It was an emotional day in Knesset as members of Kadima and Labor lashed out at chareidim, their way of life and educational system.
One example was Labor MK Daniel Ben-Simon, of Sephardi origin, who actually tried to broach the subject respectfully, yet his words carried a painful message, targeting all that is holy in the chareidi world. He stated that in the state of seven million, accept for the chareidim everyone learns from the same books, the same subject matter and the same material, each in his own language, and the decision of the chareidi community to separate itself from the tzibur is not a good one. “As a sovereign nation, we must determine what is good for the majority, the population” he feels.
Regarding Shas, singling out the Sephardi chareidi party, Ben-Simon explains that his native tongue is French, and yet, as a child, he studied math, English and other ‘core subjects’ and Shas’ pulling in the chareidi direction, following R’ Gafne and his colleagues was a major error. He explained that while Shas has a measure of power in Knesset, in day-to-day chareidi life and educational institutions in the chareidi world, “Gafne and his colleagues won” and they rule. Ben-Simon stressed the need “not to break away from the rest of the world” as Shas is doing, seeking to follow the lead of Ashkenazi chareidim.
Ben-Simon told Shas “you failed” in the battle against Ashkenazi chareidi yiddishkheit, calling on Shas to concentrate on bridging the gap between the secular and chareidi worlds, not to follow in the shadow of the Ashkenazi chareidi community.
Kadima’s Ronit Tirosh, a former director-General of the Ministry of Education stated the chareidim seek money and growing budgets, all the while their level of ignorance continues to grow. Her words were generalization based on racist preconceptions, feeling at home targeting an entire population.
MK (Yahadut HaTorah) R’ Moshe Gafne used the opportunity to respond to Kadima MK Ronit Tirosh, Ben-Simon and others, from the plenum podium.
Needless to say Gafne was not apologetic, explaining that while he lacks a university education and therefore may not be trained to conduct surveys, he realizes that when chareidim are in opposition, the secular parties are silent, but now, that they are in the coalition, they are under attack. He admitted he cannot point to a university study to support his words, but gave numerous examples to drive the point home.
Addressing himself to opposition leader MK (Kadima) Tzipi Livni, he pointed out that numerous attempts to drive a wedge between Likud and the chareidim failed. Attempts to topple the coalition in no-confidence motions failed. Attempts to tell the nation the government’s economic policies are poor were dispelled today as the OECD (Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development) accepted Israel as a member. As such explained Gafne, all that remains for the opposition leader, who seeks to justify her existence, is to target the chareidim, realizing this plays well in the media, which happily keeps the sentiments of Gabi Gazit and Ron Huldai in the front pages, feeding the fuel of dispute and the national anti-chareidi sentiment.
Gafne explained that he looks at the schools and their ‘core subjects’, the high schools studying chemistry and physics on the highest level, lamenting what the schools have become and vowing never to permit chareidi schools to follow in such a path.
Gafne questioned why when a young woman receives high level training in seminary she is not given a job, decrying the hypocrisy of the system in which 80% of chareidim suited for jobs are not selected because they are unwanted. He stated that it has been documented that even if she is equally or better trained, she will not receive the position, and then “you dare to yell the chareidim don’t work”.
Gafne rebuked his secular colleagues who he explains fly the banner of liberalism, yet are truly racist and have an agenda that is evident in the highest areas of Israeli society.
Gafne quoted recent studies that show that if a position becomes available, it must first go to an Arab, then Russian immigrant and then a member of the Ethiopian community, and only then to a chareidi.
Turning to Ben-Simon, Gafne explained that if a Sephardi who is qualified wishes to become a justice on the High Court of Justice, he hasn’t a prayer. A Sephardi seeking a senior post in the academic world does not stand a chance and if one is bold enough to try to enter the world of the state prosecutor, perhaps if he is extremely well connected, he will land a job. He questioned how Ben-Simon sits in judgment of the Ashkenazi chareidi community, wishing to remind him that about 50% of Sephardi roshei yeshiva attended Ashkenazi yeshivos, where they were welcomed with open arms, becoming the great Torah personalities they are today.
He asked Simon to explain the racism of the Mappai Party of the 1960s that closed all doors to Sephardim, the very system he defends. He proudly announced how he worked to assist in launching Shas in its inception, rejecting accusation of racism against Ashkenazi chareidim.
