Is Chabad Sacrificing Their Youth In The Quest For Outreach

To yankel; berel and square root

Shimon Katz and yedl are both good guys and they’re exceedingly bright, so why can’t we get through to them? For many years I had a close relationship with Rabbi Miller’s Talmid Muvhak. I eventually had to part ways with him because of Chabad. He refused to listen to anything I said because Rabbi Miller liked Chabd and the Rebbe and that was all she wrote. Shimon and yedl have their reasons for being attached to Chabad and the Rebbe and so they’re hopelessly lost.

To Shimon Katz

It’s Sanhedrin 111a. Rava says that only 1/300,000 Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach.

@shimon kats

I heard multiple times from chashuve upstanding habadi’s that their rebbi is greater than moshe rabenu

they told me that in all sincerity

I cannot imagine anyone in the last 3000 years of jewish history saying that about his rebbi .

who else said that about their leader ?

the only person I can think of is someone who lehavdil also claimed he had no earthly father ….

they also told me that their leader is not in gan eden …..

correct me if wrong ….

yankel berel – “I heard multiple times from chashuve upstanding habadi’s that their rebbi is greater than moshe rabenu”.

1. Is one of them querty’s chasuve chabad rabbi who totally misread the letter we discussed recently?

2. לגופו של ענין: You obviously think that calling the Rebbe Moshiach a ridiculous, but you know that many Lubavitchers believe so. Now I believe it is clearly written that in certain aspects (NOT nevuah – which would be against עיקרי הדת ) Moshiach will be greater than Moshe Rabeinu (I will not look up sources now, but I think this is pretty clear in the Rambam Hichos Tshuvah 9,2. See also likutei Torah Parshas Bamidbar) so what’s the big deal? It is just another way of saying that the Rebbe is Moshiach. (I understand that you think that is a big deal, but that has been discussed many times and your post is not adding anything to the conversation which we did not know.)

SQUARE_ROOT said – The Chabad Rebbe succeeded in being mekarev less than 5% of non-observant Jews.

Mind boggling שבח you just said. Like saying להבדיל, that Elon Musk ONLY succeeded in amassing less than 0.1% of the world’s supply of money in his personal portfolio… But I agree that the real Moshiach will be mekarev 100% of Klal Yisroel איש לא נעדר, AND be richer than Musk…

@yedl
I’m greater than Moshe Rebaini in number of CR comments!

To Shimon Katz

I’d like to respond to your latest post. My former Rosh Yeshiva is a genius. He graduated MIT and became an MD. I consider myself to be of average intelligence. In addition I saw your post on ujm’s math thread and I was duly impressed. So yes you’re both “smarter” than me, but neither of you can match my logical skills nor my devotion to truth. You argued that I should have accepted what he said because he’s smarter than me. Let me share two stories. When he saw that I was getting annoyed he approached me and said,”Do you agree that Chabad does some good?” I said, “Of course and then I asked him if Chabad does anything wrong.” He said, “No, every Lubavicher is perfect.” I’ll share a second story. Mike Bloomberg won the first Genesis Prize in 2014 as the world’s best Jew. The Jewish Week protested his selection on many grounds but Shmuel Butman came to his defense. He wrote a letter praising him as a wonderful committed Jew stating that he lit his Menorah every year that he was mayor. He then added that the Rebbe taught us to see the good in every Jew. My Rosh Yeshiva knew Bloomberg from MIT and he often told us that he hated him. So I showed him the letter that Butman wrote. As I assumed he cursed out Butman. I then said, “He’s one of Chabad’s five most influential Rabbis.” He responded, “That’s nonsense. No one in Chabad ever heard of him.” I said, “That’s hard to believe since he’s hosted a radio show for the last 20 years.” He then ended the discussion,”No Lubavicher has a radio in his house.” It’s not that my Rosh Yeshiva didn’t listen to.me it’s that he wouldn’t listen to me because he couldn’t question anything that Rabbi . Miller said. My present Rav is Rav Moshe Plutchok. He’s beyond a genius but he’s also sensible He said, “Millerites and Lubavichers are cult members they aren’t Jews,” That makes you a cultist and so there’s no getting through to you. But I do like you and I still appreciate how you eliminated YYA. I hate his guts.

