Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha

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  • #1411444
    slominer
    Participant

    Has Neville or anyone yet explained why some non-Lubavitchers hold they cannot use a Lubavitcher mikva?

    #1411428
    BurnTFACE
    Participant

    I see that I have generated some interest so here is my story in brief before I get to the nitty-gritty, and believe me every word I type here hurts.

    I was born and rasied in Brooklyn (not CH) in a Lubavitcher family. My parents were never shluchim but they did mivtzoim whenever they could and had labelled all our rooms as “Beis Chabad” as the Rebbe had instructed.

    My education was in Lubavitcher schools and yeshivah and I was in my late teens when the Rebbe had his first stroke. We weren’t happy at the time, to say the least, but we weren’t devastated as we were all confident that this was just a very brief stage in the relevatin of Moshiach.

    When the second more serious stroke came we were even less devastated for two reasons. 1. Since it was not possible that the Rebbe should die, and by all physical appearances it appeared he was going to, it meant that the revelation was even closer. 2. The second stroke was on the exact same date as the first, 27 Adar, and that was obviously a sign that everything was good (more about that sign later).

    The Rebbe passed away on Gimmel Tammuz and at the time I was learning in 770. The levayah was really weird. Most of us bochrim were just waiting for the coffin to open and the Rebbe to jump out. Some people were even dancing. That seemed strange to me and even wrong, but who was I to disrespect someone else’s bitochon when it was stronger than mine.

    I stayed on in 770 and slowly cracks started appearing. Sorry, I take that back. The cracks were always there and I just started noticing them.

    Without mentioning names of people I once held in the highest respect, the same people who had proved to us that the Rebbe was Moshiach because it had to be someone alive and no one else alive was as great as the Rebbe, were saying that there was no reason to say that Moshiach had to be someone alive. And some of them were saying this at the levayah as if they had always had it planned.

    That would hav had to be my first awakening because from then my entire belief system came tumbling down. The Rebbe had said X, and X had always meant Y, and Y must have meant Z so we had to believe with 100% emunoh that Z was true. But now Z was clearly untrue. So the camps divided. Some said that the Rebbe never actually said X. Some said that our math was wrong and that X didn’t really mean Y and then Z, and a third group said that we were right all along and that even though we could all see that Z was untrue the truth was that it was true! (I’ll let you fill in X Y and Z with the various factions and beliefs.)

    Also the Rambam didn’t mean after Gimmel Tammuz what the Rambam meant before Gimmel Tammuz, and the Gemora in Sanhedrin could be interpreted according to the new and correct facts, not the way we and the entire Lubavitch saw the facts before Gimmel Tammuz.

    It was then I understood what a number of contributors have been saying all along. It was all based on the words of one man and lo and behold that man had been wrong.

    But we are Lubavitches, and Lubavitchers are Russians, and Russians are obstinate, how else could we have survived behind the Iron curtain for so long? So the conclusion reached by the masses was that we have to start from the end and work our way back.

    Start with “The Rebbe is Moshiach”. That is the number one believe that is not negotiable. Anything that doesn’t fit with that must be wrong.

    The conclusion after more than twenty years of living a lie is that Chabadhlucha, as naïve as she might be, Seichel Hayashar, Moshiachat and all the others are spouting things that are based on the above fact: the Rebbe is Moshiach. Who cares if he said it himself? Who cares if the Rambam or Chazal disagree? I myself have heard big Lubavitchers say outright that it doesn’t matter if the Rebbe fits in with the Rambam’s definition of Chezkas Moshiach. The Rebbe is the greatest man who ever lived and he was greater than the Rambam. Ask a Lubvitcher whether he believes that and if he is honest he will say that he does.

    Boruch Hashem when my world came tumbling down I didn’t lose my faith in Hashem, and as I wrote in my first post I am one of the very very few who have stayed Chassidish despite leaving LUbavitch. That was the hardest part of the nisoyon, and I have no one in Lubavitch to thank for my staying frum.

    To all my former colleagues in Chabad, forget about trying to convince others because you are living in a non-existent world where the Rebbe was always right and the Rebbe was a Novi.

