Out Of The Mailbag – To YW Editor (Stigmas in Shiduchim)

144

yw logo4.jpgDear YWN Editor,

I have read with great interest the emotional letters and pleas of your readers on various subjects relating to shiduchim.  Interestingly, Hamodia Magazine has recently been focusing on the subject of “Stigmas in Shiduchim” and has been providing its readers with a series of emotional stories intended to break down some of the common stigmas in this parsha.

For this reason I was quite taken a back by a line in a recent story they published and would like to hear the feedback of YWN’s educated and literate audience.  The story is in the March 5 edition and begins on page 15.  The story is about a young woman who unfortunately has a genetic medical syndrome.  In the course of the story, Hamodia states, and  I quote “When I turned 19, people began warning me that my prospects for marriage were not good. ‘You may have to take a working boy’ they cautioned me.”

I am very confused as to how an article written by sensitive thoughtful people with the intent of tearing down stigmas and generalizations when it comes to shiduchim could make such a seemingly denigrating statement regarding a large segment of our community.

I would therefore appreciate your reader’s input as to how to understand this.  My thoughts so far are:

1. Yes it really is a sin to be working.  That does not sound right though.

2. Maybe there is a mussar haskel here in the fact that a stigma breaking expert has her own stigmas. Perhaps this just goes to show us how much more work needs to go into breaking down these stigmas.

Thank You,

Confused in Teaneck.

144 COMMENTS

  1. The term “working boy” as far as I understand, should be defined as a boy who works as a teenager. Instead of learning in a yeshiva, he works. Although there is nothing “wrong” with working, in today’s generation were it is so easy to get a yeshiva education, a boy who works is viewed as someone who is too lazy to learn. So yes. Getting a working boy is not a good thing.

  2. If you have a problem with Hamodia why not write to them directly? Usually that is more bekovodik then bloggin elsewhere and might even result in a retraction.

    I actually did not understand this article as the girl in question had a genetic problem that caused problems in many of her children including one who died young as a result. There is very good reason for someone to avoid shidduchim with known genetic problems as seen by the Gedolims support of Dor Yesharim. Similarily their article on foster children implied that that was the stigma. usually the problem people are worried about is the original problem that caused the child to be placed in foster care (i.e mentally ill parent or abuse or the like). The foster care, if anything, mitigates the problem and is not a cause for any stigma in my circles.

  3. The people who say such comments have something very wrong with them. There’s a reason why there’s so much sinaas chinam in the world.
    .1 People can not accept someone that doesn’t do exactly what they do. Well welcome to the world people – noone is the same. Hashem purposely made the world like that so we can all feed off each other maalos and chesronos! If we distance ourselves and look down on people who are not exactly the same as us we will never be able to make use of their many maaolos!
    .2 Anyone who thinks that there’s something wrong with someone who is working is being ridiculous. Learning in Kollel is a privelage and it’s something we all deep down would love to do; but not everyone can. Wether financially they can’t make ends meet, or just because they don’t have the zitsfleish for it, or for the million other reasons it doesn’t work out – they are working. They’re not BAD people – they put in many hours of torah learning each day which requires TREMENDOUS mesirus nefesh after a long day in the office. But they do it, because the torah is the #1 thought on their mind at all times. They may even have more Chashivus Hatorah then someone in full time kollel.
    This is not to put down kollel yungerleight – everyone has tremendous respect for what they do and the lives they lead; but there is NO reason to put down someone who is doing what they have to do.

  4. What does one have to do with the next .If you want a learning boy and feel for it you views may not match-and no it is not a chisoren if a boy is working its just a diffrent type.

  5. confused in teaneck

    firstly there is nothing wrong for a boy to be working.

    Sadly to say though, its a given if a girl doesn’t marry a learning boy, she’s considered a ‘bum’. As soon as a girl gets engaged you know what her ‘dear’ friends ask her?

    “so where and how long is he going to learn for?”

    It is absolutely no ones business! What if he’s NOT going to be learning the whole day, why does that make him any less special? learning half a day and working the other half is nothing wrong!
    If he has yiras shmayim that is maybe even more important than ‘is he going to learn full time?’

    It is nothing to look down at. in the ‘alte heim’ who were the shoe makers, grocers, winers… these were special men who brought in parnassah and than went to learn. If im not mistaken but the Chofetz Chaim had a store-he kept it open till he had enough for the day, closed the store and went to learn.

    there’s a saying in yiddish “mentshen ken buildn un mentshen ken desroyn.”(people have the power to build and people have the power to destroy)

  6. #2 You are the reason for the Stigma in this world! Aside, a young boy who is working seriously is definitly not lazy – he is probably working way harder than all his friends in yeshiva. Stop thinking such ridiculous thoughts and focus on how you can improve your ahavas chaveirim!

  7. Confused in Teanek!!
    Im really confused about you! I closely followed the articals in the Hamodia since i am obviously up to that stage. I agree that there are many stigmas in shidduchim that are compelely unfounded and untrue. However, i totally and completely disagree with you comment that a working boy is not a stigma! Of course it is! Working boys are second class citizens. A boy’s tachlis on this earth is to learn and delve into Hashem’s heilige torah! He should be constantly swaeting adn toiling in Torah. My heart cries for all these bums who have seeped to such low levels that they have actually left the the torah learning and have entereed the goyesha work field. Don’t they realize how wrong that is!! I daven for them every day that they should realize how wrong they are and how messed up they are! There is absolutely no reason at all why they are sitting behind a desk all busy with work instead of sitting in a bais hemedrish learning and shteiging in Torah.
    I went to one of the top institutions in Eretz Yisroel and learned so much and one thing that our teachers repeated over and over again and engrained in our blood that we must marry a learning boy! They have much better yiras shamayim and more derech eretz than those working boys. Learning boys are much better off and are great boys. I would never be able to marry a working boy becuase i feel that i would never be able to respect him at all since he stooped to the the level of working! I think that NO ONE should begin working until there is absolutely no money left in the mother’s pocketbook and there is only moldy bread left on the shelves. Until that happens, then the husband should be sitting in the bais hamedrish.
    I know that many poeple will not be happy with this letter adn think that its extreme, however thes are the values that i was engraiend in seminar, and i feel that i don’t have to compromise. The person as mentioned above in the letter will have a harder time with shidduchim so unfortunately may nebach have to marry someone who is working. My heart goes out to her, but that may be the hishtadlus that she has to do. but for the rest of us NORMAL girls, i see no reason why i should marry a working boy? im curious what other opinions are on this topic!

  8. It is absurd to attach any type of stigma to “working boys.” Those people, along with the working Baal Ha’Batim are the ones financially supporting the Yeshivas thhose learning boys attend. They are also, primarily the ones who provide money to kolellim to allow them to function and provide a monetary stipend to the Avrechim.The Rambam himself advocates employment and if he didn’t find it to be a stigma,why should we? It is so sad that people have become so petty!!

  9. i dont get it. whats the issue?
    assuming this is about a girl who really wants to marry a serious learning boy; she is told she may have to reconsider marrying a working one.

    this in no way is putting down working boys

  10. ——————————————————————————–

    But many of you conveniently fail to examine the larger issue in the previous posting entitled: ” Fertility Crisis – life after shidduchim” – 81 comments. She writes: ” the pressures of today’s society are enough to drive a couple apart “.Learning boy or no learning boy. Maalos or chesronos. Face the issues please. If a frum woman is saying that the “frum society” is pressuring her, we must look inward and ask ourselves and our “untouchable” rabbbanim whether our priorities are correct. Do her words suggest that she feels respected or loved by other frum women,or even by our “frum” community ? Pardon me, but you all sound so self-righteous when you say how you’ll daven for her welfare rather than introspect and deal with the obvious lack of ahavas yisrael. Perhaps, she was telling us that the mitvah of p’ru urevu is not greater than ahavas Yisrael ? Sadly, I have found more sinas chinam in yeshivish communities than in non-yeshivish communities.I thank G-d I don’t live in Lakewood !

  11. Mommy23
    illini07
    READ BEFORE YOU TALK!
    I was not talking about working after you get married! I believe (rightly, I think) that the kollel lifestyle should be reserved to those who are worthy and can. It is very easy to go to college while learning in the local yeshivas during the day. The reason for not learning while being a TEENAGER is in most cases because the boy is too lazy to use his intellectual abilities.

  12. #10 IS absolutly right, why should a working boy marry a girl w a genetic prob?
    4 me it only shows achrayes that he works, some boys r just not cut 4 that, instead of warming up the chairs in yeshive, they r doing s/thing normal. Of course if they r bummy so its a dif. story, but some boys learn more w/ their shiurim in the morning n evening then boys in kollel or yeshivah…

  13. To #9 InShidduchim: Are you for real? Obviously it’s better to learn than work. However, not everyone can learn if they don’t have the money to and some boys don’t have the mental ability to sit all day and be osek b’torah inside a sefer. B”H I was granted the ability to learn for a while, but I know plenty of guys who work and are tremendous talmidei chachamim and yirei shamayim. You say, “Working boys are second class citizens.” That’s a horrible thing to say, factually untrue, and just stam lashon harah about a large group of people. You also say, “They have much better yiras shamayim and more derech eretz than those working boys.” That’s ridiculous. How do you know this? You can quantify that? How do you know what goes on b’chadrei chadarim? Only the Aibishter knows. I find it hard to believe you attended one of the “top institutions in eretz yisroel.” You’re also definitely not a “normal” girl. Normal girls understand the different tafkids individuals have in this world. It’s very easy for a girl to say “I want a learning boy.” You just have to say it, not actually do it. Learning is very difficult to do on a full time basis for the rest of one’s life with no parnassah. Worry about yourself and what you need to do before you criticize a large part of klal yisroel. I guarantee if no one worked there’d be no one to support your future husband learning.

  14. #9 Are you for real? You would take every cent from your mother so that your husband can sit and learn? I am a “second class citizen” because I work to support my family? I guess the fact that R’ Tarfon was a beer merchant is lost on you? If it is a boy’s tafkid to sit and learn then why does the Gemora in Kiddushin say that it is the obligation of the father to teach his son a trade?

  15. #9 In Shidduchim: 10 years after you’re married please write back into Yeshiva World as to where your life took you. We would all LOVE to hear if it really ended up exactly as you picture now, and you’re eating moldy bread and serving it to your 10 starving children we’d love to hear about it.
    What can I say to you? You do have nice aspirations, we hope your dreams come true. I hate to burst your bubble but are they realistic?! Welcome to life – things don’t always go the way you plan.
    Also, if CHAS V’SHALOM your husband ever does go to work – please don’t treat him like second class. In the yiddeshe world there is no such thing. We are all a tzelem elokim, no matter who you are even a bum on the street is special and must be respected because he is a yid. Please don’t share your ideas with anyone else. They are very immature but can still insult.
    Before you go out and get married I hope you do a tremendous cheshbon hanefesh so you can see where are you really holding.
    As #6 commented there were many Gedolim who worked; if you can get a husband who is even a 10th of the Chofetz Chaim you’ll be very lucky.

