Israeli Independence Day: The Israeli flag at Ponavez

66

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ponavez flag.jpgThe Israeli flag flown at the Ponavez Yeshiva in Bnei Brak every year on Yom Ha’atzmut.


66 COMMENTS

  1. Boruch Hashem, one yeshiva has the brains to realize Kol Yisrael Arayvim Zeh La’zeh. We can have our differences and still love each other. Now we need to do ONE MORE THING: On the wall of every Yeshiva, we should hang up a picture of the 3 Shvuyim (captured Israeli soldiers) so that zechusim of the learning by our b’nay yeshiva, the Army of Ruchnius, should hopefully bring them home b’karov. Isn’t this why they get an exemption from the regular Israeli army?

  2. hey thevoos,

    what is the bizayon?

    are you so blind with your hatred of fellow jews that you can’t agree with the roshei yeshiva who obviously feel this is a good idea?

  3. Feif UN: non of the people you mentioned established the custom, they merely tolerated it. And, zfeld: What does it have to do with Kol Yisrael Arevim? Flatbusher: who said anything about recognizing an entity? The question is if you are proud of it – to fly its flag, or not. Incidentally, 364 days a year Ponevez doesnt fly the flag- are they Hamas on those days??

    In general, in the name of that flag:
    =thousands of Yemenite payos were cut off
    =HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of sefardim were SHMADDED, +millions of Jewish schoolchildren are being raised without knowing what Shema Yisrael is.
    +Its also emblazoned on the lapels of those who senselessly beat bochurim who happen to be passing a few blocks from a hafgana…
    =as well as that of the thousands of storm-troopers who cruelly dragged 10,000 Jews from their homes 3 years ago.
    =And finally, in connection with today’s news, its also the flag of one of the most corrupt ‘democracies’ on the face of the Earth.

  4. I find it very interesting how our Gadolims words mean so little on some subjects(like this one) and so much on other subjects. What a Stira!

    When Israel was about to be be formed most Orthodox rabbis said that creating the state of Israel is against the Torah. For one, because only Maoshicah can do so. Plus after israel was formed the Israeli army started violating the common Halachas that have held the jews together since Har sinai.

    But I guess thats what being Jewish is all about. Only following the laws that feel right!

  5. WHY CANT EVERYONE JUST KEEP THEIR OPINIONS TO THEMSELVES. EVERYONE WHO WAS BORN A YEHUD IS STILL A JEW. WHETHER HE FLIES A FLAG, DOESNT FLY A FLAG, GOES TO DAVEN, DOESNT GO TO DAVEN. ONE OF THESE DAYS HOPEFULLY SOME PEOPLE WILL WAKE UP AND REALIZE THAT THEM BEING RIGHT AND SHAMBLING OTHERS FOR BEING WRONG DOESNT HELP MASHIACH COME TO THE WORLD.

    IM SURE R YOEL TZL DIDNT GO WASTE HIS TIME SHAMBLING OTHERS JUST LIKE YOU ARE DOING TODAY ! I HAVE MADE THIS POINT MANY TIMES BEFORE, ANYONE WHO FEELS THEY ARE SO RIGHTEOUS AND LEARNED THAT THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO LOOK DOWN UPON OTHERS (A TERRIBLE ISSUR BTW) SHOULD CUT THEIR INTERNET WIRE AND GO BURY THEIR HEAD IN A GEMARA. IF YOU ARE NOT LEARNING ALL DAY LONG LIKE THE GEDOLIM OR EVEN THE LOCAL RABBIS THEN WHO ARE YOU TO LOOK DOWN ON PEOPLE. GO READ IGGERET HARAMBAN MAYBE IT WILL GIVE YOU A CLUE AS TO HOW TO LIVE YOUR LIFE.

  6. Reportedly the Ponevezer Rav said that one should have -some- measure of Hakaras Hatov to State so he therefore instructed that it be flown 1 day a year. Obviously, nearly no other mainstream chaderi place does that. And even in Ponevez, they only do it one day a year!

    So there they have ‘mesora’ of sorts to do it, despite it being a bit ‘tamuha’. But noone else does!

