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I’m not here to bash Chabad.
I would like to hear from people within Chabad or those aware of how Chabad youth are being affected by the drive to establish Chabad Houses on every far flung island in the world.
Can a Frum child be raised with no Frum friends to play with? Can a young mesivta bachur remain emotionally stable living thousands of miles away from his family? I understand that Chabad has online Chadarim for the children of Shluchim, does that replace in person interaction with a classmate?
Is there a point where we say the price of kiruv is too high?
Especially, when the goals of kiruv have dropped dramatically in recent decades, should the FFB child’s emotional/spiritual health be sacrificed for low-return kiruv?
I’m not referring to Kiruv in major Jewish cities, I’m focusing on the locations very far away from a functioning Frum community.
What effect is this having on the 100’s of Frum children living far from relatives, far from organized Yiddishkeit.not here to bash Chabad but their goal has never been outreach although outreach has always been a positive sideffect… they’ve always wanted to do ufaratza as a means of speeding the geula. now if that is the prime goal then it is worth it if it not it is not. just know to understand the others POV and then you’ll know why he acts the way he does.
A valid question.
The simple answer is (based only on my personal observation), that on average, the children of shluchim turn out better than children who grew up in frum communities.
Why is this the case? I can only assume that when a child grows up seeing his parents dedicate their entire life (literally) to Yidishkeit, that is more effective for the childs Chinuch than anything he can gain from growing up in a frum community.
(This does not mean that such a lifestyle does not come with it’s unique challenges. But the ultimate outcome has a higher success rate)I stopped caring about Chabad, when they decided
that a certain Rabbi who died in 1994 CE
is [allegedly] the Melech HaMashiach.What bothers me the most about this tragic situation
is NOT that they made a mistake.
On the contrary, ALL people make mistakes.What bothers me the most about this tragic situation
is that THEY REFUSE TO STOP,
because THEY DO NOT KNOW WHEN TO STOP.What bothers me the most about this tragic situation
is that THEY REFUSE TO LISTEN,
even though many intelligent people tried to correct their mistake.What bothers me the most about this tragic situation
is the many thousands of Useful Idiots,
who always defend Chabad, because they
do not understand that it is possible to
appreciate Chabad’s chesed, while at the same time,
objecting to their false Melech HaMashiach.I think there is a very serious issue here. I myself have witnessed unusual situations being hosted at isolated Chabad houses in the US. It got to a point that I thought better to be by myself.
Haimy, I think you are right, but do we do with “one who saves one person, saves the whole world”?
I think it is possible to raise a kid with just his family and online chevra. I talked with one rav who went to a far-flung place some decades ago but could not stay there for a long time. He said that he was in shluchim homes in such places now with online schools and the kids seem to be doing fine. It may be things are more challenging in mid-sized towns where kids of shluchim get involved with other Jewish kids, including other chabadnikim, and many are not doing well.
Chabad is sacrificing their youth and the adults too.
To Haimy
I think the premise of your question is incorrect. Chabad’s goal is not Kiruv, it’s global domination. I’ll offer three proofs. Not long after Lubavich tots leave the cradle they’re taught the following song, “From 770 we are marching out, on to victory there is no doubt, one by one nations we are conquering.” Point two, about ten years ago I spoke to Dr. Berger, and he told me that the Rebbe often spoke about taking over the world. Final proof. About 15 years ago I attended the Jewish National Retreat. This is Chabad’s annual convention. It was held that year in Fairfax VA, right near Washington DC and so Rabbi Levi Shemtov. On Thursday night he spoke, “People think that we’re a Kiruv organization but they have no idea of our power. The Ambassador from Bahrain to America is Jewish and Chabad has already made contact with her.” I was laughing to myself because the Ambassador was my wife’s distant cousin. She was replaced some years ago. Your question then should be, “Is Chabad sacrificing their youth in the quest to rule the world?” And the answer is a resounding yes. About 20 years ago a Chabad Rabbi told me, “The Rebbe is the reason the world was created.” This is their worldview and so the individuals are essentially irrelevant. Chabad, as it presently operates, was formulated in the Soviet Union and it has the same basic philosophy. Everyone and everything were subservient to Mother Russia, everyone and everything is subservient to the Rebbe.
