November 26, 2017 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #1412198
“So how do you feel about and explain and personally reconcile with the fact that a large majority of your fellow Lubavitchers believe this very silly belief?”
Firstly, I didn’t say upwards of 70%, I said between 60% to 70%, but anyway, those numbers don’t mean much. They’re just an estimate based on very hard to define beliefs.
Now, my main issue with believing that the Rebbe is Moshiach isn’t due to my thinking “that it’s silly”. I think it’s intellectually dishonest to base that belief on the Rebbes words or writings, (something I gave sources for quite awhile ago here, but didn’t expound on.) That said, as a hergesh pnimi, a real internal belief that’s personal, and not comprised of chanting slogans and waving ridiculous flags, or wearing silly Yarmulkes, I have no problem with it. I don’t think it’s silly, I think it’s an expression of longing for Moshiach and a fervent hope that it will be the Rebbe, whether that makes sense or not. I’m not going to belittle that belief.
I only take issue with the following:
1. People who feel that it’s their mission to convince the entire world of these said beliefs, which as I said is a small segment of Lubavitch in America (very far from the majority).
2. People who believe that the Rebbe is alive Beguf Gashmi, and mock those who visit his Tziyun in Queens.
As I said, I, based on the Rebbes own words (Likkutei Sichos Chelek 35 Vayigash Sicha 3 page 209, footnote 6, I hope all that is accurate, this is off hand) believe that according to the Rebbe, it’s not logical for him to be Moshiach.November 26, 2017 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #1412199
Seichel Hayashar – specifically to you I would say that your cutting remarks make more sense now that you have revealed your age. Without that info I certainly pictured you to be at least a decade older ( I mean that as a compliment). Although it does appear at some points that you are telling people to be quiet so as not to reveal Chabad secrets to us simpletons, at other times you seem genuinely frustrated at what is being said in the name of lubavitch. and considering the beliefs you have expressed, I can’t say I blame you. Which brings me to the question of – why is it that there does not appear to be a single lubavitcher on here that agrees with your hashkofos?November 26, 2017 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #1412211MammeleParticipant
Just thought I’d pop in with a quick “Thank you” to the Mods for their hard work in Modding this/these never-ending thread(s).
Shkoyach, it’s greatly appreciated! (And I believe I speak for everyone, but we’re all too busy contributing.)November 26, 2017 11:47 pm at 11:47 pm #1412218
“Which brings me to the question of – why is it that there does not appear to be a single lubavitcher on here that agrees with your hashkofos?”
Not many Lubavitchers frequent the Coffee Room, and among those who do, unfortunately it seems to be that the people who post are the ones trying to convince you of the legitimacy of their opinion, and ones like me.November 26, 2017 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #1412220
Sechel – A few days ago you wrote: “if someone chooses to believe that the Rebbe or any Rebbe is Moshiach, that doesn’t make him a Kofer or anything. It may be foolish to believe so after his passing, but definitely isn’t assur in any way, shape or form.”
I understood you to mean that belief is silly/foolish. No?
Your original comment:November 26, 2017 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #1412228
“and ones like me.”
*And not ones like me.November 27, 2017 12:02 am at 12:02 am #1412241
Sechel – If it’s intellectually dishonest to base the belief that the Rebbe is Moshiach on the Rebbes words or writings. And, furthermore, the Rebbes own words (in Likkutei Sichos Chelek 35) demonstrate that the Rebbe himself indicated it’s not logical for him to be Moshiach. How do you explain why 60%-70% of Lubavitchers nevertheless believe the Rebbe is Moshiach?November 27, 2017 12:02 am at 12:02 am #1412230
“It may be foolish to believe so after his passing, but definitely isn’t assur in any way, shape or form.” ”
It may be – as in, even if you do believe it’s foolish, (and you’re free to do so) that doesn’t make it assur.November 27, 2017 12:21 am at 12:21 am #1412246
“How do you explain why 60%-70% of Lubavitchers nevertheless believe the Rebbe is Moshiach?”
Way too many tough questions for one day:)
If I didn’t make it clear earlier, I think it’s something based on emotion and feeling, it’s a hergesh, not something that is dictated by logic and reason. I think that’s what many Lubavitchers who do believe the Rebbe is Moshiach would answer, but I really can’t speak for them.November 27, 2017 6:33 am at 6:33 am #1412253
“The nasty sly comments, digs and cutting remarks that are being fired, but with a big smile, against misnagdim (as you’ve declared me) ”
Was it me who called you a misnaged?November 27, 2017 6:36 am at 6:36 am #1412252showjoeParticipant
chabadshlucha:”@everyone I challenge those quiet spectators to speak up and tell me whether this has helped you understand the Lubavitch views on the Rebbe better, in a positive way, so that we can allay sechel hayashars concerns for good. If yes, maybe I will address an additional topic that has been in the background. If not, maybe he is right and I shall comment no further.”