  7. If you don’t agree with the state of Israel (the anti religous, anti torah State) does not mean that your with Hamas (Hamas also has tzinias rules, shicita and so on, as we do li’havdel). Yes all Jews are brothers and we must love each others
    even though the Israelis hate us frum Yiddin. BUT we should not loose our minds and torah values and be associated with the state of Israel

  8. Thevoos: If you want to look at the negative in every event, let’s analyze the “gedolim”
    – 6 million jews died because the gedolim told them not to worry. This is just a test from Shamyim.

    – Millions of jews are self hating jews because the gedolim do not stop the behavior you show towards other jews. Instead of loving them, you put them down and kick them while they are down there.

    – Instead of discussing real issues like child pediphilla among the “Rabbonim”, they talk about concerts. How many innocent people were destroyed by this short sight?

    -Where were the gedollim when “the thousands of storm-troopers who cruelly dragged 10,000 Jews from their homes 3 years ago”??? As long as their government funding is flowing, you can ignore the other jews suffering. I did not see ONE gadol in Gaza during the evacuation. This is exactly what happened in Alexandria during the CHurbon Bais. As long as Alexandria existed and had their Gedolim, the bais hamekidah was a sad event, but not a life moving one.

    -Where were the gedolim when “HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of sefardim were SHMADDED”?? Oh, I forgot, the children were not Ashkinazi so these yeminites were not their problem. This problem STILL exists!!

  9. To thevoss

    Your anger at the state of Israel is clear and frankly mostly understandable. But to use the term ‘storm troopers’ to describe the soldiers who evacuated Gaza is revolting.
    As wrong as that whole fiasco was and is, and as terrible as it was carried out. The fact of the matter is, had terrorists shown up during the process and attempted a killing, every one of those soldiers would have gladly given up their lives defending all the setllers , to their last breath.
    I don’t need to tell you what storm troopers did.

  10. Kol Hakavod.

    Way to go Ponivich! Unlike others who make ridiculous statements (gasp, an Iraseli flag! We’re too frum for that!!!) Ponivich has no need to dress itself up in a faux shell to sell itself.

    #11

    Ever heard of being mispalel l’shloma shel malchus?

    Maybe that’s why.

    #14, you’re 100% right. The problem is, some people like to measure Frumkeit by their own opinions. Luckily, G-d does not use their faulty measuring stick.

  11. how can any of u b proud of d medinah, if they dont behave properlly?? they represent ur idishkeit?? sorry to tell all of u but there were many great gedolim who wernt stupid or anything and said dat d medina is against idishkeit. They r here to lahaross d dishkeit from us. What did they do to the kids dat they brought from Yemen?? They brought good, frum, naive yemenite jews, kids, and made them become non-frum??? Stole their kids for what?? to LAHAROSS UL’ABED their and our idishkeit. Shame on you for being so proud of the medina n their tsiyonim!!

  12. storm troops
    plural noun
    a group of soldiers trained specially for carrying out a sudden assault.
    • a group of people likened to such soldiers : the volunteers became the storm troops in his upset victory over Oregon’s senator.

  13. # 9 “Thevoos”:
    Let me start off with saying that I am anti zionisim (a lot different than an anti Zionist).

    Your statements are not just hateful, but actually lies.

    Lets start with..

    In general, in the name of that flag:
    =HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of sefardim were SHMADDED.

    Shmad?? What are you talking about??

    +millions of Jewish schoolchildren are being raised without knowing what Shema Yisrael is.

    Another mistake, every single secular child in the secular school system knows what shma is and actually says shma. There is no seperation od church and state in Israel and every child learns Tanach daily. Chabad and other great orgs are in these schools teaching about Yiddishkayt before every yom tov.

    +Its also emblazoned on the lapels of those who senselessly beat bochurim who happen to be passing a few blocks from a hafgana…

    Vus hut boidem tzoo tun mit klutz?? I was convinced that mishmar gvul only beats frum people for demonstrating, until I went to a demonstration in Tel Aviv after a bus blew up (about 10 years ago). Believe me, the petch they gave the fray people there was 5 times worse than any hafgana and I was at many of them in Yerushalayim. Magavnikim are taught to beat people, it has nothing to do with frum people.