    No, he wasn’t a novi, and if you insist on calling him a novi then he must have been a certain type of novi mentioned in parshas Shoiftim.

    #1411461
    CS
    Participant

    @mdd1 apparently you do not know much about the Rebbe and his tremendous gadlus in Torah.

    To everyone wondering why I would think they would be “won over” to being a meshichist solely by what the Rebbe said, let me clarify:

    I’m not trying to convince or win over anyone, and that was completely not my intention in the first place. As you can see, not even 100% of Lubavitch subscribe to this view, so I certainly wasn’t looking to convince you, nor did it matter to the Rebbe.

    My sole point was to show you why most of us lubavitchers would think of the Rebbe in this way, and to show you that we have a solid base for ourselves, and obviously to us, even if the Rebbe was the only source it, that would be fine because we are the Rebbe’s chassis in.

    As for sechel hayashars concerns, and the others like him, that we are being merachek people, I disagree. I think there are many people here who have found this informative, and whoever comes here with an open mind can understand that mainstream Lubavitch is not crazy to think the way they do, they just rely heavily on what their Rebve says, and if he is a tzaddik that shouldn’t pose any issue

    That doesn’t mean anyone else needs to think like us, because the Rebbe is not your Rebbe so understandably you may not rely on what he says with the same degree of bitty that we have towards our Rebbe.

    Also, the people who are predisposed negatively are more likely to comment than those who merely find this interesting… and as Moshiach chat explained, the Rebbe allowed more and more to be said publicly as time went on, so I really don’t think it’s a problem. Aderabe, I’m just trying to create more achdus by explaining where we are coming from…

    #1411465
    slominer
    Participant

    Certain rabbonim have said that the Lubavitcher Rebbe zt’l was a tzaddik but that at a certain date in his life he lost some mental acuity and things he said thereafter weren’t necessarily able to be accepted at face value. Is there any accuracy to this change in his behavior and what timeline would this fall in (i.e. the 70s, 80s)?

    #1411463
    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @BURNTface,
    “Seichel Hayashar, Moshiachat and all the others are spouting things that are based on the above fact: the Rebbe is Moshiach. ”
    Have you even read anything I wrote here? Or because it doesn’t fit the narrative that you want to sell everyone you’ll put words in my mouth?!

    #1411473
    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @ChabadShlucha,
    “As for sechel hayashars concerns, and the others like him, that we are being merachek people, I disagree.”
    I’m sure you mean this with full sincerity, but:
    1. It is being and has been meracheik Yidden; just look at some responses on this very thread.
    2. It’s not my concern, it’s the Rebbes concern, which he raised many times, and which caused him great agmas nefesh. Don’t argue that that was then, but it’s not applicable anymore, because you can patently observe this right here.

    #1411499
    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    MoshiacChat, in the interest of maintaining the (more-or-less) respectful tone of this thread, when you refer to Rabbanim, can you please use their well deserved titles? e.g. Rav Mordechai Eliyahu, etc, lest people jump to the conclusion that you don’t respect them since they are not Chabad Rabbanim.

    #1411504
    Joseph
    Participant

    Sechel, are you asking ChabdShlucha to shush up from speaking the truth because, even though it is the truth as she and many or most Lubavitchers believe, that truth is scaring non-Lubavitchers from Lubavitch?

    #1411513
    Phil
    Participant

    “Aderabe, I’m just trying to create more achdus by explaining where we are coming from,,,”

    CS,

    The only thing that these nine pages of posts have accomplished, is to convince the rest of Klal Yisrael that Chabad is comprised of the nicest mental patients that one can ever hope to meet. Some may consider that achdus but you should probably ask that this thread be closed.

