- This topic has 577 replies, 79 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 2 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
I’m starting to feel like a fool
“Because the boys are asking for the money after the chasunah, not before. :)”
The boys are asking for a guaranteed payday. This is no different than this new NASI initiative which is guaranteeing a payday to the shadchan. The only one who has no guarantees of anything, and it is her and her family who are putting up all the guaranteed money for both the boy and the shadchan is the girl and/or her family. At least use some of this money to guarantee her a date!
I am suggesting releasing some of that money to encourage dating. $5000 or $5,000,000 in a secure escrow account is meaningless if a girl doesn’t date.
“I’m starting to feel like a fool;”
starting?
DY. This is off topic, but I know you will read this. How do I find an old thread in the CR? It had to do with Lakewood and yeshivos requesting bus service on thanksgiving, dont remember the exact subject of the thread. If you find it, can you link it here and let me know how you found it?
First, I clicked “coffee room” on top of the page. Then, I clicked the blue “sticky” thread on top, called “Searching CR For Old Threads”. I clicked the link in Shticky Guy’s post (http://j82.us/searchyw.php) which leads to a modified Google search page programmed by chofetzchaim. I typed “Thanksgiving” in the search box, and clicked “Search the Coffee Room”. The thread you wanted was third on the page.
I made the link appear as it does by typing:
<a href="http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/school-busing-on-thanksgiving-in-lakewood">-->Here it is.<--</a>Thank you.
Your welcome, it’s a pleasure to post something which not an argument. 🙂
Finally….
From the NASI Project
In tomorrow’s papers, a ad regarding the ground breaking shidduch program will list names of Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva who endorse this specific program.
I commend NASI on taking this step in their program!!
(which papers?)
Are we allowed to know how many girls signed up?
Yated, Flatbush Jewish Journal, Five Towns Jewish Times, maybe Hamodia…..
Medium: if you register and are approved to be a shadchan for the program then you’ll know when you get the list, if you don’t want to be part of the program then you won’t know.
AZ, at the moment, unless something major changes, I wouldnt touch the list, because everyone I know who has girls in Shidduchim is disgusted by the concept.
Medium: To each their own….. as the saying goes, everyone is untitled to their own opinion, only the Palestinians (it seems) are entitled to their own set of facts…
Here is the full text of the ad
Update On The
GROUND BREAKING SHIDDUCH PROGRAM
1. Over 80 approved shadchanim have been sent contracts to join the project. There is a strict confidentiality provision and penalty in the shadchan’s contract, to ensure that the information of who is on the list of participants will not be divulged.
2. The firm Hirsch, Oelbaum, Bram, Hanover, & Lisker has been retained to provide audit and prepare year end statements. This will ensure proper security of all the Shadchan Project monies. Their reports will be of public record and will be made available upon request.
3. Contracts have been sent to all participants who have asked to join the program.
4. The contract allows for a sponsor to sign up their relative and/or friend. Many have done so already.
Please note: The program is an open program, and people can join at any time.
For information regarding joining the list or how to register as a shadchan please email [email protected]
This program is endorsed by the following Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva
Rav Moshe Brown Shlita (Far Rockaway)
Rav Kalman Epstein Shlita (Queens)
Rav Yaakov Forcheimer Shlita (Lakewood)
Rav Shmuel Fuerst Shlita (Chicago)
Rav Moshe Mordechai Lowi Shlita (Toronto)
Rav Yaakov Neuberger Shlita (Teaneck)
Rav Shlomo Feivel Schustal Shlita (Brooklyn)
Rav Dovid Weinberger Shlita (Lawrence)
Rav Herschel Welcher Shlita (Queens)
2. The firm Hirsch, Oelbaum, Bram, Hanover, & Lisker has been retained to provide audit and prepare year end statements. This will ensure proper security of all the Shadchan Project monies. Their reports will be of public record and will be made available upon request.
That’s nice. I was never concerned about the bookkeeping. I was concerned about the money.
