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On a side note as a lubavitcher why do litvishers have such wide variety opinions on Chabad?
Some love some hate
Why is there such a variety of opinions?In Chabad everyone pretty much has the same opinion without much variety in attitude towards other Jews
Yet in the litvishe world it seems so broad in the attitude to chabad
why is that?Whats the amount of yidden youth struggling in theirnyiddishkeit from lakewood williamsburg etc that were mekaraved cause of chabad
Its clear that people just hate
Sinas Chinam will filter out any positivity
Its a negativity biasFor the sake of the argument, every min doesn’t have to be every specie, one type of elephants would be enough.
“Anyone” is falling into the trap of classic habad propaganda
which focuses on the good habad does and thereby covering for the radical theological changes from milenia old yahadut
no one disputes the good habad does , the issue is the changes habad introduced
if ‘anyone’ wants to defend habad , he should explain those changes .
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I love how you guys point at chabad as extreme while your own ideologies are extreme. Facepalm
You need to stop looking at the extreme mindset and start looking at the people. Many people all over the world are suffering from extreme ideologies, chabad is not excluded but the worship of the rebbe is not the sum total of all their beliefs.
To Anyone
I disagree with your thesis that there’s a disparity in how normative Jews view Chabad. Let me explain. First, all mainstream Jews agree that the following Chabad claims are false. That is, we reject that the Rebbe is Moshiach, was a Novi, is still alive, and we reject Manis Friedman’s contention that one can do any Aveirah of his choosing and nothing will happen to him. Second, we all agree that Lubavitchers, by and large, are very nice people and we encourage them to continue their fine Kiruv work. Where there is a difference is that one camp, of which I’m part, is troubled by Chabad’s distortions of our religion and so we address them, while the other camp overlooks the deviant Chabad belief system because they’re impressed by the good Chabad does.
yes they are
even the people who ‘like’ habad do not support their falsifications of yahadut
everyone agrees on this point
..
Chabad is destroying their youth and themselves as well. Many Chabad couples post on social media “about Judaism”. The immodesty is astounding. Women showing off their non-tznius dress as modest and flouncing in front of the camera for the world to see. One Chabad woman posted how they go to the swimming in a mixed pool. The video starts with her husband running into the pool and then cuts to her showing off her “modest” swim dress. What they are showing to the world is that it is ok for “religious” Jews to go swimming in a mixed pool. There was a woman who posted about “modest excersize wear” which of course is not modest and the exersize moves she posted were incredibly immodest. I commented that she cant claim her dress and moves represent “Jewish modesty” when it is totally against halacha. She responded to me that the “Rebbe” said even just one mitzva is better than doing no mitzvas and more of this non-sense. I didnt even know she is Chabad until she wrote me a word salad explaining why what she is doing is in line with Yiddishkeit according to the Rebbe.
Oh how far they’ve strayed from Yiddishkeit in their quest to “do kiruv”. Their hashkafas are so skewed, I cant even begin to describe. But the worst part is that they present their skewed hashkafas as authentic Judaism. Besides for the meshiichism issue, their problem is their hashkafas, particularly now that Mannis Freidman messed it up even more by claiming that “there is no punishment for sinning according to Judaism”…they are influencing many non-Chabad frum people too with their permissive ways.
FYI this question came up at TU conventions years ago. Many in the Arei Hasadeh were complaining about the matzav of their children. When my shver who was a Rov in Connecticut had a child of school age he had to move to Brooklyn. My grandmother moved from Brownsville when my uncle graduated Chaim Berlin because there was no Mesivta available there so they had to run to Rav Rivkin in Williamsburg.
To philosopher
You post is spot on. According to Judaism, at 120 each person will be judged for every second of his life. As an example, we’ll be asked why we didn’t have Kavanah for the first Brocha of Shemoneh Esreh on May 11, 2005. In contrast, we can encapsulate the Chabad belief system as per the following, “A few years ago, a Chabad Rabbi said on VIN, “I tell everyone I meet, “There’s a special sale in Judaism, do one Mitzvah (Tefilin) and get 612 for free.” Obviously, Hashem is merciful, but we can’t assume that we’ll get a pass if we’re nonchalant in our Mitzvah observance. Chabad, on the other hand, teaches that if we do a Mitzvah, we’re doing Hashem a favor. Why don’t people understand this? Because we’re busy. If we’re rich, we’re formulating our plans for Pesach and if we’re poor, we’re trying to figure out how to make ends meet.