    #1411528
    MoshiachChat
    Participant

    @WinnieThePoo

    I referred to the people I quoted as “gedolim” is that not an honorary title? Pardon the directness, but proof positive: Are you a gadol, Winnie? I guess bashing other groups is common amongst the anti chabad crowd, but I don’t insult gedolim of world Jewry. I don’t question their legitimacy. Rav Mordechai Eliyahu is obviously a Rav, the Baba Sali was a true tzaddik and his grandson is coming to speak at my shul tonight and tell us stories about him. There are many great and wonderful jews, but that isn’t the point. The point is people are smacking lubavitch around and pretending our Rebbe was shvach when he was nothing but. Thanks for really focusing on the big issues, Poo. (I’m sassy, don’t take it personally)

    Well if you reread her post you will find out you aren’t just sassy but wrongly so rudely defensive

     

    #1411529
    MoshiachChat
    Participant

    @WinnieThePooh

    Also Winnie, I’m typing on a phone and the formatting is just terrible. I say words in my head sometimes and don’t write them, but because the format is so shvach so I can’t see if I wrote them or not without an annoyance factor. I’m also used to just referring to him as Mordechai Eliyahu as I refer to Rav soloveichik as “Soloveichik”. I like to think it’s a compliment to say the name and everyone knows who u are talking about. Shows how special they are. But I did refer to “Soloveichik” in an earlier message as “the Rav”. Perhaps u didn’t see it? In any case, no disrespect is meant ch”v ch”v.

    #1411530
    Phil
    Participant

    “…lest people jump to the conclusion that you don’t respect them since they are not Chabad Rabbanim”

    Winnie,

    That’s a long-standing issue. I recall thirty-five years ago, a son-in-law of one of the leading Chabad families asked me how “Shneur Kotler” was doing, during his final illness.

    #1411531
    slominer
    Participant

    I believe BurnTFACE’s comment #1411428, about 12 comments above mine here on this page, is an important read. Perhaps he can further comment and expound on his experiences as a Lubavitcher.

    #1411532
    Put down the gun
    Participant

    Burntface,Was that a typo when you said that seichel hayashar is basing everything on the premise that the rebbe is moshiach? I’m very curious to know if that was a mistake.

    #1411701
    K-cup
    Participant

    @Put the gun down, put down your gun, someone skimmed 7 pages of posts instead of reading and remembering each Lubavaitcher position it’s really not a big deal. His point was his experience with Chabad.

    #1411699
    The little I know
    Participant

    The insanity of this subject still behooves me.

    Chabad chassidus has a history of making emunas tzaddikim into something quite extreme. They have been accused for generations, long before the birth of this last Rebbe ZT”L as deifying their rebbe. I possess testimony to that.

    I can give anyone here a blanket guarantee that my Avodas Hashem will NEVER improve the tiniest iota if i were to believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach. It would improve if I were to engage myself in following Taryag Mitzvos in a stronger way, more kavvanah, etc. Limud Hatorah is precious, and it does not include the hours and days of time spent in fabricating explanations to justify the obsession that forms the subject of this thread and another one like it. I provide my guarantee that wearing a Yechi yarmulka will not hasten the geula. I also would oppose the singing to the chair stuff, regardless of whether during davening or after, as it represents a diversion from the focus on HKB”H to a bosor vodom. To a greatly smaller degree this exists in other factions of Klal Yisroel, other chassidishe groups, and even some yeshivos. It is a bizayon and chilul Hashem, and our generation should stop replacing Kavod Shomayim with aggrandizing its leaders.

    #1411698
    MoshiachChat
    Participant

    @phil

    “Long-Standing issue” u quoted ONE FAMILY. Are u joking?! And every chabad publication I’ve seen refer to these people as “Rav”. Conversations are shorthand. Sometimes I refer to them as Rav in conversation and sometimes I don’t. It’s no big sweat. Stop trying to judge Jews unfavorably just to cause issues. Nothing but sinas chinum.

    #1411713
    Phil
    Participant

    MoshiachChat,

    Then it’s OK to sometimes refer to the Rebbe as “Schneerson”, which is how he referred to himself? Or will that get you all wound-up? Please display true ahavas yisrael and always extend the same respect to other Rabbonim that you expect for your own.