Is the money in escrow? Who is the escrow agent?
Second tier names. No one on the Moetzes. No one even on deck.
I saw another long line that I wanted to get on. Dont know why.
But while I am here, I have to say AZ’s line, “Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, only the palestinians are entitled to their own set of facts,” is priceless.
AZ:
Is the program open to any and all shadchnim, professional, non-professional and part-time shadchanim, to join? Other than agreeing to the terms, what qualifications must the shadchan have to join? X number of succesful shidduchs? Other conditions? Please specify.
Thank You AZ, and awaiting your response.
Primary critereon for shadchan is the willingness to be able to accept quadruple or more than previously accepted norms in shadchanus gelt. Any shadchan willing to take that risk, should be able to get in!
Second tier names. No one on the Moetzes. No one even on deck.
(Nicer this time)
That’s because (IIRC) they are all Rabbonim of shuls (with the exception of Rav Kalman Epstein, who is Moshe Pagrow’s Rosh Yeshiva). Being the Rov of a Shul is an automatic disqualifier for the Moetzes. It also means that these Rabbonim see the problem, vs. Roshei Yeshiva (of boys!) who do not necessarily have contact with the girls that are affected by the crisis.
It is nicer this time.
“This program is endorsed by the following Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva”
Does this mean the general concept has been approved by the signatories or does it mean that each and every detail has been approved? EG, have the signatories approved of the age/dollar amounts used by the program?
Medium: To each their own….. as the saying goes, everyone is untitled to their own opinion, only the Palestinians (it seems) are entitled to their own set of facts…
Sounds like someone here needs a chill pill.
It is nicer this time.
Thanks. Am I allowed to say no. Sorry
Thanks. Am I allowed to say no. Sorry
OK. I’ll let that go, then 🙂
GAW – fine, replace moetzes with the nesius.
“This program is endorsed by the following Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva”
What happened to the other 61 or so Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva whose names appeared in the previous NASI ads when the original initiative was announced?
Rooskie:
It is open to full time/part time/dabbler shadchanim. The shadchanim also receive a contract that binds them to the rules of the program.
Prior to receiving a contract the shadchanim need to be approved by the program. This is done by the shadchanim sending in a reference of a well known rov or principal who is contacted to verify that the person is someone who can be trusted to join.
It’s not a question of how prolific a shadchan is, but rather this serves as a background check prior to sending out information on the participants.
APY: simply amazing….
First the complaint was why are there no names endorsing the program.
Now the complaint is why aren’t there 70 names endorsing the program.
I guess some people just like to complain…
First lets’ get some facts stratight (I assume you aren’t Palestinian 🙂
There was NEVER a NASI ad about any program with 70 R”Y names on it. There was a Kol Korei letter from 70 R”Y regarding the shidduch crisis and AGE GAP that didn’t mention anything about NASI nor anything about any specific program. For all anyone knows NASI wasn’t even involved in putting togetehr that letter.
That point notwithstanding…
The letter for 70 had a specific goal in mind and to that end the decision was made to have 70 R”Y sign the (historic) letter) It took well over 6 months to put together. The people involved in running this specifc program didn’t and don’t feel the need to have 70 R”Y endorse this specific program.
For the record, the people running and advising the program didn’t really care all that much about having any Rabbonim and R”Y’s names on the program in a public manner as is evident from their launching it without any names. It was simply done now for the benefit of the public to be more comfortable with the program.
If you feel that you need 70 names endorsing this program, then by all means don’t join.
As an aside there are numberous other Rabboinim and R”Y who were spoken to and endorsed the program and all the details, but for various reasons they dind’t want their name in print for reasons such as, they don’t want the hassle of people coming over to them to ask them about it, as a matter of policy they never sign or put their names on these kinds of things, they understnad that the initial reaction could cause discomfort to some young women as such althought they endorse the progarm they’d rather not have their name on it in a public manner. etc etc.