If you are seriously interested in hearing what the Shluchim themselves have to say about this, you should ask them… Almost every Shaliach has some sort of website with a public email address. There are also Chabad websites and online discussion groups. I don’t see a lot of Chabad Shluchim in this “coffee room”…
As far as your questions themselves:
“Can a Frum child be raised with no Frum friends to play with? Can a young mesivta bachur remain emotionally stable living thousands of miles away from his family?”
There are many people out there who do this, especially the second item, for far more mundane reasons. Seeing as a large portion of the children of Shluchim become Shluchim themselves, and Shlichus often runs in the family, the “young mesivta bochur” may have cousins etc. together with him in his dorm Yeshiva. Add to that the fact that these children are raised with a very strong ideological commitment to what they and their parents are doing, and they see their parents’ mesirus nefesh day in and day out, and that itself is an awesomely powerful chinuch by example. The children themselves grow up as little Shluchim teaching the other local kids.
“Especially, when the goals of kiruv have dropped dramatically in recent decades, should the FFB child’s emotional/spiritual health be sacrificed for low-return kiruv?”
Using business language when referring to Yiddishe Neshamos, ROI, sacrificing for gains, etc., is never a good idea. That certainly isn’t how Chabad look at it, but really anyone involved it outreach can also tell you the same thing. There is no heter to sacrifice one Neshama for another (indeed there are those who eschew any amount of outreach for that reason…), but there also is no such thing as “low-return kiruv”. One Jew doing one Mitzvah for one minute = יפה שעה אחת בתשובה ומעשים טובים בעולם הזה מכל חיי העולם הבא. That’s Pirkei Avos, not Chassidus. I’m sure they could tell you even more on this subject.
“I’m not referring to Kiruv in major Jewish cities, I’m focusing on the locations very far away from a functioning Frum community.”
Both things could be true at the same time. What about a major Russian city in Siberia with 10,000 Jews whose only connection to Judaism is through Chabad. The shlichim run the shul, Talmud Torah, all Jewish everything. Work around the clock, often more than one family involved. But very few if any local kids on their level of Jewish observance, at least for now. What about the same scenario right in hinterlands of the USA, but hours by car or possibly by plane from the nearest “normal” Frum community?
There is a beautiful series of children’s books (I got it for my kids in Hebrew, but I believe it is available in English also) about the life of the children of Chabad Shluchim in all kinds of far out places. Last I checked they have 10 books, with titles like “Moishie from Japan”, “Chanie from Wyoming”, “Mendy from Siberia”, etc. There are also a number of books from Shluchim who wrote memoirs of their experiences, some in Hebrew and some in English.
I would also like to here from the Chabad Shluchim on this. But while we’re waiting…. I’ve heard a chabad shaliach interviewed on this subject (on Headlines Podcast) and the gist of it was that a chabad shaliach is a “man on a mission” and the family is part of that mission, so the family has a completely different worldview and sense of mission than you might imagine which makes is feasible for them to live this lifestyle. But please, chabad sheluchim – the ones out “Aspamia” – what can you share about this…?
“Is Chabad sacrificing their youth in the quest to rule the world?” And the answer is a resounding yes….”
Now that Participant has confirmed the centuries-old mantra of Anti-Semites (aka the jews seek to control the world), perhaps he/she can tell us how we can exercise that power to extinguish anti-semitism, and reunite all the various factions of chassidish ,Litvish and possibly even Sephardishe yidden into one hashkafah with no sinas chinam.
To SQUARE_ROOT
I understand your frustration, but the reality is that no Lubavicher can be reached. I found a card in the Chabad shul I attend. Let me share what was written on it, “We must publicize to all people of the generation that we have merited that G-d Alm-ighty has chosen and appointed a man, a person possessing free choice … to be “your judges” and “your advisors” as well as the prophet of the generation… This includes publicizing the main prophecy, the prophecy of “immediately to redemption” and at this very moment “Behold this one (Moshiach) comes.” (Shabbos Parshas Shoftim 5750). Yaakov Yosef A is one of those useful idiots that you mentioned. In a different thread he explained that he defended Chabad because his late Rebbe held of the Rebbe. I am certain that neither his Rebbe nor any Admor or Rosh Yeshiva would countenance the notion of the Rebbe being a Novi. As you, and many others including myself, have noted, Chabad does much good and their efforts deserve to be praised and encouraged. On the other hand, their belief system is totally at odds with normative Judaism. As Rabbi Ahron Feldman, a leading Gadol said, one of Chabad’s leading Rabbis, Manis Friedman is a Kofer for having publicly declared that no Jew will be punished no matter what sin(s) he commits. When this point was introduced in a different thread YYA said that Rabbi Feldman should’ve called Manis to find out what he meant. When Mandani says that we have to globalize the intifada, we know what he means. Just like the Lubavichers, their useful idiots refuse to be swayed, even when the truth stares them in the face.