  16. These days Girls are being brought up that it’s a sin to marry someone who isn’t in yeshiva FUll time. It is assumed by everyone that if a boy isn’t in yeshiva full time-theres something wrong with him, people just jump to conclusions. Attention should rather be put into what the boy IS and not WHat he does. You don’t judge a book by its cover. There are many good boys that aren’t in yeshiva full time and there are bad boys that are in yeshiva.Is it really degrading to marry a good boy that is a working boy?

    We have a daughter in the shidduchim stage, and there is no way that we can support.Its hard the way things are now, we have to many bills to pay. Because of peer pressure she would rather marry a boy thats in yeshiva. Why? because it looks good and all her friends also want that. When she was in seminary in Yerushalayim, she was convinced that everyone is supposed to only marry a boy who will sit in kollel. How can they talk for everyone? NOt everyone can support ? Is it right of them to lead them into such a life style? Will this whole idea wear off from her after a while.Maybe it was just that particular seminary, who knows.

  17. There is nothing to worry if he is working if he is a good boy. The stigmas are only relevant when you are on the meat market. The moment you get engaged/married you become completely irrelevant anyway in the market and nobody remembers or cares who you are married to. Do you know how many people I know that claimed they were going to learn for 5 years only to find out a year later that they were working. Does anyone remember, know, or care at that point?

  18. #12 You are both right and wrong. I understood from reading the article that the girl wanted a boy who was learning, and she was told that because of her problem, she could not hope to get what she wanted.
    HOWEVER: That is because I read and re-read the sentence, and spent much time being bothered by it.
    The article does not say that. The article leaves far too much room to understand that she would have to settle for an INFERIOR

  19. #9 In Shidduchim
    When I started reading the letter I really assumed it was a joke because who in their right mind would
    .A Think such thoughts
    .B Not be embarressed to share the ridiculous thoughts
    But as I continued on reading and learned more about you I realized it wasn’t a joke because it was writeen from a young, immature, thoughtless, and not such a bright girl! What’s the question? Of course you have these thoughts! You’re the reason people marry boys they don’t want to but do because of peeer pressure. You’re the reason parents don’t want to send their daughters to seminary.
    When you grow up a little let’s discuss these thought. Not to say learning is not the #1 way to go but to say that working is second class? What a horrible and thoughtless comment!

  20. #9 (in shidduchim(

    Dear Ms.,

    These are your convictions I do disagree with you entirely, but I will not argue with your or your seminaries “hashgafah”. However there are two points that I will like to comment from your post.
    1. “I think that NO ONE should begin working until there is absolutely no money left in the mother’s pocketbook”. What kind of attitude do you have?! Why should you mother/parents should go broke because you want to live in a naive little world with no concept of the realm. It is this attitude that makes all the working people find the kollel group are bunch of lazy couples. If you are able to support yourself living without any income go ahead. But do not bring down your family because you were brainwashed by a bunch of Rabbis and teachers that have not worked an honest day in their lfe.
    2. How dare you say ” However, i totally and completely disagree with you comment that a working boy is not a stigma! Of course it is! Working boys are second class citizens….My heart cries for all these bums who have seeped to such low levels that they have actually left the the torah learning and have entereed the goyesha work field”. What does your father do? How do you think you even were able to go to seminary. The money appeared out of nowhere?!! Also who do you think supports all the yeshivahs and the kollel couples (the group that yoyu want to join). If it was not for the “bums” that go out into the workforce you and all the kollel couples will find themselves joining the “bums” at work, or worse begging on the street. How dare you insult and belittle the hands that will one day give you substance. A girl like you, and I do say girl because a mature woman would actually think this out and realize that even if she does not want her husband to learn she would have a thankfulness for the individuals that support her and her family, should come into the real world and see what and who is actually supporting the Jewish nation. Maybe, not maybe certainly, you should go back to your precious seminary teachers and ask them to support you and your future family because if you spout your ideas, like this one, to normal people who would have supported you, these “BUMS”, they would turn their backs on you in a moments notice.
    A piece of advice wake up from whatever dream you are in and join the real world.

  21. this entire article and string of comments make no sense….

    QUOTE….I am very confused as to how an article written by sensitive thoughtful people with the intent of tearing down stigmas and generalizations when it comes to shiduchim could make such a seemingly denigrating statement regarding a large segment of our community……UNQUOTE

    the sensitive thoughtful people who wrote the article made no such comment about working boys!
    they merely quoted what this young woman told them people said to her. the quote was important to the article.

  22. Big mistake on the part of Hamodia’s editor. They should certainly apologize for this.

    As far as working boys – we have to realize that not every boy is cut out for learning. I think that the shidduch crisis will be greatly helped when people come to this understanding. Girls also need to realize that it’s not the end of the world to marry a solid, normal guy who is koveia ittim, davens 3X a with a minyan, & happens to be working.

  23. Now I get it.
    I am a working guy!
    guess thats why I am still single, and constantly being asked for donations for Kolel familys who cant make ends meet financially .
    Now only are we second tier for marriage to the learning boys , but we need to support them as well.

  24. This is to Comment 2 , i wanna know who you think you are to put down working boys , who do thinks works for and supports the learning boys?? do you learn all day that you can put down a working boy?

  25. (cont’d from above)
    … an INFERIOR boy. That is what is very clearly implied. If the article meant what you say it meant, and what I finally concluded it MUST (hopefully) have meant, then that should have been made a lot more clear.

    And the fact that it was written in a respectable magazine – public – makes it harder to overlook the “unclear” expression of the problem the girl was having.

    I’m TRYING to be dan l’kaf zechus that intelligent editors couldn’t possibly let such a statement pass through intentionally.

    In Case it turns out that I am wrong, and it WAS intentional: The absurdity of such a statement is incredible, and I can not remain silent!

    I am specifically addressing the concept of “Talmud Torah K’neged Kulo”.

    Check it out – there are many other well defined mitzvos and midos that are considered comparable to the whole Torah:

    One quick example: “Shlosha Kesorim……… v’Keser Shem Tov Oleh al Gabeihem”. The crown of a Good Name is higher than the crowns of Kehuna, Malchus AND Torah. I believe that is from Mishlei.

    I ask some of you bloggers to please bring other examples, and list them here, with sources.

    When you combine every Torah source that praises one thing above all else, you end up with a host of contradictions. Such sources are meant to teach us, direct us, and ultimately get direction from a Torah Leader about which to apply to each of us individually, and when.

    It is a gross misappropiation of a mishna – to deal the “superiority” card!

    P.S. No question, a masmid with a sterling Shem Tov is a double positive. Among many possible positives. Someone who has EVERY “best” attribute wrapped up in one person is not a normal human. PERHAPS there are 36 in each generation. There are a lot more than 36 individuals looking for a shidduch! Oh, and of course… if you look for those 36, you will NOT FIND them because they are by definition HIDDEN!

  26. #2 first of all it is clear that you have no understanding of the troubles that teenagers often have when trying to learn in yeshivos. There are many reasons for the problems and laziness is rarely one of them, especially not amongst the boys who work full time.

    Also as we are talking about shiduchim it’s likely that these are not teenagers anymore and even if they were lazy in the past that does not mean they are not better people now.

    #12 You are kidding yourself if you believe that.

  27. #9 I feel bad for you, and you’re a great example of (partially) what I think is messed up with seminaries. If you are referring to a drop out who works behind the counter of a pizza store when he should be in high school, then stop reading. However, did you ever consider all of the guys who went to top yeshivas, and learned many years longer than you did in seminary, and got their hashkofos from gedolim, who have to go to work for a number of reasons, AFTER THEY CONSULT THEIR ROSH YESHIVAS. You also obviously don’t seem to have too much betochen that everything is bashert, because you only want a boy is learning on paper NOW- you have no clue what tomorrow can bring! I myself learned in top yeshivas (I do not use that term loosely): I guarantee that I would be on top of your list by my “credentials,” but due to unforeseeable financial issues in my family, I was advised by both of my Rosh Yehsivos (one of them a prominent member on Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah) that I had no choice but to go to work. They love me the same, and I know myself that I am just as big of a talmud of them as in the past. And my wife is mature enough to know that not always do you have luxury to live off other people’s money, but also she has the confident knowledge that her husband is a BEN TORAH, by way of his actions, not by his OCCUPATION. Such naivety is disturbing, and it’s a shame girls like you (and I think that it is a big chutzpah to infer that most girls think like you, and that you are the “normal” ones) don’t have a R”Y to ask advice from…
    I hope you don’t stay “InShidduchim” much longer, and I hope you have the tremendous sense of sacrifice that may be necessary for many kollel couples; not realizing some of the hardships in advance. Imy”H you should find a suitable boy for yourself, and that you shouldn’t have to deal with the hardships that many people face in the world of parnassah.

  28. To inshidduchim

    I agree with you that marrying a learning boy is better, not because of middos. I think that the working world is very dangerous and if a boy is bein koslei beis medrash it is alot safer than working in an office around girls etc. Many times when one wants a working boy they don’t want a Torahdige life, but when one marries a learning boy and then he needs to go to work to bring parnassah which is the husbands achrayis, it does not mean your home is not torahdig. A home can still be torahdig if your husband goes to work if your sheifos are torahdig. If you married someone learning for the stigma then yes your husband should not go to work because then you loose everything, but if you marry someone learning and he has to go bring parnassah and you have a torahdige mindset you have a torahdige home.

  29. #9 InShidduchim- are you for real? Earning one’s parnassa is a fulfillment of several things: one’s obligation to support one’s wife as per the kesubah, one’s obligation to one’s kids so that others do not bear the burden of your family, and just the natural way Hashem made the world to function. This is the original way of the Jews. The horaas shaa to learn in kollel was to revive Torah Jewry after the Holocaust, which it did. It was not meant for Yidden to deride each other if they are working. It was meant to elevate us and it was an exception to the norm.
    I quote you:
    “There is absolutely no reason at all why they are sitting behind a desk all busy with work instead of sitting in a bais hemedrish learning and shteiging in Torah.” Actually, there is, it’s called MONEY. Money (and I mean enough of it, not excess of it) is the basis of shalom bayis and of everything in the family… I believe if one can, learning for a couple years is usually doable. As for learning forever…perhaps you will have a high-paying job with great hours. But, usurping parents’ money, or the wife working herself like a shmata while the kids grow up without her, or the children suffering without their basic needs… these are not Torah values.