Qwerty613, yes that sums is up. They can be lax in basic halachas because they are “culturally frum” so they if they put on tefillin and eat kosher they did their daily duty to Hashem that He “needs from them”…
I say that Chabad aren’t mekarev the secular, the secular world is mekarev them.
Doing kiruv today doesnt work. Secular Jews can watch the lighting of the menorah by a Chabad rabbi, let themselves be wrapped in teffilin, even attend a Shabbaton, and it won’t make a dent in their lifestyle. Maybe, they’ll even buy a Magen David necklace after being “mekarev” by Chabad, but that’s about it. Meanwhile, all this “kiruv” is causing the Lubavitchers to sink lower and lower spiritually.
phil> Doing kiruv today doesnt work. Secular Jews can watch the lighting of the menorah by a Chabad rabbi
this attitude is call chosid shoteh – the one who walks along the river, hears a woman drowning but will not save her out of tzniyut. We have millions of Yidden disappearing, and you suggest doing nothing, while criticizing those who try.
I dont know if what I said about Chabad pertains to all of Chabad. I dont know all Chabad communities, I only speak of what I see. If there are Chabad people and communities who dont believe their rebbe is Moshiach, don’t believe that he is alive and that he has divine attributes, and if they dont believe that there is no oinish in the next world for sinners, and if they don’t believe that Hashem needs us to serve Him (Hashem needs nothing from any human, He wants us to serve Him for our own good) and if they are not influenced by the secular world to the extent that so many Lubavitchers are, then I am not talking about them. I have no clue if all of Chabad is like I am seeing, or if it is just a large fringe. The meshichism is for sure mainstream, but I’m not sure all Chabad communities believe in this idolatrous ideology.
Always Ask, losing your spirituality and your children’s spirituality for the sake of TRYING to do kiruv is totally insane, period. Throughout the generations many Jews have left the fold, never has there been this concept of trying to reel them back into Yiddishkeit because not only doesn’t it work in most cases, it destroys the hashkafas of the people trying to do the kiruv. And many, many off these people they are trying to be mekarev are not even Jewish.
To always
Sorry, you’re missing the point. Lubavitchers, by definition, cannot do Kiruv, because the definition of Kiruv is bringing people closer to Hashem and Lubavitchers have no connection to Hashem. I’ll prove my point. In 2023, I started writing against Chabad, initially it was on VIN. I could be harsh and several Lubavitchers wrote to me, “Aren’t you afraid of what the Rebbe is going to do to you?” This is not an aberrant position. This is how they’ve been trained to think. Now I agree with you that Chabad should continue its work. I have seen numerous success stories in the shuls I attend, but there’s no disputing that the Chabad belief system is abhorrent to any true believing Jew.
To philosopher
My experience with Chabad is from the shuls I attend. There are about 10 Rabbis and their families so there’s well over a 100 Lubavitchers. I have not seen any deviation in their religious practices Tznius etc. What you may be describing are rank and file Lubavitch women. If you look at their websites people write in as follows, “How can you dress like that? Don’t you think it upsets the Rebbe?” Again, they have no concept of a G-d who’s keeping records. The Manis Friedman Kefirah is totally accepted.
phil> Throughout the generations many Jews have left the fold, never has there been this concept of trying to reel them back
seriously? I suggest opening any book of Navi and see them addressing people doing various aveiros. For a random example, see R Gamliel, I think, talking to people distraught by the BM destruction who refuse to drink wine, eat meat, etc – probably early members of some sect or new religion. He is presenting them with a logical argument, trying to change their behavior. Overall, efforts of “teaching Torah” include not only learnng pilpul with young rab onim. but also teaching ignorant ones. See R Akiva teaching kaddish to a son of Roman tax collector.