Rav yaakov kaminetski is widely quoted characterizing habad as similar to the para aduma
both are metaher temeim and metame tehorim
this was way before the mashiach madness started to be included in the yafutsu ‘shturem’ ….
both the subject of this thread and the shitat chinuch of habad are probably included in his quote ….
.
.This question could have been asked 20 years ago. At this point in time, there are many people who are already healthy adults – both mentally and spiritually – who grew up in such places, so time has already proven that this is not really a question.
Side point: Nobody went on shlichus “so that businessmen on a trip to the Far East shouldn’t need to live on tuna cans”Chabad Shluchim have a function. I doubt anyone on here would disagree, if you put aside the specifics of motives and emphasis. It’s not a bad thing to have Jewish religious outposts across the world. (Granted, this is my assumption. If anyone disagrees with the intrinsic concept, please explain why.)
The motives that people question, notably their Messianism, is a fair question. I’m not Chabad, nor do I believe the Rebbe had any divine or supernatural powers; just dedication and effort. But Chabad’s focus is around Moshiach, much more than any other Jewish group. And because of their attitude that any and every individual has the potential to bring Moshiach, they are willing to work a lot harder toward that.
What if you removed the Messianism? By this, I’m talking about their emphasis on Moshiach, regardless of whether an individual believes that’s the Rebbe or undetermined. If you remove their Ahavas Yisrael and willingness to do things like move to the middle of nowhere to this end, would you still have this dedication?
Chabad’s messianism and outreach cannot be separated. You’d need to speak to someone who is more ensconced in Chabad than myself to measure the extent of what Chabad shluchim should risk. Just putting this out there to say their emphasis on Moshiach is not just superficial.Haimy said – “Why don’t I email a Chabad house in a remote location & ask them how it affects their children? I don’t expect to get a realistic answer. They may not realize how they are affecting themselves & their children.”
Why not try? And if you don’t trust what a Lubavitcher says, so why did you invite “people within Chabad” to share their thoughts. What even is the point of starting this thread in the first place? Do you expect any of us to have better answers than they do?
לגופו של ענין, Shlichus has been going on for decades, including in isolated places. Many of the new Shluchim couples starting out are children or even grandchildren of Shluchim. So why do you assume that “they may not realize how they are affecting themselves & their children”? Collectively, they definitely have had time to see things in hindsight. As everyone knows, there is an annual convention of Shluchim, where they meet and discuss, among other things, how to deal with exactly these issues. There is also a less well known, but equally important “Shluchot” convention, where “home front” issues are even more central to the conversation.
Haimy – “I don’t know if the Rebba ever encouraged Chassidim to move to a desolate Non Jewish city & open a Krechma as in olden times.”
“” – “Should a Jew sacrifice living in a Frum community so that businessmen on a trip to the Far East shouldn’t need to live on tuna cans & the non religious Israeli visitor will put on Tefillin? I don’t understand that.”
Then you really don’t know a lot about Chabad in general, and Shlichus in particular. I heard a Shlichus story from my Rebbe (not Chabad). There was a Shaliach in Honolulu, Hawaii, already during the Rebbe’s lifetime. Not exactly a thriving Frum community. At a meeting with the Lubavitcher Rebbe the Shaliach expressed his frustration at the small number of people he was able to reach (back then) and the low “ROI” so to speak. The Rebbe told him “If you can offer a can of Cola to one Yid and get him to say a Bracha, that already is worth sitting there in Hawaii.”
The Rebbe also famously promised that he takes personal responsibility for the children of the Shluchim. (I.e., with regard to the issues you raised…) If you don’t believe in that, so fine, don’t be a Shaliach yourself… But they most definitely do believe. Since many of their kids, sometimes ALL their kids, themselves become Shluchim, it seems the recipe works. A few years ago I saw an article about an older Shliach who passed away, and some 11 (IIRC) kids flew in from all corners of the Earth (representing most of the World’s inhabited time zones) to sit Shiva together.
