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I cant see great numbers of people, as desperate and as hopeful as they are, putting out big money before any results.
No. When the Roshei Yeshiva implement their “boys married at 19” idea, that will be a gamechanger. This is nothing, and possibly less than that.
This letter definitely puts things in to perspective. I am not anti this project, and I believe people need to stop being so critical. Nasi is only trying to HELP. If you dont agree with them, you dont have to join their project- simple as that.
However, I do agree with gavra. The real and effective change will be when boys join the shidduch island at 19.
Like the artical stated: “we caused the tragedy”.
Reading article hasn’t changed my mind. I think if shadchanim, changed THEIR game plan and THEY worked on the plight of the older girls, instead of concentrating on the younger girls, we can see more older girls getting married, and the poor older girls will have a chance. And about getting boys, to marry at 19, as the mother of a 19 year old boy, he is not at a level to support a wife and start a family, yet.
The response is sillier than the idea itself.
1] Even the greatest Ponzi schemers had the guts to put their names and reputations on the line. With NASI, only e-mails speak! Then they are delusional to compare themselves to Eliyahu Hanavi?
2] The original statistics were later admitted were a fabrication to draw attention to their cause. Do you have more faith in the fictitious numbers posted here?
3] If the girls can afford to put such cash upfront, it almost guarantees that the boys will start their bidding sessions for support with higher numbers in mind. Another surefire way to ensure that the divorce rate continues to rise.
4] No mention was made which law firm, auditors, etc. will secure the escrow accounts to ensure that when a person wants to pull out of this scam, the money will be there. Madoff also said, “Trust Me”.
GIRLS: Have self respect and DON’T allow anonymous e-mails and their supposed rabbinic enablers place a bounty on your heads. DON’T go for this scam.
no
gavra_at_work & JAM
When the Roshei Yeshiva implement their “boys married at 19” idea, that will be a gamechanger.
Sure, go right ahead and convince them to get married at 19, then when the divorce rate sky-rockets you’ll be saying “we caused the tragedy”.
Why is this only a recent phenomenon? Girls historically always entered the shidduch market at a younger age than boys. I can’t explain why but I have a feeling that the age gap isn’t the real problem.
I think it’s the change in attitudes. People were a lot simpler and less demanding of perfection. Boy and girl dated, liked each other and got engaged. Nowadays it’s a ridiculously arduous process with demands and expectations that previous generations would be bemused, puzzled and not to say disgusted if they could see it.
It is more logical to keep all girls in the freezer until they are 22 than to have boys married at 19. Boys marrying at 19 may work for the chassidim, but it does not work for the yeshiva world. The boys are too immature.
The analogy to Eliyahu Hanavi is flawed on several levels. Not the least of which is, sending money only assures you a spot on a list, nothing more, nothing less, it does not even assure a phone call from a shadchan, much less a date. However, if someone has the money to send and wishes to try, go for it. It is surely better than doing nothing.
I agree with the lets have the boys and girls meet. I think it should be like a gateways shabbaton. Spend a shabbos together with many like families, make connections. let the shadchanim on hand faciitate a meeting or two, and then follow up afterwards. there can even be a “brochure” with a bio of each family, background basic info etc. Something in this entire system is broken.. and its not a simple fix. I also agree with the fact that the boys are staying in Israel too long, and the girls are going out right off the plane from sem. thats the disconnect. and if you really want a good bochur, than you should prob be looking in israel, but your daughter is back now, so now what… ????
i personally agree. im 19 and i know that im not nearly mature enough to marry…im only now getting some idea of the world and hpw it works…how am i expected to build a family if i have no clue what im even doing with myself. also about marrying different ages…WHY?!?!?! why would you ever? there is a SERIOUS difference between a 19 year old person and a 22 year old person in terms of maturity, views, hashkafah…maybe here and there youll have yechidim who can pull it off…but why make it the norm?
