Mussar from current events

What Mussar do we derive? from the fact that Ariel Sharon O’H now shares the same Johrzeit as the 6th [Friederk] Lubavitcher Rebbe, 64 years later.

Haleivi

I’m just sick and tired of the way everyone is so focused on the post and aiming all this useless energy at them.

Are they anti semitic? Probably.

Do they care that we are upset? No they are happy because that means that it was a good headline. If nobody gets moved by it it’s a dull headline.

Will they apologize? No! This is how they operate they get dirt on somebody and then post sensational headlines to draw shoppers attention to buy their paper. They cater to the lowest common denominator in society. So if you are a frum person and buy the post then it includes you.

I’m just wondering when was the last time the community got this upset that chas veshalom a child was molested or that chas veshalom someone was oiver on lo signov or some other issur? We aren’t even upset about the actual story just how it was printed! Shame on us! Where’s the editorials about this? Why aren’t all the speakers shraying chay vekayom about the rampant dishonesty in our communities? Why don’t the Rabbonim come out publicly and say if your money ain’t Kosher we don’t want it? I’m just so sick and tired of all the chillul Hashem. If we don’t break the law they won’t have juicy stories to write about us. So how about we stop giving them and the NY slimes and other similar publications fodder?

A good illustration of the fact that there are only 354 days in a year. Nights and Knights are included.

Pompeii was. America is.

GAW, though you admit that Anti-Zionism “is not inherently bad”, you malign them as “making it into its own Avoda Zara”?

Not to directly compare (despite that many gedolim have made such a comparison), but would you say the same about Eliyahu HaNavi fighting Baal-worship – that he “made it into its own Avoda Zara”?

I don’t understand how you could possibly apply that particular term when – how ironic – Zionism is Avoda Zara (and also has plenty of at least one of the other two of the big three aveiros for good measure); which makes Zionism a rather serious matter. And I also don’t know of much anti-Zionist “action” that would remotely make that comparison, “its own Avoda Zara”, seem correct.

So what exactly is it about those anti-Zionists that prompted you to dub their almost single-handed fight against this Avoda Zara, with the name, of all things, of an “Avoda Zara”?

You can’t compare what these people are doing to the original fight against zionism. These people don’t even know what they are protesting. There are no real zionists left alive so you can’t have an real anti zionists.

Imagine if they spent their efforts fighting abusers they way they spend their efforts fighting zionism

I think thats a first, that someone actually agreed with something I said

WIY, a cursory glance at the Israeli news here on YWN indicates that Zionist shmad is still very much in force.

The ever-present goal and indeed raison d’etre of Zionism is shmad, to create a new Jew on the ashes of Judaism, CH”V. This has not changed. In fact, it is now, in some ways, worse because of the current intensification of shmading charedim.

It’s not as you think that “[t]hese people don’t even know what they are protesting.” Perhaps it is you who doesn’t understand what it is they are (and, perhaps everyone should be) protesting.

HaKatan – Only to someone like you. I’m very sorry that you can’t (and I don’t expect you to) understand. Everyone else here does.

Avram:

There are very strong anti-Zionists who live under Israeli rule. One has nothing to do with the other. The Zionist usurpers came and decided to create their abominable State in Eretz Yisrael.

That is not, in and of itself, a reason to leave Eretz Yisrael. But, at this point, the Zionist shmad is becoming so unbearable that some Yeshivos are indeed contemplating leaving.

Israel surrendering to Hamas is obviously not either what they should do.

But there are many theoretical possibilities in between, CH”V, shmad and hisgarus baUmos versus large-scale suicide.

But what there is to practically do all has nothing to do with Zionism being (just as practically) idolatry.

Hakatan, you are, I think, misrepresenting GAW’s view. He did say that anti-Zionism is not an inherently bad thing. That doesn’t sound like something a Zionist would say.

You might want to rephrase your assessment of the Satan’s achievement, and instead say, “This A”Z of Zionism is so offensive that even those who don’t worship this A”Z refer to people who fight the A”Z as ovdei avoda zara. What an achievement by the Satan!”.

HaKatan,

There are very strong anti-Zionists who live under Israeli rule.

But since “Israeli rule” came about due to Zionism, they certainly do not see that situation as desirable. I want to know what your idea is for where we should go from here, if we woke up one morning and Zionist ideology was gone.

One has nothing to do with the other.

The fact of Israeli rule has everything to do with Zionism. Zionism brought about the State of Israel.

I have heard a lot about how Zionism is idolatry, how it’s evil, how it’s shmad, etc. Fine. What I’d like to know is, what is your plan if you could do something about it?

The Zionist usurpers came and decided to create their abominable State in Eretz Yisrael.

But it’s done. 65 years ago. Now there’s nearly 6 million Jews living there, and hundreds of millions of Arabs surrounding those Jews who hate them with every fiber of their beings. So where do we go from here?? I’m honestly curious about your ideas. Suppose all 6 million Israelis came around to your way of thinking.

That is not, in and of itself, a reason to leave Eretz Yisrael.