Say, you have a problem with multi-generational reform Jews or Ivy League grads running with the red flag, but I am sure you can find some small-town ignorami or russian immigrants whom you could help. Did you?
qwerty, it is a mixed bag. I know enough L around, had some kids in their (elementary) schools, met multiple shluchim all over the world. There are crazy ones, and there are excellent ones. You are asking whether the crazy ones bring any benefit? I don’t know. But this dichotomy is not new – R Soloveitchik writes in 1950s, during fridrike rebbe about this – one one hand, brilliance of Alter Rebbe, on the other hand – low quality current publications, on the third hand – dedication of people who travel to all kind of places and find kids to teach. He definitely does not dismiss the latter because of problems in the movement.
To philosopher
There’s a point that must be explained. The Gemara in Cheilek says that 1/300,000 Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach, obviously, a very small percentage. The Rebbe rejected that Gemara and said that Moshiach, meaning himself, will save every Jew. Now the only way that this can happen is if we no longer hold any Jew responsible for anything he does, an idea which undermines the basic foundation of our religion. I asked a Lubavitcher to explain the Rebbe’s source and he showed me a Sichah in which the Rebbe advanced this “scholarly” proof, “In the Haggadah we tell the wicked son that had you been there you wouldn’t have been redeemed, but we make a Diyuk, i.e. in the future Redemption even the total Rasha will be redeemed.” This is total garbage, which no rational Jew would even consider but according to Chabad it’s Emes Amiti. Several months ago, I heard YY Jacobson spouting this nonsense. He spoke with such gravity as if he was relating the Ten Commandments. In any event, the reason Chabad feels obliged to be Mikarev all Yidden and/or non-Yidden is because they have to bring the Rebbe’s fantasy to fruition. The only hope for Chabad is if they admit that he was Ababutal, that’s the Yiddish word my uncle would use for insane. You can correct me if I’m wrong. Don’t worry about “always.” He’s like a broken clock, every so often he makes a cogent remark, but it’s nullified by the dozens of others that are ridiculous.
To always
You’ve repeated this Rabbi Soloveitchik mantra on numerous occasions, but now I’ll address it. First, I have never called for the abolition of the Chabad movement. Second, Rabbi Soloveitchik was discussing the Friediker Rebbe. Had he heard this Moshiach garbage, and even worse Manis Friedman’s Kefirah, you can be sure he wouldn’t have endorsed it. While I have the greatest respect for the Soloveitchiks, statements made seventy-five years ago are irrelevant to the current discussion. It’s like trying to cancel YU because Rabbi Gifter criticized it 90 years ago.
Always ask, doing various aveiros is absolutely not the same as multi-generational total non-observance and assimilation.
To Philosopher
Chabad has C teens for teenagers who are in public high schools and Chabad on Campus for secular college students. I can’t speak for their success rate but it’s probably similar to the mainstream Kiruv organizations. What should be understood is that when Chabad sends a couple to a city in the Jewish boondocks there is no hope for Kiruv whatsoever. Ninety percent of the Jews in these places ae intermarried so nothing can be done with them. They brag about the attendance at their Chanukah and Purim parties, but those same “Jews” will also go to X-mas and Easter parties. Sadly, fools like “always” are taken in by their propaganda. Most Jews are irretrievably lost. This is a fact. We must work on those who can be reached which is the youth, but even they will likely not change their ways. There are far more Jews going OTD than are becoming frum, but there’s little that’s being done for that scourge.
qwerty, sorry for repeating that idea, I just find it very relevant. I agree that people are different, but I was pointing out that the same issue was apparent at the time – combination of glorious past, with current ignorance and dedication.
Phil,
I am not sure what your distinction is. Total non-observance makes people tinokos shenishba and obviously acceptable for kiruv. You are just not comfortable with doing something for these Yidden and looking to build a theory supporting it.Qwerty, i guarantee you Chabad maybe made a half a baal teshuva who adheres to the shulchan aruch in the last 5 years with their college programs. As I said, they are not mekarev the secular, the secular world are mekarev them.
