Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha

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  • #1413570
    litvisherchossid
    Participant

    @770chabad-“Looking at a Rebbe picture before daavening each morning add more chayis to your day and strengthens your yiddishkeit and chassiddishkeit.
    Also drawing pictures of tzaddikim helps”.

    My Answer-uh, wow? Why before davening shouldnt it be as soon as your saying modei Ani? Or while your saying it? Also do you need to be an artist or can anyone just draw pictures of tzaddikim?

    Also seems your fellow lubavitcher told you to hush about those chabad secrets and not share them on this site. So thanks for letting out a chabad secret.

    ^Doesnt the “Yaakov lo meis” pasuk go on to say “כשם שזרעו בחיים כך הוא בחיים”?
    Isnt that spiritual and can go for any gadol? And even if it means physical or that you believe so, whats the difference? Does anyone even know what it means when someone leaves the world but is really in this world in a physical body? Im sure most people arent on the level that it would make any difference to them.

    In general I honestly dont blame lubavitchers for being so close minded. I recently saw on their site that some “chabad” chazzan will be singing/chazzening at the lincoln square synagogue. This makes everyone think that he is the only chazzon there and its always chabad on top.
    Every time some politician meets with chabad then suddenly “friend of lubavitch!” “hes the best vote for him!” They chant. “KIDDUSH CHABAD KIDDUSH LUBAVITCH!!”
    What about all the non chabad chazzanim that are elected for shuls? What about all the politicians who meet with non chabad are they now all friends of satmar,litvishe,belz,brisk,spinka,breslov,vishnitz,gur etc.?
    Deblasio went to a chasuna in boro park. WOW hes a friend of boro park chasiddim!

    When you are constantly fed news about yourself which is portrayed as significant and unique to you(chabad) you think you have conquered the world and own it. Every time something good happens and a chabadnick is involved they point it out regardless of if the same happened involving 20 litvishers.

    A lubavitch doctor, a chabad chazzon, a shliach, Oh the MAGIC OF CHABAD!
    When its a litvish doctor, chazzon, Rabbi or anything, it doesnt even make it to the news sites since in the litvish or chassidish world outside chabad, not everything is a big deal.

    When it comes to lubavitch if ever there is controversy with (recently)taking down a shul to put up a high rise building INCLUDING a shul by non chabad developers, they only jump up and down since some time ago there was a lubavitcher who was acting as rabbi of this old shul, which no lubavitcher ever davens in. (look up the article im just stating a brief example)
    I just wish they would care about these things even if had zero connection to lubavitchers. (In this case a very remote connection)
    But then again if it has nothing to do with chabad, its not their problem. But when it has to do with chabad, its everyones problem and why doesnt anyone care about us? MISNAGDIM! ANTI CHABAD! They shout…

    #1413571
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Had the Rebbe wanted the world to believe he’s Moshiach, he would have said so in a very public way, with nothing to hide. The Rebbe stood for emes, not chas vesholom two faced deception.

    Sorry, that doesn’t logically follow. He would have completely lost everyone had he gone public. It would not have been the “oifen hamiskabel/b’keilim d’tikkun”. You can’t learn a chamur from a kal.

    And you did not answer why he didn’t publicly disclaim it.

    These attacks on the Rebbes integrity

    I didn’t attack his integrity. I don’t know that he ever denied he was moshiach, but perhaps he deflected as he felt necessary.

    #1413572
    litvisherchossid
    Participant

    @sechelhayashar- “What a respectful way to talk to a woman. Or any person.”

    Stop giving an excuse that chabadshlucha is a woman. Everyone has an equal opportunity to speak and is treated as such man/woman. Besides she is obviously not in this alone. She already stated at least once that she asked her husband and he could/couldnt find an answer. We arent dumb she isnt fighting alone so stop using the woman card whenever you feel she is outmatched.

    #1413576
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Had the Rebbe wanted the world to believe he’s Moshiach

    I just want to point out that I was not saying he was trying to get the world to believe it, I only said it about his chassidim.

    #1413578
    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @RSO,
    “but I still want to know how you can be SURE that he loved EVERY Jew.”

    Because he wanted every single person born to a Jewish mother to have the same opportunity as you did to learn Torah, and to keep mitzvos.