    #1411719
    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    MashiachChat- I didn’t say you were bashing gedolim, nor that this was a big issue, I just politely asked that you call them Rav, as appropriate, and now I will add, and please do it consistently, not just sometimes. I do find it problematic that you are used to referring to them as Mordechai Eliyahu or Soloveitchik. It is not a compliment. The fact that you are using a phone has not prevented you from typing out long posts, or being sassy, as you call it, so I think you can manage another 3 letters, R-A-V.
    Thank you.

    #1411712
    CS
    Participant

    @sechelhayashar

    You asked where I thought you didn’t express yourself as a Xhosa I’d. Since others on this group have asked about the topic and since you are anonymous I will respond. Please don’t take this as an attack, it is not.

    I was referring to your comments of “Even a woman can understand this.” Also, later on, you tried to dismiss my comments because I am a woman, without being misogynistic of course (wry smile.)

    Now you also defended me when slominer suspected I was a man, so like I said this isn’t an attack, just would like to clarify the Rebbe’s position on the matter.

    Yes, Noshim Daaton Kaalos, but also Bina yeseira nitna l’isha, A’s explained above. Also, I dont think readily admitting when I don’t know something but am happy to look it up, shows I’m confused by merely intellectually honest.

    I have heard it said by Rabbi Simon Jacobson in his my life chassidus applied series, and Rabbi Yaffe, dean of Talmudical Academy, respectively, that the Rebbe said that although everyone needs to learn chassidus, women should especially learn it because since they have an additional gift of Bina, they can understand the deeper concepts even better.

    Do you know that when Rabbi Gershon Mendel Garelik was lonely in far off Italy, especially as he had no chevrusa, the Rebbe suggested he learn with his wife?

    And lest you think that was an exception, the Rebbe encouraged husbands and wives to learn together on a regular basis, as a way of strengthening their bond.

    As a matter of fact, I myself prepare my husband a nice breakfast while he goes to an early minyan, and then we learn together after breakfast for a half hour. And I have kids.
    Sometimes I explain to him the material and sometimes he explains.

    Do you know the Rebbe said special sichos for women only? And no sichos for men only?

    Just to clinch this, I was thinking of discussing some questions that have come up on this thread with the bochurim shluchim who were coming over on Shabbos, and my husband,without asking what the questions were, told me there was no point. Because if I didn’t know the answers, the bochurim wouldn’t either as none were exceptionally brilliant.

    Now that sounds allot more like the Rebbe’s approach on women, and women’s learning especially.

    I’m assuming you are in shidduchim or will be starting soon. I’d suggest you learn the Sefer of the Rebbe’s sichos on women “El nshei uvnos Yisrael” and learn it as women, with their Bina yeseira are quick to discern what you think of their intellectual capabilities:)

    @moshiachat you make good points but you should spell out words properly. It will lend credence to what you are saying.

    @everyone I challenge those quiet spectators to speak up and tell me whether this has helped you understand the Lubavitch views on the Rebbe better, in a positive way, so that we can allay sechel hayashars concerns for good. If yes, maybe I will address an additional topic that has been in the background. If not, maybe he is right and I shall comment no further

    #1411738
    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @Joseph,
    “that truth is scaring non-Lubavitchers from Lubavitch?”
    No that is not what I mean. I don’t know how much clearer I can be here, as I’ve said many times, I don’t believe it to be the truth, and to the contrary, it puts people off. And even someone who does consider it the truth should still recognize that there’s a time and a place for everything.

    All those bashing Moshiach Chat for not using the title Rav:
    He should have called them Rav and it’s disrespectful not to. However it’s not about them, it’s a general attitude that some people have, you will find Lubavitchers calling some of our great Rabbinim by their first names. For example Yoel for R Yoel Kahan, Meilach for R Elimelech Zwiebel A”H and so on and forth.

    #1411739
    CS
    Participant

    And now that I’ve agreed with moshiach chats positions i must completely disagree with your disgraceful post to WTP

    #1411744
    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @ChabadShlucha,
    You have completely misunderstood me. As I clarified earlier, I said Noshim Daatan Kallos only in a joking way, because you yourself had used it before. I even added a smiley face:). And I wrote that you will understand it, even though you are fond saying noshim datan kalos.