I can personally say that I now have a deeper understanding of Meshichist theology, and that I view that as a positive thing.
Now, replying to ideas mentioned earlier in the tread, specifically to the idea that yemos hamoshiach is the “ideal” time for us to be in, i pretty sure that the Ramchal would say that this time would be techias hamesim and not yemos hamoshiach (based on the first part of Derech Hashem), although feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
Also about the debate what consists of emuna, whether it is emotional or logical, this seems to be an old debate between Chassidim and Misnagdim. R’ Nachmun has multiple pieces where he clearly says that one should not philosophize about the existence of Hashem, but rather simply believe that its true (obviously a major over-simplification of this idea). And I believe that Litvoks in general take the logical approach (The whole Derech Hashem being a philosophical work). Chabad seems to take a middle of the road derech and say that in includes both.November 27, 2017 6:43 am at 6:43 am #1412251BurnTFACEParticipant
There was one topic I wasn’t goint to bring up but something that CS wrote really bothered me. Even then I wasn’t going to pursue it until someone mentioned the lack of tznius in Crown Heights.
Here is what she wrote in reply to one of the cynics: I find it disturbing that one of the examples you brought as mesiras nefesh is not being a loving husband because Hashem comes first?! I believe Hashem gave the mitzvah if oina. Care to explain?
Is there any other frum group in the world where a woman would write that, to a man no less?
Lack of tznius was one of the minor (at the time I believed it was minor, and I was very wrong there too!) things that began to irk me after Gimmel Tammuz, and it has gotten so much worse. Not just clohting -wise but the mixing of men nd women. Anybody chats with anybody for no necessary reason, and for some reason Kingston Avenue (I have been back many times and I still visit a few times a year) the chats between young men and non-relative young women on the street always take longer than those between men and men or between women and women.
And please, don’t tell me tznius is fine there because everyone who keeps up with the news knows that it is not.November 27, 2017 6:45 am at 6:45 am #1412250BurnTFACEParticipant
I wrote earlier that after the second stroke the fact that it happened on the exact same date as the first stroke was proof that Moshiach was coming. And I said I’d get back to it later. I forgot at the time but here it is.
To a Lubavitcher anything at all that could be suspected of being supernatural was proof of anything you wanted. So since we all believe in Hashgochoh Protis, the fact that the dates of the strokes were the same proved whatever we wanted it to, and that was that the geuloh shleimoh was about to happen.
Do you follow that logic? Don’t worry, neither do I… now. But in the warped state of mind I had at the time I did. And in the warped state of mind nearly everyone who still belongs in Lubavitch currently has, nothing makes more sense than that. Anyhow, nothing there makes sense anyways so why is this any worse?November 27, 2017 9:48 am at 9:48 am #1412280K-cupParticipant
Seriously curious, Is there a reason someone like the Chazon Ish isn’t also nasi hador? He created a frum community and hareadi movement in Israel. Is it simply he didn’t say so? Would there be a way to verify? And if not, does Chabad believe in an infinite number of moshiach or nisiam ha door? Let me Kno when if this was answered in other posts. Thanks for the discussion and holding up to the daggersNovember 27, 2017 11:21 am at 11:21 am #1412359The little I knowParticipant
I commented this before, and it is so true that it bears repeating. It is still beyond logic to believe this myth. And an earlier comment stated that it is based on hergesh. I would second that motion. It is not based on logic or saichel. That is why all the efforts to find proofs for it are failures. One can take any written line and find ways to contort it to support a position, but that does not make the interpretation true, and it certainly does not make it saicheldig.
I noted earlier that chassidus Chabad has a history that dates back many generations of deifying their leaders. I do not say this mockingly. There is a degree to which all can learn a bit about emunas tzaddikim. But the extremes are never good. And many have commented that this extreme smacks of avodah zarah. My position is not that negative. i do believe it detracts from the true avodas Hashem.
