzvah of pru urvu should be.

  50. Shkoyach we agree in principal. All I am saying is don’t blame it on the guys. It can be both. Its true, a guy is rougher but you know what, the sutleness of a woman when she gets mad, can kill. That is also abusive. Everybody needs to learn to treat a spouse with respect. Both sides never lived with another person (although the guys lived in diras in Israel [that was a joke]). That is a huge transition, and unfortionatly there are those that have a hard time. Kacha Hamatzev.

  51. Very interesting discussion. I appreciate the tone of all the posters here, as I’ve seen other forums where the discussion is more heated and less on topic and “mentchlach”. Tavo aleichem haBiracha.

    I especially liked the comparison/contrast to the girl meets guy in the bar and goes back to watching football after being asked tachlis questions.

    re: folish questions – I truly wonder where all these stupid questions like tablecloths and other stupidities, not to mention dress size and the like, come from.

    Also, who cares? Let’s say they use plastic and they stack their dishes. And say you don’t want your son’s wife to do that since you do it better. If it really matters so much to you, why not explain to your son why you feel that’s the most fitting way to honor Shabbos (if you say so…), and ask him to (check with his Rebbi or Rav and) see if his wife is amenable to doing so as well, for that reason. If they have their own reasons for not doing so, why not let them do it their way, well within the bounds of halacha? So why ask all these silly questions to begin with?

    As another poster wrote, after you get married, you find out that the most important qualities in a spouse are not these silly questions but, rather, their middos/hashkafa and abilities; Mikasa or plastic is kind of secondary.

    As for the animal question, I see where, in theory, the question comes from (as a way of viewing a strong middah of a person – “Dan Gur Aryeh” – gibor kaAri, ratz kaTzvi, learn tznius from a cat, et al), but I do think it’s insensitive to ask, as most people are probably very unqualified to know how to ask or answer that question in a meaningful and real way, so I think it’s foolish, in the final analysis.

    As far as “picky”, I know of a few “older” girls (upper 20s) who, to me, seemed perfectly suitable matches for a normal person – intelligent, masters degrees, working, pleasant attitude, physically fit, no “lists” that I am aware of other than a normal person on the other end, working or learning – yet, off the top of my head, I know of one that is still looking. I think, liek everything except yiras Shamayim, HaKol biydei shamayim, that even with all of the above and the proper kavanos and none of the stupidity, it’s still up to Hashem to decide when He sees fit to send a person their zivug, so I think this assumption of “pickiness” is incorrect, and is hurtful to those who simply haven’t met the right one yet.

    re: Piru Urvu – if a person is blessed with, say six boys but is not blessed with any girls, isn’t he still mikayeim Pru Urvu as soon as any of his sons has a girl?

  52. why don’t someone hire 10 shadhanim to get these people married and a few psycologoist also.
    for 300 thousand a year , we can make a dent in the problem.

  53. Guys, let’s face it: for every normal solid older boy there are a few hundred wonderful solid girls.
    This may be the point of the writer of this article: of course every girl (oops I mean young woman) wants the perfect yeshivishe handsom boy. However, sometimes waiting 10 years for him will be at the cost of never finding him and missing out on many 2nd best top boys.
    It is easy to talk (I am BH married for many years) but some barriers may have to be broken to get to the next step: boy who is younger/shorter/broken home.
    One point though that I would like to make to all the married couples reading this: the achrayus lies with us!!! We need to constantly be trying to help these wonderful young men and women to find their besherte.
    Also, we need to treat them as friends and not as some problem of society. Rabbi Krohn always bemoans this fact. These people are not the nebachs of society. They are often very accomplished in what they do. They just have not had the mazal to find the right mate.
    Let’s be sensitive and pro-active in inviting them earlier on in the week or way before yom tov so that they do not feel more rejected than they may feel.

  54. Shkoyach,

    I see you’ve stereotyped genders, however I am interested to know if there is any specific data (or preferably, a direct Chaz”l) backing up your claim that men are more prone to anger than women. [The Matan Torah Posuk refers to how they should be taught. I don’t see how that reflects their personality as far as anger is concerned when things go “wrong”] My limited life experiences seem to tell me otherwise.

    I have unfortunately seen a couple of cases where the woman/wife was/is extremely abusive, verbally and PHYSICALLY (of course the verbal preceded the physical..). While we Baruch Hashem have a huge amount of very refined Benoth Yisrael (probably the vast majority!), the self centered and those who approach marriage with a “me me” attitude does exist as well.