  30. InShidduchim,
    Please, please, PLEASE tell me that you’re being sarcastic.
    “Working boys are second class citizens”??? Honestly. I also went to “one of the top institutions in Eretz Yisroel” where the teachers taught the same lessons as yours apparently taught you, except our teachers seemed to have their heads on straighter (unless you completely misconstrued what they had to say). And, like you, I was in shidduchim until a few months ago. (And yes, my husband is learning, but he does plan on earning a respectable living one day.) Boys who are in working environments are not, chas veshalom, “bums,” as you call them. There are hundreds of bums that claim to be learning full time. Boys who work are simply taking responsibility for themselves and their families, and many of them spend more time learning than those who are “learning boys.” There are boys who learn “all day” and do not have an ounce of middos tovos, and boys who work who tower above those who learn. Of course there are excellent learning boys, and of course there are “bums” who are working – I’m not making any blanket statements here. You, on the other hand, are making unfair generalizations. It’s time to overcome the nonsense that’s blinded you until now and open your eyes to the fact that not everyone (actually, practically nobody) fits the picture of the “ideal” boy that the seminaries paint. I’m not putting down the seminaries; as a matter of fact, one of my teachers told us that it is highly unlikely for a boy to be able to sit and learn for a long time, due to financial, emotional, or other factors. Only the very top learners are capable of doing so.
    It’s time for you to realize that not all learning boys are “much better off” or “great boys,” and that working does not lessen your derech eretz or middos. Wake up and smell the coffee.
    Hatzlacha with your shidduchim. I hope that it all goes well for you.

  31. In Shidduchim. You confuse me! You write you would never respect a boy whos working because he stooped down to the level of working. Well when one day your husband needs to go out and work to put bread on your table I hope you dont disrespect him! And how dare you say nebech to the girl who marries someone who works! If this is how your seminary taught you to relate to others who might not be doing the same thing as you than someone please put them out of business!

  32. Charliehall #29 said it all and so eloquently but most of you might respond: “my rebbe” said so I’m not allowed to question him”. If you blame our roshei yeshivos who inculcated us with learning and little else, you will be helping kelal yisroel. The ziknei edah were always responsible for a heilim davar m’einay h’khal and when a community suffers they remain responsible. Today frum people studying full time in yeshivos have no money for Shabbas.My wife rejoiced that I wasn’t just a learner ! Chazak ubaruch

  33. I also hoped #9 was being sarcastic. Oh boy.

    I too went to a very top seminary, one that is often misunderstood by those who didn’t go there. I loved every minute I spent there, and I feel that I came out with some very solid hashkofos. And what I heard, over and over, was to be machshiv your husband’s learning, whenever it takes place. That does not mean to starve and feed moldy bread to anyone. It means that whether you marry a Kollel boy, or a working boy whom you encourage at days end to go to a shiur and get a chavrusa, it is very often the wife who sets the tone as to the quality learning that takes place.

    One of my sem teachers told us that many people who marry learning boys, do so because of their complete bitachon in their father’s bank account. She encouraged us to be realistic, and do what we are capable. Even a wife whose husband is working, can forgo extra help, attention, etc…and encourage him to go learn.

    I did marry a Kollel-boy, and I am married for over 10 years and B”H he is still learning. However I don’t give myself major credit for this. It is really b’chasdei Hashem that I was blessed with a good parnassah that I am able to do from home, and still have time for my children. Everyone’s situation is different, and none of us can judge or look down on anyone else.

    I admire some of my sisters, whose husbands work hard all day to support them, and then come home to a hot meal, a kind word, and assurance that their Torah learning means the world to their wives. My sisters give up their time, help, etc….they have even been involved in helping their husbands network to find chavrusas. They epitomize what chazal have said about “Nashim b’mai zachyan…” Ashrei chelkan. I imagine they are on a higher rung up there than I am.

    #9 My brothers-in-law are erliche, honest, baalei tzedaka and yerei shamayim. So is my husband B”H. Only Hashem knows who is more. They are exemplary fathers and husbands. You have alot to learn, or you wouldn’t be so quick to stereo-type.

    On top of that, not everyone is cut out to sit and learn all day. There are plenty out there who get up late, and sit and shmooze. I hope you don’t end up with one of those. In the meantime, please don’t generalize so much.

  34. The comment from the girl in Hamodia illustrates how far the chareidi world’s attitude towards work has diverged from the traditional Torah attitude towards work. There are numerous sources in our mesorah that support the notion, and possibly require, that a husband should work to support one’s family (perhaps people should read what the kesubah says about this topic).

    Any student of Jewish history knows that the current phenomenon of thousands of married men (and in Israel entire communitites) who do not work and live off of communal funds simply did not exist in Jewish history until our generation. (I am not reffering to people who learn in a kollel for a few years after marriage and who intend to serve the klal as Rabbonim or mechanchim). It is amazing that a community that purports to strictly follow the mesorah of past generations so flagrantly ignores that mesoarh when it comes to the isue of working for a living.

    As is well known, there are numerous sources in Chazal that warn that a person should work so that he will not resort to dishonest conduct in order to support his family. Are we less susceptible to dioshonest and unethical behavior than Chazal? The numerous purported bnei torah who engage in dishonest behavior when dealing with government programs, taxes etc. only serves to illustrate how wise it would be for the frum community to start listening to Chazal rather than to to some misguided teachers in Israeli seminaries.

  35. #9
    WOW!! you really really really should go get your mind set straight-that will be a lot of effort and time.

    what chutzpah do you have to say such a thing? who are you to judge?
    i pity your husband if this is how you look at a guy going out to work!!!

    if you want i know of a great psycologist.

  36. Ok so I am reading through all the comments and I don’t know what to write. I was completely serious with what I wrote before. Why in the world would I chas v’shalom be sarcastic about such a serious thing! Chas V’sholom! That would be pure laitzonus. I am actually not too familiar with the internet, and someone had to show me how to write in a comment and how to log in. My parents really try very hard to shelter me and keep me protected from the shmutz in the world. They brought me up that working people are not for me. I am sure that they are great people since they have a tzelem elokim and I am therefore obligated to respect them (even though admittedly I have a hard time respecting them) but I am not obligated to marry them.
    I don’t understand why my posts are immature as some people called them. That is my outlook in life and I think that I am being very realistic. My teachers in seminary told us countless stories about kollel yungerliet that are struggling to support their families, yet they are continuing to learn Hashem’s torah and rely on Hashem to provide for their families. My father is still in learning and I admit that we don’t have so much money, but still I love that my father learns Hashem’s Torah and I would want my chosson to do the same thing. My mother doesn’t even let me be friends with girls who fathers work because they have different values than my families. I don’t think that my family is better or more frum than them, but we just have different values. I think that to have a husband who is learning is a wonderful thing and its almost mandotary, after all, doesn’t it say “Nashim B’mey Zachyan?”. I feel bad for the girls who marry husbands who are working, because they don’t have the zchus of supporting learning husbands, so how will they answer to Nashim B’mey Zachyan. Its really a scary thought!! That alone is why someone should want to marry someone who is learning.
    Someone commented that I only would want to do that because all my friend’s want learning boys. I think that is a wonderful peer pressure. Instead of having the pressure of clothing and styles and all the other shmutz, I have the pressure of a learning boy. I want it Lishma, not because my friends want it. Its not an in style thing for me to have married a learning boy, rather it’s something that I see mandatory in order to build a befitting bayis neeman b’yisroel.

    I hope that I chas v’shalom didn’t insult anyone who is working. Im sorry if anyone has felt slighted in any shape or form. I just wanted to express my view on the matter. I already did a cheshbon hanesfesh and this is the ideas and goals that I am aspiring to!

  37. #9-

    It’s not her fault, most girls who go to seminaries in israel come back talking like that. Seminaries are at FAULT for brainwashing them to get all frantic like that. My daughhter came back just like #9 but it took time and effort to undo the brainwashing that she got there. Its a straight YEAR of brainwashing.They make them feel very guilty and bad to marry a working boy. Also the get influenced by the environment- all the teachers and rebbis in seminary live a kollel life. Think about it, If its possible to brainwash people to blow themselves up its definitely possible to brainwash these girls into marrying only kollel forever.Hopefully #9 will come back to earth.Just curious maybe my daughter went to the same seminary-#9 which seminary did you go to if you dont mind me asking?

  38. Going back to where this all started, obvoiusly this article in Hamodia was originally written in Israel, where there is such closed mindedness about these things and absolutely no tact about anything. There is nothing wrong with a working boy if that is what the girl is looking for – especially if he is Koveia Itim. (I am writing this even though my husband did learn in yeshiva for over 10 years after our marriage and our oldest son – who is now a chosson- is planning on doing the same.) This is not the first time something dumb has appeared inthe frum press and this is not the appropriate forum to protest.

  39. yitzchokm:

    i have to disagree with you complaetely and tell you not to “stereotype” “working teenagers”. I was working at a younger age than most and it was a psak i got from a rosh yeshiva of the largest yeshiva in eretz yisroel! (figure it out). and i can honestly say after all my friends went through the routine b”m program, israel, etc they all went to work. now dont say “its your friends” bec i have a huge mixed crowd. you dont know why that teenager is out working or who told him to do what hes doing. so dont “label” us right away. im machshiv torah more and learn more than any of my friends whether in kollel, b”m or working. and after a long hard day, which everyone has, to go and sit with a chavrusa for 3 hours and try to conquer and finish the mesechta is no easy task. so before you talk, you should pic yourself in our matziv.

  40. Comment #9 is scary. I guess not everyone living in Teaneck is modern orhtodox. Such suffering for a shidduch ? Is that mesiras nefesh ? – sounds strangely christian to me…lol

  41. #18 – NoFear – so well said so succinctly.

    InShidduchim –

    I don’t even know where to begin. With all due respect, this wonderful world view you have (and I do too), this idealization of living a Torah lifestyle is missing something.
    When did aspiring to a Torah life become elitist? When did it become condescending towards others, especially those who it may be difficult for. Where did we go wrong?
    What’s it all worth? What’s that goal worth?!
    Isn’t a Torah life about loving others for who they are? What’s with the highly judgmental, nose-in-the-air attitude towards perfectly normal people who do something different than you do? You may want to live a sincere Kolell life with your husband learning because he can and he enjoys it…but, I’ll say it straight – Derech eretz kadma L’Torah.
    Honey, it’s worthless if our passion and energies are used to disparage those that don’t hold by the same Veltunshung.
    Oy lanu, what have we come to? To aspire to a lofty ruchnius ideal while discrediting our brothers and sisters? Why would our Father want our Torah learning if we dont accept our siblings for who they are?
    I sit here and cry, how our values have turned upside-down.
    If you want something for yourself, go for it. I daven that you find a husband who loves what he does and is sincere and honest. I also daven that you be able to view any Jew as equal to yourself, no one external thing makes one person better than the other. I sincerely daven that Hashem help you normalize your view.

    Additionally, try to think about possible reason people work (R”L). Their mommies pocketbook is already empty, they have noone able or willing to support them to the tune of at least a few thousand dollars. They may have one of countless learning disabilities (which i prefer to call learning differences) that prevent them from enjoying long, hard days of learning. or their biological maekup prevents them from sitting in one place and focusing on one thing for hours. or they need to make money to eat to live another day to spend time thanking Hashem for their lives so they can serve Him and learn His Torah or help His people?!?

    Why the totem pole? Aren’t we all in this together? Aren’t we Torah and Mitzvah observers for the same reasons? Please tell me if I’m wrong.

    I also went through a nice 13 year long Bais yaakov education, in New York City. The Chinuch in my house was one of thinking about your own Judaism and self before judging others, welcoming all kinds of people with open arms and an open heart. Am i describing an extinct race?

