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To ARSo
Why have you stayed away? Let me start by noting that the Lubavitchers no longer contribute. Initially, they were replaced by Shimon Katz and Yedl who are both decent guys. They wrote that the Chabad beliefs are all nonsense, but we should dismiss them because only a handful of Lubavitchers actually believe them which is total baloney. They realized that we weren’t buying that nonsense, so they disappeared to be replaced by LA Boy and rescue. To their credit, they don’t deny that Chabad as a whole, rejects the concept of punishment, but what they’re saying is that they think that this is a valid position within Judaism, which of course is insane.
To rescue
Could you elaborate on the contradictions and technicalities that I’m guilty of because it’s hard to address generalities. BTW, are you Shomer Torah Umitzvohs? From your posts, it seems like you do whatever feels right to you.
“Let me quote the Rabbi of the Chabad shul I attend,”…Of course that’s insanity,…All the statements coming out of Chabad are lunacy, but they’re based on the central lie of Chabad which is Schneersohn’s Kefirah that all Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach.
“Until there’s a Psak, the Chabad religion is not officially idolatrous and therefore I am permitted to Daven there and eat their food. Moreover, I get along very well with the Rabbis.”If you truly believe that it’s idolatrous etc. Then why are you waiting for an official Psak? Either you don’t actually believe it or you do but you can’t be bothered to drive a little bit further to daven with a minyan so you’re making excuses that there’s no official Psak yet so it’s ok. Btw there was a Psak from the talmidi hagra and over the last 250+ years there’s been other groups also that paskened that chabad is a cult that chassidus in general is a cult etc etc. Who would you actually accept a Psak from because if that’s what you’re looking for you have it already. Is malkiel saying chabad is not invited to the siyum hashas because they’re not part of klal yisreal enough for you? If I get along with Christians am I allowed to join them also for their services?
Like I’ve written before, it seems the only person you know anything about in chabad is manis Friedman and the rabbi of the shul you go to and both have said things that sound like kefira to you but because no bais din in today’s day and age has officially made a Psak against them and you obviously refuse to accept the Psak din of other battei dinim over the last two centuries you convinced yourself that it’s ok to go there since they have a minyan even though the rabbi believes in things that are kefira in your opinion. Ironically you remind me of the not frum people you say chabad is not helping. A lot of them have “feelings” for God and they’re “religious in their heart” so there’s no need for them to manifest it into the physical by doing actual mitzvos etc. So you believe chabad is kefira but it’s too convenient for you so just thinking it and writing about it here on YWN is enough for you but in practice you’ll keep eating their food when traveling and even daven in one of their shuls on a daily basis purely for convenience…AAQ, you don’t get earlier than Rishonim in mussar, and, for example, the Orchos Tzaddikim and Chovos Halevavos don’t focus on punishment at all.
I have no problem responding the fact is that in general chassidus was based on knowing about God and how God cares about us etc. While mussar was based on how bad we are. It could be things have changed over time but those are what the original sifrei chassidus and mussar were based on.
In general mussar is based on sor may’ra and chassidus is based on assay tov.
One is about correcting what you’ve done wrong the other is about becoming a better person and then naturally you’ll correct what you’ve done wrong.We are meant to fear gehinnom but we are not meant to live in fear of gehinnom. There’s a mitzvah to love God and there’s also a mitzvah to fear God. The question is which one are you putting more focus on… In my siddur in the berachos before shema it mentions loving God more than it mentions fearing him so that’s what I like focusing on
Coincidentally this is the perfect time of year for this conversation. The reason a lot of people hate pesach is because of all the chumros they grew up with so when they grow up and have their own home they go the opposite extreme and instead of keeping some chumros they just go to a pesach program where they don’t have to do anything and they eat everything offered there…
I have no problem with believing in gehinnom and how scary it is but there are more positive mammorei chazal that I like to focus on morerescue is already up to criticising hazal ….
who knows whats next ….
what you write comparing chassidus and missar, like “In general mussar is based on sor may’ra and chassidus is based on assay tov.”, is TOTAL nonsense.
both types of seforim deal equivalently with both aspects. Noam Elimelech, probably the most universal teach, influencer, and learned sefer in Chassidus, is fully entrenched in the “sir me’ruh” emphasis. Mesilas Yeshurim, arguably the most learned missar classic sefer today, is fully entrenched in the “aseh tov” emphasis.