Apparently my response was not understood. I have nothing but the utmost respect for these rabbanim. I have had much interaction with at least two of them, and my immediate family is close to at least three others. My respect for their Torah knowledge and committment to their kehillos knows no limits!
My question was not about those rabbanim, but rather what happened to the other list of 70? Did AZ and Pogrow (if they’re not the same person) lose their phone numbers? (All except R’ SF Schustal, that is.) Earlier on in this debate we were assured that this had the approval of numerous top tier gedolim. R’ Shmuel Kamenetsky’s name was even attached in the comments. How come he won’t sign this? Where are the Lakewood roshei yeshiva or mashgiach? No one named Feinstein? R’ Ahron Schechter? R’ Aharon Feldman? I’d be more than happy to accept non moetzes names, if they are of the caliber that are Einei Ha’eida. How about R’ Elya Ber?
Do you think roshei yeshiva don’t understand girls’ needs? Don’t they have their own daughters and granddaughters? To insinuate that our highest level of gedolim don’t understand the needs of (the female) half of Klal Yisroel, is what is found on other websites, and should not be said on YeshivaWorld.
If one wants to implement an intiative that will drastically change the economics of the entire shidduchim process, then yes, you must get top tier gedolim, or you’ll be laughed at by the hamon am.
GAW – fine, replace moetzes with the nesius.
What is that? Do you have a list of official members?
Do you think roshei yeshiva don’t understand girls’ needs? Don’t they have their own daughters and granddaughters? To insinuate that our highest level of gedolim don’t understand the needs of (the female) half of Klal Yisroel, is what is found on other websites, and should not be said on YeshivaWorld.
Or they feel there are other conflicting priorities. Demolishing the age gap would ruin many Yeshivos (Beis Medrash pays in, Kollel pays out). Keeping Yeshivos open & strong is an extreme priority.
I was going to add something else but know it will be blocked. I’m sorry, but I can’t have a discussion with you regarding this when I can’t challenge your assumptions.
(I’ll try to be vague, feel free to delete from here out)
For example, my understanding is that at least one person on the Nasi list would have been in a position that is currently held by a Moetzes member if not for “the family” putting their own into the position. Others in the MOetzes have inherited their yeshivos, V’Hamavin Yovin. I’m not saying that they are not wonderful people & Tzaddikim, CV. I’m just saying that they don’t speak for many “Yeshivish” (Black hat, etc.) people. Their parents did, because they earned it.
Some would refer to the nesius as the on deck circle for the Moetzes.
Please AZ bechavod gadol, enlighten me. I am willing to throw money at this problem, although i am positive it is not the answer, nor do i know what you all want to do with all this money, and dont tell me operative costs. thats a joke. right here in this forum you have more advertising than Walmart!!, but if the money is only to get the shadchanim to pay more attention to my daughter,to that I say, they are paying attention to my daughter. and still no one gives a yes. the problem lies with the BOYS, or the yeshivos, or the mothers of boys.or how the system is orchestrated. Now, if you were asking me to put 11K $ in escrow and you would guarantee me a yes from a boy then i would say , sign me up. but for shadchanim to pay attention to my daughter for this exhorbitant fee is ludicrous. it will not solve anything, only make matters worse for all girls out there are suffering, even the thin, beautful, geshickt, meyuchasdik, wealthy 19 yr olds….
Midwesterner: Please see post above regrading the 70 R”Y.
(as a aside, the person who spoke to these Rabbonim and R”Y had very little involvement in getting in touch with the 70 R”Y who signed the letter from the 70 R”Y. In the letter from 70 R”Y he was involved in maybe a few names. Not that any of this is of any importance).
If you’d like to know what your rebbi thinks of the progama, go ask him. Jusk make sure he undersands how it works. Thats what i would do i wanted a opinion of my Rebbi.
Rc: no need to join if you’d rather not. The results either will be there or they won’t- time will tell.
Just one question: Your wrote –
“nor do i know what you all want to do with all this money,”
what money exactly are you reffering to?? The money that will go to the shadchan after a participant gets married, or the $500 for each girl who gets married (who was NOT part of the first 50 to join the list).
what exactly do you mean?