    I would love for my husband to be able to learn Torah on a full time basis because he gets a thrill from learning G-d’s word, he appreciates being a frum Jew and wants to plumb the depths of the Torah’s invigorating waters so he can apply it to daily living. I don’t know what will be and how things will work out. I’m struggling with the myth of the (I cant even use that terminology of 2nd class..uch) “working boy,” and have gone out with these ‘tainted creatures’ of whom I have been impressed by. Nu? What’s the ikkur? We’re all (hopefully) looking for sincerity, truth, good people in our lives. We need to remember that sensitivity in Middos and in mindset are so important. So I’ve reached the conclusion that I’m more concerned with WHY he’s doing something than WHAT he is doing. Doesn’t that make sense?
    Please tell me what you think.

  42. Wow! good job “confused in Teaneck”, and “inshidduchim” for that matter. You really got everyone worked up here!

    I must say that i find all these comments here EXTREMELY entertaining!

    (just as an aside, coming from s/o who would like my husband to learm one day IY”H) It is completely unfair to be sooo closed minded as to say that everyone has to be a specific way. We are all klal yisrael no matter what path you choose. everyone has to decide what is best for him/her and does not have to fit molds…that’s when the problems start when everyone has to be the same

  43. # 9–when and if u do ever get married, call me so i can watch you eat moldy bread, have no food in the house, make sure ur husband is learning ALL DAY WITHOUT WASTING A SECOND, watching ur kids walk around clothless, having no heat, ni car, no money, no friends, no nothing so i can laugh at you! u chutzpinyack!

  44. #18 – NoFear – so well said so succinctly along with all the others. I began writing this when there were only 12 comments, I was horrified to see that noone rebutted InShidduchim’s terrifically egregious comment.

    InShidduchim –

    I don’t even know where to begin. With all due respect, this wonderful world view you have (and I do too), this idealization of living a Torah lifestyle is missing something.
    When did aspiring to a Torah life become elitist? When did it become condescending towards others, especially those who it may be difficult for. Where did we go wrong?
    What’s it all worth? What’s that goal worth?!
    Isn’t a Torah life about loving others for who they are? What’s with the highly judgmental, nose-in-the-air attitude towards perfectly normal people who do something different than you do? You may want to live a sincere Kolell life with your husband learning because he can and he enjoys it…but, I’ll say it straight – Derech eretz kadma L’Torah.
    Honey, it’s worthless if our passion and energies are used to disparage those that don’t hold by the same Veltunshung.
    Oy lanu, what have we come to? To aspire to a lofty ruchnius ideal while discrediting our brothers and sisters? Why would our Father want our Torah learning if we dont accept our siblings for who they are?
    I sit here and cry, how our values have turned upside-down.
    If you want something for yourself, go for it. I daven that you find a husband who loves what he does and is sincere and honest. I also daven that you be able to view any Jew as equal to yourself, no one external thing makes one person better than the other. I sincerely daven that Hashem help you normalize your view to a more mature one.

    Additionally, try to think about possible reason people work (R”L). Their mommies pocketbook is already empty, they have noone able or willing to support them to the tune of at least a few thousand dollars. They may have one of countless learning disabilities (which i prefer to call learning differences) that prevent them from enjoying long, hard days of learning. or their biological maekup prevents them from sitting in one place and focusing on one thing for hours. or they need to make money to eat to live another day to spend time thanking Hashem for their lives so they can serve Him and learn His Torah or help His people?!?

    Why the totem pole? Aren’t we all in this together? Aren’t we Torah and Mitzvah observers for the same reasons? Please tell me if I’m wrong.

    I also went through a nice 13 year long Bais yaakov education, in New York City. The Chinuch in my house was one of thinking about your own Judaism and self before judging others, welcoming all kinds of people with open arms and an open heart. Am i describing an extinct race?

    I would love for my husband to be able to learn Torah on a full time basis because he gets a thrill from learning G-d’s word, he appreciates being a frum Jew and wants to plumb the depths of the Torah’s invigorating waters so he can apply it to daily living. I don’t know what will be and how things will work out. I’m struggling with the myth of the (I cant even use that terminology of 2nd class..uch) “working boy,” and have gone out with these ‘tainted creatures’ of whom I have been impressed by. Nu? What’s the ikkur? We’re all (hopefully) looking for sincerity, truth, good people in our lives. We need to remember that sensitivity in Middos and in mindset are so important. So I’ve reached the conclusion that I’m more concerned with WHY he’s doing something than WHAT he is doing. Doesn’t that make sense?
    Please tell me what you think.

  45. Lets hope # 1 was a setup to generate interest. When she goes out to work to support her husband of course in a “heimish office” so as not to be to much out in the world the bum she refers to is writing her check. That is if she can get a job in the first place with her vocabulary skills- or lack thereof

  46. Also, just thought of another thing….

    Grata, talmud torah is a chiyuv for men, so is tznius equally for women, somehow that’s not made as much of an issue, as well as many other mitzvos. when anyone is confident that they are keeping ALL mitzvos COMPLETELY, then they can start looking down on those that don’t

  47. I had the same thoughts when I read that line in the Hamodia. I hope someone writes a letter to them about it.
    Why is everyone taking #9 seriously?
    On the small chance that she’s not joking, she’s not mature enough to be taken seriously.

  48. inshidduchim

    BLUNTLY the fact you don’t see what you wrote is a problem, that alone is the problem.

    now if your such a heilig girl, you may want to leave the internet, i’ll surely miss your pathetic comments but if your going to marry the next rosh yeshiva(i give you a bracha you should find him soon)you may want to exit.

  49. On 2nd thought, I doubt InShidduchim is even a female. It sounds like a man making fun of girls. I’m sure he’s sitting laughing at his computer that so many people think he’s actually for real.

  50. #64, im really upset that people don’t think that I am earnest. I thought that my ideals were pretty common amongst my friends and i thought that at least people won’t yell at me for what i am saying, but how dare you tell me that my comments are immature and that i am not open-minded and that i need more ahavas yisroel, when 80% of these comments are out to get me and hurt me! What about my feelings? im sorry if anyone was slighted in any way, and maybe i regret what i said, but to put me down and especially to blame it on my seminary is compeletely unfair. I thought that Yehsiva world is a wonderful thing for people to express thier opinions, but now i see it as a bashing place. Why in the world would i make somehting up like this? I did’t even think of such a crazy idea. How could someone make up something like this? That would be completley unfair to other people who are reading this. I see that my opinions are really not so down to earth, but instead of criticizing me and making me feel like a complete peice of garbage, id greatly appreciate if someone gave me constructive criticism and explain it to me nicely how my attitude should change. thank you for listening

  51. #9 i hope youre family is very wealthy because im sure that after they see your letter they realized that they WASTED 20,000 dollars on your seminary. You really need to grow up, and start thinking for your self not just parroting what you hear from the head of your seminary, (who by the way if was someone we should be listening to should have gotten a job in a Yeshivah not a playgroup (A.K.A. Seminary)

  52. It’s interesting that of all the comments on this thread only #31 seems to have picked up on a key point – that the so-called shidduch crisis (i.e too many girls and not enough boys) is largely a creation of the subculture of girls that believe that marrying anything other than a full-time learner would be a failure on their part. They are unfortunately being let down by a system where their interests and those of the boys they are looking for, are dramatically out of allignment. They all want to be grabbed up by boys who will will recognize their sincerity and willingness to sacrifice for Torah, while the boys are looking for the girls who, all other things being equal (or maybe even not so equal) come from the most finanically comfortable homes – and who can blame them? They don’t plan to work. Natuarally there is going to be a mismatch as not only will their be 10 boys for every 9 girls (as the current demographic theory of the crisis is so quick to point out) but those 10 boys all want to date the 5 wealthiest girls. Problem.

    I do not believe that those girls who have come to grips with the idea of marrying a working ben torah (something most of their mothers were happy to do 30 years ago) are experiencing quite as much difficulty getting dates as their learner-seeking counterparts.

    Without repeating too much of what has already been said, I continue to be baffled by this generation of girls (and their mothers) whose insistance on on dating only full-time learners is essentially labeling their fathers (and husbands), who for the most part were working at or shortly after marriage, as less frum than the boys they hope to marry. It’s doubly amazing when you consider how many of these now 50-something men are accomplished bnei torah, askanim, and community leaders, who who in many instances can learn every bit as well as the sons-in-law they are supporting. (Maybe their sons-in-law should support them.)

    Deep down I suspect that many of these fathers don’t really buy into what they are supporting, but find it easier to write the check than to change the world.

  53. Come on people! You don’t realize “Inshidduchim” is a troll? I laughed at the first 45 comments, but 64? Mostly in response to someone is likely shaking from laughter at the reactions?

    My vote for the best line: “I am actually not too familiar with the internet, and someone had to show me how to write in a comment and how to log in.”

    Being that Inshidduchim has graced us with his comments on previous threads, this one was a real winner :). Please, fellow posters: you’ve made his day already. The poor original Teaneck author must be very frustrated by this thread hijacking!

  54. What frustrates me is that even some seemingly sensical people are saying that people who work can’t hack kolel or “not everyone is cut out to sit and learn all day.”. First I know investors, lawyers, doctors etc. who are tremendous Masmidim who actually choose to make a parnasa. This is not a bidieved and I find it insulting to assume that they could not hack the learning hours of a Kollel life. Second I seriously wonder how many Kollelite are “cut out to sit and work all day,” And then go learn.

  55. Ok…I went to a Bais Yakov seminary (one of the famous ones).I was told that a bas Yisroel SHOULD only marry a talmud chucham. Since women do not have the chiyuv of learning torah, our husbands do and by us supporting them, we get the schar from their learning.Our role in this world is to support our husbands that are in kollel. If a husband learns, we will have a good marriage and a yideshe good home. They made it clear that we shouldn’t marry working boys, and it’s very wrong to since boys that are learning are better than others. My teacher told me that no one can learn forever, and that its impossible, however we should be moser nefesh for learning and our husbands should learn until there is no choice but to stop.The only thing that brings happiness is when our husbands are in kollel learning.

    These are the values that seminary’s instilled in us, we are supposed to only marry boys who will learn. We shouldn’t compromise or listen to anyone who opposes these haskofos because it’s the right thing to do.It says talmud torah k’neged kulam. We were told numerous stories on how wonderful it is to have the zchus of a husband in kollel.I may sound brainwashed, they explained to us that we are really not, it’s the real us because deep down its what we really want and that ppl are just jealus.

  56. In Shidduchim you write “my mother doesnt let you be friends with people whos fathers dont learn”! Oh my gosh I cannot understand how you wouldnt be embarrassed to actually admit that on a public forum. I always heard that some people are like that but I always found it hard to believe. What has this world come to! And if this is a joke and your just writing this to make people angry my have you succeeded!