    =as well as that of the thousands of storm-troopers who cruelly dragged 10,000 Jews from their homes 3 years ago.

    This has everything to do with politics and who is in power and nothing to do with the flag.

    =And finally, in connection with today’s news, its also the flag of one of the most corrupt ‘democracies’ on the face of the Earth.

    Agreed! But so what? I am an American, will I burn my flag because I disagree with my government? Will I spit into the bowl that is feeding me? How about E.Y being the first and only country to ever give $$ to people that seat and learn Torah in Kolel??

  14. ok… there is a difference between hanging a flag on july 4 n on yom hazmaut. us- is a goyishe medinah n we have hakoras hatov 2 them 4 bing a malchus shel chessed, but Israel, their yidden, we should cry when we c that so many kids in Israel r brought up n do things dat even low goyim dont do, n 4 dat ur proud, or have hakoras hatov?? they r only desire is 2 put u off d derech, they dont have good intentions…
    so many of our brothers, chayalim, r being killed daily, so many kids became yessomim, n r saying kadish, is dat normal??

  15. #14
    As a kolleman, as you refer to yourself, Being for or against the entity of Israel need not be an issue bein adam l’chavero.

    It is an issue of Hashkafa which the gedolim felt was a part of torah that the masses need to know as knowledge and to act upon when these issues arise. For those in E”Y that is a matter that arises often not only in the historical context.

  16. Howcome everyone listens to their rav when they say you have to wear a white shirt etc which is not halacha at all, just hashkafah and then they look down on others which is a grievous transgression according to ALL gedolim from all walks of life yiddishkeit, chassidic, hareidi, yeshivish,young israel, EVERYONE.

    If anyone thinks that by not standing up for a siren that makes them a “better jew” or more “frum” jew, than they are in for a serious reality check after 120. What happened to derech eretz kadmah latorah. You know what, were smarter than the tanaim, amoraim, rishonim, acharonim so lets throw that out of the window in favor of our new model statement ” what chumrah did you learn to do today”. I once heard from a very big rabbi that anyone who publicises the chumrot that they do, its better not to do it at all. To do them in private tabo alav beracha but to walk around as if youre better than everyone else who doesnt do it is asoor.

    FOOD FOR THOUGHT:
    Rav Avigdor Miller tzl once told over the following story from the ravs days in Slabodka. There was a student who took upon himself to show up to shul on friday night for prayers 2 hrs early and to sit and learn to bring in the shabbat with more kavod. One of the Rosh Yeshivas asked him one day “how do you feel when people walk in 2 hrs after you got there for prayers”. He responded that he felt as if they were violating the shabbat, after all he has been there for 2 hrs already and they come in so close to shabbat. The Rav told him, from now on you have relinquished your right to perform this mitzvah…you have to show up 2 hrs later with everyone else.
    OF COURSE THE REASON BEING – IF YOU ARE GOING TO DO SOMETHING GOOD AND IT CAUSES YOU TO LOOK DOWN ON OTHERS, BETTER NOT TO DO IT. ONLY L’SHEM SHAMAYIM 100% IS GOOD.

  17. My.02

    I think you need to defend that stastement that most of the gedolim support the idea of the State of Israel especially with it’s secular ramification. I believe even Agudath Yisroel would be offended by your statement. I fear you are a victim of your own ideas here. Don’t blamr that on the Gedolim. They have not created new ideas but are trying to be guided generally by the prior generation’s.

  18. To anon1m0us1 —

    “I did not see ONE gadol in Gaza during the evacuation.”

    This is not true – the Great Bostoner Rebbe went to give them chizuk – it was carried in all the papers. Everyone agrees he is a great tzadik and someone who is still mekarev all Jews.

  19. TO anon1m0us1

    1)I would be very careful about “blaming” the Gedolim for the fact that 6M Kedoshim were murdered

    2) I heard the Tolna Rebbe (JLM) speak up several times at public droshos about having feelings, being mispallel and doing whatever was possible for the Yidden of Gush Katif…..

    3) It’s too easy to always find someone else to blame…

    Kovoid HaTorah please.