    No matter how far away he was, whether it be a Yid in sunny Florida, or a frozen soul out in Iceland, or a Yiddishe neshama lost in the Australian outback, to the lone Jew in Madagascar, or the young Israeli finding himself in South East Asia, the Rebbe saw to it that he would be afforded the opportunity to serve Hashem just like you do.

    And I am a result of this dream that the Rebbe had. And because of my dedication to this goal, a Yid somewhere broke off with a goya, while another Yid puts on Tefilin each day, while a third goes to shul each Shabbos.

    This is Ahavas Yisrael, loving every single Yid like your own child, and affording them the same opportunities as a Yid in Williamsburg or Boro Park has.

    #1413579
    litvisherchossid
    Participant

    Im not sure where the minhag comes from but why does chabad refrain from learning Torah on nittel?(xmas) for several hours(Until chatzois)?

    I know they say not to give chayus to J**** but wasnt he not even born on december 25th? I dont think non jews even know for sure what date but definitely nowhere near that date. Isnt it just a celebration and not the actual birthdate?
    Honestly asking

    #1413580
    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @LitvisherChasid,
    “Also seems your fellow lubavitcher told you to hush about those chabad secrets and not share them on this site. So thanks for letting out a chabad secret.”
    No secret here, I’ve never done this or observed anyone doing this. As I told that poster, keep your personal hergeishim to yourself.

    “I recently saw on their site that some “chabad” chazzan will be singing/chazzening at the lincoln square synagogue. This makes everyone think that he is the only chazzon there and its always chabad on top.”

    Fake news. The article said he’s an assistant chazan and the main chazan is Yanky Lemmer. I never thought I’d see the day that I’d be defending collive.com.

    #1413586
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Honestly asking

    Then honestly ask it about everyone who keeps it, not just Chabad.

    #1413588
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’ve never done this or observed anyone doing this

    I’m glad, because it seems dangerously close to a”z.

    #1413590
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #1413591
    slominer
    Participant

    Why is Lubavitch big into pictures of the Rebbe? Everywhere they place, usually huge, pictures of the Rebbe. I don’t see such a custom by any other frum group.

    #1413597
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why is Lubavitch big into pictures of the Rebbe? Everywhere they place, usually huge, pictures of the Rebbe. I don’t see such a custom by any other frum group.

    I don’t know if this was as rampant before gimmel Tammuz; if it was l, my theory is wrong, but I might guess it’s their way of keeping him “alive”.

    #1413598
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    We’re talking about a belief system being Halachically problematic, ie, Kefira.

    You don’t get to decide what other people can talk about.

    Is מגלה פנים בתורה שלא כהלכה not halachically problematic?

    #1413601
    CS
    Participant

    “I will say no. No such place. As a (I hope) fairly learned Lubavitcher, who has heard all these arguments many times, I’ve yet to see such a reference. Anyone can come and insert “hints” anywhere they want, but an explicit source (without reading between the lines, or twisting words,) simply doesn’t exist.”

    Here is where we disagree. As you admit most of lubavitch does think the Rebbe is moshiach, although it would be most convenient not to. We do this because it was pretty clear what the Rebbe said, and before gimmel tammuz, there were no differing opinions, only after, which honestly seems more like apologetics, and lack of conviction in what the Rebbe said.

    I invite slominer to look up Sefer hasichos 5752, and learn any sicha there, and let us know what he thinks.

    #1413602
    CS
    Participant

    @showjoe thanks for the feedback.

    #1413626
    CS
    Participant

    @syag

    I don’t see why you’re offended. Im just trying to figure out the disconnect here why people can’t accept my Derech. So first I got the message that although you (as a whole) can accept my logic, it just sounds too different than you’re Derech, and so you’re sending allot of shocked responses to the effect of, “What, you really think that?” Without addressing what’s wrong with it.

    To that I responded that I understand you’re not open to really listening and that’s understandable, but there’s no point in going on before people can digest what I’ve said.

    Then I’m getting other responses with the message of “You can’t believe what your Rebbe says. In fact, if it sounds unusual, you should realise your Rebbe made a mistake or didnt really know what he was saying.

