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You my friend, are hopelessly stuck on the first level of understanding.
And you apparently haven’t even gotten to the first level.
Math has virtually nothing to do with the validity of the age gap theory,
That statement makes no sense to me. I’m not sure which part of the equation you disbelieve; that we have population growth? That the tendency is for the boys to be older than the girls? That this combination leads to a discrepancy in the number of available boys vs. girls?
and it certainly has nothing to do with the moral issues surrounding manipulation.
Agreed – that’s a separate discussion. I’ll leave that to our gedolei hador, who clearly feel that something should be done about the issue. (For that matter, I’ll assert that we should take their word for it that there’s an age gap issue, and trust that they’ve done the proper research.)
,When an anonymous organization, supposedly standing behind anonymous roshei yeshiva, expects people to trust them with thousands of dollars, it invites cynicism. And if it can’t stand up to scrutiny then something definitely seems rotten.
I would definitely advise anyone who would hand over a check to first verify that is indeed backing from reliable talmidei chachamim. I just don’t think people should be publicly blasting this project simply because they don’t know who it is.
The response has basically been that they didn’t read the fine print.</em.
Fine print? There was a contract?
I happen to agree that not paying shadchanim from the previous initiative is bad PR for this one, but they are totally different. The first one had NASI paying from their own (fund-raised) money, which they ran out of.
This one is entrusting them with private money put in escrow.
I was mainly questioning whether NASI is entitled to the money.
If the shadchan and the girl are signed up, why isn’t it fair to assume that this new suggestion was encouraged by NASI? The money they receive is a relatively small amount, (don’t jump on me; $500 is a lot of money, but only a fraction of the overall money paid) and covers administrative fees.
(Although I think its fair to ask if the shadchan should be getting the big bucks rather than normal shadchanus).
Again, why not?
But being provable won’t help if you signed on the dotted line that the anonymous NASI organization and an unnamed rosh yeshiva decide if they get the money or not.
They’re not anonymous to anyone who does even a bit of research.
Perhaps flip the tables and redt shidduchim to girls first and if still no yes from a guy, despite a yes from the girl, there is more going on than just “not enough bodies to go around”.
What else do you think is going on? “Not enough bodies to go around” explains it perfectly well.
Bkavod Gadol, thats where i begin to think this is not on the up and up. Why do you need to advertise? trust me, there is not ONE HUMAN ORTHODOX person with a girl aged 19-27 who hasnt heard about this outrageous proposal. And besides, the girls are desperate remember? They should be flocking to you in droves, isnt that the point? You dont need to advertise, thats a complete waste of money. iMHO and still no one has given me this answer, if I cant get a simple yes from any boy and my daughter for example is Miss ploni bas ploni, 18, wealthy , yichusdik, thin, beautiful, size two, willing to support, earning a degree, alle malllos, wonderful family, then how is the shadchan gonna get a yes from these boys? the problem isnt “finding” them, the problem is getting their mothers to say YES! I just feel we are barking up the wrong tree here.
RC, you are correct. DY, RC has nailed it with his scenario. More than anything, it is the biggest hinderance to shidduchim.
I believe the NASI initiative will help, somewhat, in that most shadchanim will keep their eye on the prize, the guaranteed money, and stay after someone long enough to get them to say yes.
I truly believe this is an initiative to reward shadchanim, who stick with it long enough, despite the nonesense and drivel they have to put up with on a daily basis and will incentivize them to stick it out, their payday is guaranteed. Perhaps if NASI would be a bit more forthright in their advertisements, something such as…
Shadchanim, do you feel that you are stretched to the limit by people who waste your time with nonesense and stupidity? Does 3 weeks of phone calls, meeting go down the drain every time the boys mother gets involved and is concerned about some 4th cousin of the girls great grandmother whose yichus doesnt pas for her family? Well, dont worry, we have a new game changing plan guarantees you a large payday upon the successful completion of a shidduch. The fee structure is outlined below. The older the girl, the more outrageous and crazy the mother of the boy, so we have guaranteed you a larger payday. Who is guaranteeing you this payday, why of course, these very girls who are desperate to hear from you that there is a boy who wants to meet her.
the problem isnt “finding” them, the problem is getting their mothers to say YES!
rc,
If the mothers aren’t saying yes, how are the boys going out and getting married?
