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yankel> the late rebbi of habad never attended any yeshiva … even during his yeshiva years ….
he probably learnt either by himself or under his father r levi
so what I wrote was accurate : the only institutions he attended were universities …
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I am confused – are these your words or you are quoting Talmidei Chachomim.The eplanation you gave sounds like something from chatgpt or from a seminary girl perusing resumes – “the only institution he attended …”. I presume he learned from his father. His youth was during WW1 and post that. R Soloveichik I believe also learned only with his father (after the mother discovered that his early chabad rebbe was not rigorous enough) and later with visits to R Chaim Ozer. R Eliezer learnt in the desert from only his father. Yitzhak learned from his father …
And his university studies were while running away from tzoros in Eastern Europe in late 20s. He did not even study humanities, just some modern physics, calculus and mechanical engineering. how does this pasel someone?!
again, if these are your own suggestions, that’s ok. I was afraid that some learnt people are saying this.
@AAQ
Am not ‘paseling’ anyone in a black and white manner because they never attended any institution besides universities
am putting their later statements and policies into the context of their formative years
the formative years are a very important factor into shaping their ultimate personality
thats all .
.
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.I am not an expert on L Rebbe, but I know a little about math & engineering. I do not see much of academic influence on L Rebbe Torah, aside from occasional references to scientific facts. This is in contrast with R Soloveitchik, R Hirsh, Rambam who are able to use their knowledge of science within their Torah, and there is nothing wrong with that.
@AAQ
ok
at least we agree on the facts then , the only institutions he ever attended were universities ….
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.yankel> the only institutions he ever attended were universities
As I don’t understand how this related to LR’s credentials in Torah, I’m forced to point out that
bringing irrelevant info, hinting to some negativity, is not emes, it is pure genivah daas and lashon harah.R Eliezer b’ Shimon skipped most of the school and was hanging out in the desert. Yitzhak Avinu was hanging out
with Avimelech and his general. These are all facts, but these would be ridiculous statements.To reddem yourself, maybe you can bring some of the LRs Torah and show how it connects to his university education (which is not a hesaron by itself, of course) and then show how it eads to some questionable conclusions.
@AAQ
this fact — of their leader not attending any yeshiva and attending only universities for many years
was mentioned in public by rav shach as grounds for rejection of his opinion as automatic daat torah on many contemporary subjects .
so it is definitely not geneivat da’at nor lashon hara ….
yitchak avinu’s relationship with avimelech is totally irrelevant to this …
so is r elazars supposed ‘skipping school’ whatever that is meant to mean ….
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.To yankel berel
You’re wasting time dealing with AAQ.
yankel> was mentioned in public by rav shach as grounds for rejection of his opinion as automatic daat torah on many contemporary subjects .
ok, so it was not clear whether it was your words or you were quoting someone. I’ve looked again at this – I think this is probably in line with R Schach statements that a real gadol has to spend all day learning, rather than do other things – not just during his early years but continuously. I don’t think this was specific to college. If you think it is – maybe you can quote specific shitos of LR that were affected by his college education. This will be interesting to review.
More generally, I – as everyone else – understand the emphasis on Torah learning in last several generations giving all physical and spiritual disasters we endured. Still, does this mean that a true T’Ch should not know anything about modern chochma? Look, gemora has discussions on all matters current to them – agriculture, medicine, politics – and rabbis are able to discuss minute details of those issues and pasken about them. Gemora knows how many tefahim roots of different trees grow to the side, etc. Not counting T’Ch who were actually involved in various businesses and trades – surely they knew what they were doing. Taanis says that a doctor was visited by yeshiva (sic!) shel maale more often than Abaye – for his middos and work ethics. Presumably, the yeshiva shel maala was already aware how ineffective that bloodletting was, but still credited the doctor for the effort …
Given the tremendous growth of chochma in our times, it is silly to say that knowledge of modern science and technology is not necessary.
@AAQ
do not think rav shach held chochma is ‘not necessary’
he did hold however that people and their worldviews are formed by their surroundings
for sure in their formative years
which is very simple and very correct
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.To yankel berel
John Lennon had a song called “Nowhere Man”. He sang, “Doesn’t have a point of view, knows not where he’s going to, isn’t he a bit like you and me?” That sums up AAQ. He latches on to some irrelevant factoid in order to avoid honestly discussing the subject. Obviously, it’s possible for a person to have a college education and be a Yirei Shomanyim. However, if someone makes questionable statements, we might assume that they came from his secular studies. Yesterday, VIN posted that Mamdani and Mandy Patinkin “celebrated” Chanukah together. Posters hurled the expected epithets at Patinkin who decries Israel’s illegal and brutal occupation of Gaza, but one Lubavich woman wrote, “There are so many Jews who are lost and confused because of the long, bitter Golus.” I told her to keep her Manis Friedman Kefirah to herself. Chabad was trained by the Rebbe to excuse every sinner. The sinners, of course, love Chabad, but the Torah demands that we speak out against those who distort its truth.
