Is Chabad Sacrificing Their Youth In The Quest For Outreach

… Chabad is great, but, at the same time, it’s an invalid expression of Judaism?

Why is it an invalid expression of Judaism?

To DovidBT

There are no questions about Chabad’s Mitzvah performance. That’s impeccable. The problem is the belief system that they’re espousing. It’s a major concern to say the Rebbe is Moshiach, that he’s a Novi, that he runs the world and that he’s god clothed in human form.

To yedl

I apologize for calling you a liar. I would argue that you have no basis upon which to posit that Manis doesn’t mean what he said. He was interviewed by Rabbi Efren Goldberg who challenged him on his statement that Mitzvahs are optional and he refused to recant. I’m impressed that both you and DovidBT have continued the discussion. Generally those who defend Chabad offer one argument and when it’s refuted they disappear.

@qwerty613

really “There are no questions about Chabad’s Mitzvah performance. That’s impeccable.”???

How many Gedolim, litvish and chassidish, cried rivers because of their brazen tefillin campaigns that have caused so much destruction? How much has been written about the fallacy of “kiriv”, encouraging mimarim to defile holy mitzvos by doing the “lo lishma” with no intent to do them lishma? how many balei tshiva have been led astray with faux-Chabad’s faux teachings of “ahavas hareshoyim” and “Hashem understands” if you can’t do mitzvos, and they are “just good things to do” anyway, chas v’shulem!

really? no questions?

It seems that according to somejewiknow, querty is a Chabad apologist. lol

To yedl

I’m really impressed. You’re an Ish Emes and that’s rare these days.

To DovidBT

Who is the Chabad leadership? Shlomo Cunin, chief Chabad Rabbi of California? He said that the Rebbe runs the world. How about Manis Friedman. The official head of Chabad is Krinsky but the next time he makes a statement will be the first. I don’t mean to be nasty with you. You seem like a decent fellow, but you have to face the truth.

To somejewiknow

I understand your position, and it has some validity, but it’s not the Derech that I choose to follow. To simply dismiss Chabad as worthless is to ignore the good that they’ve done. Jews need to be able to speak to each other in an open and honest manner, respecting each other’s views. Again, I agree with you that it’s wrong when Chabad celebrates putting Tefilin on an ausvorf like Aharon Barak, but I only attack Manis Friedman because he openly said that one can do any Aveirah and nothing will happen to him.

@qwerty613
I didn’t in any way say or intend an implication that chabad is worthless. there is certainly much good in the classic chabad teachings. so too there seem to be many sincere yiden that are in chabad, getting influence from both the good and the bad. Perhaps they are tinokes shenishbu like the “modern orthodox”.

To yedl

The first claim may not be Kefirah, but it violates the principle of Al Tifrosh Min Hatzibbur. No Jew outside of Chabad believes the Rebbe was, is or will be Moshiach, yet the overwhelming majority of Lubavichers do believe it. That’s a problem. To believe the Rebbe is a Novi is Kefirah, but all the Lubavichers who accept that the Rebbe is Moshiach do so because they believe that Hashem anointed the Rebbe when he was three years old. As for the last two claims, you argue that only mentally unstable Lubavichers believe that. Well, Rabbi Shlomo Cunin is the head of Chabad of California and he stated that the Rebbe runs the world and “HE” will take us out of Golus. I’ll agree with you that he’s insane, but why hasn’t he been removed or censured? Finally, we have the belief that the Rebbe is god clothed in human form. About ten years ago a Lubavich Rabbi with whom I’m friendly asked me if I had read Dr. Berger’s book. When I told him yes he asked me to pick out a particular point. I told him that Dr. Berger said that 8 senior Rabbis from Oholei Torah declared that the Rebbe was god clothed in human form. My friend responded, “So what’s wrong with that? I can prove it.” He then explained as follows: We know that every Jew has a spark of Elokus, and Rashi said that Moshe Rabbeinu was equal to all the Jews so that means that he had the sparks of Elokus of all 600,000 Jews. Now the Rebbe is the Moshe Rabbeinu of our generation and so he has the sparks of every Jew who ever lived and this equals Hashem. I can assure you that this fellow isn’t crazy. When the Lubavichers are together they invent these insane ideas to justify their deification of the Rebbe. If you can honestly say that you have no issues with the Chabad belief system then you have a much bigger problem than somejewiknow.