  20. in the 60’s, 2 satmarers burned the israeli flag [or put swastikas on it] in front of the israeli consulate in nyc.
    R’Yoelish ztl threw them out of shul for a number of months.

    if u dont like it, so dont look
    if your taiva to look and schilder yidden[af al pi..] then u r the baal avera

  21. the medina is the best thing that happened for jews after the holocaust.

    My family was stuck in germany because no country wanted them.

    Remember Israel always has room for the jews. When the winds change and we are forced out of the USA (as is in France) where will we go?

    I asked this to the idiot moshe hirsh. he could not give me a response

  22. The story goes that the Ponvezer Rav raised the Israeli flag because he said that when the Yeshiva was in Lithuania they flew their flag on their independence day and Israel is not worse.

  23. Feif un, the reason why they are flying the flag is 2 words Hakoras Hatov. Its that simple. They receive a lot of money from the state so they feel it will be a patch in panim not to recognize the state. Thats all.

  24. #20 I don’t think you should continue saying such things since it’s apikorsus. yes apikorsus chazal say anyone who talks bad about the chachamim is apikorsus. And besides the fact you’re just wrong in every accusation you made.

    #27 I don’t know where you live, but it’s true that there are thousands of Israeli children who don’t know what shma is, they don’t know what shabbos is and they’ve never heard of almost anything Torahdik. It’s not really the children living in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, and the other big cities, but a lot of those living on kibbutzim and yeshuvim are really brought up this way. There have been many articles written on this particular subject. It’s gotten better over the years, but it’s still pretty bad.

  25. Wow, one degel shel Medinot Israel surely causes a stir in the Black hat/Charedi community. In my opinion, just more hatred placed upon other Jews who feel “they” are the chosen ones. The Black hattitude is great when the State is dolling out free kesef for you to “learn” in a kollel, yet reconize the very same State, forget it. Ungrateful scum, go back to Bourough Park. Milk off the US Govt.

  26. Maybe if you all only knew what it means a BIZAYON. Who are we honoring and celebrating for? For Golda Meir who ate pig in public? Or how about Herzel, who said he would rather baptize his children and convert them to christianity, then have them be a religious jew. Or better, Jabotinsky who at the time of world war 2 said if he had the power to bring in 1000000 children to save from the hands of the nazis but knew they would remain religious, he would rather only half of them come in and be irreligious and for the zionist state; letting the rest be murdered!! His fellow jews! And YOU CALL THAT LOVE FOR A FELLOW JEW! WHATS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE? ARE YOU SO WARPED BY WHAT THE GOVERMENT SAYS THAT YOU DONT REALIZE? Of course we have to love our fellow Jews and help eachother. Yes, I love my fellow Jews! All of them!!!! But where do you think Herzel is now or Jabotinsky? Celebrating? Setting off fireworks? Theyre fireworks alright, but of a different type. Theyre repenting now, nothing else! Where are your heads? What are we celebrating????? So yes in answer to all you questioning number 1, 100% BIZAYON, and kol hakavod for saying that!

  27. Just for your info, I learned in Kol Torah 35+ years ago when R’ Shlomo Zalman was the R’Y. The Yeshiva had an Israeli flag waving on Yom Haatzmut & to the best of my recollection did NOT daven tachnun on that day.

  28. As has been said, this is a simple issue of being “Makir Tov.” I heard a shiur recently, that asked why honoring parents is on the side of the Luchos for “bein adam L’Makom,” (between a person and Hashem). The answer is that The main issue whay we honor our parents is to show Hakaras Hatov. AND IF WE CANNOT BE MAKIR TOV, THEN WE CANNOT TRULY SERVE HASHEM.

    Just as we must still honor a parent that may not be religious, because there IS SOMETHING to be makir tov (they brought us into the world, fed us etc..) So too all Jews and especially in Eretz Yisroel, We must be Makir the TOV!

  29. Straightshooter… I dunno about you but as far as I know, the dear medina turned back all too many of the boatloads of klal yisrael running away during the holocaust. Instead they were either torpedoed mid ocean by Yimach SHemam or killed on the soil of death camps.