I’m afraid that this will have an opposite affect than what they want. Parents will be anxious to get their daughters married before they turn 22 and have to pay such a high Shadchan fee.
The amounts make no sense. These people are putting a huge financial strain on EVERYONE. Since when is a 22 year old girl “OLD”? How many shadchanim get close to 5K for a 22 year old? 22 is the ideal age, even to “bridge the age gap”. Suddenly now, EVERYONE will be expected to pay out such HUGE amounts.
A plan by an anonymous organazation “NASI”, with a response in FIRST person (“I” not “we”), also unsigned, no Rosh Yeshiva or Rav signed, how can they expect anyone to sign up?? With whom are you putting your $$$? If they are doing it “lishaym shamayim”, get some girl fresh from seminary work on the list for $25 per hour, and charge $25 for your name on the list.
Also, what’s the extra $500 for? Just to enter your name into an excel file and email to any shadchan. That’s $500. Close to what any (non-professional) shadchan would get for a complete job, just to be added to a list. And if 1000 girls sign up (not a huge job), the NASI guy pockets a half a million dollars? $500,000.00! For an excel file!! It doesn’t sound legit.
Dr. Pepper- I disagree with you. Look around at people/communities that marry young. They have very high statistics of happy marriages. (and those that are divorced- i dont believe it had anything to do with thier age. They were not suited for eachother from day one. Put together the same two poeple three years later and they still wouldn’t be compatible).
Papper- “The boys are too immature”
Maturity comes with responsibility, not with age.
Look around, there are plenty of 30 and 40 year olds that are on the maturity level of a five year old.
Perhaps YWN would like to offer its website to “older singles” by setting up a shidduch database somewhere onsite. YWN can act as a sort of clearinghouse where people can post information about themselves, or people they know, and its users can be the shadchanim. To ensure anonymity, only basic information with no names, need be posted and designated folks can be points of contact and facilitators for those who have suggestions and would like to take it to the next level. Perhaps YWN readers can get in on the act by donating 2 or 3 dollars a month (I have no idea how many but am willing to bet a thousand people will gladly donate this amount) which can be used to compensate these deignated folks for their time and effort in facilitating this exchange of information. Perhaps some professional shadchanim reading this might consider joining as facilitators. We all believe that 40 days before “yetziras havlad” a bas kol called out bas ploni liploni, hashem already made the shidduch, he needs us to act as his shluchim in getting them together. Perhaps ploni and bas ploni are 6000 miles apart and need people who are connected through a medium such as the internet to help them get together?
Just a thought.
Jam-
Thanks for disagreeing in a respectful way. Please keep in mind that my opinions are … opinions. If you can convince me that I’m wrong, I’ll side with you. Unfortunately your post has not convinced me for a number of reasons:
1. We’re not talking about other people/ communities, we’re referring to ourselves and our own communities. For better or for worse, the yeshiva structure was designed so that talmidim have minimal responsibilities so they can devote their full energy towards their learning. Marriage is an enormous responsibility.
2. I don’t know of any other communities that have a higher rate of successful marriages than ours. I may be wrong but I’m not trying to open a can of worms here.
3. Even if on the outside it looks like a couple is happily married- you never know what goes on behind closed doors.
4. Check out the Shalom Bayis area of imamother.com. You’ll see many, many cases where people who were too young to get married got married. (Please be aware that their moderators are not as good as ours, if you know what I mean:))
In any event- consider the supply and demand graphs from economics. Vendors try to come up with the perfect price for a product- too high and not enough people will buy it and the vendor will be left with a surplus, too low and the vendor won’t have enough to meet the demand of society.
If one takes a supply and demand graph that is in perfect equilibrium and raises the price- I won’t be able to say who won’t buy the product anymore but I will be able to say around how many people will stop buying it.
So too, we don’t want people getting married too young while they are not mature enough, or too old when they are set in their ways. Assuming that the graph- age at marriage and divorce rate- is in perfect equilibrium now (which I’m not saying it is), if we shift the age graph to the left by three years you will see a steep spike in the divorce rate. And yes- we will be blaming ourselves for the divorce crisis that will be created.