To somejewiknow

You obviously think that the modern orthodox don’t represent a valid form of Yiddishkeit. Could you tell me what, in particular, bothers you about them? Also, in doing so, please explain your definition of Modern Orthodox.

to yedl and DovidBT

It looks like we’ve come to a parting of the ways. That’s too bad because I enjoyed our exchanges. To your credit, you both acted civilly and so we can be friends even though we’re obviously quite far apart on the subject of Chabad.

yedl,

It’s time for you to acknowledge that nearly thirty-two years after the passing of the Rebbe, zt”l, it’s absolutely nuts to insist that he’s mashiach, which most of Lubavitch still believes. The “answer” to why Mashiach can’t been Daniel or David Hamelech if Mashiach can come from those no longer living was that “he has to be from the same generation”. That’s now expired and no longer the case.

Worse is the large number of “mentally unstable” elokists you’d have us believe are a minority. Even the most “sane” of the movement constantly blather that tone-deaf “kiddush lubavitch” phrase. Your movement may do wonderful work but the number of suicides alone should be a wake-up call that it’s time to return to authentic Judaism!

@moshe goldwasser

the idea of the ‘veltishe’ kiruv orgs [who definitely have a different outlook than habad]

did absolutely not ‘come from’ habad !!!

this is classic false habad propaganda

used to brainwash its adherents
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To yankel berel

Excellent point as usual. Chabad likes to say that it invented Kiruv and the other Kiruv organizations copied them. It’s an outright lie. NCSY began in 1954. while the first Chabad House was established in 1969. Moreover, calling Chabad outreach Kiruv, is a misnomer. Kiruv means bringing people close to Hashem by teaching them to become fully observant. It includes explaining the concepts of reward and punishment. Chabad rejects these basic principles of our faith. What they preach is Mitzvah observance. It’s a good thing but it isn’t Kiruv.

To GadolHadofi

I love it when people get right to the point and speak the unvarnished truth. We have a number of Chabad apologists in this thread, and we wonder why they can’t see what’s obvious to us. Chabad is an idolatrous religion, to what extent is for Hashem to decide. Rabbi Akiva said that those who support idolatry, are themselves idolaters, and this explains why these well-meaning fools twist themselves like a pretzel to defend Chabad’s abuses of our faith.

to somejewiknow

And there are Chassidim who casually steal from the government and some who casually consort with women other than their wives so let’s be careful about attacking other groups of Jews. I agree that there are Jews who are far from observant, and they justify their behavior by claiming to be Modern Orthodox. They think that this is a Heter. This is a Yetzer Hora argument. No matter a Jew’s affiliation, there’s one Torah. You either keep it, or you don’t. The reason I rail against Chabad is because they have officially declared that we no longer have an obligation to keep the Mitzvahs, rather it’s a person’s choice whether or not to do so.

@qwerty613
I was attacking the crooked part of a crooked ideology. that can (and should) be done for any group that is promoting a mistake, either intentionally or otherwise.

I don’t follow your pseudo-logic of “so let’s be”, what does the first half of that statement have to do with the later half?

> “Ploni is wrong”
> “But Almony is also wrong, so be careful who you call wrong”
HUH ??? this doesn’t make sense to me.

If you see someone making a mistake publicly, call it out.

To yedl

Have you ever met a Lubavicher who thinks the Rebbe was a Novi? You certainly have, because all who think the Rebbe is Moshiach also think he’s a Novi. To believe that the Rebbe is a Novi runs counter to our Mesorah. But that obviously doesn’t bother you because you think that the Rebbe has the right to countermand the Torah. And what about those who believe he’s still alive? Do you want to try to convince us that there’s only two or three people like that? You can continue spreading the blarney that there’s just a few crazies who give Chabad a bad name, but no one’s buying that. When Schneerson died the Meshichistas emerged. Mainstream Jewry was assured that they comprise only a small handful. Obviously, they were lying. Those who challenge Chabad know what we’re talking about and so your lame arguments won’t dissuade us. Since you seem to be connected, it would behoove you to get a movement started to depose the Rebbe and return Chabad to what it used to be, a very viable Chassidus.