Of course they say yes, eventually, after sifting through 47 names, across 27 weeks. They finally say yes, to one girl. Meanwhile, numerous girls sat and waited on this holy list, shadchanim their hands tied behind their backs. Now, they have a yes (insert a Marv Albert YES here) from his mother, and the other girls are released from their hostage situation, only to be placed, on several more lists, while the agonizing process begins again. But the shadchanim, they will hang in there, they have a guaranteed payday for all their hard work courtesy of the new game changing plan.
AZ:
CB: Arbitrators are in the contract, signers will be available to any of the girls who ask.
why are signers not in the contract? Can NASI add and remove signers at will?
CB: perhaps you failed to read the item 1. of the earlier post that a well known respected and reputable firm is putting their name behind the audit and security of the money and making the books available. I would think that that should be a fairly good way to assuage any questions wouldn’t you? I actually think that’s even better then putting name(s) of R”Y on letterhead who in all likelyhood in most organizations don’t analyze and review every check written and every deposit made.
firstly, I don’t think the accounting firm will get involved in disputes about whether a shadchan made a shidduch or not. They will only ensure that the money isn’t outright stolen and used for trips to atantic city or the like. I applaud that this oversight has been established though.
However I don’t understand how the letterhead bit fits with the point you made earlier that 3. Withdrawals from the fund will require two signatures, one from a list of administrative personnel, Group A, and one from Group B, which consists of a few well known Roshei Yeshiva. That statement was definitely meant to convey a sense of security to girls and their parents. Are the anonymous roshei yeshiva merely figureheads who will rubber stamp each check or will they actually be involved in determining whether the money should be paid? You can’t have it both ways.
And you still haven’t answered why the names of these roshei yeshiva are a secret, especially after promising transparency…
CB: I think NASI would also urge eveyone who considers joining to read everything clearly and make sure they are 100% comfortable with the way things are being run.
We found something we agree on! 🙂
DaasYochid,
I just don’t think people should be publicly blasting this project simply because they don’t know who it is.
….
They’re not anonymous to anyone who does even a bit of research.
For the record, I don’t know who they are and tehrefore have nothing against them personally. However I am not blasting them simply because I don’t know who it is…it’s the other way around. If the name of the head of the organization was made public and he/she had personal credibility then I would maybe ask less questions. Now that there is nobody openly standing behind the organization I don’t see any reason to trust them.
Your posts on other topics have given me the impression that you’re a talmid chacham. Is there an inyan of being dan lekaf zechus a nameless anonymous organization? I would think not.
Fine print? There was a contract?
I happen to agree that not paying shadchanim from the previous initiative is bad PR for this one, but they are totally different. The first one had NASI paying from their own (fund-raised) money, which they ran out of.
This one is entrusting them with private money put in escrow.
I didn’t mean literally fine print on a contact. I meant that people trusted NASI’s ads that they would pay but somewhere along the way there were conditions that allowed them off the hook. It makes people want to ask every possible question this time around and not make any assumptions.
My examples may have been bad examples, but the point I was trying to make is that you have to admit that there will be cases where there will be disputes, if not in the cases I mentioned then in some other cases. AZ mentioned that they have dayanim for arbitration, but at that point the girl or her parents are trying to get money back that is no longer in escrow so the burden of proof is on them, not on NASI. There do not seem to be any safeguards preventing the money from being removed from escrow prior to resolving the dispute.
Your posts on other topics have given me the impression that you’re a talmid chacham.
I’m a good faker.
Is there an inyan of being dan lekaf zechus a nameless anonymous organization?
It’s not so anonymous; it’s quite easy to do a little Googling to find out, so I think the question is moot (I happen to know who it is and give him credibility, so maybe I’m biased). Otherwise, it’s an interesting theoretical question, but the better question is if loshon horah (or motzi shem ra) is muttar in such a case; I don’t think so, since this is a real organization. (I’m not saying you specifically said LH, but some certainly did.)