Without giving support to NASI’s program, I must make a point on their behalf. People are complaining about the large amount of money being asked for. All I can say is that I would hope that any single girl in their thirties has 13,000 in the bank. They have been working (I hope) for 10-15 years and living with relatively few financial responsibilities.
What’s with all the outrage against Nasi?
The Nasi statement was barely up and already there were 29 opinions disparaging Nasi-and not 1 critic has a viable alternative
We have a big painful problem on our hands, and we can go about it in 1 of 2 ways:
1) find a solution- albeit a painful one
2) stand around and complain and ridicule anyone who has a plan that is not absolutely flawless, at the expense of making progress and acting responsibly to save lives and generations.
What’s the matter with you all?
Maybe this is why the rabbonim refuse to sign. They don’t need all the groiseh eitzeh gebbers heckling them.
Did all the complainers with all their criticism ever actually do anything, or do you all sip your hot cocoa and say oh we have a problem, and then when some one finally has the resolve to actually do something, you all go tsk tsk until you move on to the next item on your agenda? What did you ever do to alleviate the shidduch crises?
If Nasi would fold up and its founders would decide they have no interest in trying to help a bunch of ingrates, would you all be happier?
A sentiment I heard expressed by older singles (male and female, the youngest ~27) as well as parents of older singles since the proposal was publicised last week, is that a large part of the problem are the shadchanim themselves. “Flattering” terms such as heartless, ruthless and brusque were used. This new program and its huge financial carrot will not stop such behavior, and will perhaps exacerbate it.
On the flip side, we keep hearing how shadchanim feel abused, overworked, under appreciated and underpaid.
With such a disconnect between shadchanim and those they are supposed to be working with, is it any wonder we have problems?
Ender: That’s not a fair thing to say. Many of these girls DO shoulder full financial responsibility. And what they do have saved up should be for their wedding/home/old age. Why should they have to spend their life savings in shadchanus?
So let me ask you this, Nasi…
Why are you insisting on collecting the thousands before any list is even compiled, even after hearing the community outrage? Why can’t you just request $500 from every single which should more than cover start-up costs, and request the rest upon completing a shidduch… You don’t trust us Nasi? You don’t trust that the parents of an older single girl will pay due shadchanus when their beloved kid meets her bashert? Oh, ok but we should trust you, without a name behind your cause, without mention of the “prominent Rabbanim” you claim are behind you, without mention of where the money will be kept and who will oversee its financial handling. Oh. Ok.
So you chastise us Nasi. You are quite condescending when you tell us our money would not be that much better off accruing .025% interest in a savings account. So why exactly do you need this money? To invest? So you can earn the interest your telling us we don’t need? Quite interesting that you will not start the program without 50 respondents. Does the hedge fund require a minimum amount of capital?
Nasi, you have defenders. You have those who come out and say “well at least they are trying to help our yiddishe kinderlach.” Yes Nasi, trying to help. Through degrading ads, through an insane request for money that is not necessary to compile a list, through half-baked defense letters with embarrassing comparisons of a ponzi scheme to Eliyahu Hanavi.
I don’t know which is sadder at this point. If we found out you were crooks or if you really ehrlichely believe this is the way to go about helping.
I shudder to think what a chilul Hashem it would cause if the secular world caught wind of this and saw us treating our beloved daughters like cattle for market. If they saw an anonymous group of “helpers” demanding thousands upon thousands of dollars and making you feel guilty for even questioning. C’mon people wake up!
Uch and Vey to our society if this is what our shidduch initiatives need to look like. Uch and Vey that Nasi’s ad was even somewhat plausible to our messed up psyches.