Do you think roshei yeshiva don’t understand girls’ needs? Don’t they have their own daughters and granddaughters? To insinuate that our highest level of gedolim don’t understand the needs of (the female) half of Klal Yisroel, is what is found on other websites, and should not be said on YeshivaWorld.
Or they feel there are other conflicting priorities. Demolishing the age gap would ruin many Yeshivos (Beis Medrash pays in, Kollel pays out). Keeping Yeshivos open & strong is an extreme priority.
I was going to add something else but know it will be blocked. I’m sorry, but I can’t have a discussion with you regarding this when I can’t challenge your assumptions.
(I’ll try to be vague, feel free to delete from here out)
My pleasure.
It is not a question of 9 signatures vs 70, as you made it out to be. It is the near total absence of all of those signers.
Back in October or November when this all started, AZ said over and over again that we have 70 people who already signed on to the earlier phase. Now when he can’t get 69 of them to sign on the one with dollar signs attached, even after months of challenges, he says that there is no connection between the two. One day when I have more time, I’ll dig up the posts and links. But you can’t have it both ways.
And you can bet a “30-year-old’s-fee” that I will contact people on your list. I have already reached out to one of them. Just haven’t gotten a response yet.
For the record, one of my roshei yeshiva was approached to sign as one of the original 70 and refused. He holds that girls should marry as close as possible to the spiritual high they are on when returning home from seminary in Israel. The longer they are back in America, the more their hashkafos get diluted. Remember they are not in Yeshiva like the bochurim. Most of them are out in the world, and being exposed to religiously compromising influences. So I can assure you, he does not hold of this one either.
Midwestern/APY:
If i can confuse you with some facts.
1. This didn’t all start in October. This all started 4+ years ago
2. The 70 R”Y never signed on to anything NASI did, many of them probably never even heard of NASI (certainly at the time that they signed the letter they hadn’t). In this very forum I repeatedly stated that NASI has NEVER said in any form or fashion that the letter from the 70 R”Y supports any specific action plan. All i have stated in the names of the 70 R”Y is exactly what they singed on to. If you’d like i’ll cut and paste the exact letter they signed on to.
Each person whose name appears on this letter was explained ALL the details of the program, EG ages, dollar amounts etc. Their questions were answered and they were asked if their name could appear in the manner it was.
Funniest thing is that on the first letter with 70 signators there were people who asked and what about this one, and what about that one….
You can believe or deny the following statment, but for the record regarding this program if there was interest in investing time there could have been tens and tens of names on this letter as well. However the people invovled in running this specific program saw very little need in doing so and had no interest in investing the 6 months that the last letter took.
If some ywcr members aren’t happy so be it…
If some ywcr members aren’t happy so be it…
If some ywcr members aren’t happy that other ywcr members aren’t happy so be it…
Is every Gadol in existence impressed with this plan, or even the majority of Gedolim in existence?
So you’ve come up with a list of Gedolim who ARE impressed. Nice.
Here is that letter from 70 R”Y. dated Aseres Yimei Teshiva 5770 (over two years ago)
(that was when it was published, it took well over many months to put together)
It is well known that our community finds itself in a dire situation in which hundreds of our daughters are getting older without having found their zivug. With the help of ?’ ??’ it has been recently revealed that the primary cause of this situation is that boys frequently prefer girls who are a few years younger than they. Since every year our population grows, ??? ??? ???, the result is that there are always more girls in need of a shidduch than there are available boys, leaving many girls without a match.
??? ????? ??? ????????
????? ??? ???? ??????
??? ???? ???? ??????????
??? ????? ????????
????? ????? ?’????????? ????
??? ????? ??????
????? ????? ????????
??? ????? ?????
??? ???? ????
??? ???? ????
??? ???? ??????
????? ????? ?’????????
??? ?? ??????
????? ??? ???? ?’????????