The whole distinction is foolish and could only be said by someone who hasn’t learned either seforim. I mean, look at sefer HaTanya, which is well invested in “sir me’ruh”…
since I’ve joined this conversation, let me be do the wonderful mitzvoh of being moche the disgusting commentor @rescue and his decrepit words laced with kefira and disgrace.
I appreciate those who are smart enough to ignore him and not answer his antisemitic stupidity
LA boy: “I have no problem responding the fact is that in general chassidus was based on knowing about God and how God cares about us etc. While mussar was based on how bad we are. It could be things have changed over time but those are what the original sifrei chassidus and mussar were based on.
In general mussar is based on sor may’ra and chassidus is based on assay tov.
One is about correcting what you’ve done wrong the other is about becoming a better person and then naturally you’ll correct what you’ve done wrong.”Absolute and total garbage! But it’s not your chiddush. It’s the same garbage Lubavich has been spouting since before I’ve known anything about them.
Which “original” sefer mussar is based on how bad we are, and not on improving ourselves?
You know what happens when people live in an echo chamber and they deal with no adversity. They become delusional and weak get over it
To the group
Let me share a story. There was a Chassidishe Gadol who lived on the Lower East Side. I was his dentist until he passed away in 1995. In 1998 his grandson, who’s Bobov, took over his Shteller. We became friends. Occasionally, I spend Shabbos on the LES. When I do I go to that Shul for Mincha Maariv and the Rabbi speaks during Shalosh Seudos. Several months ago, I complimented him, “When you mention Litvish Rabbis like the Gaon you speak with the same reverence as you do when quoting Chassidishe Rebbes.” He responded, “Torah is Torah.” This is how I was raised. This concept of Chassidish Torah versus Litvish Torah is a canard. There is only one Torah for all Jews. Now I spend all my time on Gemara but when I was finding my way I focused on Mussar. I don’t recall ever reading a statement about hell. Mussar teaches a person to recognize how the Yetzer hora is playing with our heads and it presents strategies in dealing with him. That’s it.
To yankel berel
LA boy and rescue are lost souls. That’s why they’re siding with Chabad.
LA Boy seems to talk plain rubbish
I cannot speak for rav malkiel re habad & siyum hashas
but – between ‘not inviting habad’ to the siyum , and ‘not being part’ of klal yisrael
between those two , there is a huge distance
can’t imagine in my wildest dreams rav malkiel paskening that a get with habad witnesses will result in mamzerut
are they ‘part of’ ? …. yes
are they … ‘THE valid spokespeople’ …. for our age old judaism ? ….. no
what qwerty is saying — as long as their edut is not turning subsequent children into halachik mamzerim
their presence counts for a halachik minyan
that does not mean they do not continuously spout their absolutely unacceptable opinions as if they would constitute authentic judaism
and that also does not mean that calling out those opinions is somehow a contradiction to counting them as part of a minyan ….
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.LA boy, can you explain why the Arizal said that one is to learn sifrei mussar all year round? He’s quoted in the Ba’er Heitev 603:1 (as well as in the Mishna Berura there, but of course, that’s not a source for you).
The Baal Hatanya in Hilchos Talmud Torah also says to learn sifrei mussar. Why?
To ARSo
You’re talking to LA goy as if he’s actually a practicing Jew. He and rescue are clearly OTD, and they defend Chabad because Chabad tells them that sins are no longer punishable.
To yankel berel
Thanks for defending me. I had no intention of wasting my time with that atheist.
It’s impossible to be an Ehrliche Yid without BOTH ??? ??? and ??? ???. No one is ???? on that. The differences between the various Shittos [BOTH within Chassidus and within Mussar] are:
1. Which one to start with.
2. To what extent a lack of adequate ??? ??? precludes one [for the time being] from taking on non-obligatory ??? ???.
3. Which one to emphasize more.
Especially item number 2, where there are big differences between Chassidim and Litvaks, and between different types of Chassidim.