    “you tried to dismiss my comments because I am a woman, without being misogynistic of course (wry smile.)”
    I was trying to explain why you might have come across the way they thought you did, and I stand by what I said, and I do not consider myself misogynistic at all.

    I am well aware of the Rebbes yachas to women, and I am someone who I think knows the Rebbes shittos quite well.


    with their Bina yeseira are quick to discern what you think of their intellectual capabilities:)”

    I do not think women are of inferior intellectual standing in any way, I was speaking about women’s emotions, which I said were stronger.

    “discussing some questions that have come up on this thread with the bochurim shluchim who were coming over on Shabbos, ”

    I wonder how many of those bochurim shluchim I know:) which Yeshiva were they in? Also, I’ve discussed different parts of Torah with various Shluchos at their Shabbos tables, and I’m no stranger to a woman’s intellectual prowess. I’m quite taken aback by your portrayal of me as some kind of misogynistic guy who doesn’t know what the Rebbe says about women learning Torah.

    “I’m assuming you are in shidduchim or will be starting soon. ”
    Not a bad guess:) Closer to the latter.

    #1411742
    slominer
    Participant

    <“maybe I will address an additional topic that has been in the background.”>

    Chabadshlucha: Please *do* address that additional topic. I, and I think others, will be seriously disappointed if you don’t.

    #1411763
    CS
    Participant

    @sechel hayashar as I said not a personal attack, but what you said could have been seriously misconstrued so I’m glad we clarified. The bochurim shluchim were in OT last year. If you are the same year, although I’d put you at a year older, then you may quite possibly know my brother. It’s really too bad the anonymity rule, huh?:)

    #1411773
    CS
    Participant

    @Slominer thank you kindly, but judging by the published reactions, it appears that sechel may be right and others may just not “get” us. I’d be happy to be proven wrong though:)

    #1411775
    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @ChabadShlucha,
    “The bochurim shluchim were in OT last year. If you are the same year, although I’d put you at a year older,”
    Pretty good guess. I meant which Yeshiva are they Shluchim in?

    #1411859
    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @ChabadShlucha,
    “it appears that sechel may be right and others may just not “get” us. I’d be happy to be proven wrong though:)”
    I’d be very happy to be proven wrong, and I’d love to believe that no matter what ones beliefs are (as long as they’re not contrary to the Ikrei HaDas) other Yidden won’t respect them any less. Unfortunately I’ve been right about this time and time again, it’s quite similar to lehavdil in the goyishe world where we see such discord, and hate for other ideological viewpoints. We as Yidden, who have the concept of Ahavas Yisrael, and Shivim Ponim Latorah, (and machlokes sheinah lshem Shomayim) should be above such pettiness.

    #1412032
    Ash
    Participant

    @moshiachchat I am disgusted at your referring to Harav Again R Moshe Feinstein zt”l without the title Rav let alone a proper honorific. Ditto Harav Mordechai Eliyohu. I’d like to believe it was an error, except you repeated this gross error twice in the same post.

    If this was intentional it says very little of the maalos of following a rebbe even after his petira.

    See what the rambam writes about bizui talmidei chachomim bring the main cause delaying moshiach. Oh, the irony!

    #1412042
    slominer
    Participant

    Sechel – In your rough estimation, a) what percent of Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is Moshiach and b) what percent believe the Rebbe isn’t Moshiach? Do you agree with Chabadshlucha that an overwhelming majority of Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is Moshiach?