    To that I responded with the Rambam and quoted it myself because I saw people aren’t going to necessarily look it up.
    As you can see, not only is it not strange to not sure with your Rebbe, is actually like rebelling against Hashem. So my logical conclusion is that maybe you don’t hold by the same level of respect for your Rebbeim because maybe you don’t hold as highly of them as tzaddikim? You can’t have it born ways – tell me I shouldn’t trust my own Rebbe, but cos that you don’t esteem your own. Unless you disagree with the Rambam which would be a bigger issue and I don’t think that’s the case.

    Another option is that people are ignorant of the Rebbe’s greatness in Torah or are deliberately ignoring it.
    If that’s the case, I can’t help you as before making statements against a big tzaddik, the least you should do is so some research to make sure your suspicions are really true. And you don’t have to even google around or call people, MC has done a great job with providing quotes. And someone who persists with these comments obviously had no respect for Torah authority so I don’t have a common ground with him.

    The last thing I can think of is that you were not aware of the way tzaddikim and Rebbeim are to be treated, and now that I’ve quoted you halacha, you will obviously not disagree, but you don’t understand how this level of respect can go with not serving A”Z cvs. If that’s the case, then just say you don’t understand this. And any of us will be happy to explain as there is a well known maamar called byom Ashtei asar that addresses this.

    #1413628
    CS
    Participant

    @slominer

    “Was the Rebbe the leader for Reform Jews, intermarried Jews and Jews converted to Christianity, and their Nossi Hador as well? Did the Reform Jews and Jewish converts to Christianity accept the Rebbe as such? If not, how can you claim that the Rebbe was the leader for all Jews?”

    Yes, he tried to help out every Jew and pull them from even the lowest depths. Yes people from all backgrounds and levels of frumkeit came to the Rebbe for his guidance.

    The Rebbe even cared for people that hated him and wouldn’t come visit and tried to help them out as well.

    One story I find mind blowing is that the Rebbe instructed a chossid to open a school, I think it was a half learning, half trade school, not under the name of lubavitch, because some kids who would benefit would’nt attend because their parents don’t like lubavitch.

    #1413629
    CS
    Participant

    @MC yeah it was your style, not your points, your points are very solid.

    #1413630
    CS
    Participant

    @phil Although your posts have generally not been the most respectful, here I’ll address you, because the being alive point can use some clarification. But only once we’re on the same page that we can regard the Lubavitcher Rebbe as an authentic source because otherwise we cannot have an open honest discussion.

    The logic why that must be the case is explained in the post to syag above. @slonimer this is the additional topic I was referring to

    #1413632
    CS
    Participant

    @rso
    If I recall correctly you worte that you were born a few months before the lubavitcher rebbe did/did-not (strike out whichever is inapplicable) pass away. So you clearly never saw him, spoke to him face to face etc..

    How then can you say that you have experienced his “greatness myself on many levels”? Don’t you believe tht Hashem is running the world? Maybe, just maybe, it was Hashem you experienced and not the rebbe at all.

    If c”v someone beseeched oisoi ho’ish to heal him, ahd the person was then healed, we would all laugh at the idea it was o-h who healed him and we would all agree that it was Hashem who did so.

    So please tell us how you know it was the rebbe you experienced.”

    You do recall correctly and I’ll be happy to elaborate. But a concept here that seems to need explanation, is the relationship between Yiddin, Moshe rabbeinu/tzaddikim and Hashem vs. A”Z cvs.

    If you are seriously questioning and are interested in hearing, I’ll be happy, as would SH or MC, to explain this concept, and then I can gladly share my personal experiences.

    #1413633
    BurnTFACE
    Participant

    Someone mentioned pictures of the Lubavitcher Rebbe and it brought back another painful awakening.

    When I was a believer absolutely everything was right when it had to do with the Rebbe. If someone would have proven to me that the Rebbe cheated in the NY Marathon I would have said it was not only ok but it was what had to be done to bring Moshicah. But once I woke to the hypocrisy and I saw that the entire system was without solid base I noticed more and more major, and I mean major, problems.