To Yaakov Yosef A
Well said. When Yehoshua said that he heard the sound of war in the camp Moshe corrected him and said it was merely the sound of distress. LA boy and rescue are spouting nonsense and Kefirah but it should be understood that it’s just the rantings of distress. The problem is that Manis Friedman is giving such people a voice by endorsing their Kefirah.
Your all wrong. Yirah, doesn’t mean fear it means _awe_ and they have very distinct meanings
Querty I love how you think we think sins are not punishable because chabad might say so. Just because someone has a different thought then you, is wiser then you, isn’t brainwashed like you, doesn’t scream at people like you, doesn’t mean they can’t use critical thinking skills you keep showing everyone how closed minded sheltered and out of touch with reality you are. Keep talking it makes delusion and sheeple speak more obvious every time you open your mouth
And also I don’t like chabad but just because they have a difference of oppion about hell, doesn’t make us right and them wrong.
Nobody knows what happens after we die it’s all assumptions and extrmism but if you look at the world and creation I would assume God is a lot kinder then what we claim he is, because humans don’t work well with fear, and God who created us surely knows that.
So……who’s delusional? Your extreme fear based thinking or chabad.
And you have free will and your using your free will to make yourself afraid for no reason which makes you a collasal fool.Querty everyone has a difference of oppion based off their own circumstances, we are not spouting “nonsense” and “kefirah” we are stating a difference of oppion. But that’s an easy way to shut down a conversation and close your ears so you don’t have to listen to different perspectives. Very mature
YYA > It’s impossible to be an Ehrliche Yid without BOTH ??? ??? and ??? ???.
yes! and, as you mention, choices between might be different for different people/groups. but what is interesting that proponents of specific directions usually insist that “this is the right way”. Is someone treating the issue taking all views into account?
But, of course, the starting point is even earlier and fundamental from Adam and Hava time – knowing the difference between tov and ra.
Doing ra while you are thinking you are doing tov “is not an answer”.The word ???? actually means BOTH “fear” and “awe”. These are two distinct levels also know as ???? ????? ????? ??????? or sometimes ???? ???? ????? ?????. This is basic in both Mussar and Chassidus. The Likutey Moharan, Tanya, and other Chassidish Seforim clearly state that one MUST start from basic ???? ?????. To get to ???? ??????? requires a high level of Emunah, to the point where one actually feels Hashem’s presence ????? ??? ??? and is embarrassed in front of Him to do anything wrong. No one starts off on such a level.
Continued – On the other hand, ???? ????? doesn’t mean being depressed or focusing on the negative. This is a big topic, which takes up a lot of room in the Heilige Seforim of all types.
To rescue
Would you like to tell us whose opinion you follow?
How does yirah both mean awe and fear. They are two distinct feelings.
Pachad is fear
Yirah means awe.
Yiras haonesh can still translate to awe of consenquences and it still fits.In ???? ????? one word can have many levels of meaning. There are numerous sources on the meaning and levels of ????. Playing word games in English doesn’t change that.
To rescue
You question how Yirah can mean both awe and fear. So let me ask you a better question, “How could Dovid Hamelech write in one chapter of Tehilim, “Ivdu es Hashem Bisimcha” but in another “Ivdu es Hashem Biyirah?” Was he schizophrenic Chas Veshalom?” Shlomo Hamelech provides the answer in Kohelet,”there’s a time for fear and a time for joy etc.” Hashem gave human beings broad personalities and we’re expected to express that variety in our lives. Therefore. there’s a time to fear Hashem and a time to celebrate with Hashem. There’s no contradiction. Of course, you have to act properly at the proper time. That should answer your question. I await the answer to the query I posed to you. It doesn’t seem to me that you have inculcated Torah values and Hashkafah, but I will give you the opportunity to respond before I pass judgment.
There are many places in Tanach and Chazal where the verb ???? (in multiple forms) cannot be translated as “awe”. There are many others where it can. Two sides of one coin.
What? Ivdu es hashem bisimcha means
Serve God with joy
Ivdu es hashem with yirah
Serve God with awe. These are not hard concepts to understand. And yes translating words correctly for their actual translations matter.Yaakov yosef you can’t translate one word to have two distinct meanings sorry. They have complete different frequencies and they garner two distinct experiences.