  57. To the original message.

    You read it in the Hamodia, not Commentary magazine 🙂

    What do you think a paper that caters to the segement of yidishkeit that believes, “work” is a four letter unmentionable word, is going to write about “working boys”. The writer is interested in working through the stigmas that affect his/her circles and the circles that readers of Hamodia belong to. “working Boys” dont belong in that circle. A working male sibling is probably a stigma that will be discussed in an future article! You are surprised that the writer has no qualms about writing that a girl with a “genetic medical syndrome” will have no choice but to marry a “working boy”? Had the author written that she would have no choice but someone mildly retarded would that have been better? In my opinion, working boy in the opinion of the author of that Hamodia article is probably just a step up the ladder from “someone mildly retarded”.

    It should be pointed out that if not for those “working boys” who support all the Mosdos, many of the “learners” would all be out (gasp!) working.

    To the one who wrote that “Working Boy” means “a boy who works as a teenager. Instead of learning in a yeshiva, he works.” Is this some sort of Purim joke? If it is, I dont get it.

  58. Just for everyone to know: INSHIDDUCHIM is not a phoney and she isn’t joking. She did go to seminary and her view seems the same as she wrote above.SHE IS REAL and i even think i know her.She wrote in a different post a while ago:

    I am reading all of these posts are tears are nearly welling up in my eyes. At the same time, i burning with anger, getting more and more aggravated as i read through all of these shameless and horrible comments. It breaks my heart to see people relentless and unabashedly put down and mock all of the wonderful institutions. I am saddened that people could be so nasty about something that is such a wonderful thing. I just graduated from one of the top institutions in Yerushalayim. The amount that i gained from being in Eretz Yisroel for one year is indescribable. The opportunity of simply being able to visit the kotel whenever i felt that i needed to pray, or the opportunity that i had to visit my amazing teachers whenever i needed tended loving care or just needed to shmooze to them. I gained so much from Eretz Yisroel. Going to Eretz Yisroel is a big zchus. Its an opportunity that no one should give up . When parents are willing to sacrifice 20000 for their teenage daughter to be able to have an opportunity to be in Eretz Yisorel for a year, i think that they should view it that their daughter is amassing and collecting diamonds. She will enriching herself with values that will help her build a bayis neeman b’yisroel. They should think of it as an investment opportunity that will yeild great return. Their daughter will come back wealthy with mitzvos and yiras shamayim that she has obtained from her wonderful mechanchos. Anyone who didnt go to Eretz Yisroel for seminary or never sent a daughter there has no right to bash seminaries! Its a wonderful thing! Im curios on what others have to say, because i spoke to several teachers about this topic, and they all agreed with me wholeheartedly that seminary should almost be mandatory for bnos yisroel of klal yisroel, since they are the future aim b’yisroel of the next generation. I went to Eretz Yisroel and i feel that so should everyone!!

    Comment by InShidduchim — February 20, 2008 @ 3:24 pm

  59. inshidduchim:

    Okay I admire your strong appreciation for torah that most def is a good thing. but along with that has to come an appreciation of people that are not the same as you. while supporting talmud torah may be one of your strong points. another person can excel in other areas on avodas Hashem. one of the reasons we are in galus is because each one of us feels that we are better than yenum b/c….(fill in the blanks). you shouldn’t change your views on how YOU live your life, you just need to change how you see others. I’m trying to be constructive…no one can make blanket statements as to what other pple should be doing everyone has to judge what is best for himself and yes i would agree that learning isn’t for everyone. Both yissachors and zevulans are both incredible contributors to klal yisrael

  60. seminarygirl18 a.k.a. InShidduchim: enough is enough. It stopped being funny after the first 1 or 2 posts.
    on the other hand I don’t really blame you for keeping at it as long as there are still people who believe you’re real.
    Does the name TammyTammy mean anything to you? Just curious. V’hameivin Yavin.

    to all the other commenters – why are you wasting your energy?

  61. “working boys are second class citizens…”
    marrying a learning boy is an “ikar”
    but bein adam lechavero, being dan lecaf zechus, or simply a mentch can all be placed aside as long as your husband learns….

    that is just sick.

  62. Please excuse “InShidduchim”. She is a patient of mine, and is undergoing treatment. Obviously, the medication is not working… We were hoping to avoid this, but we may have to do electro shock therapy.

  63. EVERYONE SHOULD READ THIS.
    ESPECIALLY #9

    IM A BOY IN MY TWENTIES AND I LEARN FULL TIME IN ONE OF THE TOP KNOWN YESHIVAS ( DONT WANT TO BE MOTZE SHEM RAH).MY PARENTS ENCOURAGED ME TO SIT AND LEARN SO THAT I WILL GET A TOP GIRL THAT IS ALSO RICH.IM NOT SAYING THAT I DONT LEARN, I DO. BUT MANY BOCHURIM LEARN LO LISHMAH.I KNOW MANY THAT GOT GREAT SHIDDUCHIM BECAUSE THEY ARE IN YESHIVAS AND IM SURE I WILL TO BECAUSE TOP GIRLS WANT LEARNERS. I DONT UNDERSTAND MANY BOYS, THEY SHOULD JUST SIT AND LEARN AND THEY WILL GET A GREAT SHIDDUCH. WHY GO OUT AND WORK HARD ALL YOUR LIFE WHEN YOU DONT HAVE TO? THESE DAYS WIFES CAN SUPPORT MEN WHO ARE IN YESHIVA! IM ALL THE WAY WITH THIS NEW SYSTEM! IT DEFINITELY WORKS FOR ME.

  64. 71, thanks! 31, I too want to make it clear that we have to change this mindset – boys may leave full time learning earlier than the norm NOT necessarily because they can’t hack it but because they don’t want or expect to be bankrolled.

    Girls out there, know something very important. It is true that nashim, how are they zoche, by facillitating the menfolk’s learning. Whether full time or not, it is not just olam haba but sweet in olam hazeh too. BUT that is not your purpose in marriage. Your purpose is to build a bayis neeman beYisrael!! It is actually possible to have a bayis neeman even if the husband is not learning full time. I realize this is a very radical thought, but we have to start focusing on the concept of bayis neeman!1

  65. chazal tell us that after 120 years when go b4 the kiseh hakavod to give din vcheshbon we eill be asked a number of questions.
    1 kavite etim ltorah did you make a time to learn?
    2 nasat vnatata byosher were you honest in your business dealings?
    these two questions prove that you are expected to work. you can come to that by deducive thinking.
    the gemara says that a city was supposed to have 10 baatlanim (10 kolel guys) who would be supported not 100,000. if the guy is worthy of being one of the 10 baatlanim he would never marry a girl like #9 whos middos are obviously lacking and she knows how to use a computer and internet.

  66. I don’t think the author is stigmatizing; she is quoting what was said to her at the time. Yes,
    unfortunately, in today’s upside-down world, a young
    man who earns a parnassa before he is married is looked down upon. It seems that today we are so
    religious that the partnership of Yissochar & Zevulun may only have as its “working” partner, the
    government – in the form of food stamps, HUD, medicaid, etc. or the parents who presumably earned
    their money when working was still permitted!

  67. I PROMISE THAT I AM NOT “INSHIDDUCHIM”.It happens to be that I googled “InShidduchim” and all her other posts came up. Because people were saying that she is not real, so i wanted to see whether that’s true or not and I found out based on her previous posts that she did go to seminary and that she is very for it. Don’t just judge anyone until you know forsure!

    you can see for yourself she is post #55 in the rejected to seminary article by clicking HERE.

  68. The article extremly offended me..it would show a lack of decency on part of one learning in yeshiva.. its sad how the guys learning in yeshiva are so picky about the gashmius.

    BH makes me glad I dont learn full time, I am a businessman at 22 and learn torah and would never reject a girl for such a reason.

  69. Working men can have more moser nefesh for learning than learning men themselves. I’d love to see a learning boy get up at 5 am to go learn daf yomi. Working men can work for 24 hours straight at their office trying to get a project done, while a learning guy has to have 2 hour breaks 3 times a day just to be able to ‘clear his head’ so that he can have the stamina to keep on learning. When InShiduchim gets married, I really hope she doesn’t have to learn the hard way how incredibly hard it is to make a living these days. There are weeks that I see my husband only on shabbos because he leaves so early in the morning and doesn’t come home until late at night after he comes home from work. I respect him that much more for his ability to wake up at the crack of dawn so that he can learn before he goes to work, and come home to go straight to a shiur. Shame on her for saying she wont respect her husband when he goes to work. When I see a learning boys rushing with their tallis and tefilin at 9:15 and he is late for shachris, I am upset.

  70. seminarygirl18:
    yup, the fact that you (under your InShiddchim name) posted on the seminary thread definitely proves you are real. To someone with an IQ of 10, maybe. I mean, it can’t be that someone would post troll posts under the same login name on 2 separate days on 2 separate threads, right?

    And moish613 is either you or a wannabe. If it’s you, at least you aren’t pretending to be the opposite gender for once.

    I think I should take my own advice and stop wasting time answering you.

  71. #9 In Shidduchim

    Your top seminary has failed you in so many ways, because they missed teaching the Derech Eretz Kadma LaTorah part, since you obviously learned no middos at all. All the Rambans and Rashi’s you’ve spend studying- and you still have the audacity to call a yiddishe neshama a “bum”?

    Before you discount the Zevulun part of the learning partnership between Yeshachar and Zevulun, consider the fact that “bum” might actualy one day be the reason that your future husband’s has a Kolel to learn in.

    By the way learning boy…might not be so interested in a girl who goes on the treife internet.

  72. moish613

    I really hope I don;t land up going out with you! i dont want a husband whose learning b/c he has to! and to get a good shidduch nonetheless!??!?!?!

    if you’re looking for money, I’ve heard from gedolim, you may land up with not the best of children

  73. ok, this is my first time leaving a comment. i just couldnt resist.

    in shidduchim: I happened to also be in shidduchim and I also went to a top seminary. yet, I totally disagree with the things you are saying, like many others. When shidduchim started being suggested for me, my parents asked me what kind of a boy I was looking for. I said I wanted a boy will learn for a long time. That was what I wanted. Bbut, realistically, I knew I couldn’t have that since my parents are not in the position to financially support for a long time- especially since i have other siblings married. However, I am more than happy for my husband to learn the first few years and then work.
    “In Shidduchim”-to work is not second class. What world are you living in?? How do you expect people to pay their morgage and buy neccessary things, never mind holidays etc, if they didn’t work??

    And to moish613, I sure hope your post was a pre-purim joke. You said you are in a top yeshiva- take a look at the way you speak and explain to me what you are actually learning from being in the top yeshiva? “THEY SHOULD JUST SIT AND LEARN AND THEY WILL GET A GREAT SHIDDUCH”- is that why you are learning toirah?? Is that what you are going to tell your children when they will go to yeshiva?? Im looking for a ‘top boy’ like any other girl would. But if this is what boys who go to top yeshiva’s are like, I would rather take an ‘average’ boy. With a real value for toirah. With true midos.

  74. #9- I want to know what seminary you went to so I can be sure to never, ever give them a dime of my hard earned money. You are truly disturbed. I feel bad for your eventual shidduch.