    Even now I have pictures of a few great tzadikim on my wall, but that’s the extent of it. Pictures on the wall for me to see and hopefully to get inspired when I seee them. Before Gimmetl Tammuz however I had pictures everywhere: in my wallet, in my car, in my tefillin bag. It was obsession. But that’s the way we all were and I was no different to anyone else.

    There is however a Rebbe-picture-minhog which I later realized is absolutely wrong and close to a”z. They put a picture of the Rebbe inside the pillow under the babys head at his bris. If the baby could at least see the picture (although I don’t believe kids that age can actually see images) I could condone it. But since no one at the bris can see the picture the only explanation can be that a picture somehow on it’s own has kedushoh c”v.

    Isn’t that at the very least similar c”v to the a”z of dor Enoish as described by the Rambam?

    I remember reading years later in a LItvishe magazine (it was an anti-Chabad article so it may not be true) that Rav Yaakov Landa the former Rav of Bnei Brak was once at a bris and he saw them doing this so he started shouting “Avoido Zoroh! Avoido Zoroh!” and he had to be taken out of the shul because they couldn’t proceed with the bris.

    For those who may not know this, Rav Yaakov Landa was not only a Lubavitcher but he was the Rav the Rasha”b used to pasken his sheilos.

    #1413634
    2scents
    Participant

    Its not right to poke fun at any community and especially not if Chabad as it is not possible to deny all the good stuff that they do, some of which all yidden are able benefit.

    To make a statement to CS about their Chabad house was highly inappropriate regardless if CS is a man or a women, SH pointed that out and he did not play the race card.

    Some of the Chabad posters including SH seem to be pretty knowledgeable and provide decent sensible arguments. They did not invent none of this, they are following what they were taught and are willing to discuss this.

    A lot of arguments and disputes were provided here, most of them in a very respectful manner. Insults, personal or about any community have no purpose.

    No one will change their BELIEFS one way or the other.

    The ‘Rebbe’ alive or not, meant/still means a lot to Chabad, to the point that even stuff he didn’t really say, just are able to be nut picked out of his words are considered by a lot to be non negotiable, for them it’s a big deal, regardless of how it can be interpreted.

    To the Chabad people, if someone asks you for a source , by pointing them to a Sicha, you will not not accomplish anything, the rest of the world thinks the Rebbe was a big Tzadik, most have high regard for what he was and what he did, but that does not equal Navi, to them these concepts are dangerous and wrong. Did the Rebbe go around proclaiming he is a Navi or he was focused on building Yiddishkeit? Therefore the Sicha to them, is nothing more than a Sicha.

    To the others, Chabad is not perfect and so aren’t any other community and chassidus, exposing every minor negative detail that can probably be just as well attributed to others serves no purpose, other than making this entire conversation negative.

    #1413635
    Non Political
    Participant

    1. The rebuilding of Yeshivos, Baitai Chinuch, and Bais Yaacov’s is no less an expression of Avavas Yisroel for every Yid then sending Shluchim. It was (and is) and disagreement regarding what you is the best meathod of Harbatzas Torah.

    2. Demanding Halachic proofs against Mashichist beliefs is besides the point. If you make an error regarding a Halacha in Shulchan Aruch or Ramabam that’s one thing. But let’s say you believe in something for which there is no direct positive evidence and insist that it is your religious duty to believe so based on personal feelings, revelations, miricles, etc. You have just legitimized the revelation narrative of every world religion and cult.

    3. I take personal offense at the statement made by CS that the Vilna Gaon saw the Alter Rebbe of Lubavich through a key hole, realized that if he would meet him he would have become a chossid and ran away. But this is just a symptom of the above stated problem.

    #1413639
    Non Political
    Participant

    Just to summarize my understand if the rational basis for the mashichist position.

    1. The Lubavitcher Rebbe was a leader and teacher in Klal Yisroel.

    2. The Gedolim of his generation knew him.

    3. There was never a concensus among all or even most of the Gedolim to denounce him as unfit to be a leader and teacher.g

    4. Per the above his Talmidim have a right and obligation to follow the teachings of their Rebbe. (Also, per the above others are obligated to accord him the honor due to a leading Talmud Chacham.

    5. The inference from the Bati L’Ganni speech was sufficient for the Brisker Rov to declare that the Lubavitcher Rebbe thought he was Moshiach. Such an inference is clearly not unreasonable.