Ironically, in an interview with Kol Chai Radio, and earlier in his brief remarks in Knesset, MK (Ra’am – Ta’al) Dr. Ahmed Tibi agreed with R’ Gafne, adding he simply cannot accept any collective attack, calling it “racist”. In Knesset, he turned to Gafne from the podium and said “Welcome to the club”, explaining as an Arab, he knows how to be the recipient of racial slurs.
Tibi said once one singles out an entire segment of society, it is stereotyping and racist, and therefore unacceptable. He told Kol Chai that the only thing worse than being chareidi today is possibly becoming a chareidi Arab.
“There is no connection between one’s rights and what one is entitled to and military service”, added Tibi, rejecting the argument as it is commonly used against the chareidi community.
(Yechiel Spira – YWN Israel)
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28 Responses
You know that the Charedim are growing with a big political clout when the seculars begin to spout anti-Charadim hate. According to Ynet, 21% of Jerusalem identifies as secular, 30% is charadi, meaning that the other 30% is just plain religious.
This frightens them and to muster people to vote for them, they must use fright and hate tactics.
Sorry, but we continue to grow and face it, we will be the majority and we will take over.
#1, you will take over, and the day that happens, I’m out of here (Israel, that is).
I don’t intend to live in a state consisting primarily of uneducated boors who don’t know the difference between physics and chemistry, who don’t speak any languages other than Hebrew and Yiddish, and whose cultural knowledge extends to the biography of the Vilna Gaon. A state where everyone lives off the public’s coffers but nobody is willing to fill them. A state where everyone considers it their own personal right to have 3 months of vacation per year.
No thanks, the day Israeli chareidim run this country, is the day I get on a plane to Europe with a one-way ticket. (Most likely I’ll do that even before we get to that point, though.)
Well, lazerc, I hope that when you take over, you will also take over the army, the border patrol ,the hospitals and other places of communal good. because if you think that you can rule without also taking full part in all apsects fo the land, you will be sorely disappointed.
“…chareidim seek money and growing budgets, all the while their level of ignorance continues to grow…” No chidush – old news.
I wonder how chareidim would behave as a body politic if they had their own state. Who would be the doctors & nurses, architects, engineers, research scientists? Who would be the Generals, naval commandos, pilots and ordinary Privates?
The status-quo in Eretz Yisroel has the chareidim living a parasitic existance off the rest of society; for their health and security they have to depend on everyone else. This just can’t be the Abishter’s plan.
It is the secular sector which has separated itself.Am Yisroel was historically throughout all the generations Hareidi and our Mesorah was always the Mesorah of the Hareidim.The various secular movements,beginning with the Haskalah,and continuing with the Bundists,Communists and in our times the Zionists (perhaps more accurately Post-Zionists)are ones who broke away and separated themselves.As for Ben-Simon’s call “not to break away from the rest of the world” ,well, that’s just the good old-fashioned slogan of the Eirev Rav Maskilim to emulate the Goyim.The whole raison-d’etre of Am Yisroel is to be different from the nations,”am zoo kevodod yishkon”,the unique Chosen People.
lazerc, they say that 75% of us don’t know math, which means almost half of us can’t add. Let’s see 21% are secular plus 30% are Chareidi so what percent are just plain religious? I think more than the number you gave.
#6 – hilarious. I actually failed to notice that!
The painful message is that there is no option for peaceful coexistence between Torah and Hiloni culture in Erttz Yisrael. It is a zero sum game. Only one can survive. The other must cease to exist. A zionist state founded for the purpose of establishing a post-Torah brand of Judaism can never tolerate our continued existence.
America is somewhat different since the hilonim have the option, which they are exercising, of assimilating into the non-Jewish population. In addition, the non-Jewish goyim in America have a long tradition of religious toleration (they see frum Jews at no worse than quaint, and certainly not as an existential threat).
The issue of education is secondary. The primary issue is the perception that the Charadi community is reliant on the rest of the society to support them. This idea of the vast majority of men learning and their wives working is a new concept in Jewish history. As for the difference in education, there is no reason that the Charadi cannot learn chemistry and other sciences. It will not bring them down. Nor, will it derail them; making their time Bittel Torah. Much to the contrary; I remember learning Sukkot and how much math was a plus. I remember learning other parts of Gemurah and the value that math and science played in understanding the sugya. Any one that says that you don’t need math and science is a fool. If R’ Gafne does not agree with the secular high schools, that does not mean that you should not teach these subjects. It just means that we need to work on the children in the school to have proper midot.