    #1412062
    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @slominer,
    ” In your rough estimation, a) what percent of Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is Moshiach and b) what percent believe the Rebbe isn’t Moshiach? Do you agree with Chabadshlucha that an overwhelming majority of Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is Moshiach?”
    That’s a tough question, and I didn’t answer it until now because Chabad Shlucha already did.
    I would say that in my experience in Yeshiva, it’s not something that I’ve really heard discussed. No one says “I believe the Rebbe is Moshiach or I don’t believe” most of the debate is usually about saying Yechi (which I’d say majority of American Lubavitchers don’t) or other such slogans, or debate on the effect that Meshichistim have on tarnishing our image.
    If I had to estimate how many Lubavitchers believe wholeheartedly that the Rebbe will for sure be Moshiach, I’d say roughly as high (or low as, depending on your perspective) as 60-70% percent. It’s also quite difficult so define “believe that the Rebbe will be Moshiach” ie, how much do you believe it? Bemunah Sheleima or you think or hope that he will be, but it’s kind of inconsequential. Also as I said, people very rarely talk about such a personal belief. (Unless they’re Meshichist).
    I hope this answers your question somewhat.

    #1412075
    DovidBT
    Participant

    @Chabadshlucha

    I have the impression that, within Chabad, the Rebbe’s writings, beliefs and practices are considered beyond question. I.e., they can be studied, but disagreeing with them is not acceptable. Is that accurate?

    (That may have been covered earlier, but with over 400 posts in this topic, I can’t remember. By the way, it might be helpful to have a permanent article posted somewhere that summarizes all the answers provided in this topic.)

    #1412100
    litvisherchossid
    Participant

    “I am disgusted at your referring to Harav Again R Moshe Feinstein zt”l without the title Rav let alone a proper honorific. Ditto Harav Mordechai Eliyohu. I’d like to believe it was an error, except you repeated this gross error twice in the same post”.
    —sadly that was no typo that’s why it was repeated, lubavitchers don’t address rabbis outside of chabad as title “Rabbi”. They just say their name, I mean after all…

    #1412104
    MoshiachChat
    Participant

    This has nothing to do with lubavitchers. I happen to do it on occasion as I’ve never seen someone freak out about it before. While u may argue it’s disrespectful, it certaintly wasn’t intended that way. But u also ignore the part where I said I also say “rav” in front of their names as well. I don’t davka not say “rav” cause I find them all worthless or something ch’v. As I’ve said before, all the chabad publications I’ve seen have referred to them with a proper title. Idk where this chabad disrespect nonsense is coming from. Stop hating just to hate it’s getting annoying

    #1412107
    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    What!
    Everyone says rav/ rebbe / Harav

    #1412110
    Uncle Ben
    Participant

    Sechel; Just curious, if Lubavicher chadorim don’t have limudei chol, where did you get such an excellent vocabulary and writing skills?

    #1412111
    2scents
    Participant

    I think that the Lubabitch posters have already made it very clear that they meant no disrespect for not including Rav or Harav.

    Bashing has no place, this should be respectful discussion or debate. The majority of people hold that the Lubabitcher Rebbe was a Talmid Chachim and Tzadid, and Lubabitch in general does a great deal of good stuff.

    #1412114
    2scents
    Participant

    To the chabad posters, similar to what you have asked.

    Do the responses and concerns about the Rebbe still being Moshiach made you understand why some won’t accept what you otherwise accept as logical and factual?

    #1412116
    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @MoshiachChat,
    For good or for bad (bad) you’ve become a representative of Lubavitch here. So watch what you say, grow up, and apologise. It’s not respectful to call any Rov by his first name, and certainly not one of the stature of Harav Moshe Feinstein.

    #1412125
    slominer
    Participant

    Chabadshlucha – I’d like to hear that thought you were considering sharing.

    Why is tznius not up to par in Crown Heights?

    What’s “chillul Lubavitch” mean and how’s it differ from c”H (and why don’t other groups have a “chillul their-sect”)?

    #1412132
    MoshiachChat
    Participant

    @2scents

    I can understand people who don’t hold by what the Rebbe said, but I have yet to see a rational argument for why lubavitchers can’t believe it for themselves based on their own rebbes statements and other sources.

    #1412137
    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @UncleBen
    “Sechel; Just curious, if Lubavicher chadorim don’t have limudei chol, where did you get such an excellent vocabulary and writing skills?”
    Thanks for the compliment. It’s not unique to me, many Lubavitchers have excellent English language skills, if you really want to know English, it doesn’t have to happen at school. Lots of reading in English will usually have the same effect.