@shimon

what was the kushyia on rav friedman , remind me please ?
.

querty,

I don’t know what to tell you. I’ve met hundreds of Lubavitchers throughout my life, I never heard anyone say these types of things. You have a talent in meeting all the crazies. If I had the same exposure to Chabad as you, I would also be against it.

Tell me, have you ever met a normal Lubavitcher?

What’s the issue that the rebbe is greater than moshe rabeinu?
It’s a clear medrash אין דור שאין בו כמשה
So the rebbe is equal and what is the big difference between equal and a bit greater????

To yedl

I would be happy to respond to your post except for one problem, I have no idea what you mean by a crazy Lubavicher versus a normal Lubavicher. Please clarify that point. I know that their most respected Rabbi has declared that one can do any sin, and do it intentionally, and nothing will happen to him and no one in Chabad has challenged him.

To sechel83

Welcome back. I’m amazed that you’ve been able to stand on the sideline for so long. Now let’s deal with your points. The pshatim that Chabad has invented on that Gemara are accepted by no one outside of CH and by Chabad shills, but let’s put that aside because there’s a much clearer proof that the Rebbe was a Kofer. As yankel berel pointed out, the SMAG definitively ruled, there’s no Nevuah until Moshiach comes and the Rebbe stated that the Rayatz was a Novi. Now I’d like to address your last point. First, your logic fails me. What connection is there between my arguing with my Rosh Yeshiva and the Rebbe being greater than Moshe Rabbeinu Chas Vesholom? But that’s not my real concern. You’ve introduced a critical difference between Chassidim and Misnagdim. You accept anything your Rebbe said, because you have no choice, but I have every right to challenge my Rov. Since he refused to deal with me as an equal, I left him and found another Rov.

Dear Dr. Yaakov.

If your problem was only with Chabad, then I could understand that, even if I disagree. (I also don’t appreciate you saying that I defend my “god” ר״ל. I am not a Lubavitcher myself [not that they have a different “god” ר״ל], and I learn the works of many Chassidish and non-Chassidish Gedolim, including those opposed to Chabad.) But if you also call “Millerites(?)” “not Jews”, then there is a pattern here which suggests that there is a bigger issue going on. Judaism is not about “every man and his truth”. We defer to authority and we defer to Mesorah. Who, what, how, how much, etc., can be debated. But not the basic יסוד. Otherwise each individual or each congregation in Cedarhurst or wherever would have to go up a hill and build a Bamah and come up with their own Judaism. I don’t think that is what Rabbi Plutchik had in mind. Ask him what he thinks about my comments, I would appreciate it. The early Maskilim were convinced that they had discovered the “truth”, which they held to be self-evident. Turns out that “self-evident” is a very dangerous phrase. So, yes, we do defer to authority, and that makes us Jews, not cult members ר״ל.

Dear Dr. Qwerty Seeker of Truth.

If you are genuinely unbiased and unswayed by anything but the objective truth, so why do you “hate his [i.e. my] guts” (an איסור דאורייתא) for saying the EXACT SAME things as Shimon Katz? Unless you are offended by the tone I used, which has nothing to do with the truth or fallacy of anything I said. So you may be more vulnerable than you think to being mistaken about what is or isn’t true…

To TheWizard

Let’s follow your logic. You’re arguing that I should accept Rabbi Miller’s opinion regarding Chabad over that of Rabbi Plutchok because the former was a Gadol and Rabbi Plutchok is a mere shul Rav. Well, I would then ask you why you are putting your trust in Rabbi Miller who was only a Gadol, as compared to Rav Shach who was the Gadol Hador? If that approach doesn’t satisfy you, I’ll use a different line of reasoning. One of Rav Moshe’s grandsons is my patient. He’s a big Chassid of Rabbi Miller, but he hates Chabad. How can that be? The answer is that we’re Lower East Siders and we use our own minds to make our decisions. You seem to think that I became anti-Chabad because of Rabbi Plutchok. No, I met Rabbi Plutchok about 12 years ago, but I’ve been anti-Chabad for 25 years. If you’d like to continue this discussion, feel free to write, but you should learn how to show me a modicum of respect. I’m probably twice your age and definitely four times more intelligent than you.

To YYA

On Dec 3, 2025 Shimon Katz wrote that the Chabad belief that the Rebbe is Moshiach is factually wrong and dangerous. Since you’re claiming that you and Mr. Katz are in lockstep, please provide the post in which you articulated that exact position.

sechel

where is this medresh ?