It makes people want to ask every possible question this time around and not make any assumptions.
I’ve stated my agreement to that statement, and so has AZ. My issue is with some people’s tone.
AZ mentioned that they have dayanim for arbitration, but at that point the girl or her parents are trying to get money back that is no longer in escrow so the burden of proof is on them, not on NASI. There do not seem to be any safeguards preventing the money from being removed from escrow prior to resolving the dispute.
I don’t know the details of the contract, but I would think that the period between the engagement and the wedding would be sufficient to at least notify the accounting firm that there’s a dispute, so that the money doesn’t get released.
CB:
1. Becasue thats’ how they want it.
2. The signers themselves will be needed to add other signers. Same with the outside arbitrators.
CB:
How about picking up a yated and read what somone who actually had the intelligence to do their own research wrote and how their perception changed.
Here’s a qoute
I do not know whether nasi will succeed or not. But I do believe that I now know that nasi is a serious project, undertaken by serious and honorable people working lesheim Shamayim.”
btw he signed his real name.
It’s kind’ve hillarios that people scream bloddy murder scam scam scam… and then they realize oops i looks stupid… There’s a well known accounting firm who is going to ensure that money isn’t stolen.
Okay so now lets dream up a new scam. When a shidduch is made for a girl on the list, NASI will/may (for some reason) decide that the person the girl says is the shadchan isn’t really the shadchan-and they will release the money to the registered shadchan against the wishes of the girl…..
maybe because they want the $500 or perhaps they have a more diabolical plan, they are actually in cahoots with the shadchanim and are getting kickbacks.
(btw there’s a system in place (in the contract) for estabishing early on who the shadchan is right at the begining of the dating process so people can’t show up and claim dibs. At the same time, Halacha recognizes that there are different stages to the shidduch process and anyone who play a vital role in any of these stages is halachically elgible for part of the shadchanus. These halachic guidelines will be used in determining how to disperse the shadchanus)
however this is not the forum for discussing the finer details of the program.
Anyone who is interersted contacts the program and receives answers to all their questions.
Here’s a thought, ask away! because all these questions and concerns make their way to the people running the program and it makes it all that much better. The program probably hasn’t dreamt up every possible way to possible to abuse the program so please keep the ideas coming, and they will simply incoporate anything they haven’t thought of…….
but when you are finished here a idea
use all your free time and creativity to actually come up with some good ideas for solving the tragedy!!!
Your rudeness is really inexcusable. That two times now that you have tried to call me stupid. I’d take AYC over DY anyday. I am not using your lack of understanding as an excuse to call you stupid,- and your lack of understanding certainly doesn’t make me stupid, so you really have no occasion to do so. All in all, I think you are either taking this too personally, or you are unwilling to any thought to this matter, or both.
In any case, I’ll repeat myself so you have another chance to digest or ignore my point. The mere fact that multiplying a number by another number makes a larger number does not speak to the relevance of the calculation to the real life situation. In plain language, until you prove that the shidduch pool increasing by 3.5 percent every year is a reasonable assumption, it is not a reasonable assumption. I could just as easily say the growth is 1%. I stress the word prove, because that is what is lacking – anecdotal evidence exists for and against the argument, but no proof. I am sorry for you if you are willing to accept postulation and guesswork in place of scientific proof.
To your last point, I too will defer to the Gedolei Hador when it comes to manipulation and its appropriateness – when they are not deliberately misled into making tbeir decision. In this case. I am certain they would retract if they had real facts.
That two times now that you have tried to call me stupid.
I don’t think you’re stupid, I just don’t think your train of thought is logical in this case.
In any case, I’ll repeat myself so you have another chance to digest or ignore my point.
I really don’t think you need hard statistics to realize that our population is b”H growing at a rapid pace. Anecdotally, to be sure, all of the schools that I know have larger younger grades than older grades. And any shadchan I’ve spoken to knows more older girls than boys.