The college campus “kiruv” scene is the same as you describe of kiruv in the boondocks. The “Jewish youth” on colleges and universities are products from assimilated homes that are mostly not Jewish, they just had a Jewish grandma somewhere. Or their parent “converted” through Reform…they are ok with attending Chabad programs because they demand nothing of them besides singing Jewish songs, eating the food Chabad provides, and sometimes putting on teffillin…
I believe Chabad has some success stories with Israeli vacationers in countries like India. That is because Israelis most often don’t come from assimilated households and have some familiarity with Judaism.
Where Yiddishkeit needs to be instilled is within the frum world where the frum youth don’t know much what it means to be a Yid, what belief in Hashem means ( if they would know they wouldn’t drive around with “Hashem needs every Yid” bumper stickers), how previous life is and that there is a reason why they are in this world ( that would help prevent rising suicide rates in the frum community) and how important it is to follow Torah Shebaal peh (Shulchan Aruch)because they always say these days that “it doesn’t say in the Torah”…
To philosopher
You’re correct that Chabad Kiruv is essentially worthless. As an aside, almost all Kiruv is a waste of time and money. The reason we hear so much about it is because many superrich Jews think it’s a noble way to spend their Tzedakah money, but that’s not the point I want to make. The question we should consider is why Hashem gave His Haskama to all these Chabad Houses. One answer, no one has a right to suggest that he knows exactly why Hashem does anything, is because when the Mechallels that Chabad reaches out to come to the next world at 120 Hashem will ask them why they didn’t eat Kosher, as an example. They’ll answer, “How was I supposed to know about Kosher, my parents weren’t religious?” Hashem will say to them, “Didn’t you attend your Chabad Rabbi’s Purim Party?” They’ll answer yes. Then Hashem will nail them, “Didn’t the Rabbi offer to come and Kasher your home and do it for free?” They’ll have no choice but to answer yes and then Hashem will say checkmate and show them the down elevator. Always Ask wrote on February 26 that total non-observance makes one a Tinok Shenishba. That is not only a lie it’s absolute Kefirah. Only Hashem can decide who is a Tinok Shenishba. To “pasken” otherwise puts one in the same category as Manis Friedman who decided that a Jew can eat a ham and cheese sandwich on Pesach, on pumpernickel, and nothing will happen to him. “Always,” always finds some Rabbi to quote out of context and so he’ll cite the Chazon Ish, but we must know what he meant and when it can be applied, but again, Tinok Shenishba is not a get out of jail free card.
Now let me share my story. I went to Yeshiva for 12 years and in that time perhaps I learned for 12 days. That I now learn about 7 hours a day is Mamash a Nes. I will attribute it to three factors. First, Zchus Avos. My mother, AH, told me that on my father’s side I descend from great Galitziyaner Rebbes, including perhaps, Rav Meir Premishlan. Second, growing up on the LES, I saw many outstanding Rabbis and while I wasn’t fully frum, I was influenced in that I knew the difference between real and fake Judaism. Finally, I have a Middah for truth which I got from my parents. When I was about 15 my mother and I went to visit her father. When I got there, he gave me “Al Harosh” in his Yinglish. “Look vat kind grendson I got, I got a bum for a grendson. All de boys geien tze sheel in der free, but this bum geit never nish tze sheel.” I was so shocked by his outburst, because he was generally so sweet. Of course, I didn’t act, at the time, on what he said, but that changed about 15 years later. I was in a shul in my new neighborhood on Shabbos morning (that was the only time I went to shul.) Some old man heard that I was a dentist and he said, “You ah dentist, and you go to shul that’s beautiful.” At that moment I remembered my Zeide’s tirade and I said to myself, “You were right I was a bum and I’m still a bum.” It took me two years to straighten out, and the process continues. The point is that this is who I am. I don’t believe in Hashem, I know in Hashem and I know that Lubavitchers, and those who support them have no Sheiches to G-d. I know how much I’m hated online but I could care less. Someone has to stand up for the Torah which is being abused by ostensibly Orthodox Jews.
I’m going to play devil’s advocate here and mirror the behaviour I get here for having litterlly the exact same oppinion about how litvish people treat each other or the insane materialism that goes on in our community and how cruel certain people can be towards each other cuz of every slight imperfection. but it’s ok for you to look at chabad in a negative light of course and say the exact same things I say about litvish because it’s not you is it.