To aaq

We’re discussing the present iteration of Chabad as derived from their last Rebbe, so why do you tell us about the previous Rebbe?

To somejewiknow

I don’t understand your point please clarify.

@qwerty613
I criticized the bad things common in MO today. You responded that there are other jews who do bad things. And you said that I should be careful about calling out such bad things.

to quote exactly what you wrote:

And there are Chassidim who casually … so let’s be careful about attacking other groups of Jews.
</bockquote>
I don’t understand why the failings of any other Jews should demand I “be careful”. Careful of what? Also calling out their bad behavior?

[BTW, I disagree with your public tochacha of “chassidim” as you wrote it, which is why i replaced the motei shem ru with ellipsis. Those unnamed “chassidim” could be anyone, and you are painting the whole general population of “chassidim” with that brush. This could be valid criticism if the bad behavior was something endorsed widely by ANY of the many formal groups that claim the title “Chassidim”, but they certainly do not. Not only that, the sins you mentioned are not only NOT endorsed by any chassidic groups, they are already clearly and adamantly recognized as bad behavior and officially rejected by all those groups and sub-groups as well as all their theological leaders. Contrast this to the many groups and leaders that claim themselves MO who support and endorse the aforementioned sins and whose students practice that heresy in their names. ]

To aaq

You’re missing the point. Chabad like to brag that they invented Kiruv and mainstream Kiruv developed because they were copying what Chabad was doing. The facts don’t justify their conclusion since NCSY preceded the first Chabad house by 15 years. You’re suggesting that there were individual Lubavichers who were doing kiruv before 1969. That’s certainly possible, but there’s no reason to assume that there was no mainstream Kiruv before 1954. Yankel Berel and I are simply challenging Chabad’s assertion.

To somejewiknow

I was simply responding to your point. Rav Herschel Schachter and Rav Mordechai Willig are two of the great leaders of Modern Orthodoxy and they have never, Chas Vsholom, endorsed any deviation in Halacha or in our tradition. If there are individuals who are calling themselves Modern Orthodox who are violating Halacha, this is not a reflection of Modern Orthodoxy, just as an individual Chassid who’s convicted of some white-collar crime doesn’t prove that all Chassidim are thieves.

To yedl

Since you agree that there are issues within Chabad, we’re good. It’s not necessary for us to be perfectly aligned. My beef has always been with the YYA’s of the world who refuse to acknowledge that there’s anything wrong with Chabad and use any type of deceitful tactics to win the day.

AAQ – saw your last post acknowledging the Rayatz’s role. Actually, what you described was already going on in the time of the Mitteler Rebbe Rebbe Dov Ber 200 years ago. Permanent Shlichus began in the ’40s, mostly around the East Coast, and then spread out and beyond. He also sent Shluchim to Morocco, Tunisia, and other Sephardic countries. This is aside from his Shlichim inside the Soviet Union. Read the excellent new book ‘Undaunted’ about the life of the Rayatz for more details.

To Shimon Katz

As to your contention that Chabad invented Kiruv in America, that’s not something worth arguing about, so if it will make you happy, I’ll concede that point. On the other hand, it’s totally disingenuous for you to claim that the present form of Chabad is simply a continuation of the Rayatz’ work. As Rabbi Herschel Schachter said, when he was interviewed by Dovid Lichtenstein, “Many Lubavichers daven to the Rebbe instead of to Hashem and this is Avodah Zarah.” This was not true under the Rayatz. Nor did we have a Manis Friedman stating that Mitzvahs are optional and that no Jew can be punished today no matter what sin he commits. Yedl acknowledged that there are serious issues in CH, and he’s quite aware of what’s going on. On a personal note, I appreciate what you did for me in helping to eliminate YYA from this thread, but if you shill for Chabad, I will challenge you.