To Qwerty

Since I am not Lubavitch why would I be presumed to think that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is Moshiach until I explicitly say I don’t? But for the record, yes, it is factually incorrect and very dangerous Hashkafically (maybe even Halachically) to say anyone is Moshiach, certainly someone no longer alive, such as the Lubavitcher Rebbe זצ״ל. That doesn’t give anyone a היתר to speak disrespectfully. The most ever מותר for people like us to say would be “Rav Shach זצ״ל said X”. Or maybe not even that. A new Sefer just came out from a close talmid of Rav Shach זצ״ל called בסערת אש. It contains many interesting שיחות and הנהגות. Once someone spoke badly in front of Rav Shach about Rabbi Goren (of mamzerim fame). Rav Shach asked him to stop. He asked why, seeing as Rav Shach was one of the most outspoken opponents of Rabbi Goren during that episode. He said “Yes, it was necessary to speak. But we already spoke enough.” So there are limits to this sort of thing.

To YYA

Fine now we’re good. You could’ve avoided all this acrimony by simply saying this last year when Yankel Berel challenged you. I hear what you’re saying about attacking the Rebbe. Let me share what Rabbi Plutchok said, “Yaakov, everything you think about Chabad and the Rebbe is true but keep it to yourself.” The reason I’m so strident is because of the statements coming from the other side, be it from Chabad or from their supporters. As I’ve said on numerous occasions, I’m not trying to get through to the Lubavichers. They are idolaters and/or cult members and so they can’t be reached. What irks me is when non-Lubavicher supporters try to defend this indefensible movement by saying things like there are a handful of crazies, but all the others are normal. I have extensive dealings with Chabad, and they’re all drunk on the Rebbe Kool-Aid. As a show of good faith, I’ll try to tone down the rhetoric. I’m impressed that you apologized, and to reiterate I like Lubavichers, I just dislike Chbad’s false beliefs.

To yankel berel

Thank you. Some of the things he’s said in the past were true, so I thought that perhaps there was such a Midrash. Of course, even if such a Midrash existed it would be totally irrelevant. Lubavichers are idolaters and so they’ll make up anything to convince themselves that their lies are true.

querty – “Yedl likes to play the crazy game. You know, there are some crazy Lubavichers but they don’t represent mainstream Chabad.”

I will try to clarify what I stated already, because it seems that you did not understand (or you chose to not understand, or you are intentionally manipulating my words):

I have no interest in arguing on this forum about opinions. I think any such argument in such an environment is endless and useless. That is why I stated many times that I have no problem with you having whatever opinion you want and I will not argue. I only argued about things which are factually false or when you tried to put words into my mouth.

I don’t think that everyone who thinks the Rebbe is Moshiach is crazy, and I never said anything like that (I think I wrote more than once that this is the belief of a large percent of Chabad). All I said is that you are entitled to believe that they are crazy, and I will not argue with you. I did say that I think people which make a path for the Rebbe are crazy, and that this group is a very small minority, and I proved that point from the facts on the ground.

Someone who makes a statement like “We see in the Torah that Moshe had a bad temper that he couldn’t control, but the Rebbe never got angry” is obviously crazy, and he probably belongs to this small group which I mentioned. I’ve spoken to hundreds of Lubavitchers and I never heard anyone say anything remotely similar to this (on the contrary, this is one of the arguments against Lubavitch, which like to explain (based on Tanya) that a Tzaddik cannot do an Aveira. Ask yankel berel about it). As I once wrote, I once met a Lubavitcher who claimed that he is the Rebbe and god. This did not make me view Lubavitch negatively, I understand that he needs to start taking his meds again.

I hope I was clear enough.