When it comes to money I don’t trust anyone. This sounds like a scam to me. If you want people to trust you then you have to say who you are, what your credentials are, which rabbonim support you and which rabbonim are being trusted to hold the monies involved. Too many Rabbonim have been involved in money fraud. This whole thing is too sketchy. Unless Rabbonim sign their names to this and some Honorable Rav is taking responsibility for holding the money and returning the money, this is just unreliable.
Dr. Pepper- Fistly, your welcome! It’s nice to know there are still pple out there who appreciate a civil disagreement.
Secondly, you raised quite a few valid points. However, what isn’t so clear to me is:
“the yeshiva structure was designed so that talmidim have minimal responsibilities so they can devote their full energy towards their learning. Marriage is an enormous responsibility.”
Marriage IS a huge responsibility. But apparently the boys we are talking about don’t actually carry this burden until they are married for at least 2-3 years (some even longer). These boys are being supported from head to toe either by their in-laws or by their wives. They dont have any parnasah worries. (I’m speaking about the majority, I am sure there are exceptions…)
so my question is, why cant a 20 year old boy get married and continue learning the SAME THREE SEDARIM per day?
There will be some adjustments… it’s not exactly like living in a dorm. But will his learning be compromised? Will he suddenly be at risk for divorce??
Thanks ontheball for putting it so well.
Since time began, it has been usual for men to marry younger women. Most boys outside of chassidishe communities are not ready for marriage at 19, it is most unfair to pressurise them to even consider it, marriage is not a mathematical equation!!! I applaud NASI for trying to help, but the financial details are sordid and upsetting. There are some great shadchanim out there, but some are rather tough too. Family yichus and wealth are NOT EVERYTHING.
I have introduced a number of couples to each other, cried with pleasure when they married and NEVER would take a penny. Sure there are professional shadchans out there charging who do a great job, but focus please on personality and middos, not prestige and wealth.
If indeed there is a widely acknowledged disconnect between shadchanim and singles, then the system is truly broken.
If all involved are truly convinced that the shadchan-powered system is the only way, then nothing will improve. The shadchanim are the sole address for the marriage process, and they alone will determine the rules of the game. Translation: Pay up or stay single.
I do not believe that this sytem is the only legitimate one.
I have read various comments people have been putting out there about this project. It bothers me that the people behind it are being very secretive about who is organizing this project and which Gedolim are endorsing it. However, once vertification can be established, the bottom line is that if you are an older single girl (having been there myself), you would give anything to have someone really working for you in the hopes that you will walk down the aisle one day. It is very depressing to watch your siblings getting married and having children, while you sit home waiting for someone to think of you. Those who got married early and have children right away, do not have a clue as to the desperation felt by older singles. While $11,000 is no small sum, however, over the course of a lifetime, it is not a lot of money. When I was single and without family in New York to help things along, if I had the cash, I would have given it in a heartbeat. If you got married easily, it is difficult to envision what life is like for an older single girl and the desperation she feels. Therefore, those commenting should try to put themselves in the place of these single wonderful ladies, who are accomplished and have wonderful middos, and who deserve a chance at happiness.
Dr. Pepper:
With all due respect, yeshiva guys at 22 are no more mature than they were at 19 (they have not had any experiences that would teach them responsibility, etc.), and no more ready to support a family than they were at 19.
I’m not disagreeing with you that many are immature, bit that is just as true at 22 as well. At least at 19 many have not picked up Yeshiva dorm habits!
(personally, I think 19 has to come along with BC until they are ready, but I don’t think the roshei yeshiva would go for it (which I can’t understand at all! They would rather the boy wait to get married? That makes the issue worse.))
Finally, we are already in a “divorce crisis”. If the couple had no choice other than to be “protected” under their parents wing (as being younger), they could figure a way to work it out (assuming they are normal and CAN be married).
It can be a nice idea but it still doesn’t help the older singles. What about them?
GAW: Wait, you actually think guys should get married at 19? I thought you were just saying that would be the only mathematical way to solve the problem, but I couldn’t imagine you were endorsing it.