and thet wonder why the world is anti semittic
#2:good riddance
Daniel; I know all of us charedi are stupid and ignorant
not like you intellectuals; but he works for Zaka, who runs most of the Gemachs, who works for Hatzolah throughout the Jewish world that even goyim call Hatzolah before the local authorities. I have gone to Charedi doctors, dentist, lawyers, opthomaligist,car mechanics, restuarants, caterers, contractors, accountants,and store owners who don’t have the prejudice that you have. Shame on you as a fellow Jew to act this way. You might need a little knowledge of Yiddishkeit and a lot knowledge of TSHUVAH. I really really feel sorry for all the hatred that is stored up in you; for certain it is not doing anything for you and show how uneducated you really are
Fact of the matter is that the Chareidi world in Israel is headed for a major dead-end. Statistics don’t lie. The Chareidi world is chronically underemployed and impoverished. Both those factors are linked worldwide with low post secondary grade education. Yet the Chareidi world (which I am part of) insists on sticking it’s collective head in the sand and ignores the reality that exists out there.
So what is the solution?
I have always felt that the correct approach for our generation is the approach of R’Hirsch, of Torah Im Derech Eretz, an approach that gave the Chareidi Jew, one החרד לדבר השם the tools to live in the “outside” world. The Yeshiva world uon which the Israeli Chareidi world is modelled eschews this, it feels that one must singularly pursue Limud hatorah to the exclusion of every other endeavor, but let’s not forget הרבה עשו כרשב”י ולא עלתה בידם
If we would be honest with ourselves we would realize that we have painted ourselves into a very tight corner, a corner that does not tolerate or accept a person who diverges from the “accepted norm” and gets a meaningful career or for that matter join the IDF and get a leg up in life. The price we pay is littered all over the streets of Jerusalem, Bet Shemesh and Modiin. I am wont to say that if you take a young teenager who is not interested in learning and you tell him he must stay in Yeshiva until he gets married, you’ve just sentenced him to six years in prison. Are you surprised that they rebel?
Forget the rants and raves of the secular or the demagoguery of Gafni, what is going to happen with us? do you really think that historically a significant sector of the Jewish population did nothing else other than learn Torah? nonsense! the vast majority of the המון עם worked. So what’s different today?
It isn’t, and the quicker we get with the picture the better off we will be.
Daniel Breslauer – webster has a point. Throughout history it has been the Hellenist Jews that gave credence to Secular education, not Torah Judaism. There are several sources throughout Shas and other scholarly works that clearly steer Klal Yisroel aware from learning secular subjects. If you are in opposition to the sages’ statements regarding secular education then why do you waist your time learning their words (I.E. studying Gemorah and the like)? [I’m assuming you do learn Torah.]
Furthermore, think about this: When you die what will they engrave on your tombstone? I HIGHLY DOUBT that it’ll state, “Here lies Daniel Breslauer – a man who was a GREAT linguist! A man who was fluent in ALL aspects of Chemistry! May he rest in peace!”
I would hope it would say something more like this, “Here lies Daniel Breslauer. A holy and scholarly man who was known for his great acts of Chesed which did not discriminate between man and his fellow man, who cared for the poor and sought to bring shalom between his fellow Jews. Beloved to his community and to his family. May his righteousness be an ever lasting light upon Klal Yisroel.”
I certainly hope it doesn’t say the following, “Here lies Daniel Breslauer, a man that came from the land of Israel to live and die in France to escape persecution from “the Men in Black”! He will be sorely missed by his family.”
Daniel – I have a very powerful mussar project for you to attempt. Take a day off and go stroll through a Beit HaKefurot and read as many grave stones as you can. Spend a couple of hours there doing just that.
You want to know what REALLY counts in life?! READ THEM!!! WHAT’S WRITTEN ON THEM, THAT’S WHAT REALLY COUNTS IN LIFE!!!!!!
Religious toleration in the US..
1. men were fired for keeping shabbos at the turn of the 20 century.
2. Jews were turned back to Auschwitz.
3. Shalom Rubashkin and the treatment he is getting in prison.. his lawyer stated that it is b/c he is a JEW that he is getting such treatment!!!!!
4. Jews in the US who don’t know what shabbos is, marry goyim,
Etc etc etc etc
It’s bad news we need an Arab to stick up for us.
#2 Everything you just said applies to those wonderful Europeans you want so much to identify and live with.
Why do you think they had riots all over Europe and now in Greece where they are murderring people over their “freebees” that the Greecian Constitution was supposed to guarantee?