Qweurty just because shlomo hamelech said there’s a time for fear doesn’t mean he was translating that to mean to “fear” God. That was a blanket understanding of life.
I personally think yirah and _awe_ is much much more in alignment with connection and relationship with God as that’s how humans naturally serve and feel connected to their creator. Pachad or yirah translated as “fear” is not in alignment with the nature of a relationship humans naturally have with God.Yirah (???????) is a Hebrew word often translated as “fear” in English, but its deeper meaning encompasses awe, reverence, and worship. It describes a profound sense of wonder and holy respect in the presence of God’s majesty, rather than mere terror or dread.
Awe and Reverence: Yirah involves being overwhelmed by God’s holiness, power, and glory—similar to standing at the edge of the Grand Canyon or witnessing a majestic natural wonder.
Does that sound like “fear” to you..no _pachad_ is fear and it has a completely different frequency and meaning.
Words can have deeper layers of understanding but it has to be based off the meaning of the word. You can’t make the whole word mean something completly different then the actual meaning. If that was the case nobody would be able to convey proper messages and or put meaning on any word if it can be taken completly out of context.
See gemorah drash about what word “es” means, and that “yire as haElokim” es possibly can not mean “something else”, but Rabbi Akiva says – it can mean that also “talmidei chachamim”. from this. yireh means something that when applied to Hashem can not be comparable to most other situationms. That, it i surely not general “fear” – it is either extreme fear or awe …
There are many places in Tanach and Chazal where the verb ??? refers to things other than Hashem, including things not at all deserving of “awe”, so like it or not it has both meanings. We also find ??? referring to awe… As in ??? ????. Yitzchok Avinu certainly had the highest levels of ???? ???????, yet the ???? calls it ???. We also. find in Yeshayah – ????? ??? ?? ????? ??????. So Loshon Hakodesh can be tricky.
To rescue
Fine. You’ve made your point. You don’t believe that there’s any such concept as fearing Hashem. You obviously also don’t believe that there was a Holocaust. But let’s not go there. I distinctly asked you to state whose opinion your follow. You ignored the question choosing instead to spout your nonsense that Yirah doesn’t mean fear. Now there’s a reason you didn’t answer the question. It’s because you don’t follow anyone which is why you make heretical statements. As I’ve said on numerous occasions, I’m not a follower of any particular Rabbi or sect, but I have very close relationships with several great Rabbis. You, on the other hand, rely on your own “oppion.” Not only are you arrogant, but you write on the level of a three-year-old. I would advise YYA to stop wasting his time with you. There’s no hope for a fool who’s wise in his own eyes. That was Shlomo Hamelech speaking. He also said in Koheles that there’s a time for every matter under Heaven and that includes fearing G-d. Not convinced. Check out Mishlei 9:10, “The beginning of wisdom is the fear (Yirah) of Hashem” But you think you’re smarter than Shlomo Hamelech because he didn’t know English. Checkmate dude.
Posted this on the wrong thread: Pachad (Hebrew: ???????) is a Hebrew word used in the Torah to convey _dread_ terror, or fear—often describing a profound sense of alarm, especially in response to divine presence or imminent danger.
Meaning: The term denotes a sudden alarm or overwhelming fear, both as a feeling and as the object of fear. It can refer to:
Divine terror instilled in enemies of IsraelPachad means dread, fear
Yirah means _awe_ reverance
The two are distinct and cannot mean the other sorryI never said I don’t believe there’s. Concept of fearing hashem. Wow, I said let’s translate words _coreectly_ so we don’t mistranslate things and define things incorrectly. My goodness
I don’t believe there is a holocaust….because I said yirah should be define _correctly_ are you slow or something? Again, yirah means awe
So the time for wisdom is the _awe_ of God.
First of all your post just showed me how crazy you are….
I don’t believe in the holocaust according to you
I state _correctly_ that yirah means awe not fear so somehow I’m thinking not according to your terms of how I should be thinking.
I’m not sure who’s making himself look like a collosal fool me or you?!
Your litterlly so imiture you act angry when someone says anything, anything at all.
I’m not sure who’s acting like a 3 year old but you just revealed to me how incapable you are of having a mature conversation and honestly wow I see how far you are from reality and also how slow you are.