  75. Working Boys Do Not Despair!!

    You have 2,000 years of mesorah and halacha that is explicit in a man’s obligation to work rather than be supported from the public coffers. A person was even allowed to sell himself as an eved ivri rather than put out his hand and schnorr. Whatever horaas shoah that R’ Ahron Kotler had, has long expired. WORK. That is what we are expected to do. Only those willing to subsist on virtually nothing who want to be muchtar b’keser shel torah like InShiduchim’s basherte may receive tzedakah funds.

    BTW, supporting our wives is a D’Oraisa that is doche talmud torah.

  76. could everyone stop talking to the troll commentor as if he is real? Why are you giving him the satisfaction?
    I’m embarrassed on behalf of all of you that there are so many gullible people out there.

  77. Just in case “InShidduchim” is real:
    I’m sure your father is a chashuve person, but what do you say about all the Gedolim (and your father who tells you not to associate with working people isn’t one of them) who are close with ba’alei ba’atim? I’m not referring to $ relationships, I’m talking about former talmidim who ask them everything who happen to **** (work is a four letter word it seems)

  78. #9 You have DEEPLY insulted many ehrlche hard working men with this comment. I will not say much. All those criticizing # 9 have said it SO well! Ever heard of ga’avah? Not every ‘boy’has wealthy parents and most who don’t,have parents who have the best middos and daven properly. Derech Eretz kodmo laTorah. You show no D.E.,so don’t tell me about Torah. Torah does not pay the bills or pay for a wedding. Money does. And,most of us try to earn our little bit of money the honest way.Also,without getting undeserved welfare,donations,food stamps and section 8.

  79. I agree that marrying a kollel boy is not realistic unless the parents are very wealthy. Whay should parents support the children and who will support those children when their parents arent around????
    A boy who works has his head in reality!
    I would only date a boy that works b/c my head is not in the clouds!

  80. My head hurts from all the comments!!!!

    About the main article. Honestly I am not sure if the author of the Hamodia article wrote it in there to spike up some feedback or actually didnt realize that they were labeling and giving stigmas them selves. I feel bad for the Genetic med issue girl and I know that there are special shadchanim that work with these sensitive cases. However to make such a comment about that nebuch you’ll have to get a working guy is really a very strong senseless comment that should be apologized for. I DO hold that learning is the most chashuca thing a guy can do on this earth. However a guy that works and is kovea itim and Toirahdik is a regular class. Not second class. Just regular and sometimes even more chashuv than that. That’s for G-d to decide.

    Yitzchokm- True that many teenagers that are working have nebuch fell off the cliff… but for goodness sake. Lots of very good bachrim just arent making it in the pressure of the top yeshivas and are very skilled and talented and they are doing the right thing by wrking as long as they follow up witht the other stuff too!! You have no right to “BUM” them.

    as for “INSHIDDUCHIM”- I thought you were one of my brothers as I read your comment… then I realized my brother is in the Beis Medrash and had no access to the internet. so much for that. You probably went to the same Yeshiva as him tho!!! You do a word for word of his making fun of girls! sorry you dont deserve more of a comment then that.
    Go get help if you are by some unlikely chance a girl that is “for real.”

    Why may ask did the Gedolim bring in a parnassa but today there are so many that snob their noses to “Workers” like you arent as good as me. true they arent zoiche to stay in the hallowed halls all day long but workers are not nebuch. unless their specific side situations make them such!!!

  81. By the way In shidduchim- I cant resist this… you remind me of a good old Kunda tape….
    “My great grandmother, kenayinahara, has no teeth, Baruch Hashem, how can she eat the matz…?!?!”

    Sorry just had to rub it in.

    Hope you are enjoying the feedback you wanted. Good job!!

  82. Matchmaker…. Your a GAON!! I dont believe it!!! mazel tov mazel tov!!! Who gets shadchanus? YW or you?!?!?! go fight it out!

    HAHAHA happy purim!!!!!!!!!! well almost!

    nameless- great idea…. holykugel might even want to give the premarital counseling the gedolim have been suggesting.

    oh me oh my…. now ya go me hummin Od yeshama!!
    hehehehe

  83. Dear InShidduchim,

    I am sorry that you got such ugly comments to your comments. Even if people do not agree with your ideals there is still an issur of onas devorim and I believe people owe you an apology in this regard.

    If you are so ideal as you write, I give you credit since it is hard to be ideal in such a cynical world.

    Just as a piece of well meaning advice, idealism is like a push to get you in the right direction but it does not last forever. Please don’t be disappointed if life does not work out according to your ideals. If your ideals get you even one iota closer to Hashem’s ratzon then it was worth everything.

    P.S. Keep in mind that Hashem’s ratzon is broader than learning the whole day, especially when it comes to His ratzon for a wife’s job. At the end of the day, He will not ask you how much your husband learned. He will ask that to your husband. You will be asked if you supported him in his ruchnius. Ruchnius is the all encompassing road to avodas Hashem. Torah learning is part of that, but not exclusive.

    Since you indicated that you came back from seminary recently, I would also suggest you speak to your mentors if you are confused about the comments here. You should probably also try to keep away from this site since you see that people are not on the same wavelength as you and you are just getting negative feedback.

    I sincerely wish you hatzlacha in whatever life brings you.

    If you are interested to continue this conversation, you can contact me through the editor. I am not interested in everyone else’s comments.

  84. InShidduchim, apparently you have no idea what it is to struggle or to be in pain. I have a condition that can leave me in pain. We do have so much less shidduchim read to us ‘abnormal girls’ because we of course are apparently less capable then you are. Even though we have been forced to improve our middot so much faster we are still not as good as you are. You have no idea how hard it is to be in pain, do your school work, cook, run a house, and remain in a good mood at the same time. I hope you never have to understand what I’m saying and to deal with doctors and medications. I don’t care if I marry a working or a learning boy because I have learnt middot on the opposite pole of yours are so much more important than what the boy does.

  85. Everyone should stop being so harsh with InShidduchim. We have to be nice to every yid, even when we disagree. That being said, I have a few words for both InShidduchim and seminarygirl18. I say this because I love every yid, and I think there are some things you should know, so that you don’t learn them later through yissurim, r”l.
    Reality hits hard when you’re prepared for it; it hits 100 times harder when you’re not. It’s very easy when you’re young and single to say that you can handle the hardships that come with the kollel life, but you have no idea what it’s really like. It’s easy to dismiss those who work as “bums” or people who care more about gashmius than ruchnius, but what about when your children have to wear tattered clothes? What about when the prospect of every yontif brings heart palpitations instead of joy? What about when to continue in this way, a woman will have to work long hours and leave her children with a goyishe babysitter? It is easy to say money doesn’t matter, that it will not get in the way of shalom bayis in MY marriage, but how do you know that until you are married and must balance a budget?
    Furthermore, it is not fair to say that working men cannot have the same kind of torah home as learning men. Believe me, my husband has friends who learn full time and all their children ever hear about is how the Cohens and the Levis are so successful in their businesses; he also has friends who work full time, but their children see that the happiest parts of their days are the 5 am daf yomi, the lunch-hour chavrusa, that after-maariv chavrusa, and chazara with their children. So tell me now, which is the real torahdige home? Also, what you consider to be true mesiras nefesh (and I admire your readiness to be moser so much) may be a crushing, intolerable burden to another. I grew up in a very wealthy, secular home. Between becoming frum, marrying at 20, moving to a yeshivish community in Eretz Yisroel, working part-time as a teacher, and my husband works 6 hours and learns 6 hours, I gave up alot. True, my husband in not a full-time learner, and true, we are therefore much better off financially than most ft kollel families, but I gave up a lot. I’m not saying I am a big tzadekkes, far from it, but please know that the life I chose to live is very different from the “American Dream” upbringing that I had. Hashem understands that a life of total poverty for me would be biting off way more than I can chew. Also, as a teacher, my hours are pretty much the same as my children’s, so I never need to leave them under the care of another.
    You need to also understand that the statement of torah shikula kenegged kulam cannot be taken literally. First of all, the are about 6 other mitzvos about which Chazal say that, so if taken literally, it could not work mathematically. Also (and I admit my bias here), living in E”Y is one of those 6. If you are so quick to say that everyone must learn all the time because of this statement, why not also say that everyone should move to E”Y, and whoever doesn’t is a “bum”. I hope you can see how harsh that would be if I said that, how it doesn’t take reality into account, how it ignores the legitimate reasons that many people have for not doing so. You need to be the same way about talmud torah. That is why your post upset so many people, it is never fair to write off ANY of klal Yisrael, especially not those who are living fulfilled torah lives.
    Lastly, please know that ft kollel is not a l’chatchila- it is a bracha, a privilege from Hashem, just like health, wealth, children etc. As with all brachos in life, He can extend it for as long as He deems fit, and can take it away at any time for any reason. Like other brachos, He could grant it for life, but He could also decide to grant for only 10, 5, 1, or no years. Even the wonderful arrangement my husband has
    9half time work, half time learn) is not so pashut, or easy to come by. As readily as you would be mekabel the test of poverty, so you must be ready to be mekabel the test of your husband needing to work if necessary. What if, after 5 years, your sister is ready to get married to a learner, and your parents cannot support you both, and decide that as you have had 5 years of torah-learning bliss, they are going to now support your sister? It would be selfish to deny her the privilege, and Hashem will give you a greater reward for allowing her to have it. So please don’t judge- another mitzvah! I cannot believe that every single girl who ever graduated your seminary married a learning boy; nor can I believe that the seminary is at all ashamed of those who married workers and built batei neeman b’yisrael. I wish you much hatzlacha and brachos!

  86. OMG!! These are the funniest comments Ive read on YW I was seriously cracking up from the comments [email protected] first when I began reading “In Shidduchim”‘s comment Im like k shes so making fun of those brainwashed sem girls & then I wasnt so sure but now I beleive Ive come to the conclusion that She/he (dunno which1) is definitely ridiculing the stereotyped ‘brainwashed’ sem girl – theres just no way living in the 21st century s/o can be THAT narrowminded unless she grew up in some foreign strange place that I dont know exists .
    Anyway as far as working boys- I’m in the shidduch “game” also and although I would very much like to start off with a learning boy , I am open to going out with working boys as well because many of them have a very important middah-which is responsibility which many learning boys havent yet learned , also working vs. learning doesnt tell you what TYPE the guy is it merely tells u what he is doing! I have gone out w/ working boys who were frummer than learning & learning guys whose hahkafos were so twisted & corrupt!
    I did not go to sem in E”Y I went to a brooklyn sem & our teachers did NOT brainwash us all to marry full-time learners rather they instilled in us the importance of being kovea itim & supporting ur husband’s learning -meaning if you give up an evening out w/ ur husb or forego his helping you out to allow him to go to his night shiur-thats sacrificing for Torah & supporting him ! I am thankful that Ive gotten the right hashkafos (I feel anyway)
    also one thing that was instilled in me from my schooling and home is whatever path e/ one chooses -never to look down @ it -it goes both ways dont look down on the working families & dont look down on the families who havent upgraded their car in the past 5+ yrs either bec the father is learning..diff strokes for diff folks
    In the merit that we’re all more accepting of one another may we celebrate the feast of PURIM with mashiach next friday! Amen!