??? ???? ????
????? ???? ????
??? ????? ??????
????? ???? ????
??? ???? ????? ???????
????? ????? ?????? – ??????
??? ????? ??????
???? ????? ???????
??? ????? ??? ???? ???????
????? ??? ??????
??? ???? ???????
????? ??? ??? ???????
??? ?????? ????????
????? ????? ????? ???? ?’?????
??? ????? ????? ????????
????? ??? ????
??? ??? ?????
????? ???? ?????
??? ???? ??????
????? ??? ???? ?????????
??? ??? ???????
????? ??? ????
??? ???? ??????????
????? ??? ?????? ???????
??? ??? ????
????? ??? ????
??? ????? ????? ??????
????? ???? ????
??? ???’ ??? ???????
????? ????? ??? ???? ????????
??? ????’ ????
????? ????? ?????
??? ????? ???? ???
????? ??? ????
??? ????? ?????
??? ???? ????
??? ????? ????
????? ??? ???? ?????????
??? ????? ????
???? ???? ???? ???? ????
??? ???? ???? ?????????
????? ????? ?????????? ????
??? ????? ??? ????
????? ??? ?????
??? ???? ???? ???????
????? ?? ????? ???????
??? ????? ??? ???’ ??? ????
????? ????? ?’??????
??? ????? ??????
????? ????? ??? ?????
??? ???? ??????? ???? ???????????
????? ??? ????? ??????????
??? ???? ???????
????? ???? ?????
??? ????? ??????
????? ????? ????? ???? ?’?????
??? ??? ????? ??? ??????
??? ???? ????
??? ?????? ???? ??????
??? ???? ????
??? ????? ???? ????????
????? ??????? ?’???????
??? ???? ???????
????? ??? ????? ??????
??? ????? ???? ???
????? ??? ????
??? ???? ???? ??????????
????? ????? ?????? ?????
??? ??? ??? ?????
????? ??? ???????
??? ???? ????? ???’ ?????????
????? ??? ?????
??? ??? ??? ???? ??????
????? ??? ???? ?’?????
??? ???? ?????
????? ?? ????? ???????
??? ????? ??? ?????
????? ?? ????? ???????
??? ???? ?????
?????”? ???????????
??? ???? ????
????? ?????????
??? ????? ??? ??????
????? ????? ?’?????
??? ????? ????? ?????
????? ??? ?????
??? ???? ???? ??????
????? ???? ????? ?’??????????
??? ????? ???? ???? ???
??? ???? ?????? ?????
??? ???? ????
??? ????? ??????
????? ??????????
??? ???’ ?????
????? ??? ????? ???????
??? ???’ ???????
????? ????? ?’?????
??? ??? ???? ??????
????? ??? ?????
??? ???’ ???? ???????????
????? ??? ????
??? ????? ???????
????? ???? ????
??? ???’ ???? ??????
????? ??? ?????? ???????
??? ??? ??? ??????
??? ???? ????
??? ???? ?. ?????? ?????
????? ???? ?????
??? ???? ??? ???
????? ????? ???? ???? – ??????
??? ???? ?????
????? ??? ????????
??? ????? ???
????? ??????? ??? ????
??? ???? ??? ????
????? ???? ?????
??? ?????? ??????????
????? ???? ????
??? ??? ??? ?????
??? ???? ?’???????
??? ???? ???????
????? ??? ??? ???????
I join all the words of the above. Anyone who follows the advice of the ????? ????? in this???? will surely be ???? to find his ???? with ease.
???? ???? ????????
One who chooses a shidduch taking into account to help her and her family will be blessed with sons and sons-in-law who are Talmidei Chachamim. ???? ???? ???????
Medium: The people running and more importantly the people advising the program aren’t running for office.
As I wrote earlier, they really had zero plans and felt little need to do what was published in today’s papers. A decision was then made that perhaps there would be girls who would be helped and would feel more comfortable if they published a few names of well recognized rabbonim and R”Y who endorsed the program so they did it.