There is a precise mathematical formula to figure out what annual percentage population increase there will be based on average number of children per family – TFR – Google “Growth of world population during various epochs of earth history can be calculated by a well-known formula”. True, I don’t have an exact number for the TFR in our community, but it’s certainly well above the replacement level, and more than compensates for the slightly higher number of males born. The question is to what extent, but the highest recorded TFR in the world is above 7, at which the annual growth would be about 3.5%. Replacement rate is about 2.1, so anything in between would still indicate a population growth, albeit less.
So we can use a “seicheldik” approach, and try to do something about the issue, or pretend that there’s only minimal growth, that the shadchanim are delusional, and there’s no shidduch crises. We then continue to let many bnos Yisroel suffer, because we didn’t do a precise statistical study. I would opt for the former.
To your last point, I too will defer to the Gedolei Hador when it comes to manipulation and its appropriateness – when they are not deliberately misled into making tbeir decision. In this case. I am certain they would retract if they had real facts.
In any argument involving people who claim to defer to gedolim, there will always be those who defend their position by claiming that the gedolim were misled. I think it’s a bizayon to them to assume that they’re so naive, so that their opinion is worthless. They’re not so simpleminded to be constantly tricked by bad intentioned people.
This is not intended to agree or disagree with any NASI initiative. It adresses specifically the notion that people are rightfully suspicious and cynical whenever anything is attributed to gedolim. I cant speak for other people and their motivations, but I will tell you my reason.
If the Gedolim truly believe what is attributed to them, why dont they come out and say it? I am a close talmid of one of the signatories on the original NASI initiative, he told me straight out that what he was told and what the add says are not the same thing. He was asked if he would sign that it is a good idea to promote close in age shidduchim. He responded yes. The resulting ads then ran with a whole discussion on age gaps and claims about girls never marrying… oh and by the way we think people should promote close in age shidduchim (more like getting a signature and then adding text). I am also personally aware of someone who sent a letter to Rav Chaim Kanievsky Shlita asking him if what was reported in his name (the specific issue is irrelevent here) as well as his fathers name was true. I saw the reply, it contained two words “Lo Hadam”. People do have every right to be cynical about things reported in the name of a gadol or gedolim, nobody knows what the question was or what the answer was, all we know is that someone claims this is what he said and this is what he meant. In the case of the NASI ad, not only has this Rosh Yeshiva not encouraged his own bachurim to do close in age shidduchim (he wont discourage it), one of his own daughters got engaged and married after the appearance of this ad to a boy more than 3 years older than her (she was almsot 20). In short, things that are verifiable often dont hold up to scrutiny, so am cynical and often simply do not believe what was said in the name of any gedolim.
apy,
I agree, anyone should speak to his own rav for guidance and not rely on what it says in the paper. It should be noted that NASI’s two initiatives dealt with the issue from a shadchan’s perspective, they never told parents to hold off on an otherwise promising shidduch because of age.
Your earlier post, about the girls being held hostage, is incorrect, because until the boy says yes, she is free to go out with someone else. Also, the boys are not just simply sitting around idly until they come around to giving a yes, they’re going out with someone else!
APY: Your previous post is inaccurate and disengenous.
The ONLY thing that was ever said in the name of 70 R”Y is EXACTLY what was published in their name with their very own signatures.
For this exact reason, the letter from 70 R”Y dind’t say ANYTHING about ANY specific programs and it did NOT mention NASI by name simply because no one has or ever will claim that the 70 R”Y signed on to anything other than exactly what they signed.
ALL NASI has ever stated in the name of 70 R”Y is exactly what they themselves stated.
For you to imply otherwise is simply inacurate (at best).
Please go back to the Rosh Yeshiva with whom you are so close, please bring him the original letter with his signature and simply ask him did he sign it or not. (if you would like a copy of the original letter please contact the project, i’m sure they’ll provide it to you).
If he did – then you owe NASI a apology.
We await your response.
He didnt sign any letter. He was asked if he would endorse close in age shidduchim. he said says. His signature appears in an ad that promotes close in age shidduchim plus claims which he did not and does not endorse. I dont owe you or NASI (which is one and the same) any apologies, however, if it makes you feel better, I apologize.
“because until the boy says yes, she is free to go out with someone else.”
Sure she is. Some other boy who is holding her, and a bunch of other girls, hostage on their list.