3 months vacation?
How about lifetime pension for the children of those who worked for the government (which seems to be a very large % of the total population in Greece).
Wow talk about ignorant parasites!!!!
And this is what you think is so much better then religious Jews?
You are supporting exactly what you claim to be against but obviously you think for non Jews or secular Jews it’s just wonderful and only religious Jews don’t deserve it.
For the record I support almost pure capitalism where everyone supports themselves and are free to run business and hire and fire without any government controls (or at least extremly few) over them.
This is what Torah supports and the only system that works in the long run.
Also Europe will be completly taken over by the Islamics within 50 years (I think it will be much sooner) so have fun living under Sharia law.
Finally if Israel were run according to Torah and halacha it would be blessed and prosper no matter what other problems and enemies they faced.
This would be especially true if there were true Ahavahs Yiosroal among all Jews and at least teh religious Jews should work on having it, and that would bring the greatest blessings, and possibly cause Moshiach to finally come.
Jerry – Hi Jerry, just a little point at hand. The word is “anyone”, not “any one”. “Anyone” is synonymous with “Anybody”. “Any one” means “whatever one of a group”. “Anyone” is all inclusive. “Any one” is exclusive to an individual.
In your sentence, “(Any one) that says that you don’t need math and science is a fool.”, you should have stated “(Anyone) that says…”. [BTW – “math” and “science” should have been capitalized in your sentence being that they are proper nouns (they are the names of those subjects).]
Your sentence should have read, “Anyone that says that you don’t need Math and Science is a fool.” Perhaps you should have added “English” as well. 🙂
Sorry that an “Ignorant Chareidi” had to clarify this for you! 😉
I am delighted when I hear that the Chareidim will take over Israel. I actually jumped off my chair and danced on all 3 floors of my house. I am actually looking to buy some property in Jerusalem and other locations and start living there a few months out of the year. The biggest pain I have when I visit Israel is seeing cars drive on Shabbos. I decided on my next visit to rent a place on a block thats open for traffic on shabbos and stand at a street corner near a red light and give out kugel to each driver and their families. I cant wait to begin this new program as it would give parents a guilt trip as there kids ask about the shabbos potatoe kugel. You ask who will be in the army if Israel becomes a Chareidi nation? Simple you hire chinese to patrol the borders and put chareidi generals in charge. Its not a big deal. Today technology does the main bombing and you can even have kollel wives pushing computer buttons dropping drones at enemy attackers. Besides there would not be war as the arabs would respect chareidim because we keep Israel holy unlike the secular zionists. There would be peace as our Torah promises.
Daniel Breslauer, do you keep Shabbos? And if yes,why?
“Gafne explained that he looks at the schools and their ‘core subjects’, the high schools studying chemistry and physics on the highest level, lamenting what the schools have become and vowing never to permit chareidi schools to follow in such a path.”
This is very sad. Learning chemistry and physics on the highest level can open ones eyes to HaShem. The social hall in the (Orthodox) synagogue I attend every Shabat morning is named for a member who was a physicist who won a Nobel Prize.
“Gafne questioned why when a young woman receives high level training in seminary she is not given a job, decrying the hypocrisy of the system in which 80% of chareidim suited for jobs are not selected because they are unwanted. He stated that it has been documented that even if she is equally or better trained, she will not receive the position, and then “you dare to yell the chareidim don’t work”.”
Well, if you refuse to teach chemistry and physics, don’t complain when your graduates don’t get offered jobs that require science knowledge — which is more and more jobs as time goes on.
“A Sephardi seeking a senior post in the academic world does not stand a chance”
An American Ashkenazic immigrant seeking a post in the academic world does not stand a chance — I know because I investigated the possibility of making aliyah and found that there was no way that I would be considered for a job in my field in Israel.
“there is no reason that the Charadi cannot learn chemistry and other sciences. ”
Absolutely true! I personally know two Bais Yaakov grads who completed medical school within the past few years.
“Throughout history it has been the Hellenist Jews that gave credence to Secular education, not Torah Judaism. ”
This is not true. Many Torah Jews attended university starting in the middle ages, including Rambam and Sforno. In more recent times they have included Rav Hirsch, Rav Hildesheimer, Rav Herzog, and Rav Soloveitchik.
“Also Europe will be completly taken over by the Islamics within 50 years”
It doesn’t take a lot of mathematical ability to figure out that this statement is mathematically impossible given current birth and immigration rates.