    #1413641
    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @Daas,
    While I don’t agree with many of their interpretations of Rambam, I don’t see how that would be considered מגלה פנים כו’ .
    Also, I think the main argument would be whether Moshiach can be from the meisim or not, I’m sure most wouldn’t say he was Chezkas Moshiach.

    #1413671
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Also, I think the main argument would be whether Moshiach can be from the meisim or not, I’m sure most wouldn’t say he was Chezkas Moshiach.

    It’s quite clear that he can’t be dead.

    This wasn’t a possibility before gimmel Tammuz, otherwise his death wouldn’t have been such a shock. After gimmel Tammuz, three quarters of Chabad rewrote the Rambam.

    Yes, this is halachically problematic.

    #1413674
    Non Political
    Participant

    Re: Rational basis for Moshichists

    Th position that the Rebbe IS Moshiach even after he was niftar is not defensible however. There is not a shred of positive evidence for this position therefore asking to bring bring Halachic proof against it is completely besides the point. The premise that it is legitimate to hold such a belief undermines the very fabric of the Halachic process itself

    #1413682
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Also, I think the main argument would be whether Moshiach can be from the meisim or not, I’m sure most wouldn’t say he was Chezkas Moshiach.

    Do the meshichists think he is definitely moshiach but not “chezkas moshiach”? How does that work?

    #1413687
    CS
    Participant

    @non political yes your five points are correct.Thanks allot. Let me just remind everyone that even though this is fun to discuss abs debate, it’s really not something that even lubavitchers nowadays sit and discuss in the open, as to us, this is aside point and the main thing is to bring moshiach. Which I think everyone can agree that Chabad is definitely pushing forward with this.

    Since gimmel tammuz the amount of shluchim has at least doubled. None of us would go live in the middle of nowhere is we didn’t clearly feel the Rebbe’s guidance and direction ad hayom haze

    In a famous sicha 5751 the Rebbe got very emotional and poured out his heart, which was highly unusual.

    He said that he had done everything to bring moshiach, and that klal yisroel as a whole, throughout the genesis,had accumulated enough zechusim to me r it moshiach so what more could Hashem be waiting for!?!

    He continued that it must be that Hashem doesn’t want the Nossi hador to bring moshiach because he wants moshiach. Rather, it needs to matter to every man woman and child.

    Ave then shockingly the Rebbe concluded that he’s giving it all over to us regular people-is up to us to bring moshiach.

    The shocked chassidim immediately broke out in a we want moshiach now chant for along time.

    But the Rebbe quietly told one of the Mazkirus, something like they missed the point. They’re just doing it for me.

    Less than a year later,the Rebbe had the stroke, the chassidim wanted the Rebbe to lead them forever abs just follow what he says, so they fervently davened the Rebbe should get better and lead the to the GEula.

    Apparently they were still understandably doing this out of love for the Rebbe,and not because they really wanted moshiach for its own sake,because gimmel tammuz followed.

    So we know what our mission is. And I’m told that people of the time could get away calling themselves chassidim without doing a thing the Rebbe asked of them, and just enjoy basking in the Rebbe’s presence.

    Today, no one would fool themselves to do this because there’s nothing to be gained by it. So as a result,the young generation today who want to be considered chassidim of the Rebbe, actually learn the Rebbe’s Torah on a regular basis and try to apply it.

    This results in a whole crowd of us wanting moshiach for the right reasons, not just to see the Rebbe,as we’ve never physically seen him,so we don’t miss it to the same degree.

    At the same time, we are forging forward with our mission the Rebbe gave us.

    Im keeping abreast of world events. Moshiach can’t be too far away. I’m pretty sure all Gedolim are saying it now,not just Chabad.

    Till then we know what we need to do and have our work cut out for us.

    #1413711
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    CS – although you did not take responsibility or seem concerned about insulting someone to the extent that you will not receive mechila, thank you for at least not pretending you didn’t do it. Thank you also for this comment – ” and now that I’ve quoted you halacha, you will obviously not disagree, but you don’t understand how this level of respect can go with not serving A”Z cvs. If that’s the case, then just say you don’t understand this. And any of us will be happy to explain as there is a well known maamar called byom Ashtei asar that addresses this.” which finally gave me the 100% clarity on why the shluchim are sent to places where there are no yidden familiar with Torah.