But back to the point about hergesh. Emotion does not always have logical explanation, and is sometimes not even based on fact. In this case, the explanation might well have more to do with the fact that today’s Chabad is leaderless. There is a huge population without a leader. In an effort to fill that gap, the messages of the Rebbe being alive today can flourish, and so can the reincarnation of the Rebbe as Moshiach. And when one seeks to rationalize this, the logical arguments all postdate the conclusion because they are not the basis for it. It is a forgone conclusion, and the grasping at anything to support the idea are futile efforts to justify it.
While I may sometimes laugh at all this, I adopt a position of rachmanus, on so many people that could actually fulfill the mandate of Taryag Mitzvos, and also promoting the Rebbe’s derech of kiruv, without the obsession about the Rebbe. And once someone wants to obsess about something not real, the world of fantasy is limitless.November 27, 2017 11:22 am at 11:22 am #1412447AshParticipant
@MochiachChat I happen to do it on occasion as I’ve never seen someone freak out about it before.
I assure you every Torah yid doesn’t and wouldn’t accept it. Do yourself a favour and stop. Since at least the times of Mishna no-one has referred to gedolim vtzadikim without their title.
And as the Rambam says (פ”ו מהי’ ת”ת הי”ג) this was the final cause of churban yerushalaim – the polar opposite of what ostensibly is your lief goal.November 27, 2017 11:44 am at 11:44 am #1412458apushatayidParticipant
chabadshlucha:”@everyone I challenge those quiet spectators to speak up and tell me whether this has helped you understand the Lubavitch views on the Rebbe better, in a positive way, ”
No, in fact, the opposite is true. Before reading this thread, I figured I didnt quite understand and applied live and let live, now, quite frankly, I think those who believe what you claim they do are simply crazy. Sorry for the harsh response. I’m certain I am not the only one who feels this way, but am probably in the minority willing to come straight out and say it.November 27, 2017 11:51 am at 11:51 am #1412469
Reb Yoel after gimmel tammuz:
“הענין ד”משיח שבדור” שהי’ בהנשיא שבדורות הקודמים הוא – שהוא ראוי להיות משיח, אבל לא הי’ שום הכרח שיהי’ כך בפועל, ותלוי באם הדור יזכה. משא”כ בהנשיא דדור השביעי – הרי בודאי שיהי’ כך בפועל. כי ]נוסף לזה שדורנו זה הוא הדור האחרון דהגלות והדור הראשון דהגאולה[ מכיון שהמשיח שבדור הוא הנשיא של הדור – הרי מובן בפשטות, דזה מה שבדורות הקודמים היתה האפשרות שה”משיח שבדור” ישאר רק “משיח” ברוחניות )יחידה הכללית( ולא יהי’ הגואל בפועל הוא ע”י שבדור שלאחריו יהי’ נשיא אחר. ומכיון שבנידון דידן לא שייך דבר כזה – דפשיטא שרבינו נשיאינו )הנשיא דדור השביעי( הוא הנשיא בהוה וגם בעתיד
וכדלקמן סי”ג( – הרי במילא ברור שהוא יהי’ גם הגואל )משיח (בפועלNovember 27, 2017 11:55 am at 11:55 am #14124705ishParticipant
Can I safely assume that @chabadshlucha never answered the questions I posed in the beginning of the thread?November 27, 2017 11:56 am at 11:56 am #1412467PhilParticipant
“I noted earlier that chassidus Chabad has a history that dates back many generations of deifying their leaders.”
You’re absolutely correct. The sefer “Ashkavta D’Rebbe”, written by Rabbi Moshe Dovber Rivkin about the passing of the Rebbe Rashab, zt”l in 1920, records that Lubavitcher Kohanim deliberately came into forbidden contact with the niftar. They did so because they interpreted the phrase “Yakov Avinu Lo Meis” literally and then applied it to their Rebbe.
The followers of no other movement, whether Chassidim or Misnagdim, Ashkenazim or Sefardim, have ever acted in this shocking manner. So unfortunately, this kind of nutty deification is nothing new to them.