Well, good luck with that one.
no
popa_bar_abba
It will not happen, but it is the only non-neis solution.
no
Jam-
There is more responsibility in marriage than just money.
NOT AT ALL!
Read the item in the NEWS section of YWN – “YWN Mailbag: Response to the NASI Game-Changing Shidduch Project”
It says it all!
The way I see it this not going to help many. If MANY girls sign up than we are back to square one. NASI claims that demographics is to blame and that there are not enough older boys for the older girls. Then, if NANY girls sign up what will the money help. I guess NASI is betting that not many will sign up. One must concluse that the plan is for a select few.
popa_bar_abba
It will not happen, but it is the only non-neis solution.
I agree with that. I am just surprised that you actually seem to think it is also a good idea.
I noticed a lot of similarities in NASI project and CR personality AZ. I wonder if AZ started it?
Why are people proposing that boys start dating at 19 instead of girls waiting to date until 22/23. That makes so much more sense given the fact that in the Yeshivish world girls are expected to support the family and by waiting until 22/23 the girls will have the time to get an education which will allow them to hopefully get a more lucrative Parnassah than what they would get if they married at 19 and have no education. It also alleviates the financial strain for the parents who now have to either support the kids until the girl finishes her education – or forever because the girl did not get an education. I understand that most parents are not going to want to wait around for their girls to go out until 22/23 for the fear that they will be left behind but if that was the Takana – and people were keeping to it – it sounds a lot more logical. I know that I – the mother of Beis Medrash boys who are not yet in shidduchim – would rather have my boys marry girls who have a degree and are a little older and mature than girls who are 19 years old. 19 is very young to be juggling marriage, job, and hopefully a baby. I think it makes sense to give these girls some breathing room and allow them time before jumping into marriage.
I agree with that. I am just surprised that you actually seem to think it is also a good idea.
All the reasons why it is a bad idea don’t apply in the yeshivish world except two:
1: Beis Medrash pays in, Kollel gets paid.
2: No BC (which again makes no sense whatsoever).
One issue not being discussed- who is “guaranteeing” the thousands of dollars to be paid upfront? What controls are in place to make sure the money is safely in escrow and won’t be “borrowed” by an administrator who’s behind on his mortgage?
I think the reason they want the money up front is that the shadchanim will then have assurance they will get it, and an incentive to work for the person. They do not want to be told the money is not available until further notice, after they complete a shidduch.
In addition, although the problem may be caused by an age gap, however, with the money involved, they may now consider redding older girls to younger guys (1-2 years apart), which they never would have done before.
The more I read about NASI and its suggestions, the more I think the guys at endthemadness are on to something.
this whole project and all the publicity it is getting makes me feel embarrassed to be part of the same movement, especially when people don’t know that not all frum people are of the same opinion.
Whoever is in charge of NASI (and of course the fact that their names are not publicized is ridiculous and indicative of what a scam this is) should in my opinion end this crazy operation and let everyone know that it’s over. You are just embarrassing yourselves. Know that most people are laughing at you….
All my other thoughts have already posted by others.
Oy.. what have we come to?
gavra_at_work-
I would hope that once one reaches twenty they realize that they are not a youngster anymore and that they have to mature.
If not then I agree with you 100% that if at 22 (or 40 for that matter) they are still on the same maturity level of a teenager then they should not even be thinking about getting married.
They left out the end of the sentence. Game changing initiative- to make things worse.
First thing that will happen is that the price of regular shadchanis will sky rocket because shadchanim will say ” why should i find poor shpintza a shidduch for 1000 when i can work on the list and make at least five k?”
Secondly within 6 months we will see shadachnim are ONLY going to deal with people on the list. it will be a trend. People will call shadchanim and the first thing they will hear is “i only deal with ” The List”
Its going to be gadlus! “The List” will be a new status symbol, anther avenue for people who want to show off there money.
Whatever little was still working in the shidduch system had just been eradicated!
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