That doesn’t make _me_ the 3 year old. I think you just revewlad to everybody who’s the 3 year old lolYaakov yosef. So your saying words can have two meanings. Right….please no it cannot.
You know what I noticed querty, not only are you insanely cruel over the most pettiest things. Which is insanity, your also crazy. And that’s very very sad.
Please before you insult others don’t open your mouth your revealing how pathetic your and extreme, out of touch and imiture your way of thinking is
You reveal your inability to have a _regular_ conversation about basic facts
Your need to destroy and other anything and anybody that does anything outside your extreme mindset
Remind me again who you represent? Oh right the Jewish people
And what are the Jewish people according to you? “Perfect” and “the most giving among all nations” right querty keep convincing yourself that your kinder then everybody else your abject cruelty is seeping into every post, every conversation, breathe look around you observe stop being a foolish sheep that can’t think for himself. Cuz look what you turn into. A disgusting monsterTo rescue
It’s quite obvious that you won’t listen to anything that I or anyone else says so I won’t go any further. I will, however, offer an olive branch. I write a very popular weekly Dvar Torah over the internet. If you’d like to read it just send me your e-mail (that offer is available to any other interested posters. No names of course.)
To the group
Is it just my imagination or do you also think that “rescue” doesn’t like me? I probably remind him of the Rabbis who “made” him go off the derech. Let’s just add one point. YYA said that words in Loshon Hakodesh can have more than one meaning, but rescue disagrees. Only one way to settle this. Let’s bring in an unbiased third party the great band Led Zeppelin. In their classic hit, “Stairway to Heaven” the lead singer Robert Plant tells us, “Cuz you know sometimes words have two meanings.” I guess that settles it. Checkmate to rescue. I didn’t say he acts like a three-year-old, I said he writes like a three-year-old. He acts like, ….. ya know some things are better left unsaid. Good Shabbos.
I’m not interested in your dvar Torah. Thanks but no thanks.
The only person not listening is you. Please look in the mirror thanksAnd I don’t need to listen to you. I listen to sense. When you have a proper argument to refute mine, not just hot air insults cuz you have no good comeback. Maybe, maybe I’ll listen. Till then keep running away from facts. It makes you look so mature
I have no problem calling people rav, harav, godol hador, etc. Or whatever other title you decide he deserves or in some cases he got because he won elections. But if someone says I’m not part of klal yisreal which is a disgusting thing to say then I have no problem calling him by his name without any titles.
When someone says something it usually shows what they’re thinking, you can try to explain what he really meant and give 100 excuses that he didn’t give an official Psak etc etc. But none of that changes what he said and as much respect as I have or don’t have for him I don’t think he’s a liar that needs his words to be reinterpreted by othersI don’t need to listen to you just because you say something. That’s not how reality works. And you don’t listen to me either. Goes in one ear out the other so stop being a hypocrite. And I feel bad for whoever hears your dvar Torah. It’s prob filled with fear mongering, hatred, name calling, and exremisms which is the dumbest thing I’ve ever seen. So no thanks buddy I’ll pass
@la-boy
I don’t know you, but why are you so upset by the idea that you aren’t part of “klal yisroel”? Maybe you aren’t? Maybe they have a point.“Is it just my imagination or do you also think that “rescue” doesn’t like me”
Don’t play stupid games and get stupid prizes. Your think you can talk to anybody anyway you want and not get some form or reaction?
That’s interesting
Almost as interesting as the sky being blue. Duh.
That’s not “dislike” thats called reaction to an action.
Every time you open your mouth querty no offense you reveal to all of us how disconnected you are from basic common sense and that’s so so sad. But keep doing your living in la la land like you can do no wrong despite the wrong you do do….somehow real life is going to act differently towards you cuz you so “special”Also for someone who thinks he’s on the derech listening to stairway to heaven. Wow that’s out of the box.
I write in simple language querty so even someone like you can understand. You know what’s also written in 3 year old language so stupid people can understand it. The Torah.
“And Moses said, say unto the nation” yes simplistic speech is important to get the message across. So you don’t misinterpret things you know what I mean
Somehow tho querty despite your so called higher intelligent writing as you claim you can’t get passed three year old logic which is so funny haha
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