This is what people say to me when I question litvish people
But I’m going to translate it into chabad speak.
“Sounds like you got hurt by a lot of chabad people”
(That doesn’t refute your opinion about chabad your still allowed to point out what is broken)
“Chabad does alot of chessed so their beyond scrutiny thier beliefs or behaviors can’t be questioned)
Right….
You sound like you just “hate” chabad people and you have a axe to grind so we don’t care about your oppinion
So here the deal it’s ok for you to scrutinize chabad people. Have an opinion about their broken system but it’s not ok for me to do the same to anyon but ele because….. Why?To rescue
Sadly, you write like an angry schoolboy who can’t get a date for the prom, but I’ll respond to your post as if you actually asked a lucid question. There are several basic differences between those, like yours truly, who criticize Chabad, and your nasty rants. First, neither I nor Yankel Berel nor philosopher has ever expressed any personal antipathy for Lubavitchers. As I’ve stated on numerous occasions, I daven regularly in a Chabad shul and have been doing so for more than a decade. We criticize only Chabad’s deviations from legitimate Judaism. You, on the other hand, have never said anything nice about what you call Litvish Judaism. Here’s a newsflash, neither I nor philosopher, nor yankel berel (I think) are Litvish. I agree with you that there are Yeshivish people who are dogmatic and others who are obsessed with materialism. I don’t blame you for finding fault with them, I don’t like many of them either. However, they are not Kofrim as are Lubavitchers. We have proven this point countless times. There’s a major difference between having bad character and between rejecting the philosophical underpinning of our religion. That you can’t see this reflects very poorly on you. I have no problem discussing matters with you, but if you simply want to make grandiose statements to boost your ego, then find someone else to talk to. As Paul McCartney wrote, “Life is very short and there’s no time for fussing and fighting my friend.”
I think qwertys issue is that he thinks Manis Friedman is the current lubavitcher Rebbe so anything he says automatically means that the whole lubavitch movement agrees with it.
I may not be the most knowledgeable person when it comes to the “who’s who” of the yeshiva world but when the only lubavitch name I hear is Manis Friedman and the only names I hear against lubavitch are names I have to Google search even though they’re probably “the greatest gaon alive today…” It’s hard to take anything you say seriously. I personally know plenty of shluchim both older and younger who aren’t fans of manis Friedman and who also don’t feel the need to say that the lubavitcher Rebbe is moshiach etc. and I’m sure if I gave you their names you’d still manage to come up with a reason for why they’re not really doing anything useful and they’re just wasting their time.
There’s a shliach who I’m sure you’ve heard of by the name of berel Lazar who runs a whole network of institutions etc. And one of the many things he does is run a program for bachurim from Iran where they learn shechita safrus mila etc. For a few years and then they go back to Iran and help raise the standards in the community they grew up in. I’m sure you can figure out why he’s not doing much and is just wasting his time.
P.S. you are the exact type of person that Daniel eleff (Dan’s deals) felt the need to write his whole article on “the do’s and don’ts while enjoying chabad’s services during your travels”Querty your getting stuck on the nitty gritty details and justifying yourself. We both have different opinions. And that’s that. You have an opinion about chabad I have an option about litvish. It doesn’t matter what the oppinion is about. Stop making it as if your better because of your oppinion.
To LA boy
Manis Friedman is arguably the most famous Chabad Rabbi in the world and therefore your attempt to marginalize him is fooling no one. Moreover, the Chabad leadership refuses to denounce him which implies that they agree with him. And then we have Shlomo Cunin who publicly stated that it’s the Rebbi and not Hashem who runs the world. Again, the Chabed brass are silent. But we shouldn’t be surprised that Manis is a Kofer since the Rebbe was also a Kofer as he rejected the Gemara in Cheilek which said that only 1/300,000 Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach. As for you intimation that I dismiss all Chabd as irrelevant. That’s simply a lie. They serve valuable functions, providing Kosher meals and minyanim for travelers, and reaching out to the disenfranchised. My point, and the others on YWN agree, is that their propaganda that they are the face of Judaism is nonsense. An atheistic, idolatrous religion cannot be the vanguard. Checkmate.