But yes, I do agree with the statement you made “that NASI’s two initiatives dealt with the issue from a shadchan’s perspective”, I only hope it is wildly successful.
Sure she is. Some other boy who is holding her, and a bunch of other girls, hostage on their list.
What do you mean “hostage”? Aren’t you misusing the word “hostage”?
Its called hyperbole. Something this topic cant see to get enough of.
It will be interesting to compare older girl engagements’ statistics pre-“Nasi game-changing plan” to post-“Nasi game-changing plan”. Me thinks statistics will be the same and the only noticeable game-change will be the Shadchan pay. I hope Im wrong though.
If nothing else, it’ll help the Heimish economy.
APY:
“His signature appears in an ad that promotes close in age shidduchim (plus claims) which he did not and does not endorse.”
Sorry this is NOT TRUE. Everyone who signed the kol korei (i wouldn’t call it ad” signed it themesleves. Other than that Kol Korei, to the best of my knowledge here is NOTHING that NASI has been involved in (and published publicly) that has ever had any signature.
Like i said before, please bring him the original letter with his signature and ask him if this is his handwriting or not, BEFORE you make wildly false accustions implying that someone miserpresented his opinion or forged his signature.
Threre was one person-Rav Frankel Shlit”a- (out of the the entire group) who signed and then a few weeks later asked to take his signature off. Thus his name didn’t appear after the first time the ad was run.
Azo.is: I think you fail to see the main purpose of the NASI Project in general and this program in particular. Sure “older girls” engagements would be awesome (not sure what metric you would use to measure it) but the primary goal is NOT “older girl” engagments, it girls who are not yet older and helping ensure that they don’t become “older girls” by getting them the shadchan attention at a age when it can really make a big difference for them.
Its called hyperbole. Something this topic cant see to get enough of.
Hyperbole means exaggeration of something which does actually exist. Since in no way, shape or form is a girl held hostage by a boy not agreeing to go out with her, the term is still being misused.
AZ. Notice the context of where I raised this situation. I did not accuse you and your NASI project of lying, misleading or misrepresenting. Yes he signed. No he did not read everything. The way it was explained to him, by those he trusts, was not the way it came out. He heard what the thrust was, said OK hand me my pen. No, he did not ask to have his name reoved because he was willing to overlook it for the overall greater good he feels the initiative would (and perhaps is) have. You are taking this as a personal attack against you and your organization. Dont. If you did. I am sorry.
Actually, the definition of hyperbole according to Webster, is “extravagant exaggeration”. The example given in my edition is “a mile high ice cream cone”.
Would you prefer the word paralyzed ?
Would you prefer the word paralyzed ?
No, that would still be completely inaccurate. To repeat, she is FREE to go out with anyone who agrees, although nobody is under any obligation to go out with her.
I’m not just arguing semantics; my point is that having a girl give a yes first won’t change the equation, it will only cause her more heartache.
Would you prefer the word paralyzed?
Actually, that would solve half the problem.
The word “hostage” implies that she is being held back from doing something, and also that it is someone else who is holding her back.
Neither of those are true to any extent at all, so it is twice wrong.
The word “paralyzed” implies she is held back from doing something, but does not imply it is being imposed on her by someone else. So it is only wrong once. Which is twice as good.
If you want a word which is accurate, you might say “while she is on some other boy’s list”. The word “is” captures the meaning you are (should be) trying to convey perfectly.
Many girls ARE in effect “hostage” when they are waiting a long time for a response from the boy’s side. I know so many girls who strongly (and in my opinion wrongly) hold that it is wrong to make a date with someone who is ready to say yes, if the girl is still waiting to hear from someone else who was suggested before this, but who just did not get back to the shadchan yet (maybe because he has “lists” of girls). IMHO it is stupid and a waste of precious time, to fail to agree to meet someone else, just because the person you are trying to meet is taking his time (or whatever reason is holding up the works).
I know someone who missed out on a potentially great shidduch (yeah, yeah, if it were truly bashert, it would have happened anyway…blah, blah blah), because it was suggested while she was still waiting for a response on another shidduch. The other guy finally got back to her shadchan, the date unfortunately did not go well, and by the time she agreed to talk about the other boy (who would have gone out with her had she said yes instead of waiting for the first guy), he was busy with someone else, whom he eventually married.