    #1412139
    MoshiachChat
    Participant

    Sechel HaYashar

    You have done nothing but insult me, but u want to talk about manners? Gave me a break. I already nicely said I didn’t mean any disrespect by what I said. I’m happy to refer to them with the term Rav if people are that offended by it(as I’ve already said). None of what I said was intended to take away from Rav Moshe Feinstein’s kovod (the posek haDor) or any other great rabbanim which I have mentioned.

    You say I’m such a terrible representation of lubavitch despite UR continuous personal attacks, but notice I don’t ch’v say ur a ch’v embarrassment to our Rebbe. No, u decided to say that about me. How about u show people what lubavitch is about and treat a fellow Lubavitcher respectfully even tho his only crime has been to disagree with u.

    #1412140
    MoshiachChat
    Participant

    @2scents

    Thank you for highlighting that I meant no respect. I said it multiple times but people for some reason could see that part

    #1412142
    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    Chillel lubavitch is just like chillel hashem.
    Chillel hashem is embarrassing hashem name.
    And chillel lubavitch. Is making a embarrassment of lubavitch.

    And why did someone u know who you are have to right lubavitch with a b.? Looks like a curse word….

    #1412143
    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    It’s not that uncommon to refer to Reb Moshe more casually than most rabbis. Let’s not grasp for straws when there are plenty of real points to bring up.

    #1412165
    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @MoshiachChat,
    “How about u show people what lubavitch is about and treat a fellow Lubavitcher respectfully even tho his only crime has been to disagree with u.”
    It’s not about me and you. This is about the kavod of our Rebbe. I believe that you (unintentionally) are causing our Rebbe much agmas nefesh and I will call you out on that. I have respect for you as a fellow Yid and a Lubavitcher, but I have no respect for the part of you that thinks that doing what you’re doing is somehow being moisif Kavod to the Rebbe.

    #1412150
    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Also, just got around do reading the Shabbos candles debate. To the Chabad camp:

    Why do you care whether or not the Holocaust theory is true? Why do you care about the merits of one minhag vs the other? You honestly don’t see the problem with chabad.org (which we all know is “toned-down” Lubavitch) posting a teary-eyed success story about how they got non Lubavitchers to betray their minhag and directly insult their elderly grandmother? Seriously, do you really not see the problem, or are you just playing dumb to skirt the issue?

    #1412151
    slominer
    Participant

    Sechel – You’re a Lubavitcher who is a strong believer that the Rebbe is not Moshiach, as you’ve explained numerous times. Yet, nevertheless, you forthrightly acknowledge that upwards of 70% of Lubavitchers are believers that the Rebbe is Moshiach. 70%.

    You’ve explained that it isn’t halachicly problematic believing that a certain person who is no longer among those living with us on earth is Moshiach. And you seem correct on that point, from what I can understand. But, I think, you’ve also acknowledged that believing a certain person who passed away is Moshiach is very silly. So how do you feel about and explain and personally reconcile with the fact that a large majority of your fellow Lubavitchers believe this very silly belief?

    #1412197
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I believe that you (unintentionally) are causing Hashem much agmas nefesh and I will call you out on that. I have respect for you as a fellow Yid and a Lubavitcher, but I have no respect for the part of you that thinks that doing what you’re doing is somehow being moisif Kavod to the RSH”O. Which is exactly what I and some others have done as well and were called haters and bashers. I’m sorry if some of you don’t understand why Lubavitch ways are (even more clearly now) problematic to many of us but you all should be willing to accept and respect that in the same context as SH’s comments above. It is not fair for people standing up for Torah to be called haters for having hashgofic disagreements and (generally) stating so respectfully.
    The posts that are hateful are obviously so, and can be discounted by both sides. The nasty sly comments, digs and cutting remarks that are being fired, but with a big smile, against misnagdim (as you’ve declared me) is much more hate filled than legitimate disagreement with a derech that goes contrary to what we know to be right. If I disagree with you, even if I believe that your ways are black and white knegged Torah, that STILL does not give you the right to call me a hater of Chabad. one has nothing to do with the other.

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