you are right re AAQ …
.yankel> do not think rav shach held chochma is ‘not necessary’
he did hold however that people and their worldviews are formed by their surroundings
for sure in their formative yearsfrom little I read, R Schach held that T’Ch should be always learning and this might be the source of criticism not just for those learning chochma but also involved in working with non-religious Jews? that would apply to a number of T’Ch. And also to Touro college – which is now pretty accepted in many charedi circles.
I did not read him on “formative years” (which ones are these – by Rashi and others it would be 16-24 for chinuch? LR was in his late 20s, I recall) – what does the Rav say?
But the main question that you did not answer yet – could you (or R Schach) point to specific examples where LR is (negatively) affected by his college knowledge. This will be interesting to analyze.
To yankel berel
Whether it’s YYA or AAQ or Shimon Katz, there’s one constant, a blanket refusal to discuss the facts. I’d like to focus on Shimon Katz, because he’s basically a Mensch. Mr. Katz acknowledges the issues with Chabad but chooses not to get into the fray because his only concern is with the Rebbe’s teachings, which he holds in the highest regard. I learn, using Artscroll Gemaras. When I’m stuck on a point, which happens on occasion, I go to this Lubavicher named Rabbi Zajac. He’s an outstanding Baal Masbir. Do I care if he believes the Rebbe is Moshiach? Not in the least. Do I care if he thinks the Rebbe was/is a Novi? Not at all. I don’t understand why Mr. Katz can’t continue learning the Rebbe’s Torah if he discovers that the things we’re saying about him are true. I grew up idolizing John Lennon. As I got older I learned that he was a lowlife. It didn’t make the slightest difference to me, because I’m only interested in his music. Would you care to comment?
1] there is a difference between listening to someones music and learning someones torah
on the other hand 2] music also carries a certain subtle message and people do get influenced
I never heard of lennon so I do not have an opinion
but 3] the late leader of habad was definitely not a ‘lowlife’
shabtai tzvi wasn’t either [not to compare the two – they both led very different lives , for sure at the end]
rav kuk wasn’t either [also not comparing – again]
would you learn the torah of rav kuk ?
some people would , some people would not
some people would differentiate between different areas of rav kuk’s torah
so what should one do with the torah of the late leader of habad ?
it should at the very least be treated with a ‘buyer beware’ label …
that’s my opinion for whatever it is worth
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Some thoughts on Chabad shluchim and their children, and my experience with them…
I’m a zeide living in Monsey. My family and I moved here 25 years ago. We raised our children here and, B”H, they are all married
with frum children of their own. But, if you would have known me when I was a younger man, those statements would have seemed preposterous
at the time. Raised in a secular family without a recognizable connection to any sort of Jewish identity, I was a classic candidate for being forever swallowed up by the culture within which I thrived. Reform Hebrew school consisted of raising funds to plant trees in E”Y, learning some Jewish history, being shown pictures of frum Yidden and told they were part of the past and no longer extent, and a bare-bones lessons in “Ivrit” to manage getting through a bar mitzvah aliyah.Nonetheless, I had always contemplated some deep questions about life, and years later decided to approach the local Jewish “clergy” for advice. Without exception, none could provide satisfactory answers to what they suggested were esoteric questions that were beyond the pale of their belief systems. Apparently, I had reached a Jewish dead end. And then, something unexpected occurred. Having never noticed it before, I drove by a house with a menorah on the lawn and a small sign stating “Chabad Lubavitch”. My curiosity was peeked, and I decided to look into this place.
The result was my meeting and befriending a family, who was sent by the Rebbe to seek out lost Yiddishe neshamas off in the spiritually-barren suburbs. The Rav and Rebbitzin were welcoming and the kids were amazing. All of them treated me as if I was a newly-discovered cousin. Throughout the years that I lived locally to this special family, it was clear that the mission that the Rav was charged with was shared by the entire family. The children were happy and healthy and filled with enthusiasm. The suburbs, despite the lack of legitimate Jewish resources or a kosher environment did not seem to take its toll on these kids. They were very inspiring to me, and still are. The boys went on to be shluchim and rebbes; the girls into frum woman. Most importantly, the Rav provided me with answers that opened the doors to a new world of learning and experiences that, over a period of many years, slowly transformed my direction in life.