Many girls ARE in effect “hostage” when they are waiting a long time for a response from the boy’s side. I know so many girls who strongly (and in my opinion wrongly) hold that it is wrong to make a date with someone who is ready to say yes, if the girl is still waiting to hear from someone else who was suggested before this, but who just did not get back to the shadchan yet (maybe because he has “lists” of girls)
If that would be the norm, that would indeed validate the notion that the boys are holding them “hostage.”
Since that is not the norm, you can’t really consider it anything, since the girls who do that are being dumb.
If the girls intend to wait for an answer before moving on, they should simply make that clear to the boy. It is a simple solution.
I know myself, if a shadchan had called me and said here is an idea, and the girl is not moving on until she gets an answer, I would have responded immediately: “Tell the girl the answer is no, and she should move on.” And then, if I decided to date her, I would call back and say “I want to date her, does she want to date me?”
Simply: You can’t do stupid things without telling me and then blame me for not figuring you out. Unless I am your husband, which is exactly the point.
“AZ: Since you are opening up the the floor to any and all questions, i do have a question for you. Now, probably you will just skip over my question and answer one that you want to, but if you do,you show that you cant really back this whole thing up!
(Hopefully that dig will be enough to get you to finally respond to this numerously asked question but, hey, you never know!)
THE QUESTION: WHO ARE THE “few well known Roshei Yeshiva”????
THIS QUESTION HAS BEEN ASKED MANY TIMES BY VARIOUS POSTERS BUT YOU SOMEHOW ALWAYS SEEM TO MISS IT!!
HOPEFULLY YOU WONT MISS THIS ONE!!”
“AZ: If you are going to say that you dont tell the names of the few well known Roshei Yeshiva” because then they will just look like figureheads, then why do you keep on telling us about them??? after all, they are just figureheads, they dont have any real say in Nasi!!
now, i realize that is not what you are saying but im just trying to show you how you came across to me. If they arent just figureheads( which i sure hope theyre not!!) why cant you tell us some names?? otherwise, how does it help anyone if they are “well known”??
(please answer this directly- see my earlier post as for why)”
AZ: YOU NEVER ANSWERED HIM…WHY NOT??
PBA. You dont know if it is the norm, do you? The situation faced by MANY girls is that they are waiting on a shadchan who is waiting on a boy. They may be waiting on any shadchanim who are waiting on many boys. As long as the boy is allowed to continue to take his sweet time and say yes to a girl, girls and their parent are sitting on pins and needles and growing ever more nervous that they dont hear from a shadchan yes, a boy wants to go out with you, unless there is a new plan in the works to set up shidduchim that I a not aware of. Held hostage is quite appropriate. This initiative will hopefully get shadchanim, in the hope of a big payday, to stay on top of boys, exert a little pressure and pull a yes more quickly out of them. Until then, the current system does keep girls hostage in a sense.
PBA. You dont know if it is the norm, do you? The situation faced by MANY girls is that they are waiting on a shadchan who is waiting on a boy.
The norm I was referring to is that girls do not wait for an answer before moving on. Since that is the norm (and I do know), there is no hostage situation. You may call off your swat team.
If you continue to call it a hostage situation, without disputing this basic point, it will be hard to take you seriously. (you may become like me)
AZ: YOU NEVER ANSWERED HIM…WHY NOT??
He did answer, at the beginning of this post.
AZ: You said “The ONLY thing that was ever said in the name of 70 R”Y is EXACTLY what was published in their name with their very own signatures.”
However, the original ad about the game changing plans and letters in defense of it that came out in the ensuing days, DID claim that the roshei yeshiva were on board for the program. See http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=107721
among other places.
It is well known that many roshei yeshiva who signed were only signing on the concept that one should not feel badly about dating a girl of your own age or older. They never meant to force people not to date younger girls. The proof is in the amount of those same roshei yeshiva who have actually done those kind of shidduchim with their own children since the letter was signed.