    I am left with no choice but to daven for the awakening of the ones whom you have “helped” with these teachings. I never would have thought such could be the case but you have done a superb job of explaining what is going on. And as much as you want and wish it to be so, it is not lack of understanding, emunas chochomim or anything else you would like to accuse me of.

    #1413801
    apushatayid
    Participant

    since we are quiting the Rambam, perhaps we should focus on the Rambam at the end of perek yud beis of hilchos melachim.

    וכל אלו הדברים וכיוצא בהן לא ידע אדם איך יהיו עד
    שיהיו, שדברים סתומין הן אצל הנביאים, גם ההכמים אין להם קבלה בדברים
    אלו, אלא לפי הכרע הפסוקים, ולפיכך יש להם מהלוקת בדברים אלו, ועל כל
    פנים אין סדור הויית דברים אלו ולא דקדוקיהן עיקר בדת, ולעולם לא יתעס ק
    אדם בדברי ההגדות, ולא יאריך במדרשות האמורים בענינים אלו וכיוצא בהן ,
    ולא ישימם עיקר, שאין מביאין לא לידי יראה ולא לידי אהבה, וכן לא יהש ב
    הקצין, אמרו הכמים תפה רוהם של מהשבי הקצים, אלא יהכה ויאמין בכל ל
    הדבר כמו שבארנו.

    #1413777
    Non Political
    Participant

    CS, Glad to see I understood your position. TY for taking the the time and effort to have this discussion. I can certainly say that my understanding of the authentic Chabbad position has been enhanced. Thanks in no small part to responses from SH. I am very interested in what you and SH would respond to the other 2 parts of my 3 part post.

    #1413774
    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @Daas,
    “Yes, this is halachically problematic.”
    I didn’t ask for your opinion as a Posek, I asked for you to quote a source in Shulchan Aruch or Rambam to back it up.

    “Do the meshichists think he is definitely moshiach but not “chezkas moshiach”? How does that work?”

    Does the fervent hopeful belief mean that you think he already reached the status of Chezkas Moshiach?
    It means that you think he will rise from the meisim, and then accomplish what a Chezkas Moshiach would need to accomplish.
    (I’ve already proven that this doesn’t fit with the Rebbes own words several times, but that doesn’t make one a koifer if he chooses to believe so.)

    #1413822
    CS
    Participant

    @non political thank you for taking the time out to respond. I will respond soon fully iyh.

    @syag I’m really sorry you’re hurt, but I figured my apology would come across as insincere unless I understood why you were so hurt? Besides for the fact that we are both anonymous so I anyway can’t fathom why you would be hurt anyway, even if I said something not so nice? Not every post that I made was well received but I don’t retort that I am personally offended as no one knows me personally,and any arguments are intended against my opinions. I certainly wouldn’t be so offended as to not give Mechila. I think that is over the top

    #1413826
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @DaasYochid Pictures of Rav Schneerson ZT”L were very common even before his death. I distinctly recall multiple billboards in NYC with his face on it, ubiquitous pamphlets and fliers advertising the “1-800-4MOSHIACH” hotline, and just his face on every conceivable surface.

    @chabadshlucha You do realize that the entire concept of “Nasi HaDor” is exclusive to Lubavitch? Whether or not it’s apikorsus isn’t really up for debate if the facts are that it’s a concept that literally no one else believes in. Sure it’s brought down in the Tanya, but the description is so vague and fraught with kabbaladicke meanings, it’s pretty much impossible to nail down what exactly it means. The only explanation is from some random shmuz by Rav Schneerson ZT”L which, as I’ve explained in another thread, can’t really be taken as anything more than an interesting tidbit.

    #1413851
    GAON
    Participant

    CS,
    “As you can see, not only is it not strange to not sure with your Rebbe, is actually like rebelling against Hashem. So my logical conclusion is that maybe you don’t hold by the same level of respect for your Rebbeim because maybe you don’t hold as highly of them as tzaddikim? You can’t have it born ways – tell me I shouldn’t trust my own Rebbe”

    Why is this a matter of “trust” ?
    Can your or any rebbe ever commit a mistake?
    Is it possible your interpretation on his words were in error? or in this case, at least retroactively in error?