    When the medina started- at first some reliable Rabbonim liked it but when they saw what the goal was they pulled OUT!!! They saw that it was all KOCHI VE’OITZEM YADI! It was all lets make a State for the Jews… (originally “Israel” wasnt even where they planned to do it!) but they clearly wanted AWAY from Torah and HaKadosh Baruch Hu! They took so many tahara neshamois and tricked them into coming to the holy land and losing thier Yiddesh keit to work on kibbutzim as total am haaratzim and Chareidi haters! and they desecrated all of kedushas haaretz witht the worst of desecrations!

    I know one amzing Yid that is completely shomer Toirah u mitzvos that was raised on a kibbutz and had no idea what a bar mitzvah was!! they stole everything from the kids! On their very own kadosh soil! He came to the understanding that there has to be a G-d and taka today has a torahdik home!

    So the shaila is when you hang a flag on yom ha’atzmaut what are you identifying with?

    Hallel on the day to me sounds like kefirah!!
    the flag… well if it means hakaras hatov for whatver chesed they taka may do then, yeah it is a kiddush Hshem and a beautiful thing but if it means that you are identifying with the reshaim gemurim that gave their lives and give their lives to rid Torah and Yiddeshkeit from this earth…. chalila to have any shaiches!!

    Well its up to our gedolim to guide us.

  30. the voos… I know your getting alot of attention but I have my own .02 (My.02- thanks for the chuckle in your name)- you see I first agreed with your automatic fire within to fight the flag and the medina…. however after a thought, I feel that all of us that are makir the rishus that has gone on in the medina do have to ask the gedoilim and go by what our gadol says. We also have to be makir that even Reshaim are Brios of HKBH and the same way we spill wine by the makos at the seder we have to realize they are Hashem’s chess pieces that he so carefully carved out. Gezairos are gesairos and nebuch when it has to come from our very own family within. We are all Klal yisrael!!! Nebuch nebuch that so many are lost and confused and misguided to be reshaim. They are mamish raised with “that mesorah” and dont identify with Toirah. Baruch Hashem for all of us that are lucky to see the emes whether from the home or from discovery.
    We have to daven for these Yidden that their eye open and they became Baalei Teshuva of the hghest degree!
    When others are davening “for” the medina we have to daven for the people of medina to turn their rishus to righteousness! To realize HKBH is boss and Toirah is everything. only then can the kedushas haaretz reach its true meaning!!

    BUT we must treat ALL yidden with habrius… (unless explicitly metzuveh by Neviim and gedolim to obliterate and wipe out like amalek)
    and therefore we must watch how we speak to others even if they are frei and tziyoni identifiers.
    Enough said!

    May Hakadosh Baruch Hu bring us back to the real Eretzh Hakedosha very soon!!!!

    Shkoyach

  31. Whether today was celebrated/comemorated as Yom HaAtsma’ut or not – it still is part of the Omer where we are reminded of the problems that befall us when we are not careful about our interpersonal relationships. Chevra be careful how you think about each other let alone how you speak/write

  32. Let the stupidity keep coming, as one sounds more stupid than the other,

    However it makes for good relaxation when i am stressed out.

  33. the real story why they put up the flag is simple. The P. rav was a tremendous oheiv yisroel who wanted all yidden to feel a bond with ponevez so that the yeshiva could reach out to all and make them learn i.e. the yarchai kallah which is a ponevez innovation and drew not only yeshivaleit but simple yidden who never opened a gemora

  34. Right now we are in the midst of the Omer, a time when we must spiritually elevate ourselves to receive the Torah. We must especially do so in our “bein Adam lechaveiro” We must realize that all the different types of Jews that are around today are all a nisayon especially for the chareidi community, to look at them with a good eye. When Ha-shem gave the Torah He gave it to them too. They are as Jewish as any body else. Perhaps Yom Haazmaut whether you agree with it or not, is a nisayon for us to look at other Jews with a good eye. Maybe instead of saying “bizayon” we should say “wow lucky are those Jews that get to live in Israel and I do not”. And maybe just maybe that is the reason why the flag is flying up on top of the yeshivah: to send this exact message. Let’s try to look for the good in every Jew instead of always looking to find something to criticize. And may this be a merit for all of us to have the zechus to be mekabel the Torah.