Shimon katz

seem to remember that rayats had his gripes about his son in law according to shimon deuts’hs biography about the late leader of habad …

there is much more to the story than your simplistic propaganda version , ….
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To yedl

Reread your last post. You clearly acknowledge that there are crazies in Chabad. That’s something that the shills like Shimon Katz and YYA refuse to admit.
Frankly I don’t understand why this discussion still has legs. Shlomo Cunin announced that the Rebbe runs the world, and we know Manis said. Despite what they would have the masses believe, G-d still very much exists, and He demands the truth from His children. Chabad must end this deification of the Rebbe. He was no different than any other person who ever lived. He should be respected like other great men who lived and then died. Your excuse, which is quite popular among apologists is that there are a handful is crazies doesn’t wash. I have extensive dealings with Lubavichers and they clearly deify the Rebbe. I like you but you’ve earned a Checkmate.

To yankel berel

Rabbi Deitsch is public enemy number one according to Chabad. When he was living in CH, he faced death threats and so he had to move to Boro Park. Chabad is the greatest proof of the power of Sheker. Satan sees that Moshiach’s arrival is close and so he’s using Chabad as a buffer to keep him away. It’s not about intelligence. Shimon Katz, yedl and YYA are very smart, quite likely smarter than you and I, but they lie because Schneersohn is their god and they can’t let him go.

Dr. Yaakov זאל זיין געזונט

WADR, I am not ‘shilling’ for anyone. Nothing that I said is a secret or in need of verification. As mentioned before, I don’t care about what Rabbi Manis Friedman did or didn’t say or mean. (Although I suspect that he isn’t really a kofer…) If you care enough, his publicly listed cellphone number is 1-973-449-6777. Call him and ask. I believe ‘Atzmut Mahutniks/Elokistim’ do exist, but I have never met one in real life, and apparently neither did you, despite both of us knowing many Lubavitchers. So I am skeptical as to how many there really are. If you can find one, I have plenty to ask him…

@shimon kats

I wrote that this is ‘propaganda’ because that is standard fare in hasiduyot to claim that each successor is a seamless continuation of the previous leader

yes it is more or less the same minhagim the same buildings the same nigunim etcetera

so it looks and appears the same

but when there is a change of personnel at the top

in essence the whole system changes

because the system is a mirror of the personality of the leader

and that changed ….

—-

if daitsh thought that publishing his book will help him in his supposed agenda , then he would be quite silly in my eyes …

this book did nothing for his supposed agenda

if anything , it caused him only trouble

daitsh did a great service to the world in providing many historical facts which are required knowledge when faced with habad deification mass brainwash attempts

there were differences between rayats and his second son in law

rayats did not agree to his stance re Erets Yisrael

rayats did not agree with his extensive university studies

rayats agreed to the shidduch because his second daughter was more open or ‘modern’

the mass deification programs in habad are a clear result of their late leaders deliberate policy

rayats never agreed to such a policy , nor did he ever cultivate such a thing

querty,

First of all, congratulations on winning the chess game.

That aside, I did acknowledge that there are a handful of crazies in Chabad. I don’t consider that a problem with Chabad. I think it is quite understandable that when you have a large population, a certain percent will be crazy. I was very specific about who I called crazy. The people who fall into that category are only a small fraction of Chabad (this is not something you can argue about. you can go to 770 on any given day and see how many people actually make a path for the rebbe (or wait on line to get dollars) even during the month of Tishrei. Now compare that to the hours long line during the entire 24 hours of 3 Tamus at the Ohel. Or you can compare the amount of people in the Ohel on any random day to the amount of people on that same day making a path for the Rebbe. Or you can compare the amount of people making a path to the amount of people in 770 at the time. I think I made my point clear enough).

Again, you are entitled to call a larger percent of Chabad crazy, but don’t put those words into my mouth.

qwerty – The bigger problem is the Chabad lie propagated by the Rebbe that every Jew will be redeemed by Moshiach. That flies in the face of an open Gemara.

Which Gemara?

I think Yedl’s last post sums up the issue well.