    In the very least – Is it possible to say that the Rebbe tried bringing Mosheach or in your case bring the Geulah and the Klipos/Sitra Achra Nisgabor and we simply weren’t Zocha?

    Lastly, and most importantly – is your rebbe a Navi?
    And if yes – please describe how you define a Navi and Nevuah?

    #1413874
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    ” I think that is over the top”

    So is telling someone they lack chashivos to tsaddikim and gedolim. And inexcusable. And unfortunately giving mechila to someone would require them acknowledging what they did wrong, being remorseful and vowing not to repeat it so…well I guess Halacha isn’t on your side.
    I don’t know you to know that ‘pas nisht’, but I can tell you that the minimum I would expect from someone in kiruv is patience, respect and a lack of such inexcusable personal insults.

    #1413877
    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “which finally gave me the 100% clarity on why the shluchim are sent to places where there are no yidden familiar with Torah.”

    Bingo. I remember when I had that realization. The sad irony is that they preach acceptance and anti-isolationism when they are [very intentionally] sheltering the unlearned masses from learning any non-Chabad (mainstream) shittahs. And, if someone by chance learns one, they have to spin it around eg. “we daven with more kavanah than everyone else because we eat first and miss zman hatefilla”, “we’re careful to not sleep in the Sukkah”, etc. We can laugh it off, but, unfortunately, people in remote areas end up really believing these things.

    #1414063
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Those people quote the word of the Rambam just as some others quote the verses from ‎Isaiah 53 etc…

    Just wondering down the line C”V… well let’s see; Sunday is taken, Friday is also booked, which day are they gonna do??

    #1414071
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Does the fervent hopeful belief mean that you think he already reached the status of Chezkas Moshiach?

    Don’t whitewash it. For the meshichists, it’s more than fervent hopefulness, it is a clear belief.

    It’s even more than chezkas moshiach, they hold he’s vaday moshiach.

    I’m sorry if you think a source is needed that it’s not okay to make up your own Rambam.

    #1414073
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    As I wrote so extensively on the other thread – these people, so called followers, “Chassidim” are the ones making such a mockery out of the Chassidus. They are the one bringing such scorn and ridicule upon the zecher for the past Lubavetcher Rebbe נ”ע זצוק”ל. and ז”ל. If they’d only realize…

    I myself was once was one time in Crown Heights for a Shabbos, some time after the Lubavitcher Rebbes’s petira. I took a stroll Shabbos afternoon and went in 770. On one corner I saw a fabrengen in earnest. Men of repute, אנשי צורה, around a table in deep discussion of Chabad teachings (assuming, obviously). One was talking while holding a bottle of ‘mashke’, I assume that’s the way it was done. Such a Nachas to see, a real Chassidus, coming together, fabrengen, discussing lofty ideas….

    A the other side there was such commotion, tumult, noise cacophony, pandemonium. Dancing non-stop Yechi here, doing the Yechi thing there… Such a contradictory place, matzav…

    They have such a rich Chassidus, so many great Rebbes to learn and glean from… Why are they doing this to the Chassidus, to the Zecher of the Lubavitcher Rebbe zichrono lervacha???

    #1414080
    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @LilFroggie,
    “They have such a rich Chassidus, so many great Rebbes to learn and glean from… Why are they doing this to the Chassidus, to the Zecher of the Lubavitcher Rebbe zichrono lervacha???”
    My sentiments exactly.

    @NonPolitical,
    I’ll respond when I have a chance, iyh.

    #1414079
    GAON
    Participant

    “Moshiach can’t be too far away. I’m pretty sure all Gedolim are saying it now,not just Chabad.”

    The Rambam certainly indicates so – I will quote again:

    ” שבקרוב לימות המשיח האמיתי ירבו הטוענים והחושבים שכל אחד מהם משיח – ולא תעמד טענתם ולא תתאמת, ויאבדו הם ויאבדו עמהם רבים”

    – אגרת תימן –

    #1414078
    5ish
    Participant

    “The sad irony is that they preach acceptance and anti-isolationism when they are [very intentionally] sheltering the unlearned masses from learning any non-Chabad (mainstream) shittahs. And, if someone by chance learns one, they have to spin it around eg. “we daven with more kavanah than everyone else because we eat first and miss zman hatefilla”, “we’re careful to not sleep in the Sukkah”, etc. We can laugh it off, but, unfortunately, people in remote areas end up really believing these things.”