  35. Being that we are in the Omer atime for us to reflect on our bein Adam lechaveiro, it is best fo rus to realize that we need to look at each Jew with a good eye. Instead of saying bizayon we need to say that those Jews are so lucky that they get to live in Israel and I do not. Perhaps this is the exact message of the Yeshiva for flying the flag.

  36. The Problem is not the Concept of a Jewish State. The problem is with the Corrupt non Torah people who make its policys. A Jewish State run on Torah Values would silence all the critics here. Dont confuse bad anti torah policies with the concept of A Jewish State where we have refuge from the Goyim. No one here can deny that the benefits of a Jewish Government in E.Y. outweigh the bad points. No One should forget that Hashem has protected this State for 60 yrs!Hashem sent One Cyclone in Burma wiped out 100,000 people in One Day! a Tsunami in east asia sent by Hashem wiped out a quater of a million in one Day !Are you people blind ?. the Medinah exists for 60 yrs and you say its not the will of Hashem?And on 9/11 all the Torah institutions flew American Flags to show Solidarity with America.So you cant give Kovod to Jews who died for you in the Wars for a 2 minute Siren?Please seperate the anti torah Leftists who make the Policy from the CONCEPT of a Jewish Govermnent in E.Y.As They say in the tefilah for the State- RESHeIT TZMICHAT GEULATAYNU- It is a part of a Divine Plan.

  37. #42 Yitzy,
    You are mistaken.
    Even the most fray kid knows what Shabbos is, that is not to say that he knows the halochois, but to say they do not know what shma is, is an exageration.

    I do lots of business with Israelis who are not from Tel Aviv of Yerushalayiom, but from Kibutzim that you do not even know exist. They knoiw that Shabbos is the day of rest and shma is the holiest tefillah and no medina will ever (want to) change this.

  38. approx 30 years ago Reb Yaakov Kaminetsky was asked about putting up a flag on Y.A. by an american yeshiva in israel.and because of hakaros hatov(govt money) they should he said

  39. #49 it was the british who sent the ships back, not the Medina.Let me make this clear to start with, I do not agree with how the state is run. That does not change how we chose to behave. To those of you who think its ok to take $ from the govt, use its services,medical and others: You NEED to thank the govt. I have more respect for neturie karta(which is nonexistent) who at least uphold their beliefs without hypocrocy than for those of you who take & refuse to thank.

  40. My fellow yidden! By arguing about who is right and who is wrong will accomplish nothing except for the occaisional peice of loshon hora.
    If you have something positive to say that you think will HELP Klal Yisroel than say it.
    Saying nasty things about the leaders of the Jewish religion only creates Sinas chinam. So please for the sake of all those who want Ben David to come
    please don’s ruin our chances!

  41. 59- yochi- i’m sorry but i know others that didnt know until they were adults what shma and shabbos were!
    Iguess by now its changed but many of the states original kids were raised clueless!

  42. 63. As far as I know there were negotiations between the british and the medina and the medina chose to send back some. I dont have the facts in front of me at the moment and honestly I dont remember exactly but I do remember more than once hearing that they had some offers to be able to save them and they didnt.

  43. IT SEEMS LIKE MOST OF YOU DON’T KNOW THIS, BUT IT IS REQUIRED BY THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT THAT THE BUILDINGS OF THE HIGHEST ALTITUDE IN EVERY REGION, MUST HAVE AN ISRAELI FLAG(S) ON TOP OF THE BUILDING ON YOM HAATZMAUT. I WAS ON THE NEVE YERUSHALAYIM CAMPUS, WHICH IS THE HIGHEST POINT OF HAR NOF AND WE HAD FLAGS, TOO.
    IT IS NOT AN INDICATION OF BEING ZIONIST, RATHER, BEING A LAW-ABIDING INSTITUTION.
    LET’S TRY TO BE DAN L’KAF ZECHUS AND NOT DEDUCE OUR OWN ASSUMPTIONS.

  44. I think that everyone who has commented above should take upon themselves reach out to a Jew especially a jew that may not neccessarily look like you or belong to the same community! This is BEST way to solve all the problems: to show Gd that His children are united, the way He intends it to be.