Lots of people do difficult things for things they believe in, which often seems to make no sense to people who don’t share those beliefs. This reminds me of the tongue-clucking posts every year about Chassidim who travel to Uman for Rosh Hashanah (or even just to be with a Rebbe in a different city) and the commenter feels so sorry for the “poor” wife who is “abandoned”. Forgetting, of course, that the wife (and daughters/small sons) left at home share the same beliefs and ideals of their husband/father, and are more than happy to share in the zechus. If you don’t get it, you don’t have to do it. But for those who do get it, the difficulties involved are part of the Avodas Hashem itself, whether in Shlichus, Chessed, travel to Tzadikkim, or anything else. For someone who doesn’t believe in what he’s doing, no difficulty is worth overcoming, to the extent that someone does believe, to that extent the difficulties don’t stop him.
Qwerty – There is no need for you to regurgitate your hate for Chabad (which includes comparisons to Nazis and Communists that got previous threads closed by the moderators) that has nothing to do with the opening question of this thread. Not every thread that mentions Chabad needs to become a soapbox for you to stand on and repeat the same old tropes.
most Frum kids need to interact in person with other Frum kids their age.
What’s the factual basis for that opinion?
With modern technology, remote interaction is readily available.
In my experience, physical separation from other observant Jews makes one more conscious of observance, not less. You can’t simply “follow the herd”. You have to make a deliberate effort to be observant.
If anything it empowers their youth. The rebbe said a shliach is never alone. They have a global school network. Generally the boys go to chabad yeshivas out of town when they go to Mesivta. They have a mesorah going back 8 generations. They are doing something right. The Yeshiva world if you’re not following the script exactly you find yourself even more alone.
Haimy – “The fact the one couple of Shluchim produce 10 more shluchim is no proof of emotional health or religious well-being.”
The “one couple” is a cute anecdote. The reality is that there are many, many more, and this has been going on for long enough that it isn’t a mystery to anyone who wants to find out. I never understood the fear critics of Chabad (or other groups) have of talking directly to the people they supposedly are so “worried about”. There are almost 6,500 registered Shluchim worldwide. Many of them are stationed in isolated locations. There is an online directory at Chabad.org with details and contact information of almost all of them. You can’t find ANYONE there you are willing to trust? So then, what do you want from them?
It has been noted that Frum children who for whatever reason grow up in a place with few other Frum people, and particularly children of outreach workers (of all kinds, not just Chabad), actually do BETTER and have a lower OTD rate than “regular” FFB children, which is usually attributed to the reasons others have already mentioned – the need to be proactive Jewishly, and the sense of mission, which are very healthy things for Chinuch.
Right, is it a given that kids need to be in company of similar age kids, so that they learn things from each other? The class based learning is simply to enable teachers to say a lecture to multiple students at the same time. Something that technology already solved. Maybe a kid can benefit more from being around mature adults plus siblings?
To chiefshmerel
Your post reminds me of a story I read many years ago. (if memory serves it involved the Chasam Sofer.) A local priest took a little Christian boy and taught him the basics of Yiddishkeit and how to daven in Hebrew. He then brought the boy for a “farher” to the Chasam Sofer. The Gaon was duly impressed and commented, “If the boy was Jewish, he would have a great future.” The galach asked the Chasam Sofer how he knew that the boy wasn’t Jewish and the Gadol answered, “He davened so fervently but there wasn’t even one shuckel.” You state that Chabad is devoted to Messianism. That’s not exactly true. They’re devoted to Rebbianism. They would never accept any Moshiach except the Rebbe. As I wrote in an earlier post, they have been brainwashed into believing that Schneersohn is Moshiach.
To Haimy
I know you mean well, but Lubavichers are not rational functioning human beings. I’ll share a story that came out from the recent Kinus Shluchim. A shliach in Israel had a two-year-old son whose legs were amputated due to an illness (this happened about ten years ago). He and his wife were plunged into a deep depression, as would be expected. A local psychologist offered to treat them for free, but they refused saying, “Our entire existence depends on the Rebbe. He gives us our strength and we’ll get through this.” They are idolaters so there’s no point in offering logical advice.