LA boy, I have heard Lubavitchers say that the difference between the Jewish religion and others is that in the Jewish religion there is no concept of hell and in other religions you do go to hell if you sin according to theif beliefs. They were saying this to a Non-Jewish youtuber who came to 770 and was recording his experiences in 770. These Lubavitchers did not seem “not the mainstream” and they were all talking loudly and unashamedly in 770, so it didnt seem like they had an extremely different opinion than the other Lubavitchers there. And that is not the only time I’ve seen Lubavitchers expressing Many Freidman’s ideology on this topic and others.
I repeatedly said that perhaps not all Lubavitchers believe that the Rebbe is alive and that he is Moshiach, and perhaps not all Lubavitchers agree with Manny Freidman, but this is sure the mainstream ideology.
I’ve also seen videos of Chabad “rabbis” saying about the most ridiculous things (for example, one “rabbi” addressed the question if one can daven at the ohel of the rebbe since he is still alive and in 770…and his answer was that one should do what their mashpia says… this is 100% cult talk)
And as qwerty mentioned, no one spoke in Lubavitch spoke against Cunin who publicly stated that the Rebbe runs the world. If his ideology wouldn’t be accepted in mainstream Chabad we would’ve heard condemnation from Chabad “rabbis”.
1. How can you daven in a chabad shul if you think they’re kofrim? Either you accept them or you don’t. The fact that you have no problem going into a chabad shul to daven is proof that either you don’t care about halacha which doesn’t allow kofrim to be counted in a minyan or you don’t believe most of what you say and you just like having pointless arguments online.
2. Who is the “chabad leadership” that should denounce Manis Friedman? You sound like the politicians in one party who every time something bad happens involving the other party they feel the need to ask every single member of the opposing party to denounce it because if they don’t that means they approve of whatever happened. Maybe I should start going to all the litvish roshei yeshivas, rabbonim, roshei kollel etc. And ask them to denounce the bench/shtender throwing in a certain yeshiva in bnei brak and if they refuse to listen to me (which they probably would because why would they listen to a random guy like me who they never heard of before) then that means they agree with the bench and shtender throwing.
3. You proved my point that you’re the exact person that Daniel eleff had in mind when he wrote his article about the do’s and don’ts of enjoying chabad’s services during your travels.Manis is a kofer since the Rebbe was also a kofer…kosher meals and minyanim for travelers… An atheistic, idolatrous religion.
I’m honestly very confused if you actually think chabad are kofrim or not. If you’re at home in a frum community then they’re kofrim and like any kofrim you wouldn’t eat their food or count them for a minyan etc. But when you’re traveling are they no longer kofrim or are you not keeping kosher and davening with kofrim when you travel? Or are you just lying to yourself?To philosopher
Thank you for responding to the new fool on the block. He’s trying to “catch” me now. Paul McCartney wrote, “Life is very short and there’s no time for fussing and fighting my friend.” If LA boy wants to be a Chabad lover that’s his right. I don’t care. I’m just here to set the record straight. My allegiance is to Hashem. If this dummy wants to support an idolatrous religion Gezunterheit. Baruch Hashem there are a number of clear minded thinkers on YWN and it’s to them that I’ll address my comments. This phony liar claims not to know who’s in charge of Chabad. It was Krinsky and Kotlarsky but the latter died. So why hasn’t Krinsky ever issued a public statement disavowing any and all of Chabad’s outrageous claims? Shtikah Kihodaah. Don’t waste your time with that lowlife. Some people have no interest in the truth, and you can’t get through to them.
To philosopher
I’d like to elaborate on what you wrote about Chabad and hell. In the video in which Manis says that no Jew can be punished today because of the long, bitter Golus he also referenced hell, “I’m not afraid of hell. Christians are afraid of hell.” Then someone in the audience made a joke, “But in Boro Park they’re afraid of hell.” He and Manis then both had a good laugh implying that Boro Parkers are fools. Rabbi Miller has a beautiful word on the subject of Gehinnom. He said that it’s the world of regret, where a person will recognize all the mistakes he made and the opportunities he wasted. We have this nut job Friedman, along with clowns like LA boy who adore him. They’re daring Hashem to do something to them. Everything is written down. We’ll see who laughs in the end.