  87. I am working many years,others have told me I have at times spent more time learning than most so-called full-time learners. My wife spends much much more time with my children than virtually all women in the community, and very very little time having to interact with other men like many women working, who bring this altered hashgafah home with them to their children. I sleep well at night, relying only on H’ for my parnassah.

  88. 87,maybe those 2 questions go together. IOW, if you are in the business of having someone else support your 24/7 kevius itim, you’d better be legit.

  89. 99, you mentioned a boy learning for a few years and then working. Many people consider those kinds of boys second tier. But what do you mean, 3, 4 years? Do you have any idea how much mesirus nefesh that can involve, especially if the couple isn’t getting support? When did we start talking this way? Sometimes (and 99, I don’t mean you when I say this) when I hear the way people talk about those who only learn, or only plan to learn, fulltime for a few years I feel like telling them to wash their mouths and brains out with soap.

  90. After reading a number of the comments, I have to say thank you for the laughs–especially that Shmuel Kunda reference–it’s k’dai to listen to if you have it (the longest pesach)….

    As far as stigma in shidduchim–we must learn to think for ourselves, and only let in positive peer pressure—(most people think that they think)–get the right hadracha—and daven. HKB”H is the Divine Shadchan–we must be honest with ourselves and pursue shidduchim for the right reasons…l’shaim shomayim….

    May all those looking for their zivug get the right hadracha, and find their bashert b’karov, and may it be a smooth quick journey.

  91. I have the perfect solution for InShidduchim: I highly suggest you do some research for Yeshiva tuitions for boys and girls. After you have paid maiser, house payments, car payments, insurance fees, utilities, food, clothing etc. I would like to see how you are able to survive. I’m assuming you plan to live off of the governments handouts, pay less tuition (which option is only available for kollel families – made possible by raising tution from working families..your welcome). Even with said aid, you will likely see things differently with a more realistic view of how much it costs to live in our society. If you want real feedback, I think you should sit down and crunch the numbers. You will see that working men have a huge ol on their shoulders and that they take time out of their days to study torah and instill torah values into their respective families. I’d like to take this opportunity to praise the working boys who become fathers and providers and still take precious time out of their hectic schedule to learn Torah and create a atmosphere of Kedusha in their homes.

    I plan to do a lot of research before sending my daughters to seminary to make sure they learn how to appreciate every person and respect people from different backgrounds. Unlike your parents, I encourage my daughters to be friends with the precious Yiddish neshamas in their classes and in our neighborhood for I believe it is important to learn as much as we can from others. Please try to work on your derech eretz and improve your middah of ben adam l’chavairo.

    I believe that this type of outlook is negatively affecting the difficulties with shidduchim.

  92. this is for inshidduchim comment number 9. A SECOND CLASS CITIZEN!!!!!!!!!!!!! where do you come up with these statements. we are younger than you and we even know our values and have our priorities set straight. it say vasafta diganecha. obviously there are exceptions but there are not many people that have the ability to sit all day. in europe they worked and learned. are you planning on going to college? where do you plan on getting the money to fully support your family. and to tell you the truth half the people these days dont even learn lishma they do it in the beginning for shidduch purposes so you are calling us the nebbachs that have to settle with second class but i think you should rethink that notion.

  93. ok I’m alittle behind with reading all these responses but everyone keeps commenting on “inshidduchim’s letter but I’m actually curious… do you consider girls (not talking about boys) who want working boys, “second class” to you?

  94. Twenty years from now, many of the “working” boys who are considered “third tier” will be independent, with their own homes and families. The “top tier” learners will still be dependent on their aged in-laws and the community, with little employable skills.
    I can well see the “workers” giving the charity collectors a good swift kick in the rear when they come collecting for the local kollel. And rightly so, Don’t hink all the working boys don’t know what is being said about them.

    Anyone ever hear of Aesop’s fable, “The Grasshopper and the Ant.”

  95. In shidduchim, just in case your real, my heart goes out to you- If only I could knock some reality in your brain. by the way, you don’t need to eat moldy bread- you could go to the soup kitchen- then we’ll know who you are (just look for a family eating together- without cloth on)

  96. inshiduchim
    if you are real: i dont get what would even make you think of going on the treifa shmutz filled internet that you should even come to try and post a message! whoever it was who helped log in must be a bad friend and a poor influence on such a holy and pure mind like you. I’m sure your mother would not approve of your freindship! whoops i forgot shes probly too busy managing her 5 different jobs to notice who you associate with…(I’m assuming shes still trying to work off the seminary debt she unfortanately inccured for you) why dont you give her a little nachas and learn some tzena rena…
    If you are a phony: 1. thanks for the laughs, although your doing an awful lot of bittul zman on other peoples accounts… having them sit and read these comments… 2. i think its about time you should just admit that your a fake, that way all of us can have a good nights sleep knowing the truth.
    ps. either way no need to feel like a peice of garbage, you still have a change to do teshuvah and reform your unfortunate way of life!

  97. ok so basically i made a big mistake today. I read the original letter today and figured why not have some fun and write an extreme letter to see what people think. I actually wanted to condone an experimnet and see how people would handle such a post. So i wrote it in, and did not have such a fun day ever in my entire life! First of all, im sorry if hurt anyone’s feelings! I was completely joking! I do not feel at all that it is wrong for people to work! But what made me really nervous was how people are so quick to judge, comment, and bash seminaries. (this im serious about!) i put in the 2 lines about my seminary having an effect of what kind of boy i want to marry, and suddenly many people posted bashing all the seminaries and waht they teach us. And i didn’t chas v’shalom mean to call anyone bums. I completely made up anything and once again apologize for any hurt feelings.

  98. phew!! i knew that she made it up!! i had such a feeling when i read her letter that she was making up a whole story! It didn’t make sense that she would post such a crazy thing!! Ppl in my office were ranting and raving about it and they were really upset about it, so i had a bet with them that she was making it up! and sure enough, i won!!
    Inshidduchim, you really have a lot of chutzpa and i mush say that i am quite unimpressed with you. I hope that you won’t be this deceiving in when it comes to your shidduchim!! Please don’t ever do this again!

  99. I also had another thing to add:
    I have NO OTHER SCREEN NAMES!! i am not tommytommy as one writer thought i was, and i am not seminarygirl118. i was only inshidduchim adn that is it!!! So b’kitzure don’t judge others that they are me (inshidduchim) because they are not!!!
    im sorry if i ruffled anyone’s feathers!!

  100. inshiduchin

    like all criminals (sorry for this terminology) you gave yourself away. you are the same person as seminarygirl18. if you seminarygirl18 “think” you know inshiduchin why is there a need to google? also, someone helped you login… but you are only friends with “elite” people who do not know themselves how to login… also, how where you able to post comments in the past without help. anyways, you are deffinetely a yeshiva bochur who is bored, always in the internet comenting in this site. go back to the gemoro or at least to work. i am sure you will change your name and continue to act like this under a new name. hey, do you need help getting a new email?

  101. Joking on other people’s cheshbon is not a good idea. You caused hurt feelings, lashon hara, onas devorim, bitul zman, and gnaivas daas along with probably other things. Think before you act next time.

  102. 117- tzippi: Im confused why people would consider boys who learn for a few years and then work “second class tier”. Maybe in your community. But not in mine. “Do you have any idea how much mesirus nefesh that can involve, especially if the couple isn’t getting support?” Yes, I do realise how much mesiras nefesh goes into learning for a few years, especially when there is no financial support. I have seen many examples of that. However, please read what I wrote. My parents can’t support a long term learner, however, for a few years, they are more than happy to and able to. Otherwise, I would never put that on them.

  103. the truth is inshidduchim you actualy did a wonderful service to all the working boys now. Though you were joking, there is always a bit of a truth to humor. So you are obviously very passionate about boys sitting and learning all day. Which is good I’m not going to arugue about that. Halevai I can be on that madraiga! But amazingly, alot of people here actually defended boys who are working in this world as opposed to full time learning so these boys can feel relieved that there actually not considered “second class”. So thank you for doing that! (wait why am I thanking you for them?!)
    About seminaries and brainwashing. I dont feel its wrong that girls want to marry learners. I actualy think alot of them really truly are on that level (Altho I do feel its wrong to call any bachur learning in yeshiva a “full time learner” but thats a whole topic I’m not going to get into). Like I said before its actually a very high madraiga that I wish I was on. My seminary had a different impact on me. They didnt train me to marry someone in learning (maybe becuase I didnt allow them to). They trained me to love torah so much much that I actually left feeling that I wanna marry a working boy so I can just sit and learn all day! 🙂

  104. With regard to comment #136 by Pashuteh Yid,I submit that it was NOT A BITUL ZMAN. Chas v’shalom. Over 136 of us communicated regarding the challenges of shidduchim. Is this not part of yahadus ? V’ahavata l’reicha kamocha – z’eh klal gadol b’Torah suggests that we never insulate ourselves from each others’ concerns or pains. Please consider that the halachic basis for arvus, for being motzi one another, is based on kol yisrael areivin zeh b’zeh.Bitul zman ??????? Communicating with each other is wonderful especially outside of the beis medresh. Would we have been here if not for: “v’yishak Ya’akov l’Rachel ” ? Was that bitul zman, lol ? Learn with ahavas Hashem not with personal gaavah. You think that American yeshivas are worthy of such kavod even saving the world ? Perhaps you have erred. Sadly, the ramah of Torah learning at Lakewood was far from erudite and plenty of bitul zman occurs daily in the presence of open gemoras. We are here to communicate with each other. Chazak ubaruch

  105. to inshidduchim

    now if we can get such frum girls to have such personality on first dates that would be doing a gr8 service to us diseased working guys

  106. Hi 135. Your solid hashkafos came through in your original post and that’s why I excluded you from my rant. And to everyone else, pardon the rant. But I’ve been in shidduchim with some of my kids for a few years, and I can’t count the shadchanim, friends, people I’ve talked to who bandy about the phrase, “learn for a few years” with a “just” in front of it, i.e. he wants to learn “just for a few years.” Those boys apparently aren’t the ones who will go the distance. I guess they’ll never crack open a sefer, never make siyumim, never write their own sefarim, never be roshei kollel (as in senior kollel, which are often led by chashuve talmidei chachamim who spent their entire married lives working)… You get my point. Off my soapbox.

  107. Hi Tzippi/ 141. Your rant was a mere expression of your strong feelings. Why apologize for that ? Thank you for your input. Those who wish to advocate full-time learning are free to opine so and Baruch Hashem there are also those that don’t. The challenges that shiduchim present for our frum community create valid and important dialogues and we are put in this world to communicate as well as to serve Hashem. Chazak Ubaruch

  108. Judging from all the comments it would seem that certain conclusions cn be drawn for instance:

    1) Many believe that the kollel phenomenon is a good thing for klal yisrroel.
    2) Many would seem to agree that it isn’t necessarily the right thing for everybody.

    The real question that emerges is where to strike the balance?.

    Do we believe that full-time learning after marriage should be the norm that the overwhelming majority of girls seek. Or should it be fairly exclusive terrirtory reserved for those most suited for it.