The Torah giants of the past were not hostile to secular knowledge. The Lubavicher Rebbe earned an electrical engineering degree. Rov Soloveitchik earned a doctorate in German philosophy. (The Rov’s wife, son, daughters, and sons-in-law also all earned doctorates.) Rav Herzog earned a doctorate in chemistry and in his dissertation found the source for the techelit dye! (Consult your local Orthodox rabbi before relying on that discovery as it does not come from the usual halachic process.) Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach didn’t have much formal secular education for delved into the physics of electricity so that he could write the definitive sefer on the matter. Rabbi Moshe Feinstein and Rabbi Eliezer Waldenberg also didn’t have much formal secular education but they learned enough medical science to be able to talk to the leading medical experts in the world in order to pasken correctly.
Not everyone has to get a doctorate, but we can’t live as a halachic society with this level of hostility to modern science. Who will be the next Rav Moshe or Tzitz Eliezer?
One last comment: I’ve discovered dozens of European rabbis who pursued secular university education from the 15th to the 18th century. Every single one seems to have had extensive Torah education prior to embarking on his university study. And that continued as the same is true for, among the many more recent examples, Rav Hirsch, Rav Herzog, and Rov Soloveitchik. I think that there might be a lesson here: Torah is primary, but quality advanced secular education is of great benefit both for those for whom it is appropriate and for the community who will benefit from those receiving that education.
charliehall – it is apparent that you have never studied the works of many of these Gedolim in regards to their view on secular education. I advise that you should first look up and study what they have written in regards to secular education before trying to bring them as a support to your view; especially when many of those you quoted actually are in opposition to your view.
See Teshuvot Igrot Moshe Yoreh Deah 4:36 for example.
To 21!!! I live here and if you are interested, I want to explain a few things to you.
What Gafne meant was that a girl who finishes seminary (meaning high school + at least 2 yrs post high school – and yes they learn some chemistry and biology…) and they have a certificate from the state, let say for bookkeeping or tax consultant, or CPA, which is the exact on that a secular person has, and they both apply for the same job, the Charedi one i not accepted because she is Charedi.
I can also tell you all that men who decide to leave the Kollel and get trained are capable of filling on enough of the “wonderful” secular knowledge they need in about a year, this is due to the fact that they have been taught to think very analytically and they are used to sitting and working for hrs at a time, and many hrs a day (as opposed to the “wonderful” secular education system).
I am also sure that as more and more Charedim go in to the working place (a thing that has been happening naturally and NOT due to all the Charedi bashing, perhaps in spite of it) and as the Charedim go higher and higher and will receive high positions in companies, etc I bet you sill see the same people complaining that the Charedim are taking over (see what went on in the municipal elections in Yerushalaim)
And you know what, numbers speal more than anything and the Charedim/Mizrahi will keep on having more and more children (and the secular less and less) and then everything will change, IY”H for the good!
“Also Europe will be completly taken over by the Islamics within 50 years”
;;;;;;;;;”It doesn’t take a lot of mathematical ability to figure out that this statement is mathematically impossible given current birth and immigration rates.”;;;;;;;
Really? How about showing us your “mathematical ability” and proving it?
Then watch the youtube video;
MUST WATCH VIDEO- THE FUTURE OF EUROPE AND THE REST OF THE WORLD
And prove it’s lying, since according to your statement above, you obviously think it is.
People- let’s not forget a critical point here, that the chareidi population IS NOT WANTED IN THE SECULAR WORK FORCE. Gafne pointed to surveys that have shown that a prospective employer will give work to an Etiopian, FSU, arab, etc. before hiring a chareidi, even if that chareidi has the credentials including schooling, higher education, experience, etc.
The issue here is not really secular education but secular miseducation.
The current chiloni school curriculum propagandizes for ideas and ideals that a are foreign to a decent human life, let alone an Orthodox life.
There is a constant put down of Israel and advocacy for Communist and socialist causes. The chiloni products of the school system are violent and anti Israel Leftists.
Is this what we should strive for?
The myth of education as a prelude to job availability and success has largely been debunked in America. See how many highly trained computer specialists are out of work.
The chassidish yungeleit that started their own businesses are the ones that are flourishing.
Chareidim can’t get jobs in Israel because of the threat of having to go to the anti Religious hedonistic army.
Daniel’s fairy tale of education leading to success vanished in the aftermath of the revolutionary days of the 60’s.