Qwerty, it is really inspirational the way you turned yourself around. This what we are here for, to grow into better and greater ovdei Hashem.
The fact is that the Lubavitchers have accepted Manis’s hashkafas because there is a spiritual black hole in Chabad’s entire identity which is doing kiruv. The Jews who were assimilated for a few generations weren’t becoming frum anymore so what would they sell to them? Their new selling pount is “just do one mitzvah, Hashem needs you to give Him a few crumbs of mitzvos and you’re good”. Well, if they only expected assimilated Jews to do some cultural mitzvos here and there, then the Lubavitchers too, only need to “try their best” and if they keep on sinking lower and disregarding more and more halachas from Shulchan Aruch, so what, they are not going to gehinom anyway, whatever they “do for Hashem” is a bonus… As I say again and again, the Lubavitchers are not being mekarev anybody these days, the secular world is merav them.
Talking about Chabad “kiruv”, it is a joke. I am following a Chabad rabbi who travels to interesting “Jewish communities” (these communities generally barely have a minyan of old people) within Russia. He just posted a video of a Chabad Purim event in Russia. For th production they are putting on the actresses are both men and women. They have women dancers. The male and female guests are sitting together… what kiruv are they doing? This is “cultural kiruv”. Real baalie teshuvas who adhere to Shulchan Aruch they cant get, so they cater to those who will accept their cultural identity. I have no doubt that mixed in the crowd are plenty of non-Jewish spouses of their Jewish guests.
There is absolutely no heter to disregard halachos for “kiruv”. But that is what they are doing. What they are doing is spinning their wheels in their mitzva tanks. They are going nowhere just getting more and more stuck in the mud.
Anyway, everyone should have a freilichen Purim and Hashem should bring the geulah before we lose total sight of right and wrong.
Wow quarty relax nobody is getting at you. You sound like a brainwashed yeshiva bachur screaming slogans rather then fact.
Yes I see your point but, balance bro.
Your allegiance is to “hashem” and your “ideology” but your human you can have a viewpoint that’s a little more well rounded. Chill“lowlife” “lier” “dummy” wow. Relax. Breathe. He just has a difference of _oppinon_
Stop threatening people too, “daring hashem to do something”
You have no grasp of reality. Difference of oppion isn’t punished by God. Your allowed to have difference of oppion and different things you agree with that’s called critical thinking and that’s human. If God didn’t want us to have different opinions he wouldn’t have created us with different brains and circumstances. I’m not sure which God you serve but you have no grasp of reality at all. WakeupI’m not sure who your sources are but there’s no one person or even group of people who are in charge of “chabad” the people in charge of the shlichus program or even of 770 are not in charge of the whole community.
I do agree with the statement that chabad is not afraid of gehinnom as opposed to other groups which are, I don’t think anyone in chabad denies that gehinnom exists but their focus is on the positive. In general mussar is about how bad we are and we’re going to gehinnom so we shouldn’t sin etc. And chassidus is about how great God is and just the very fact that he created us means he loves and we should serve him out of love to him. One is focused on the positive one is focused on the negative. Neither path is wrong but just because one doesn’t focus on gehinnom and live their life in fear of God doesn’t mean they don’t believe gehinnom exists.
Btw I’m still waiting for you to explain how you can daven and eat by shluchim if they’re kofrim etc
LA Boy is disingenuous when he compares ‘bench throwing’ in a certain yeshiva by a few indivuduals
to changing ikarei emuna by recognized representatives of a shared movement
changing ikarei emuna by representatives of a shared movement has huge implications
throwing benches by individuals and the like , are individual misdeeds which are sadly not only confined to that specific yeshiva
and could be found in other non litvish argument settings too , by the way …
silence in the face of changes in ikarei emuna in your own movements name, constitutes agreement
silence in the face of individual misbehavior in the course of existing public disagreement over real estate ownership is something totally different
any level headed person would agree …
.
.Yankel Berel is correct.
Throwing benches are individual misdeeds.