To yedl

Thank you for your thoughtful post. I think we disagree in the way we characterize crazy. I don’t think that a Lubavicher who says that the Rebbe is/was greater than Moshe Rabbeinu is crazy. I believe that this is the Chabad “educational” system at work. The other day Seichel83 “proved” that the Rebbe is greater than Moshe (I say is because last year he cited a Psak of 100 Chabad Rabbis who decided that the Rebbe is Moshiach, that he’s a Novi and that he’s alive.) I don’t think that Sechel is crazy because he has presented cogent arguments in the past. Let me buttress my point with two incidents. The Rabbi of the Chabad shul I attend is a very fine person. He’s exceptionally bright and is raising a big, beautiful family however he said the following three things. I asked him when the Moshiach business started and he said, “In 1951 when the Rebbe took over, he announced he’s Moshiach so that’s it.” On another occasion he said, “The Rebbe shut down Gehinnom when he became Moshiach.” Finally, he’s the one who said that the Rebbe had a dream at three years old and decided he’s Moshiach.” Another story. This Rabbi’s cousin asked me if I read Dr. Berger’s book. I said yes so, he asked me to tell him something from it. I told him that Dr. Berger wrote that 8 Rabbis from Oholei Torah said the Rebbe is god clothed in human form. He responded, “So what’s wrong with that? I can prove it. We know that every Jew has a spark of Elokus. Rashi says that Moshe was equal to all of Israel, so he had all those sparks. Since the Rebbe is the Moshe Rabbeinu of our generation, he has the sparks of every Jew who ever lived. When you add up all those sparks, you have Hashem.” He too is a very bright, successful fellow raising a large family and so I would not call him crazy. I believe that the norm, by which I mean typical Lubavitcher, is brainwashed into believing that the Rebbe was a deity and so these comments are not exceptional. That’s why I’m convinced that there is no hope for Chabad. I think we basically agree with each other and it’s really semantics that we’re arguing about. Please feel free to write and we can continue this discussion. I consider you a mentsch.

In simple words: I will not try to explain Chabad’s opinions, but I can tell you what is not Chabad’s opinion.

To Yankel Berel

You’re preaching to the choir. I didn’t introduce the “crazy” issue, that was yedl. He insinuated that I found a handful of crazy Lubavitchers and then defamed the entire group. I’m fully aware that the rank-and-file Lubavitcher has been trained to believe that the Rebbe is a deity.

@qwerty

I seem to forget who said what …

.

If the rebbe was a kofer for rejecting a ramban about Nevuah (even though as stated before the rambam in igeres taimon says Nevuah will return before)
Then I guess you would say the Vilna gaon, the rogetchover were also kofrim as they argued with rishonim

Examples of the Vilna gaon arguing with rishonim (according to qwerty that would make him a kofer ch”v)
Disagreement with the Rambam regarding Blessings (“Long or Short”): In his commentary to the Shulchan Aruch, the Gra rejects the Rambam’s interpretation of the Mishna regarding the length of certain blessings. While other Rishonim understood “long and short” as a technical, qualitative difference, the Rambam (in his commentary) took a different approach. The Gra argues that the Rambam in his code (Mishneh Torah) retracted his earlier view and that the phrase “to lengthen or to shorten” should be taken literally, and that the Rambam’s view was not in line with the Yerushalmi.
Correction of the Rambam on Niddah/Zavah: The Gra argued that the Rambam’s understanding of the alternating days for niddah and zavah was incorrect and did not follow the proper talmudic, leading to the Chatam Sofer noting that in some issues, the Rambam’s view was considered “rejected”.
Rejection of the Rashba on Prayer: Regarding changes to the wording of blessings, the Gra rejects the lenient view of the Rashba, which allowed for significant changes to the established wording of blessings.
Argument regarding the Third Meal on Yom Tov: The Rif and Rambam rule that a third meal is required on Yom Tov, just as on Shabbat. The Rosh disagrees. The Gra, in his commentary, sides against the Rif and Rambam, bringing support from the Yerushalmi that a third meal was not eaten on Yom Tov, even in Temple times.
Opposition to the Rambam regarding Tombstones: The Rambam (Laws of Mourning 4:4) argues that a tombstone should not be placed on the grave of a righteous person, as “their words are their memory.” The Gra’s approach, as later interpreted by others, stands in contrast to this, with some, like R’ Moshe Feinstein, arguing that the Rambam actually implies it is forbidden to place a tombstone, which is a position the Gra, in his practical application, did not follow.
Needless to say I accept chazal that Adam Harishon had relations with every animal (seems like you’re the kofer)

@qwerty
the vilna goan argued with rishonim , thats true

but that has no bearing at all on habads shenanigans

Who decides what’s literal , what’s arguable ? Qwerty?
The creation was very different before chet etz Hadaas. Adam was created a full grown man, had children the same day etc.
So finally we agree that arguing with a rishon doesn’t make someone a kofer correct?