They also never signed on the over the top monetizing of the entiore process, by forcing people to pay many thousands that they don’t have up front for nothing more than a name on a list. Did they agree to quadrupling and more of shadchanim fees?
midwesterner,
AZ was talking about the original letter, which is what apushtayid was questioning. You are referring to the newer initiative, on which no signatures were ever published.
I dont take myself seriously, neither should you.
However, girls DO need a yes from a boy, or they can never go on a date because boys get redt the girls first.
The typical scenario is a girl meets a shadchan. shadchan promises to set her up. Several weeks go by, no call. Why, because the shadchan gave her name to a number of boys and either they said no, or they gave no answer. Girls have to engage a number of shadchanim, to get their name spread around enough in the hopes that a boy will say, yes (the old, throw enough at the wall and something will eventually stick theory). They are in fact being held hostage, until someone says yes (heaven help them they go to a singles event or try to meet a boy any other way, they will be branded and probably dropped by the shadchanim) they have no prospect of a date, nobody to look into, nothing. they are sitting around waiting and wondering. We have long since passed the point where people are nervous, hysterical and blaming everyone and everything. Hopefully the promises of cold hard cash will keep shadchanim plugging away, and maybe even exerting a little pressure on boys and their families to give answers, for after all, unless these girls get married, they dont see a dime. Unless these girls are dating, they are not going to get married. At this point, I would go so far as to suggest using some of the money to PAY boys to go out with girls. If a 27 year old has sent $7500 (or whatever the number is) to NASI, send $50 to a boy and tell him it is for a date and give him more after each date, perhaps reserve up to 10% of all dollars put in for this purpose. If we are willing to believe money will motivate a shadchan, why not believe it will motivate a boy to consider a girl (actually, given the monetary demands shadchanim already here from boys, it is quite clear that money does in fact talk to them – for sure their mothers).
I have come to believe that DY ans AZ are the same person.
I dont take myself seriously, neither should you.
I shouldn’t take myself seriously, or I shouldn’t take you seriously? 😉
At this point, I would go so far as to suggest using some of the money to PAY boys to go out with girls.
Okay, I won’t take you seriously.
I have come to believe that DY ans AZ are the same person.
No, it’s just that AZ has taken me hostage. You can call the SWAT team back. 🙂
Sounds like an Abbot and Costello routine.
midwest: There has never been anything published in NASI”s name with signatures of R”Y attached. That is to say NASI has purposely not published in any public format the names of the Rabbonim and R”Y who support, endorse and advise their specific course of action. (for the record, -and for cr memeber ISA – people who contact the program are welcome to the information, and especially people who are on a “need to know” basis, to bad the anonymous CR chevra doesn’t make the cut). Please do NOT imply that NASI used the 70 R”Y support any of their inittives. That is simply false and it’s not like there has ever been any kind of action by NASI that could even remotly lead to that mistake.
All that NASI ever said in the names of the 70 R”Y was exactly what they themselves stated in their own handwirting. That letter was for all intents and purposes unrelated to the NASI Project and many of the people who signed the letter (at that time) probably never heard of the NASI Project. It wasn’t and isn’t meant to be a endorsement of any specific course of action that NASI has or will do, and no one ever claimed that it is.
It is a letter stating exactly what it stated.
Your insinusation that NASI used that letter as support for it’s specific programs, and your subsequent challenge that a R”Y who signed did or doesn’t follow a specific program is irrlevant and disingenuos at best.
apushatayid:
Since we came to such good agreement on the other thread, let’s do that here also.
You should agree that: Nothing the boys are doing is limiting the options of the girls in any way. This is because the girls do not normally agree or disagree to any other dates as a result of what the other boys are doing.
I will agree that: The current system, for whatever reason it exists, kind of stinks for the girls. They never have any idea what is going on in the boys thinking, and give their information to a shadchan and just never hear anything. They sit there wondering if the guy will go out with them, and never hear back with a no. They feel like they are hanging in limbo.
You should agree that: This is not the boys fault, and the boys really cannot do anything to solve it. Since, when a boy is approached with 5 girls within one week, it would really make little sense for him to say “yes” to one, and “no” to the others. The reason is that after he goes out with the first, he might want to go out with the second. Or third.