To the group
On Nov 23, 2025 YYA wrote to Haimy, “If you’re seriously interested in hearing what the Shluchim themselves have to say about this you should ask them.” Sounds logical right? But not so fast. Several months ago YYA wrote, in a different thread that he can answer all the challenges to Chabad, but he decided against it. Yankel berel and non-political, who are on very good terms with this cretin, politely asked him to respond but he adamantly refused. So we make a Kal Vchomer, “If YYA, who isn’t Chabad refused to discuss the matter because he knew that he couldn’t defend Chabad’s idolatry and Kefirah, will an actual Lubavicher give any honest answers?” Unfortunately YYA won’t understand my argument because only someone who learns Gemara would be familiar with the concept of Kal Vchomer and clearly he spends all his time on YWN writing drivel.
To Haimy
A few weeks ago, a Lubavich boy who’s the son of shluchim in Korea killed himself. There’s obviously a problem but Chabad sweeps all its bad publicity under the rug.
Many empirical reports in the aftermath of Covid showed how damaging it is for children to live in social isolation.
But children of Shluchim don’t live in social isolation. There’s no rule that says they can’t associate with non-frum or non-Jewish children. Playing with other children is not going to make them OTD. If they get confused about other children’s behavior or beliefs, their parents and older siblings can set them straight.
qwerty,
No question that Chabad has issues but so does every other Jewish demographic and they all have what to be proud of.
When a (not Lubavtich) chasid recently lost his tallis bag in Fort Lauderdale airport and it was discarded, who did he call for help? The local shliach, who contacted Waste Management and helped organize a dumpster dive to retrieve it.
When a well-known Yeshiva family tragically lost a loved one after dropping off a family member at the airport for a flight to Israel, who met the traveler at a European airport for an emergency flight back to the U.S.? The local shliach, who spent hours comforting and providing for the person.
There are untold stories so Chabad shouldn’t be singled out for criticism.
Haimy on empirical studies –
you have to be careful extrapolating statistics from average population with 1.5 kids per family where parents are not involved with kids and kids watch whatever they want online with, byh, large families with dedicated families.Just a practical thing – many families got a chance to discontinue medications that schools required kids to take and the kids had a chance to learn how to function on their own. Not all families used that chance, of course. Some doubled down so that kids do not bother them too much.
In the 1990s (or maybe the early 2000s), I used facts and logic
to persuade a Chabad person that Rabbi Schneerson
was NOT the Melech HaMashiach.This Chabad person was one of the worst meshichists;
he was a missionary for meshichism and an Elokist.
His email address was [email protected].Persuading him to abandon meshichism and Chabad,
while remaining an observant Jew,
was one of my greatest accomplishments —
not just for that year, but for my entire lifetime.Huh? is there no issur of hichabris lreshoyim in pasikim, chazal, and poskim? Are there not numerous takunehs chazal such as yayin nesech and yichid that are with the specific explicit intent to keep us away from socializing with non-jews?
I don’t know if playing with “other” children will make someone OTD, but choosing to do so itself is OTD.
That being said, there are coutering values in psak that might allow – at least as a limid schis – for shelichim to live alone in sedom, but that conversation certainly does NOT start with the lie that “There’s no rule” otherwise.
To GadolHadolfi
Before I respond to your post, I’d like to ask you a question, “Why did you address your comment to me? SQUARE-ROOT, Philosopher and Yankel Berel, to name three, and there are others, see eye to eye with me. We all agree that Chabad is an idolatrous religion, that Manis Friedman is a Kofer and that the idea that the Rebbe was a Novi or Moshiach is preposterous. Now as for what you wrote. I certainly agree that Chabad does much good. I have been consistent in praising them for these services. However, I would be remiss not to bring it to the attention of the public that the Chabad religion is not a valid expression of Judaism. Again, please answer my question. But since I know you won’t, Checkmate.
To SQUARE_ROOT
I would love to hear the story. Please share it. You never know, maybe YYA will convert to Judaism. Actually, that won’t happen. Shlomo Hamelech already warned us about that Chabad shill, “There’s more hope for a fool than one who’s wise in his own eyes.”