They didn’t do it because they felt any need to validate the program, and they certainly didn’t do it to make anyone in the YWCR happy.
With all the kol Korays floating around, I would sooner see our Gedolim issue a Kol Koray that ALL shadchanim must make a minimum number of successful shidduchim for older singles each year, in order to be aallowed to continue being recommended as Shadchanim for other people. Sounds crazy? No crazier than forcing already financially and emotionally stressed people to fork over much more hard cash than they might have, in order to bribe those shadchanim to accomplish the same result.
Oomis,
The program isn’t mandatory.
Az you still have not addressed my issue, which is we need yes es from guys! not attention from shadchanim Once you put this “bait” in front of them, just imagine whats goign to go on!! if it wasnt bad until now. you ask for a blonde tall out of towner who is in college, and you get a chasidishe lifer from williamsburg, cuz thats what she has in her inventory!!! so she sells you that. !! now for this ludicrous incentive she is REALLY gonna sell whats in her inventory. The problem is her inventory not her sales ability!!!! Wouldnt the money be better spent as an incentive to either boys, yeshivos (to compensate for them losing their bachurim early) or mothers of boys (which is where the REAL problem lies)
DY:
In all fairness, there are possibly halachic Nafkei Mina created by this program, such as expected Shaddchanus now being done by age. Ask your LOR for Halacha L’Maase.
Or they feel there are other conflicting priorities. Demolishing the age gap would ruin many Yeshivos (Beis Medrash pays in, Kollel pays out). Keeping Yeshivos open & strong is an extreme priority.
Why do we allow comments like this?
oomis, I love it!!!!!
But perhaps use the criteria of number of dates, because one can work tirelessly for months and not make one successful Shidduch. Thats in G-d’s hands.
Id like to know if even ONE of the undersigned’s daughters plan to fork over many thousands to be on a list.
Oy oy, how many are gone is just a 2 short years!! R Nosson Tzvi, R Chaim, maybe one or two others!!
So bottom line is that we have 70 gedolim signing on some generic letter saying we’ve got to take care of our daughters. People should not feel stigmatized by going out with someone close in age. Shadchanim should work for older girls and not just take the easy route with the 19 year olds.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the new game changing initiative, or whatever they’re calling it this week. That is something cooked up by some individuals and an auditing firm, and after 3 months, has the haskama of 2 of the unrelated 70, and 7 other shul rabbanim. Quadrupling and more of shadchanus fees, plus demanding that it be paid up front to even get your name on the list, does NOT have the blessing of Gedolei Yisroel!! Any comment by AZ or anyone else insinuating that it does is false.
That is the position as stated in Nasi’s unofficial press releases through the coffeeroom and their designated commenter here. Please everyone wait three weeks, and the uproar will cause a further update in Nasi’s unofficial positions to be once again released in a press release to the CR.
Poppa. we allow comments like that cuz its the most sensible point made so far. Yeshivos are not going to let go of their 20/21/22 yr olds and thats what needs to happen to put more eligable boys into the pool.
part of the money should be a kickback to the boy. If you say yes to working with our shadchanim (exvlusively lets say) you get a kickback…
Nafkei Mina
Nice term.
I highly doubt it will – shadchanus in halacha is determined by locale, not age.
rc: ever wonder why young women have such difficulty gettng yesses from guys
ever wonder why the NASI Project decided to launch such a “controversial” program. (remeber they aren’t shadchanim and don’t stand to benefit from the “outrageous” numbers being “demanded”).
Best way to get yesses for girls is by evening out the numbers of boys/girls dating.
One effectvie way of doing so is by having shadchanim focus their attention on girls who didn’t JUST start dating….
as an aside, if you would like to start anothe program, by ALL means- GO FOR IT!
no one claims to have a monopoly on attempting to alleviate the terrible situation we presently find ourselves in.
If you want to know why the NASI Project choose the programs it did, and not your suggestions, i’m sure if you contact them they’ll explain it.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.