The only adjustment I could see made, would be for a guy who knows he will never go out with a girl to send back a “no.” This is often done informally, when a shadchan calls with a bad idea, you just say “no.” I suppose the shadchan sometimes calls the girl and tells them.
I don’t really know if this proposed adjustment is a good thing. It would depend on whether girls like getting rejected by guys they haven’t even asked to go out with. (Shprintze visits a shadchan on Tuesday. On Friday, shrpintze gets a phone-call where shadchan recites the names of 7 guys who do not want to go out with her.)
Agree?
“Okay, I won’t take you seriously.”
Why is it any crazier than dangling money in front of a shadchan to get the same result?
There are many options you missed. Where to begin…..
“You should agree that: Nothing the boys are doing is limiting the options of the girls in any way.”
a) Actually, it is their inaction that limits their options, dont want to say no, say maybe, but I am pusruing another opportunity right now, no need to put 5 names on a list.
b) It is the shadchan really that should be faulted. Why give Yankel the names of 5 girls, give him one, or two at most. dont let him tie up 5 or more.
“Since, when a boy is approached with 5 girls within one week, it would really make little sense for him to say “yes” to one, and “no” to the others.”
He can only date one at a time. Nobody asks him to say no, rather, say “im pursuing something else, or I’m involved with someone else”, not put it in his back pocket “just in case”. What happens as a result is that the girl is held hostage on his list. this is also on the shadchan. Dont give Yankel 5 names, give him one or two.
“The only adjustment I could see made, would be for a guy who knows he will never go out with a girl to send back a “no.”
You dont see limiting the number of names a shadchan gives as an option? You dont see a shadchan saying, “you said yes to shprintse, so baila, faiga, sara and chana are being redt to others and if shprintze doesnt work out we can look into others”? these girls dont belong to Yankel, but by a shadchan giving the name to yankel, they are all held hostage on his “list”.
“It would depend on whether girls like getting rejected by guys they haven’t even asked to go out with”
This happens already, only shprintze doesnt know how many guys said no to her, or if the shadchan even mentioned her to any guys. Are you concerned that shprintzes feelings will be hurt if she says yes to yankel and he says no? Then to chaim, and he says no, then to berel and he says no?
I give up.
I’m starting to feel like a fool; responding the same facts and analysis again and again and getting nowhere. I don’t know what facts you are using, or what you think the implication of those facts is.
“and especially people who are on a “need to know” basis, (to bad the anonymous CR chevra doesn’t make the cut)
AZ:
you do sort of contradict yourself when you say that, dont you??
By answering all the questions posed to you on this forum, you are automatically implying that you believe our opinion counts, and that we are of enough importance to be made aware of all the new NASI “updates” ( YOU are the one restarting the topic, see: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/if-youve-read-nasi-project-responds-have-you-changed-your-mind/page/6#post-323830 and: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/if-youve-read-nasi-project-responds-have-you-changed-your-mind/page/6#post-331777 this thread had been lying dormant for 3 weeks before you restarted it!!)
as you can see, YOU are the one who believes us to be worthy of “being in the know”!!!
And secondly, if we are not worthy of “being in the know”, and therefore arent privy to the names of these Roshai Yeshiva that back up this program, how does it help us if they are “well known”???? ( see http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/if-youve-read-nasi-project-responds-have-you-changed-your-mind/page/6#post-331777)
P.S. I do NOT disapprove of NASI!!!! I DO disapprove of the way AZ has handled this situation and his way of answering questions posed to him (and contradicting himself).
Why is it any crazier than dangling money in front of a shadchan to get the same result?
Because the boys are asking for the money after the chasunah, not before. 🙂
And secondly, if we are not worthy of “being in the know”, and therefore arent privy to the names of these Roshai Yeshiva that back up this program, how does it help us if they are “well known”????
Apparently, the rabbonim & RY don’t want there names published in a public forum. The questions AZ has answered are apparently able to be publicized. I don’t see the contradiction (I do see where AZ comes off a bit terse, though).
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