Bottom line, Chabad can loudly make whatever twisted arguments they’d like about the Rebbe being the Messiah. The rest of the Jewish world will NEVER accept it.
truncatedNovember 27, 2017 12:10 pm at 12:10 pm #1412477
apushtayid – Do you see a difference, and feel differently, between the views expressed (very well and articulately I might add) by Chabadshlucha compared to the views expressed by Sechel HaYashar (with the latter not subscribing to the “Rebbe is Moshiach” majoritarian view within Lubavitch)?November 27, 2017 12:10 pm at 12:10 pm #1412483LubavitcherParticipant
המלך המשיח עתיד לעמוד ולהחזיר מלכות דוד ליושנה לממשלה הראשונה ובונה המקדש ומקבץ נדחי ישראל וחוזרין כל המשפטים בימיו כשהיו מקודם מקריבין קרבנות ועושין שמטין ויובלות ככל מצותה האמורה בתורה וכל מי שאינו מאמין בו או מי שאינו מחכה לביאתו לא בשאר נביאים בלבד הוא כופר אלא בתורה
This is the first part from Melochim Perek Yud Aleph.November 27, 2017 12:18 pm at 12:18 pm #1412480
Yaakov avinu lo mes IS literal. The Rebbe has a whole sicha on it bringing mefarshim from different places to prove this.
Also as explained by famous chabad editor Uri Kaploun after I asked about this awhile back:
“btw, although I’m a kohen, and hence lich’orah exempt and indeed banned from such duties, it is written that kivrei tzaddikim are not metameh. Nevertheless, the Rebbe was makpid for some reason that kohanim shd observe all the necessary distances etc. when at the Ohel of the Frierdiker Rebbe.”
Instead of attacking chabad, why don’t u learn something.November 27, 2017 12:50 pm at 12:50 pm #1412526benignumanParticipant
You wrote: “If you’d be intellectually honest with yourself, you’d realize the fallacy of your argument. Go open a Gemara, and look how a classic stira between the gemaras statement and a possuk is resolved. Many times, it’ll be “the Tanna is speaking about this, and the possuk means this”. I’m not making chiddushim here, this is basic Jewish literacy.”
The Gemara is basing such statements on a received mesorah, a Torah Sh’Bal Peh. Moreover, there is a principal of ein mikroh yotzei midei peshuto. To claim that a posuk is actually referring to a subset of tzadikim when its simple meaning is otherwise, would, at the very least, require evidence of some kind. Finally, the Gemara itself lists only 4 people that lived without any aveiros. But according to the interpretation discussed above, wouldn’t there have to be at least one in every generation?November 27, 2017 12:50 pm at 12:50 pm #1412527PhilParticipant
“Yaakov avinu lo mes IS literal”
Thanks so much again for proving my point!November 27, 2017 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #1412564
“Finally, the Gemara itself lists only 4 people that lived without any aveiros. But according to the interpretation discussed above, wouldn’t there have to be at least one in every generation?”
That has been answered already, but if you want to study it further, look in Maamarim Melukat Aleph, Veavraham zakein.November 27, 2017 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #1412602The little I knowParticipant
Yaakov Avinu Lo Mes is completely irrelevant to the discussion here. There is extensive discussion among the poskim of many generations regarding the entry of Kohanim to Kever Rochel, and the poskim are near unanimous that they may not enter at all. I am not familiar with how they deal with Meoras Hamachpela and I don’t recall whether it is part of the discussion, but there is ample basis to recognize the marked kevarim there are not at all the real locations of the Avos, though the proximity is not questioned.
The reality is that the pronouncement of anything to permit a Kohen to approach a kever must be something extremely solid among poskim. The hergesh of chossid is unreliable for this, and those Kohanim who approached the aron were undoubtedly oveir their issur. This is an example of the deification I described that was seconded by Phil.November 27, 2017 1:38 pm at 1:38 pm #1412604ubiquitinParticipant
“Yaakov avinu lo mes IS literal.”
Its not. (unless you dont know what literal means or what mes means)
teh passuk says ” וַיִּקְבְּר֣וּ אֹת֔וֹ בִּמְעָרַ֖ת שְׂדֵ֣ה הַמַּכְפֵּלָ֑ה” Either he had died before that or afterwards, either way though Yaakov Avinu literally died.
Now figuratively, that is another story, certainly in a manner of speaking (ie figuratively) he still lives, as chazal say “Yaakov avinu lo mesNovember 27, 2017 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #1412630
“The nasty sly comments, digs and cutting remarks that are being fired, but with a big smile, against misnagdim (as you’ve declared me) ”
Was it me who called you a misnaged?
That was mainly directed toward MC and CS. misnaged seems to be used in Chabad as everyone who doesn’t subscribe to Chabad, which is not a fair use of the word. it is also in the negative form and on this thread, seems to have a derogatory tone thrown in.
Additional point, when someones say, “I disagree with your last comment” and you say, “Why are you against Chabad”, that seems to cause a bit more ‘drama’ than necessaryNovember 27, 2017 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #1412788
“I can understand people who don’t hold by what the Rebbe said, but I have yet to see a rational argument for why lubavitchers can’t believe it for themselves based on their own rebbes statements and other sources.”