  55. I am an over 40, Single guy. I learn & work.

    I am looking for women in mid to late 30’s. From what I hear there are so many women in that range. But when I meet them, many are caught up in issues related to things like height (I am average, not tall) or being “more yeshivish”…..etc. So they don’t want to continue.

    no jokes.

    I know I am older but I am told by shadchanim that I am pretty reasonable & flexible. But….the search goes on.

    In E”Y where I am…..no one seems to have any suggestions.

    anyway……if anyone has any ideas, I will be grateful.

    thanks

  56. #60 (fahfrumt): I love your comment (#60). I have been feeling this way for a long time! I feel that the entire infrastructure of the kollel system is crumbling. Couples rely on their parents for $$ for basic needs – so who will support THEIR children?? They are not putting anything away to secure their children’s future…

    And even if/when they decide (to the horror & shock of family and friends) that they need to “go out” to work to support themselves, they are a bunch of naive guys and unwise to the ways of the world. They have no secular education beyond 8th-grade science and some long division, resulting in lower salaries that still have to be supplemented by the contents of Daddy’s ever-shrinking wallet.

    But this is a topic that should probably be addressed and discussed separately…

  57. Rivky @ #61 Wonderful Idea, what does Mr.Editor have to say about that? I personally know a few young shadchanim who would be willing to take part in it.
    #7
    #30
    #35
    #58
    #72
    Please contact me and I can bring you up at our next shidduch meeting and we would hopefully have someone for you. Email: [email protected]

  58. wow, I can’t believe my eyes!!!

    Shiduchim are happening here after all the famous phrase “you never know” never like that comment never the less

    online dating can be amaizing after all:-)

    my sister just got engaged the other night its my turn now.

  59. Women are much more independent nowadays and don’t have to rely on a man to ‘ptotect’ them. Many don’t care to become housewives and mothers. They want carreers. They get a much finer secular education than the boys. the young men in many cases use the kollel as a protective insulation against responsibility and are very naive about the’outside’world.They feel inadequate when they meet the young ladies. The system is outdated and unrealistic. Get an education,get a skill,learn about the world around you,and GET A JOB!!

  60. HAKOL (even shidduchim) b’yidei shamayim, chutz m’yiras shamayim. Every person needs to view shidduchim and any other challange in life as a excercise in yiras shamayim. After all is said and done, whatever happens to a person whether getting married at 18 or 40 is in the hands of Hashem.

    Yes people are sometimes stupid and conceited and turn down people for shallow reasons, but some people are destinted to the yissurim of singlehood, the same way people are destined to have yissurim of being poor, chronically ill, having difficult family members, etc…

    People have to stop having gaivah that they are in charge of their destiny and who they will marry and put ALL their faith only in Hashem!

    It says in Shaar Bitachon that as soon as someone puts their faith in something else, Hashem removes His supervision and leaves you in the hands of what you trust. So do not trust your abilities and qualities to get the “best” person, and no not trust the shadchan, or your parents, or friends, or anything else besides Hashem.

    It says that all Hashem is busy with since he finished creation is shidduchim. Everyone should be halachto b’deraochav and be involved in shidduchimin some way or another.

    keep in mind, there is no one in the world who is exactly like you and to marry your clone would be awefully boring.

  61. to the ppl that claim that the chassidishe shidduch system must be the best cuz the divorce rate is lower than in other places. well you might have a point, but it’s due to a different reason. not cuz they have better marriages, but because it’s a bigger “beesha”. if u look into it, you’ll see that it’s a vicious cycle. it’s a great shame to divorce – because it’s not so common = less couples divorce = the divorce rate doesn’t rise much = the humiliation is even bigger = no one divorces = a “shanda” to divorce… etc.
    do you get my point?? i am chassidish, & I can list many many ppl who are absolutely miserable in their marriages but wouldn’t even think of leaving their abusive spouses due to the stigma.
    again, i know what i’m talking about – my theory is unfortunately backed up by others’ and my life experiences.

  62. I’d like to add that 1 or 2 meetings between the boy & girl (by many chassidishe) is not enough. although you can’t really know a person till you live with him/her, another few “b’shos” (dates) would NOT hurt. there are certain things that you COULD perceive more clearly after seeing / talking to a person for a longer amount of time.
    Don’t worry. “They won’t become “modern” from meeting 3-6 times.