Had it not been for the Rebbe’s audacious risk to send his chasidim and their families out to near and far-flung places across the globe, I, my wife, my children, and my grandchildren would have never arrived at the lives we now live.
Dovid
@capcom63
Your story was a very nice story up until the end when you made the silly statement that had not been for the rabbi’s risk you would not be frim. There are many messengers from G-d and any Jewish person who wants to do tshiva has the ability to do it regardless of anybody else’s choices The only reason you’re where you are today is because of choices you made Certainly the people who have helped you will get their reward but had they chosen differently would not have affected your tshiva in the least.
I’m not taking a side in the question of if they’re doing the right or wrong thing But certainly every BT is frim because of their own choices not because of the choices of anybody else.To capcom63
I am stridently anti-Lubavich but I readily acknowledge the good that it does. Are you willing to discuss the issues that have been raised about Chabad?
@capcom
for once I agree with somejew
.somejew> had they chosen differently would not have affected your tshiva in the least.
this idea has a basis on what Mordechai addresses Esther, but I am not sure whether this is true in each person’s case. And serves as a good excuse for people who do not see urgency of helping those Yidden.
Taking to it’s logical extreme this becomes fatalism – no reason to save people from fire or war, or help them do teshuva, Hashem will take care of that. That does seem like a different religion, but it also matches some of your opinions of not respecting those who were saving Jews either physically or spiritually.
To somejew
You’re making an excellent point which I’d like to expand on. The Gemara says that we thank the one who serves the wine, but we have to remember the One who owns the wine. capcom63 is correct when he shows Hakaros Hatov to the Rebbe for his outreach efforts, but of course he must understand that the Rebbe was simply Hashem’s shliach. I would like for capcom63 to comment to see whether he recognizes this basic principle, because many Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe functions independently of Hashem.
> Hakaros Hatov to the Rebbe for his outreach efforts, but of course he must understand that the Rebbe was simply Hashem’s shliach.
This is tedious and too frum too be true.
I presume if I open a door for you, you’ll remind me that it is Hashem doing it through me.
When your rebbe said a gut vort, you told him that it is Hashem’s Torah.Anyone in gemora talks like that? I think it is opposite – if you do not develop gratitude towards people, you for sure will not have it towards Hashem.
does anyone have an explanation for me on chabad i dont understand there logic they are obsessed with the lebavitcher rebbe who sat down and learned all daay and was kulo torah and respected all rabbis and gedolim and learned all sefarim that was considered torah and was a true anav, and they are obsessed with him to the point that they even believe that he is the mashiach and believe that he is still alive and is turning 125 years old soon. but on the other hand thay dont follow in his footsteps at all whatsover rather you see them on every corner trying to be some missionary for judaism and chabad and convincing everyone that there is no way except for the rebbes way and think that they are greater than every other jew they try fixing others before they fix themselves the least you could do is not put on tefillin to absolute goyim. there are goyim that hate jews now because they see signs all over the world that say ”the messiah is here” and this is the biggest hillul hashem the rebbe is crying right now in shamayim for what is being done to his name and i am not saying dont help people that are not so frum to realize hashem it is definetly a beatiful thing to do but this is not the way to do it by asking every goy if they put on teffillin because first of all its a huge hillul hashem second of all it is bittul zeman the torah is endless and one should be spending there time learning done spend 8 hours a day doing shlichus and not only learning tanya but also learning other gedolim sefarim like hachma ovadia yosef rav moshe feinstien ben ish chai the steipler these are all gedolim that clearly had a very strong connection to hashem and also deserve respect the torah is unlimited and our rabbis teach us that the biggest hessed that one could do is sit down and learn torah do you know that if one sat down and learned for six hours staright he probably has a much higher chance of saving many jews lives than the person that sits for 6 hours on the corner out sides with papers that say that the rebbe is mashiach.if anyone has a reason that this is wrong please tell me i would like to know
To Proud Sefaradi
A blessing on your head for your wonderful post. Hopefully, the Chabad apologists will have something to think about.
Proud Sefaradi said this about Chabad on 2025/12/29:
…you see them on every corner trying to be some
missionary for Judaism and Chabad and convincing everyone
that there is no way except for the rebbe’s way
and think that they are greater than every other Jew…__________________________________________
Proud Sefaradi said this about Chabad on 2025/12/29:…there are goyim that hate Jews now because
they see signs [made by Chabad] all over the world that say:
“the messiah is here” and this is the biggest Hillul HaShem.The rebbe is crying right now in shamayim for what is being done to his name…
__________________________________________
PERSONAL COMMENT:Proud Sefaradi’s comments are true and valid.