Could not have said it betterNovember 27, 2017 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #1412805
“and those Kohanim who approached the aron were undoubtedly oveir their issur. ”
You are correct that majority of Poskim were machmir, but who are you to say they were oiver an issue?
The Minchas Elozor says he would be meikil if not for it being hard to say that someone isn’t a tzadik, and that would lead to kohnim going everywhere.
The Chida in Pnei Dovid says that the Minhag is to be meikil.
Bpoel, in Chabad we are machmir like rov Poskim. However that doesn’t give you a right to say that those who weren’t were oiver. Are you greater than the Minchas Elozor or the Chida? Why try and look for aveiros by Yidden? Why not be matzdik and Dan lekaf zchus?November 27, 2017 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #1412807
Thanks for proving mine by leaving out the whole “the Rebbe brings mefarshim that prove it” part
Pure hatred and intellectual dishonestyNovember 27, 2017 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #1412818
Yes as with any teacher who you hold to be your Rebbe. See hilchos talmud Torah perek 5, of RambamNovember 27, 2017 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #1412846
@the little I know
I did not site a “Hergesh” for kohanim going to kevarim. In any event, I do agree with u that from what I’ve seen, it appears Uri Kaploun was mistaken here. Altho, I’m unsure as I’ve heard different things. I’m willing to accept that it’s not ok. The tzitz Eliezer says in is halachic work that Yaakov avinu lo mes is real al pi halacha because Torah defines the reality. I’m unsure what he says about what this means for tumah. In any event, what does something some chassidim did over a hundred years ago relevant to the discussion here?November 27, 2017 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #1412852
The Rebbe has a whole sicha about how it is literal and that Rashi and Tosofos agree that it’s literal. Maybe read the sicha before u categorically deny such a thing.November 27, 2017 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #1412854November 27, 2017 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #1412860November 27, 2017 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #1412877
@ everyone who is asking me further questions. I think unfortunately you have proved sechels point quite well, that you are just not open to really learning and listening. You haven’t responded to the sources me and Moshiach chat brought, just say we’re foolish and mental patients… So I really don’t see a reason to go on when no one has given a real counterpoint to the logic of a) the Rebbe is our Rebbe/tzaddik see hilchos tt chap 5. 2) the Rebbe clearly hinted that he’s Moshiach. 3) so we believe our Rebbe.
@burntface I really commiserate with your pain, can’t feel the depths but can just imagine. I honestly don’t know what I would have done if I had been there at the time. The chassidim tried to the very end to avoid gimmel tammuz, (along with the Rebbe, I believe) and that must have been such a confusing message to the youth of the time.
No one is gonna convince me that I cannot trust my own Rebbe. Ain Eid naase dayan because of the koach hariya,, and I have experienced the Rebbe’s greatness myself on many levels.
I am personally ambivalent over whether the Rebbe must be Moshiach as I definitely see place for both interpretations, but I don’t yet see anyone else who could for the category so until then, it’s the Rebbe because he is the most recent Nossi Hador (to answer that question.)
And why not the Chazon Ish? Because he didn’t take personal responsibility for every Jew, just got his chareidi community. As that’s fine. He was a top leader in Klal Yisrael. Just not Nossi Hador.November 27, 2017 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #1412978
“I am personally ambivalent over whether the Rebbe must be Moshiach as I definitely see place for both interpretations, but I don’t yet see anyone else who could”
Very well said, and I think that many Lubavitchers would subscribe to that view, it’s quite “moderate” (I hate to use that word, but I want to put it in perspective for others here).
Was this always your view or did it soften throughout this discussion? You don’t have to answer, I understand if you don’t.
(Also, do you still take me seriously even though you now know exactly how old I am? 🙂 )November 27, 2017 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #1412979
I think unfortunately you have proved sechels point quite well, that you are just not open to really learning and listening.
how insulting and naïve. really! you have the chutzpah to call a room full of people not open to listening because they wouldn’t use your own sources to prove the validity of those same sources. You have gotten much respect and response from too many people for you to start degrading us with the title of closed minded. Perhaps we are just not hearing anything in your lectures that speaks truth or Torah true. Is it okay for us to open our minds to your lectures and come out understanding that we don’t believe it to be correct? How open minded are you really if you think that our disagreement can only be from not listening?