To Yaakov Yosef A
On November 24th you wrote, “The Rebbe also famously promised that he takes personal responsibility for the children of the Shluchim.” Is that promise still in effect now that he’s six feet under? Schneersohn “prophesied” that Moshiach will arrive in “this” generation. Since more than a generation passed can he ask for backsies? Waiting for your answer but since none will be forthcoming let me give you a Thanksgiving checkmate. By the way, why haven’t you chosen a new Rebbe since your first one died? Checkmate sheini
Qwerty – Anyone who wants can search through my comments and yours and decide for himself. I never compared anyone (much less a Rov or Rebbe of any kind) to… (unmentionable, and provoked a rare intervention by the moderators.) There is no point talking to you (or to anyone else with you around) about Chabad, because you clearly have made up your mind and have no interest in sincere or even civilized discussion of this subject.
With regard to the bochur who nebech committed suicide ר״ל, unfortunately I have heard of several “Litvaks” who also committed suicide, and also other Frum Jews. Mental illness doesn’t discriminate by group affiliation. It is also customary among all observant Jews to not make a lot of noise out of such very rare occurrences, out of respect for the feelings and the kovod of the family. Most people are capable of understanding these things on their own.
Baruch Hashem, I learn Gemara every day all my life. The Lubavitcher Rebbe learned vastly more than I did, and maybe even more than you… “Haimy” apparently does not consider Chabad to be “idolaters” and “kofrim” ר״ל, so I don’t understand why he is afraid to talk you any one of the 6500 Shluchim and ask them his questions directly. He didn’t ask about their beliefs, just about the practical aspects of the challenges they deal with, which frankly is quite interesting to most people. No one is expecting you to change your opinion of Chabad, don’t worry.
Rabbi Avigdor Miller ZTL ZYA once gave a public lecture
in which he strongly recommended AGAINST Orthodox Jews
moving from places like New York City
to far-away places that have only a few Jews.If I remember correctly, he applied the pasuk “Rechaikecha Yobaidu”
(those who go far from You will become lost) to those people.Everything I just said is from memory.
Right now, I do not have the time to find the sources. Sorry about that!To Yaakov Yosef A
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. I know exactly what I said and I stand behind it. The Rebbe’s and now Chabad’s true goal by spreading around the world is not Kiruv, it’s world domination. That’s not my opinion, it was told to me directly by Dr. Berger, who unlike you, is a mensch and his word is reliable. Moreover, we have the proof from the fact that every Lubavicher is taught that song in the cradle that Chabad will conquer the nations of the world one by one. Now it’s a free country and you don’t have to accept my proofs but don’t try to depict me as crazy, when all my Rabbonim. and unlike you, my Rabbis are alive, agree with me. As for your second point, it’s certainly true that mental illness is found in any denomination, and I probably shouldn’t have mentioned it. Unlike you, if I make a mistake, I will admit it. It’s the third point that I want to focus on. You said, “There’s no point talking to you (or anyone else with you around) about Chabad.” Several months ago, non-political and yankel berel politely asked you to discuss the issues that were raised about Chabad. You stated that you’re quite capable of doing so but you choose not to. I then chimed in and said that I would stand down and not comment if you’ll answer them. Again, you refused. So, I’ll repeat my offer. If, as you’re saying today (which of course you’ll change tomorrow) the only reason you refuse to discuss Chabad is because of my intransigence, I will stay out of the discussion. My name is also Yaakov, but the truth means everything to me so if I make a statement, I will definitely keep my word. Unlike you and Chabad I fear Hashem. Just as a reminder, you were asked if you agree with Chabad that the Rebbe is Moshiach, is a Novi and runs the world? Since we both know you won’t answer, checkmate you turkey.
qwerty,
While I meant it for the others also, I specifically addressed my comment to you since you’re the most strident. “Chabad’s goal is not Kiruv, it’s global domination” – dude, seriously?
Maybe the best things each of us can do is to think how to alleviate this problem. Grab your kids and go visit such chabad family and help them out for a week or two and let your kids socialize with their kids, and then stay in touch remotely, and then visit once in a while and maybe invite kids to visit your community. “Adopt a chabad”.
Maybe this is how the isolationist community can participate in the outreach activities – by assisting the outreachers without exposing themselves to the dangers of the world out there.
A] This extreme, [although positive], emphasis on low benefit kiruv is singularly held by habad from 1950 and onwards
the price prepared to be paid for this, is unmatched , not to be found anywhere else in Judaism , ever.
B] the extreme emphasis on mashiach and his specific identity is equally singularly held by habad from 1950 and onwards
this emphasis is equally unmatched , not to be found anywhere else in Judaism , ever.