    If the people on this forum who think the system is broken ever expect anything to change, they’re going to have to be willing to say “When my daughter enters the parsha I will be perfectly happy to have her date ehrliche bnei torah who are working”. Until that happens, nothing will change.

    You know, it’s worth taking a moment to reflect on the generation of yeshiva boys and girls who came of age in the 60’s and 70’s with their children who have come of age in the 90’s and 00’s. From where I stand it would appear that the older generation were wildly succesful in accomplishing exactly what the yeshivahs claimed to want in those years – frum baalei batim.

    That generation is packed with lawyers, doctors, accountants, and businessmen, who all attend shiurim (or give them), are meticulous in their shmiras mitzvos and who – and this is important -see fit to channel much of the financial success they have been given into more institutions of Torah and Chesed than Judasim have ever known, and which managed to produced the poskim, teachers, and leaders needed to drive these institutions. I would say that the Roshei Yeshiva and Menahalim of the 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s can say a great big “mission accomplished”.

    So here is the question to which I can’t figure out an answer:

    Why, then are we so seemingly embarased of the path taken by that generation that we feel the need to direct the next generation to a completely different path that would, logically, seem to have little chance of repeating the same level of success?

    And please don’t tell me that I have no right to predict what will be succesful because it is all up to Hashem. You can take that approach, but if you then there is no point to making any personal decisions at all. Ultimetly we have a resposnsibility to make responsible decisions based on the best wordly information and practical considerations we have.

  109. InShidduchim,
    the havoc you caused is unbelievable!! You wasted thousands and thousands of people’s precious time and had a good time on their expense!! You acted quite immature and most people were not impressed! What were you thinking? Why do you find it entertaining to make people upset and hurt working people. My husband was outraged that a girl can even think like this. He wanted to post, but he was too angry to even have patience to sit down and tell you how immature and senseless your thoughts were! You made people go out of thier minds and hurt them so.
    Please rethink about your terrible actions, so that this disgrace does not happen again!

  110. Dear In Shidduchim,
    Firstly: How immature are you? How bored are you? Who does such things?
    Secondly: You may have been joking, but sad as it may sound there are many people out there that think the way your letter did.
    Hashem should all of Klal Yisroel to always do the right thing with the right intentions.

  111. Dear InShidduchim, you may have been kidding and just trying to get a reaction from everyone but there are people who feel the same way you stated in your original comment. There was a girl in my class in seminary who always said that she would marry the Godol Hador. When she found out that her husband didn’t have what it took to be the Godol Hador, and the Rosh Kollel had told him that maybe it would be time for him to go out and find a way to support his family, while still keeping a foot inthe yeshiva, she divorced him. She had no respect for him. Unfortunatly, instead of some mechanchim and mechanchos teaching girls and boys that theyneed to respect their spouses, no matter what happens, they are taught that if he can’t sit inthe yeshiva the whole day and if she isn’t able to support her family while running a household then they aren’t worthy of each other’s respect. Hence, there are so many divorces these days. The torah was built from the beginning of time, that the husband is the one who is suppose to support the wife. That is why it states that in the kesuva. One of the reasons for this is when the husband supports his wife a. he feels responsible for her and her needs and b. she feels cared for. This builds for a natural relationship. What is going on today is Avodas Perach that we had in Mitzrayim. the whole world is messed up. Who are suppose to support these large families. The children are learning fromthis not that it is Git Zu Zayn a Yid but that it is Shver tzu zyn a Yid and that is possibly why there are so many kids at risk today. The whole world is topsy tourvy. Don’t get me wrong. I feel that it is important for a husband and wife to start off their lives with the husband sitting in Kollel but each case needs to be looked at individually and if their parents are killing themselves so that they can do this I don’t think that that is a Mitzvah. After all, Doesn’t it say if someone causes a parent to bleed he is chayov mesoh? Kal Vechomer, if he kills him slowly by working him to death so that he can keep up his kollel lifestyle, is he also not chayov. You want to tell me that the parents want to do it. There are some who definitly want to, no matter what sacrifice it is to them but you have many who are forced to as these are the preconditions to marrying off a child. By the way, aren’t the Rosh Yeshivas and heads of these seminaries who are pushing the young people to only stay in Kollel and Rachmono Lezlan for the husband to go to work and bring home a parnosso to the house, aren’t they ina sense working and bringing home a parnosso to their families?

  112. To Inshiduchim

    Look at the Medrash to Parshas Vayigash which explains why Yaakov Avinu at first did not believe the brothers. The PASSUK says “VAYAFAG LEBO VLOH HE”EMIN BAHAM”. Why didn’t he believe tehm? Yaakov Avinu knew the brothers had lied and even when they tell the truth they are not believed. You prepared 3 posts and now I should belive it was all a joke?

  113. inshidduchim—i didnt find your joke funny at all. dyu think this is hefkeiros???? wheres your respect for people and for the life they wanna live?

  114. ok can everyone please leave poor inshidduchim alone? i think she suffered enough ridicule. she apologized publicly and theres no reason to keep rubbing it in .

  115. ok i dont know whether inshuddichim is joking or not-she can do her own cheshban hanevesh and she has to live with that—but that fact she thinks she can have fun on the internet, bec noone knows who she is -thats wrong -u have 2 account for every single person whose wasting their time that can be spent learning or sleeping reading this, getting upset by this immature persons outlook on life—–
    first of i dont think she was joking but was presured in2 saying she was joking —and the reason shes board with nothing 2 do but see how people will react is bec she has so few friends because very few fathers r still learning when they have a daughter old enough 2 be in shuddichim and after all she said” My mother doesn’t even let me be friends with girls who fathers work” -so inshuddichim i dont know if what u said is emes or not (i think think partially true) get yourself a job or something to support your husband and stop wasting your time on the internet

  116. To number 9: First of all I will be dan lkaf zchus here and assume that your whole post is a joke. But in the event that it is not here is my opinion. Are you out of your mind!!! I would like to please have the name of the so called “top” seminary that you went to so I can prove a few things to your teachers. How can you say in your right jewish mind that a working boy is second class and a “bum”. You are one of those girls who has this dream all planned out because she got brainwashed in seminary. If only you would write your real name so i can find you and blast you face to face. You have just brought me so much anger you have no idea. It is because of people like you who have such corrupt views that caused this whole shidduch “crisis” to begin with. If you are looking for a boy that will only learn, then where will the money come from? So obviously either your father of future father in law(nebach for him) will be supporting you because they WORK!! Are you calling your father of father in law a bum? I dont think such an amazing girl like you so humbly say you are would do that.My sister told me about your post and I just felt so sick that someone could write these things. Did you ever here of Yissachar and Zevulun? If no one works then who will support all these people learning. I personally think that this whole learning business has gotten way out of control. When did it become a “obligation” that one has to go to Maalot Dafna for 2 years after he gets married? But that is a different issue. As to #9, please somehow write your real name and where you can be reached so maybe some sense can be knocked ino you.

  117. This is for comment number nine: You sound so infantile and unprepared for life its quite scary. How you can possibly say such erroneous comments is mind-boggling. The fact that you would not respect someone over the fact that they work shows your true character. You are a fraud and unfortunately very immature for someone who is dating. Please do not write such comments in the future and before you do,learn how to spell.

  118. OH me oh my…. the truth comes out…!!

    However, I must say- this was one of the most geshmake discussions (aside from some of the rude remarks) but I think a lot of chashuva zachin were discussed and frustrated feelings vented out and relief by the fact that it was a farse. in shidduchim- good job on getting lots and lots of ppl to express their opinion on the matter… though I still dont think it was a nice thing to do especially because even though it was a joke it really was insensitive.

  119. i have never responded to a blog post in the past, but this has really opened my eyes. I am a single working ex-yeshiva guy. I am up at 6:30 for shacharis, put in a full day of work, then come home for a night seder. It is beyond me how anyone can believe that this lifestyle is somehow inferior to a yeshiva life. I defy you to find one yeshiva bachur who is really fighting for his torah, or has given any thought to how HE wishes to relate to his creator. I will grant you that having a support network of rabbeim and older bachurim can help you in a passive manner, and allows you to pass on the onus of productive reasoning, as well as give one the feeling of community, but that is a sign of a non-self actualized person- not a sign of a healthy person.

    i also wish to take issue with some of the proofs that working boys are inferior- especially those who claim that being in yeshiva protects you from the outside world, making a learner inherently better- once again this strikes me as strange. if anything that is a “shev v’al ta’aseh”, and you cant expect anyone to really base a persons true value on what they HAVENT done!

    I agree with most of you, when you say that a person needs to be careful in choosing a shidduch, and that its important that the potential husband has a foundation of spirituality and a stron moral base, but that can only come from a conscientious decision- no amount of “time put in” can do that for you.

    I wish everyone clarity and the ability to see what truly matters in choosing a mate.

  120. I really have rachmonos for you inshiduchim. I first of all don’t beleive that your original post was just a joke and if it was and you say you just wanted to see how people respond then where is your avas yisroel that you brought up?!?!? I read your post and felt overwhelmingly upset and sad to think that this is how members of klal yisroel actually think!yet I don’t completely blame you. Parents and school that feel that they are sheltering their children from all the gashmious, the terrible outside world don’t go about it in the right way. What kind of message does it send to fellow Jewish people that their Own think that they are iternally darned to ghenim!!!!!! When you think this way you are literally turning away yiddisha nishamos!!!!I really feel that these Parents/insitutions do more damage then good when it comes to this subject!To each his own!who are you to say who’s fufilling their tachlos or not?
    This whole seminary think is upsetting aswell.The way you speak makes it sound like you’ve been brainwashed your whole life and that is not what a toradica life is supposed to be like! a real nebuch that you were jipped of solid foundation in torah and Yiddishkite!!!!Half of these people that say they want a learning boy and that C’V they get a working guy (, because he has no yiras shmayim!)are twisted. thats pure gashmi , they don’t want what hashem wants they want what their friend ester malkas has because its “the right thing to do”( but don’t get me wrong B”H their are people who are able to learn a life of pure Torah and for pure reasons and it is an amazing thing!) but to say that since a guy who either doesnt have a learning head or doesn’t have that drive in him for learning isn’t a good guy and no one should marry him is pure chutzpah!!!!the rshlolm is the only one that gets to deside that not us!
    I could go on for hours, but I will not because it truely hurts me to think of klal Yiroel in a bad light. I hope everyone finds clarity in this trying issue.

  121. Are you kidding me ? you actually claim that it is a sin to work ? Listen here confused in teaneck if not for people working just how on earth do you think people in lakewood and all these other so called kollel yeshivas would stay open hmm? yes obvious that hashem does not need us baal habatim to keep it open but we are his shiluchim..its called being a partner in torah..that is clearly mashma its 50/50 !!

  122. I think that labeling a boy who works as “2nd rate” or not as good as the rest is very wrong. I think that the important thing is his middos, and his yareih shamayim, and not whether he works or learns. Some learners are not great boys and some workers are wonderful boys. It would be a shame for people to look down on boys who earn a living. I also think that saying what the article said can hurt boys who do work. I hope this mistake is not repeated.