But Chabad will NEVER LISTEN,
because they are completely brainwashed.“on the other hand thay dont follow in his footsteps at all whatsover rather you see them on every corner trying to be some missionary for judaism… they try fixing others before they fix themselves the least you could do is not put on tefillin to absolute goyim…”
Based on the continuous comments about chabad, it becomes clear that there are different categories within those who post against chabad: 1. Those who believe that the Rebbe was a Gadol and did good work but his Chassidim took things in the wrong direction. 2. Those who believe that the rebbe was great and there are some Chabadnicks who follow his Derech while others took it in the wrong direction. 3. Those who believe differently about the Rebbe (I will not write it clearly).
Although those who write comments in the third category are doing something terrible (ביזוי תלמידי חכמים, לשון הרע etc.), they are at least consistent.
The first category may mean well, but they are making a basic mistake because anyone truly familiar with Chabad knows that the Chabad of today was completely designed by the Rebbe.
(As for the second category, I will not comment because this is a broad spectrum and many Chabadnicks themselves would probably be included in this category.)
To Square_Root
You’re right that Chabad won’t listen but it isn’t Chabad that we have to reach, it’s the non-Lubavichers who defend them . I hope that proud sefaradi is going to make them think
To yedl
I’d like to address two of your comments. First, I agree with your assessment that today’s iteration of Chabad was crafted by the Rebbe e.g. the belief that he’s Moshiach and that he’s a Novi etc. But you dismiss those who criticize the Rebbe by arguing that we’re guilty of committing terrible sins. Throughout Jewish history there have been Talmidei Chachamim who were challenged. Shabbetai Tzvi, Doeg and Eisav immediately come to mind, so how can you just write off those who have questioned the Rebbe’s positions?
there is a fourth category
who understand that their rebbe was great but still limited and in certain cases severely mistaken
and who could formulate a way of articulating this without on one hand being mevazeh people unnecessary and
on the other hand without giving him unearned immunity from crosschecking him with basic facts and basic logic
shabtai tzvi was great — by all accounts
otherwise he would not be able to garner the following of the majority of the jews in his time
including many famous rabbanim
great but still mistaken , …. severely mistaken
great does not mean … infallible
.Querty – what I wrote about the “first category” I wrote as a matter of fact. You can disagree, but I will not get involved in the endless conversation.
My main point was to address the quote I started with, which wants to separate the Rebbe from his Mivtzaim. Anyone who argues that the Rebbe did not want people to stand on street corners and try to get people who are totally unaffiliated to do just one Mitzvah has no idea what he is talking about. I think you can agree to that.To yedl
I totally agree with you. I once read that the Rebbe wrote to one of his early Shluchim who was disappointed because no one had shown up at his Chabad House. The Rebbe said (I’m repeating this from memory so the quote may not be 100% accurate), “If you’re at this place for fifty years and one Jew comes there and makes a Brocho on a can of cola this makes it worth your having been there.” The point is that Chabad, contrary to what we’re told, is not a Kiruv organization it’s a Mitzvah organization. Kiruv means bringing people close to Hashem. This demands total observance. That doesn’t mean that the person changes overnight, but that’s the ultimate goal. Chabad simply wants people to do Mitzvos but there’s no formal commitment to become Shomer Shabbos, keep Kosher etc. On occasion, that happens, but it’s the exception which proves the rule. I also agree with you about the first category. It was the Rebbe who created this brand of Judaism, where Mitzvohs are optional. Now that I’ve responded to your missive, would you care to comment on Yankel Berel’s post that there is a fourth group of Chabad critics, those who see the Rebbe as a great, but flawed individual?no
Querty – “Kiruv means bringing people close to Hashem. This demands total observance.”
Please explain: Are you saying that only someone who keeps Shulchan Aruch 100% is close to Hashem? That would mean that 99% of Frum Yidden are not close to Hashem.
Or are you saying that in order to be close to Hashem you need to be “Frum”? Please define Frum. (Everyone has their own definition).
The Shitah of Lubavitch (and I believe to some extent Chassidus in general) is that being close to Hashem is on Hashem’s terms, not on our terms.
We may give ourselves a pat on the back for being so “Frum”, but in Hashem’s eyes he may appreciate more the Bracha on a can of cola from someone who is making a Bracha for the first time in his life.
Obviously, we shouldn’t stop by one Bracha or putting on Tefillin once. Lubavitch does try to make people Frum. But the goal is not to give them the title “Frum”. the goal is for every Yid to do as many Mitzvos as possible, and the way to get someone to do the most Mitzvos is by making him Frum.