  45. Yes, no doubt the Israeli gouvernment has violated tremendous amounts of Issurim. But let’s not forget about the bigger picture. If only we would improve ourselves the influence would be felt by other Yidden. This has to be our focus. Anything else is a distraction of our responsibilities as Yidden. I wish all of Klall Yisroel a gutten hailiger Shabbos.

  46. I don’t know if this is correct or not, but one of my teachers in seminary told us that the reason they fly the flag is that a law was instated whereby the tallest point in each neighborhood was required to have a flag flying on Yom Haatzmaut. Ponevezh was (or maybe still is) the highest point, hence the flag. If I’m not mistaken, the flag is flown in Neve Yerushalayim as well.

  47. Let me give u a lesson in Jewish history!
    As far as the “Medina” is concerned:
    There were very few “frum” Jewish governments in the history of Klall Yisroel!
    One just has to read Tanach and the Gemmarras and you will see that the Kings and leaders of Klall yisroel were a bunch of blood thirsty murderers!
    And yet Ezra Hasofer even after having witnessed intermarriage and chillul Shabbos and chillul Shmittah begged the Jewish people in Bavel and Persia to make …. yes …. Aliyeh!!
    I am sure that Ezrah was familiar with the “Sholosh Shvuos” and yet lamented that the Yiddin in Chutz Learetz were staying put!
    If you dont like the government in Eretz Yisrael than move there and vote to change the system!
    The Ribono Shel Olam gave us Eretz Yisroel after the churban of 6,000,000 murdered Jews. We had the opportunity to work hand in hand with the Zionist and maybe make a difference.
    We lost the opportunity with “Gedoile Yisroel” instilling hatred in yiddishe neshamos against their fellow yiddin.
    And now we are paying the price with our very own children!
    The Brisker Rav Z”L (an anti zionist) once told his Talmud “dont worry about the Zionists, worry about your own family.”
    Too bad!

  48. To Americancitizen:
    your comment is in appropriate
    Arabs didn’t stand at Har Sinai!
    We stood there and heard “Dina D’Malchusah Dina.”

  49. TO SATMER (????) 101
    CHAZON ISH PASKENED NO DINA DEMALCHUSA DINA IN THE MEDINA . THE MEDINA MY “LAW” ABORTS OVER 50,000 BABYS A YEAR , IT IMPRISSONS FRUM JEWS FOR DEMONSTRATING FOR TORAH , IT TEACHES EVOLUTION AND ATHIESM TO OVER 1,000,000 CHILDREN A YEAR . ITS MECHALLEL SHABBOS , IT SUPPORTS MISKAV ZACHOR . ETC… SHALL I CONTINUE ?
    ALL THIS IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE “LAW” . SHALL WE UPHOLD THESE LAWS ?

  50. OK

    1) Although maybe the State of Israel is not what any Torah believing Jew would have liked to invision, is the concept of Hakaras Hatov thrown out the window?

    2) The changes to the Nusachei HaTfilla are really the tip of the iceberg on this whole issue, and are just concepts that are thrown around by people who are too superficial to understand what the real issues are. That being said, just for the record, Rav Herschel Shachter writes that he never saw his rebbe (Harav Solveitchik T”ZL) say Hallel on Yom HaAtzmaut

    3) Is it not possible that there are two different viewpoints on the matter, and that both can technically be right (Shivim Panim LaTorah)?

    However, I do believe that a great deal of the blame lies with the Chareidi community’s lack of involvment, both in the initial establishement of the State of Israel, and with the current running of it’s (sorry) state of affairs. The “religious” parties are happy to just take funding from the government, yet not take any active involvement in the running of it. These parties (such as SHAS, for example), will verbaly protest the evacuation from Gaza, but will abstain from the actual voting in order to recieve more funding from the government. Just as a side note, what right do we, as religious Jews have, to protest the withdrawl from what is being called the “occupied lands,” if we are not willing to actively defend it (as opposed to the religious Zionists, for example, who not only are Torah true Jews, but also practice what they preach … love and commitement to Eretz Yisrael)?