—the pivotal question is – are A and B related ?
or do they only happen to coincide ?
—
I do not have a clear answer .
nor do I have clear proof .
but it is homer lamachshava …..
.
.
.Qwerty – You wrote a few weeks ago that “you care about your fellow Jews more than any Lubavitcher, because you care about their Ruchniyus, not just their Gashmiyus”. (Leaving aside the Kashes that can be asked on that statement…) To which I responded, that you should then find some place on this planet where Chabad didn’t go yet, because they don’t care enough about their fellow Jews, and you should go there and open a “Qwerty House”. I am still waiting to hear where and when the first “Qwerty House” will be celebrating a Chanukas Habayis. You could do all of the amazing stuff Chabad Shluchim do to help Yidden ברוחניות ובגשמיות, and additionally you could teach them your pure Qwerty Hashkafah. If and when you do make a Chanukas Habayis, please invite me and Yankel Berel.
Wishing you all the best.
There are currently living Gedolei Yisroel who DO hold of the Lubavitcher Rebbe as a Tzadik, and who do hold of the Shluchim in a major way. Anyone who chooses to follow those Gedolim does not have to care about what nameless and faceless posters on social media think about that.
To Gadol Hadofi
Thanks for responding. You said that you chose me because I’m the most stridently anti-Chabad. That’s probably true. But then you quoted me, “Chabad’s goal isn’t Kiruv, it’s global domination.” – dude, seriously? Apparently, you think I’m off kilter. Did you not see my proofs for this contention? Rabbi Moshe Plutchok, perhaps the ilui of this generation told me, “The Rebbe’s gaavah was so enormous that he convinced himself he’s god.” Please tell me which of my proofs you don’t accept. Just because I make “outlandish” statements, according to some, doesn’t mean that I’m wrong.
To Yaakov Yosef A
You have every right to ignore the nameless, faceless posters on social media and follow the “useful idiots” you call Gedolim. However, by refusing to answer the questions posed to you, you demonstrate your cowardice and duplicity. I’m sure you thought of playing the “Chabad has a few crazies in Tzfat” card but decided against it because you knew I’d hit you with Manis Friedman who’s a mainstream Chabad Kofer. As for your comment that I should open some equivalent of a Chabad House to “prove” that I care about my fellow Jews. Who said that Chabad Houses serve any real Kiruv function? What they do, and it’s a valuable service, is provide kosher food for travelers and sometimes Minyanim. Coming to the city today I was learning Gemara on the train as is my wont. A fellow saw me and started up a conversation. He asked me if I’m learning Daf Yomi and I told him that I’m not a fan of Daf Yomi because it moves too fast. He told me that he agreed and we exchanged contact information. That’s my idea of Kiruv, but of course you can disagree. Obviously, I could care less what a liar like you says.
it is clear that habad post 1950 , operates on a so called ‘missionary’ basis
in addition, converting the unsuspecting into blind believers in their leader is at the forefront of their efforts
this one of the main reasons why they are controversial
all their other positive qualities should be irrelevant when we encounter their blind missionizing
we should call it out without fear or favor
because we are not chvsh sitting in judgement on the totality of habad
something which we anyway are totally unqualified to do
besides the very important principle
of fix yourself up before fixing others
but then again – that does not mean we should just silently agree with all the drivel
people are trying to pass as normative judaism ….
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.The words “low benefit kiruv” hurt me, because I am only frum today because a Lubavitcher Chassid was Mekarev my grandfather in 1960. Am I a low benefit?
Yedl – “The words “low benefit kiruv” hurt me, because I am only frum today because a Lubavitcher Chassid was Mekarev my grandfather in 1960. Am I a low benefit?”
Reb Yedl, many (not all, or even most) of the people here aren’t interested in sincere and meaningful discussion. They want a “rage room” where they can vent their steam without revealing their real identity and therefore with no consequences. The “problem” is they understand that isn’t so Kosher, so the “solution” is to find some שעיר לעזאזל who is “יוצא מכלל עמיתך” according to them, and therefore “fair game” for Lashon Hara, Onaas Devorim, etc. The three most popular choices are “Zionists”, “Neturei Karta”, or Lubavitch. (Not that I equate the three groups.) It has nothing to do with you, and not much to do with them either.