Representatives of any large Jewish community
who change ikarei emuna, this has HUGE implications!Maybe chabad teach a much healthier outlook on gehenim. See none of us will know the truth till we get there. It might be time we learn from other factions that control and fear are not healthy. And possibly abusive. For example take a real life scenario if I told you you had to do what I want otherwise you’ll go to hell. Does that um garner respect, faith, trust, love etc etc or does that garne fear, resentment, control, pain, suffering
See what I did here. Fear based thinking stems from a need for control and manipulation. I don’t think G-d is manipulative or controlling. You might want to read the Torah again but this time through the lense of being an all loving entity and not a screaming don’t you dare monsterTo philosopher
Thanks for the kind words. I like to think that the fact that I grew up only semi-frum gives me a different perspective which I use in my Divrei Torah. Of course, I agree with your take on Chabad. You’re simply telling the truth.
To yankel berel
You can’t get through to people who aren’t interested in the truth.
To LA boy
You don’t think that anyone in Chabad denies that Gehinnom exists. Let me quote the Rabbi of the Chabad shul I attend, “When the Rebbe became Moshiach he closed down Gehinnom.” He wasn’t joking. Of course that’s insanity, but it’s also insanity to suggest that the Rebbe is still alive and many Lubavichers subscribe to that theory. All the statements coming out of Chabad are lunacy, but they’re based on the central lie of Chabad which is Schneersohn’s Kefirah that all Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach. As for your question about my attending a Chabad shul, I’ve answered it numerous times on other threads, but I’ll repeat what I wrote. As yankel berel stated in an earlier post, there’s a difference between Halachic and Hashkafic idolatry, Kefirah etc. Until there’s a Psak, the Chabad religion is not officially idolatrous and therefore I am permitted to Daven there and eat their food. The reason I go there is because it’s the only shul in my neighborhood which fits my weekday schedule and I refuse to daven without a minyan. Moreover, I get along very well with the Rabbis. If you want to believe that I’m a hypocrite, you’re entitled to your incorrect opinion.
To rescue
You’re a “one-trick pony” reducing everything to differences of opinion. You remind me of something I read many years ago in the now defunct Jewish Week. A Reform Rabbi wrote an article in which he said, “I’m a Rabbi and Maimonides is a Rabbi why do people think that his opinion is more valid than mine?” Now you wouldobviously agree with him. You would also agree that Christianity is a valid form of Judaism; it just represents a different point of view. So let’s learn to take a Torah based approach. In fact, there is a principle of Eilu Veilu Divrei Elokim and it’s far reaching. Therefore, if one group within Orthodoxy has certain customs, they must be respected even if they are at odds with our own approach. Another example. Six days, 5786 and 6000 are not absolutes. There are respected authorities who think otherwise and therefore one is free to choose whichever side is to his liking. On the other hand, Manis Friedman’s statement that anyone can do any Aveirah and nothing will happen to him is against the basic belief system of Judaism and so he isn’t entitled to have his own opinion, just as Schneersohn had no right to reject the Gemara which said that only 1/300,000 Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach. If you want to discuss this further, I’m here, but if you want to simply make churlish atheistic statements, find someone else to play with.
I have been basically keeping up with the conversation without offering my two cents worth, until now when I read the following by LA boy:
“In general mussar is about how bad we are and we’re going to gehinnom so we shouldn’t sin etc. And chassidus is about how great God is and just the very fact that he created us means he loves and we should serve him out of love to him.”
As someone who (proudly) learns both mussar and chassidus, I have to point out that the above is one of the big propaganda lies that has been mouthed by Lubavich for as long as I can remember, and that is quite a long time!
I would venture to claim that LA boy has never learnt mussar! Mussar tells you how to improve yourself and where you need improvement. It does not tell you how we’re going to Gehinom.
And I have an important question for you. If we are not meant to fear Gehinom, why do Chazal mention it and tell us how scary it is?
your questions to LAboy are on the mark
and bet you will not get an on the point response
for the simple reason that none exists …
..
No offense qwerty I respect your oppinion but your full of contradictions and technicalities.
ARSo cuz chazal had an agenda. A fear based agenda….duh
Arso, my understanding is that some of the early mussar was indeed focusing on punishment, so maybe LAboy quotes chassidic books from 150 years ago
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