Two Nachshon Brigade soldiers who hung a banner in their base on Monday against removing Jews from their homes were sentenced to 30 days in a military stockade. They are also being demoted from first sergeant to corporal, and they are being removed from any responsible combat position.
The military has made its position clear, not exhibiting any compassion for their acts of insubordination, violating the prohibition against expressing political views, views that contradict the mainstream leftist consensus, perhaps increasingly abrasive following the failed 2005 Disengagement, which served the interests of Hamas while avulsing thousands of Jews from their homes. (Yechiel Spira – YWN Israel)
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18 Responses
Let’s turn opinion back to reporting. Did t hey violate military regulations or not. The article goes out of its way not to say that they violated regs, but read a little more carefully: not exhibiting any compassion for their acts of insubordination
Sounds like they violated bona fide rule, whether you consider that rule fair or not.
One should ask what would happen to an American soldier (or group of soldiers) who publicly demonstrated against the government while in uniform? Of course, in most middle eastern countries they would be promptly shot, but Israel aspires to be a Euro-American “western” country.
Just goes to show. The current IDF is not a Jewish army, no mater wgo says different!
It is an army of leftist pigs and arab beasts – and nobody can believe anything different.
These soldiers are the true heroes of Israel. They are not afraid to remind the country that the “D” in IDF stands for DEFENCE forces, NOT expulsion forces! May HaSh-m bless them, and may their numbers increase!
“avulsing”??? Wow! Someone has been using his Thesaurus!!!
Forty years ago this past July I knew a sailor on an oiler who, in response to repeated admonishing to get his haircut, had himself shaved bald in protest. As punishment for his deed he was restricted to the ship for several weeks, unable to go on shore leave. Boy, was he ever peeved – but most of his shipmates understood that he was being reigned in as a wise guy, and told him so. I was the wise guy sailor.
Strict, formal discipline in military and para-military forces I think makes a lot of sense. When it will matter most, lower ranks will need to do what they are told pretty much without question; the disciplinary standards ought to be clear and applied both uniformly and quickly.
In the case of the Nachshon Brigade soldiers, if they were not sanctioned, what would the Army do if peacenik soldiers then unfurled competing banners? I think they had to nip it in the bud.
It’s an army, not a political party. YonasonW was on target and that is why religious soldiers obeyed the Gush Katif expulsion orders. When soldiers refuse legal, if lousy, orders on political grounds you’re on your way to anarchy. The army had to act and quickly, too.
So each soldier should obey only the commands in accordance with his political views? So if a soldier does not agree with the presence of an illegal outpost, he should be allowed to refuse to stand guard duty there if ordered to by his superiors? How about soldiers who disagree with any settlement activity beyond the green line? This too was a political decision.
These soldiers should receive full punishment, and if they acted in accord with teachings from a hesder yeshiva, the military should break off contact with that yeshiva unless the Rosh Yeshiva issues a condemnation. No army in the world can function when the soldiers choose which orders to obey according to their political viewpoints.
And as far as the disgusting comment #3 by shalomk, it is a shame that you consider our soldiers and officers “leftist pigs”. These are people who put their lives at risk for the citizens of Israel, whether or not they agree with your particular political orientation. Your gratitude is underwhelming.
To those of you who are siding AGAINST these soldiers… At the post-WW2 Nuremberg trials, did you accept the claim of nazi guards in the concentration camps who said “we were just following orders!”???
#7 YonasonW – The “peacenik” soldiers DON’T NEED to have banners. As it stands now the government is ALREADY having the army implement the “peacenik” agenda.
I didn’t hear AinOhdMilvado compalin when the government used the IDF to implement other policies, such as establishing settlements, nor using the IDF to guard 2-family “outposts”.
And comparing the IDF’s orders to those of Nazi Germany is disgusting. Hamas would be proud of you.
My comment is strictly to #3, ( not to the merits of this story).
You are way out of line. I am making a mechoah.
To “Starwolf” #12 – you are WAY out of line…
1) If its for the sake of the security and DEFENSE of the country, then it IS proper for the IDF to establish “settlements” – and, in fact, border area, defense oriented “settlements” are the only ones the IDF ever did establish.
2) Every town in Israel began as what YOU would call a “settlement” and every “settlement” began as an “outpost”. Cities of tens of thousands of residents don’t spring up over night. If an “outpost” is in an area where our enemies might put its inhabitants in danger, then the IDF definitely SHOULD be there to protect them whether there is ONE family or ONE thousand families.
3) I did NOT compare the IDF’s orders to those of nazi germany. It is YOU that is doing that. The soldiers of nazi germany said they HAD to follow orders, YOU are the one saying OUR soldiers should behave the same way, i.e. carry out orders regardless of whether the orders are legal, or moral, or against Torah teachings.
(AinOhdMilvado:) “At the post-WW2 Nuremberg trials, did you accept the claim of nazi guards in the concentration camps who said “we were just following orders!”???”
(starwolf:)“comparing the IDF’s orders to those of Nazi Germany is disgusting.”
Actually the IDF are just following their German predecessors, who they were allied with.
Joseph #15 – what YOU are saying IS disgusting! Although we have MANY horrible government “leaders” in Eretz Yisrael, and many “big-shots” in the IDF who wouldn’t recognize Torah ethics or laws if they tripped over them, to compare the IDF to the germans is terrible sheker and lashon harah of the worst kind. I suggest you stay out of Eretz Yisrael Joseph as you wouldn’t want to be protected by an IDF as you describe it!
Judging by post #16, I misjudged AinOhdMilvado, and I apologize. However, he can see that there are indeed a number of forumites that do regularly make such comparisons. Again, I apologize for thinking that AinOhdMilvado was one of them.
Regarding post #12- like it or not, the political echelon decides what is proper for the IDF to do. Very few of the settlements were established for the defense of the country. Do you really think that Kiryat Arba, Ofra, Shilo, Bet El have anything to do with defense? However, you are correct in that if the government decides to establish the settlements, the IDF must protect them–whatever the political beliefs of the soldiers.
But nevertheless, it is up to the political echelon to determine what the IDF will do. Keep in mind that a great many governments have used the IDF to dismantle settlements forcibly, first and foremost that of Menachem Begin. Good luck in getting a government that will not do so. Who will you vote for? Ichud Leumi stands a poor chance of producing a prime minister from within its ranks.
As far as following orders–the courts have already determined that it is legal for the government to use the IDF in this way, and the government is currently using the IDF to shut down settlements that were not authorized, and under Israeli law are illegal. If you don’t like the courts, well, then tough. That’s what there is.
Moral? I don’t see the dismantling of these outposts as immoral, nor did I see the disengagement from Gaza as immoral. A great many Israelis viewed settlements in Gaza as insane to begin with, and let it be known from the git-go that they did not regard a continued Israeli civilian presence in the Strip as a reasonable or permanent objective. Nevertheless, when time came for them to serve there to protect those settlements–they went. (Those who refused orders to do so were dealt with in a manner similar to that which we see today.)
It is no more immoral to use the army to remove settlements than it is to use the army to establish and secure them. When one group of people refuses to carry out legal orders with which they disagree, there is no reason to suppose that the other side will not do the same, and then the entire fabric of the IDF disintegrates.
Joseph (#15) What motivates you to say such hurtful nonsense? Were you raised among survivors? Do you have any idea of the horror of your comparison? Shame on you.
Yes Yonason, both sides of my family survived the churban in Europe, as did Hagoes HaRav Michael Dov Ber Weismandel and the Satmar Rebbe — who’s stance on zionism I echo.