Querty – “Chabad simply wants people to do Mitzvos but there’s no formal commitment to become Shomer Shabbos, keep Kosher etc. On occasion, that happens, but it’s the exception which proves the rule.”
It should be obvious to you that it is a lot easier to get someone to do an occasional Mitzvah than to make them fully committed. Also, part of the Lubavitch Shitah is that the way to make someone Frum is by getting them to do a Mitzvah, which awakens their Neshama. So yes, the majority of people who attend Chabad Houses are not yet Frum, but there are thousands of people who did become Ba’alei Teshuvah through Chabad.
As I posted before, I myself am a grandchild of someone who became Frum through Lubavitch (and nothing has changed in the Lubavitcher Shitah of Kiruv since then) and I know many others like me.
To yedl
You ask me to define the word frum, so I’ll do my best. Chazal teach that Hashem and the Torah are one. This means many things but among them is that just as Hashem is indivisible so is the Torah. One cannot say that he believes in Hashem and in the Rebbe, as many Lubavichers do, so too one cannot say that he’ll keep those Mitzvohs that are to his liking. Does that mean that every frum Jew keeps the Torah perfectly? Certainly not. But, for example, if someone spoke Loshon Hora and then he said, “I’ll have to be more careful the next time, he demonstrates that he accepts the Mitzvoh in principle and so he would still qualify as frum. As to your point that it’s Chabad’s approach to take it one Mitzvoh at a time. I have no problem with that. What I take exception to is the propaganda that Chabad is Mikarev Yidden all over the world. Putting on Tefilin on a 90-year-old Mechallel isn’t Kiruv. It’s not a bad thing to do, perhaps, in that merit he’ll get Olam Habo, but it’s deceptive to claim that this is Kiruv.
Now that I’ve answered your questions, would you care to answer mine? Rabbi Manis Friedman has stated that no Jew today can be punished because of the long, bitter Golus? Do you agree with him? He also said that Mitzvahs are optional and we keep them because G-d has needs. Do you also agree with that statement?
Chabad simply wants people to do Mitzvos but there’s no formal commitment to become Shomer Shabbos, keep Kosher etc.
“‘You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.”
Chabad is being pragmatic. They can’t force Jews to be observant. They can only provide them with the opportunity and the resources.
qwerty> What I take exception to is the propaganda that Chabad is Mikarev Yidden all over the world. Putting on Tefilin on a 90-year-old Mechallel isn’t Kiruv.
Qwerty, you are going to Newcastle – not to sell your coal, but to tell them that their coal is not good enough?!
“kiruv” organizations attempted to copy what Chabad – and many community rabbis – was doing before them: talk to Jews where they are. I already quoted R Soloveitchik commending Chabad about these activities before the latest LR became the head of the movement. RJBS himself addressed that by talking to college students and trying to raise community rabbis so that they can lead small congregations all over the country
.
Majority of the communities that sponsor this “kiruv” are themselves not ready to worry about fellow Jews too close – but at least they can sponsor “kiruv” shluchim (which is great).Reducing their activities to putting tefilin on non-observant people is not fair (and why this “Ageism” anyway). This may be a visible transaction but a lot of chabad shluchim spend a lot of time raising their students (the best way they can – some fail in longer term, but the question then is – would they be better without chabad, and the answer seems to be “no”.
Querty – The answer to your questions is no.
(As a side point, I don’t think Chabad ever used the word Kiruv. The words commonly used in Chabad lingo are Mivtzoim, Shlichus, Ahavas Yisrael, and Teshuvah. I’m probably missing some, but you should get the picture.)
“You can lead a horse to a Farbrengen, and you can also make him drink”. I’m only half joking.
Querty – I know you are obsessed with Manis so I have a little secret to tell you: I don’t think he himself believes in those statements. Manis likes to say things which will catch people’s attention, that’s all. I’m not saying I agree with his approach. I was never a fan of his. But I think you give him too much credit for being a Kofer.
That is one of the major differences between habad and the other outreach organizations
the other orgs accompany the person during the entire journey whereas habad concentrate on the mitsva actions
the other orgs are also pragmatic
they just have different priorities
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.To DovidBT
I’m not disagreeing with you. My point is that Chabad and its supporters constantly conflate Kiruv and getting people to do Mitzvahs. So, we’re told that they are Mikarev Yidden all over the world and it’s not true. They try to get Jews to do Mitzvohs. That’s a good thing, but they should be truthful as to their actual mission statement.
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