    I am mamesh happy that the accusations against the behavior of Lubavitcher chassidim are true and are the same as accusations made by misnagdim harishonim against chassidim harishonim (play on words duh) which were true. It is an incontrovertible fact that chassidus came to correct mistaken things which had worked their way to in to common Jewish practice, belief, and behavior, and to cure those machalos. The Baal Shem Tov and his students, and their students did not come to forge a path that should also be acceptable for those who choose to follow it. They came to change the entire nature of the worldwide Jewish community and its observances.

    The reason chassidim teach that Judaism IS chassidus and is because that is the shita of the Baal Shem Tov.

    On a different point: Acceptance does not mean agreeing. A person can love another Jew and accept him for who he is, judgmentally, but not agree with him. This is a mistake some of you make. You say “Chabad says they love and accept everyone but then they say they are exclusively right.” Yes, the same way we tell an ignoramus who is doing the wrong thing that he is wrong, we tell a yeshiva bochur, a yungerman, a rosh yeshiva, etc etc that he is wrong.

    And that is the same way every modern orthodox Jew thinks modern orthodoxy is what is right for the world, and the same way every bochur sitting in Brisk, and Mir, and BMG etc think that their Judaism is what is right for the world.

    And none of them entertain a shidduch from the opposite group, and none of them “hold” of the opposite group etc etc etc and none of that is lacking from love and acceptance.

    When a person is sincerely convinced that he has the truth there is no wonder that he wants to share it with his brother.

    #1414087
    Phil
    Participant

    “Although your posts have generally not been the most respectful, here I’ll address you, because the being alive point can use some clarification”

    CS,

    Please do clarify. Why did they bury an empty aron? If he’s alive, where is he? Is he hiding or being hidden against his will? Does he still eat, drink and have bodily needs? Is he still on this earth but invisible?

    #1414088
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    And, if someone by chance learns one, they have to spin it around eg. “we daven with more kavanah than everyone else because we eat first and miss zman hatefilla”, “we’re careful to not sleep in the Sukkah”, etc….

    It is an incontrovertible fact that chassidus came to correct mistaken things which had worked their way to in to common Jewish practice, belief, and behavior

    So now davening b’zman, not eating before davening, sleeping in the succah etc. are mistaken behaviors which chassidus came to fix???

    #1414099
    slominer
    Participant

    If one person, all on his own, has a a clear belief that Reb Moshe Feinstein is vadai Moshiach, is he violating anything or doing anything wrong?

    #1414107
    GAON
    Participant

    “If one person, all on his own, has a a clear belief that Reb Moshe Feinstein is vadai Moshiach, is he violating anything or doing anything wrong?”

    “violating anything”
    No – BUT if he creates an entire religion out of it – YES!

    “anything wrong”
    If being a lunatic is wrong then yes.

    #1414112
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If one person, all on his own, has a a clear belief that Reb Moshe Feinstein is vadai Moshiach, is he violating anything or doing anything wrong?

    If he is unaware of the Rambam (etc.), he’s guilty of am haaratzus. I don’t think it’s kefirsh per se.

    If he is aware of it, but insists that he is moshiach because he declared himself so, he is guilty of distorting the halachah and halachic process, as well as of being m’vazeh R’ Moshe by saying something unbecoming.

    Probably, he’s just insane, and pattur as a shoteh. I think it’s ridiculous to think tens (hundreds?) of thousands of Lubavicher chassidim are all shotim in the literal sense; it’s just a hashkofoh gone horribly awry.

    And, when such a large group distorts the halachah and the halachic process, it is a whole lot more dangerous than when a yochid does it, although they’re both avlos.

    #1414125
    5ish
    Participant

    “So now davening b’zman, not eating before davening, sleeping in the succah etc. are mistaken behaviors which chassidus came to fix???”

    That is not what I said.

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