To Yedl
I think you misunderstood what Haimy was saying. He tried to make it clear that he wasn’t equating all Chabad houses, rather he was speaking of those centers that are in far-flung places. Let’s explain. If someone is a Shliach anywhere in Israel, as an example, he will have ample opportunities for Kiruv since every secular Israeli is a viable candidate for Kiruv. Similarly, there are cities which are major hubs for Jews, e.g Chicago, Paris etc where there is a large Jewish population base to work from. Haimy agrees that there’s no issue with Chabad operating in those places. The question arises in countries like Korea, Malaysia Phillipines etc, where there are no Jews except an occasional traveler or someone who has seasonal work. Or in cities like Cheyenne Wyoming. Anchorage Alaska where the only Jews there are intermarried. So, they’ll come to the Chanukah party with their gentile spouse but a week later they’ll go to the X-Mas party. Again, Kiruv really isn’t possible in those places. But that doesn’t matter to Chabad because their real goal is “global domination.” as I’ve explained. As for your grandfather, Chabad was different at that time. It was seriously interested in Kiruv, but things have changed.
To yankel berel
I hope you now appreciate how deceitful YYA is. Rather than engage in honest discussion, he attacks us as being unwilling to talk. He better hope that the Kofer Manis Friedman is right and Hashem no longer punishes, because the G-d I believe in doesn’t like liars.
Yedl – אין הכי נמי, there is never such a thing as “low benefit kiruv”. Neshamos are not dollars and anyone who thinks of kiruv in terms of ROI/bottom-line calculations doesn’t begin to understand what it means to bring a חלק אלוק ממעל back to the Ribbono Shel Olam. That’s before you even start factoring in זרעו וזרע זרעו עד סוף כל הדורות. Truly mind boggling.
Rav Avigdor Miller זצ״ל, attributed his entire course in life and everything he accomplished, to a Lubavitcher Chossid who was his private Rebbi as a teenager in Baltimore in the 1920’s, who instilled in him love for learning Gemara and convinced him to continue his Jewish education in Yeshivah Gedolah, something very unusual in America back then.
“The question arises in countries like Korea, Malaysia Phillipines etc, where there are no Jews except an occasional traveler or someone who has seasonal work.”
There are huge numbers of Israeli tourists who travel to all kinds of nutty places, especially in the Far East, and very often are more open to investigating Yiddishkeit there than they are at home. Down the block from me lives a (now Chassidish, not Chabad) family, from a very secular background, who became Baalei Teshuva thanks to Chabad of Bangkok. The Chabad house of Hoi An, Vietnam (just down the road from Da Nang…) hosts an average of 250 Israelis every Shabbos. Chabad of Wyoming is located in Jackson Hole, not Cheyenne, and there is actually a book published about what they do. There is also a book published by the Shaliach in Anchorage, Alaska with mind-boggling stories of Kiruv and Chessed, including traveling with a plane than can land on ice to do Brissim in towns north of the Arctic Circle.
But hey, Qwerty knows best – “Kiruv really isn’t possible in those places”. As if he tried.
“As for your grandfather, Chabad was different at that time. It was seriously interested in Kiruv, but things have changed.”
First of all, the קפידה was on the “low return” part. Was one Neshoma worth more in 1960 than it is worth today. Secondly, “at that time” was in 1960. Almost ten years after the last Rebbe זצ״ל accepted leadership of Chabad. The main sichos used to try to present Chabad as Kofrim etc. were already said by then, and the Shelichus enterprise was well underway. (Having actually been started by the Rayatz זצ״ל, but don’t let facts confuse you.) So you are now saying that then they WERE OK? That’s a big step forward for you, especially since you don’t seem to know a lot about the Shluchim of later years.
Feel free to use me as a verbal punching bag. I couldn’t care less.
interesting
some people only zoom in on to the positive qualities of habad
and some people only zoom into the drivel they also propagate
I cannot understand why those two points have to be mutually exclusive …
both are true
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.this idea of ‘low benefit’ kiruv does not mean to exclude so called ‘high benefit’ kiruv like the example of your grandfather
what they did with your grandfather and countless other jews is wonderful
it means that habad are the only ones who go such extremes and willing to give up so much in ruchniyut, even in cases which ‘yield’ only ‘low’ benefit
the question – is this somehow connected to their mashiach drivel obsession ?
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