Your statement reminds me of the crook and his accomplice who were caught by the police. The police said to the first crook, “do you have an alibi?” and the crook responds, “I’m innocent sir”, and he points to the accomplice and said, “just ask him, he’ll tell you”,
Before you jump, I am NOT (NOT NOT) comparing your derecho to crooks, I am trying to illustrate that asking the source to give his own reference report is not valid.November 27, 2017 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #1412987Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
“Because he didn’t take personal responsibility for every Jew, just got his chareidi community.”
We have clearly demonstrated that Chabad’s policy is to overtly try to get people to change their minhagim; is that what defines “taking personal responsibility for every Jew” in your mind?November 27, 2017 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #1412991
“how insulting and naïve. really! you have the chutzpah to call a room full of people not open to listening”
Lower your tone, don’t be so hard on her, it’s only the Coffee Room:)November 27, 2017 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #1412990
“it’s the Rebbe because he is the most recent Nossi Hador”
How do you know that of all of the tzaddikim alive today, that all are unqualified to be Nossi Hador? Did you review and rate all of the tzaddikim as unqualified?
“And why not the Chazon Ish? Because he didn’t take personal responsibility for every Jew, just got his chareidi community.”
Was the Rebbe the leader for Reform Jews, intermarried Jews and Jews converted to Christianity, and their Nossi Hador as well? Did the Reform Jews and Jewish converts to Christianity accept the Rebbe as such? If not, how can you claim that the Rebbe was the leader for all Jews?November 27, 2017 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm #1412997
I don’t believe chabadshlucha is denying that there are some who are open to having a discussion, but there are too many loads of nasty comments here. For me, it’s been nearly nothing but. Being curious about a source is of course fine and we will give one, but we assume the Lubavitcher Rebbe himself is a source which we can appeal to. You are, again, not obligated to hold to our sources necessarily, but eilu v eilu divrei Elokim chaim. And much of this discussion seems like everything is divrei Elokim chaim except for what chabad says.November 27, 2017 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #1413000
SH – it may seem that way to some, but to me, it’s peopleNovember 27, 2017 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #1412998
“We have clearly demonstrated that Chabad’s policy is to overtly try to get people to change their minhagim;”
That would be correct if it’s one’s Minhag not to put on Tefilin, or to eat chazir r”l, or to marry a shiktza, but we have no interest in changing your Minhagim. I don’t know why I’m even responding, your mind seems quite resolved about this based on one reply to a non religious person on Chabad.org which had no Minhag. (Unless not being frum is a Minhag).November 27, 2017 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #1413013
The Rebbe said this generation brings moshiach so that would make the Moshiach hador of this generation THE moshiach which the Rebbe said was himself. It can’t be anyone else. In addition to this the Rebbe brings a chosom sofer(halacha) that moshiach will be told he’s moshiach when the time comes and the Rebbe said this happened now. Another disqualifying factor is that the Chazon Ish is not a chosid and the Rebbe said moshiach is a nosi of chassidusNovember 27, 2017 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #1413017
MC – I am not arguing with you but I will disagree strongly. In my own opinion, I don’t see you having gotten loads of nasty comments. I see you have used some pretty strong and POSSIBLY “in your face” language which rebounded with strong responses. I have also seen some isolated, wounded posters who I disregard because they are separate from the conversants, and lastly, I – in my own opinion – noticed you calling out every disagreement to the Rebbe’s words as hateful and insulting when I don’t know that they were either intended that way, or even were that at all. But it would certainly contribute to you feeling surrounded by it.November 27, 2017 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1413029November 27, 2017 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1413019K-cupParticipant
To chabad shlucha and sechel and others. I don’t know how you made it this long. These chabad threads were unfair when the mods edited shlucha for “chashash apikorsus” (doubtful). They allowed a comment in calling the Rebbe some kofer from Russia.
We also allowed a comment calling the Rebbe Nasi Hador. The facts are up for discussing, apikorsus is not.
What you are saying is an explanation on a source can’t be it’s own source. The Rebbe said it can the the reason the rebbe is correct. Chabad isn’t really saying that (even if they are using those words). EG. If you ask where the ramabm got a halacha, you can give the lamdus of where it came from, but I can ask why he is the lone opinion, and the only reaponse is his own svara. Thus he has a source that no one agrees with, and his way of understanding is his own source. Similar to lubavaitch understanding the rambam and different understandings of the Zohar ect. That’s true of pretty much all machlokes. The Rebbe may be wrong, but Chabads way of thinking is really not illogical if his argument is sound, wich chabad for whatever reason thinks is.
- The topic ‘Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha’ is closed to new replies.