That’s sidestepping my question. What do we do about the State of Israel?

there are many theoretical possibilities in between, CH”V, shmad and hisgarus baUmos versus large-scale suicide.

Ok! So what are some of these possibilities? You can’t just tear down without building up.

Gavra, did you ever read ????? ????? R’ Reuven explains the difference in approach between the Agudah and Neturai Karta. I think it’s quite relevant to where this discussion has gone.

Start with:

?????? ?? ?????? ???? ?????

I haven’t finished the sefer yet, but I think I’ve got a pretty good handle on the overall hashkafah.

When I get a chance I’ll try to get you a more specific reference.

HaLeiVi, R’ Reueven’s approach is indeed considered the mainstream “yeshivish” approach.

Gavra, the basic approach to how to view those “to the right” of us, who completely disassociate themselves, can be found on the bottom of page 17.

You’ll enjoy the top of the page as well, where you might be tempted to invoke Godwin’s law.

I think what he writes (page 35) about Neturai Karta (of those days, not today’s loonies who stole the name) applies to Satmar/Eidah today.

Page 21 is very instructive as to why we believe that Lapid and his chevra do not in any way have the b’nei Torah’s best interest at heart.

GAW:

The choice of words, calling their anti-Zionism an A”Z, is poor and also offensive to the Torah, regardless of what practical solutions there are or are not.

As to meeting with Ben Gurion, who was and is a Zionist “idol”, the Brisker Rav refused to do so. The Chazon Ish did do so out of necessity. Even the Brisker Rav worked with a Chareidi MK to try to save whatever could be salvaged from the utter disaster of Zionist conquest of Eretz Yisrael.

Regardless, I believe you are very mistaken that today is functionally any different/better than 70 years ago. Zionist shmad is much worse (every kid forced to go into the IDF, to become “Israeli”, meaning to lose their Yahadus? At least, back then, they left alone the native chareidim who preceded the Zionists in the land); even worse hisgarus baUmos; the same Zionist ideology which is kefirah in kol haTorah kulah (and not “only” the three oaths) according to the Brisker Rav.

Rav Chaim Brisker said over 100 years ago that the goal of Zionism is shmad and a means to that end is a State. Not the other way around. This has not changed.

No, the concern is shmad, not money. If it were really all about money then they would treat the Chareidim no worse than they do their Israeli Arab citizens, and would not make the Chareidim serve in the IDF (which is not a “Jewish-oriented army” any more than any other deviance like Jews for J would be, in your view, “Jewish-oriented”).

More importantly, the Zionists should allow the Chareidim to work with full rights and privileges, as does any Israeli, even without any form of IDF service regardless of how long they learn full-time.

Then, once they compare the amounts they give Chareidi students to the amount they give to, say, secular college students, then the Zionists can talk about money. It’s not the money.

The Zionist shmad and discrimination against Chareidim is abhorrent.

GAW:

“…discuss how to destroy the state (killing many yidden in the process) with Sonei Yisroel than discuss how to help Yidden with someone who isn’t even a Zionist.”

This is not accepted by anyone other than NK (though even by NK it’s still ironic to label that A”Z when they are fighting the greatest A”Z of the era).

As to your second point, his grandson said Rav Chaim’s words absolutely do have bearing today. In fact, he and others have openly stated that, if the Zionists don’t stop their shmad, that Russia of today would then be preferable to living in E”Y under the Zionists.

You and many others refuse to open your eyes to the shmad and idolatry that is Zionism and instead view Zionism and the State as essentially a good thing, R”L. Also indisputable, and openly admitted by Zionists both then and now, is that the cultural indoctrination organ of Zionism is the IDF.

Were this reality to be understood and accepted despite the A”Z of Zionism, it would be quite obvious that, no, it was not hyperbole.

So, as I wrote, clarified:

The choice of words, calling “mainstream” anti-Zionism (i.e. the Torah’s view) an A”Z, is poor and also offensive to the Torah…

It isnt about the Draft,the Army doesnt want them.

Its about the government programs.The charedim want to continue to get government handouts and most of the average Israelis are struggling themselves.

The Charedim are using the Army as the excuse not to work

The Charedim are using the Army as the excuse not to work

Except that it’s not true. Chareidim a) want to learn (there’s no draft in the US, and there are b”H plenty of Kollel men learning with hasmada) and b) don’t want to be in a treif environment.

There’s absolutely nothing in chareidi doctrine which is against work per se.

HaKatan, why in your rants against Zionism do you insert expressions in Zionist havara such as Eretz Yisrael (not Yisroel),Eliyahu HaNavi (not HaNovi), Brisker Rabbanim (not Rabbonim) and avoda zara (not zora)? Are you a troll after all, or are you just incontistent?

DaasYochid, thank you for your defense on my behalf to this baseless attack.

Naftush:

Your “defense” on behalf of the idolatry of Zionism is consistent, speaking of consistency.

As it happens, my written “havara” is, of course, not Zionist.

For three reasons, I choose to transliterate a kamatz using “a” rather than “o”, even though the “a” happens to also be used for a patach.

1 – There are many English words spelled with an “a” that, in many parts of the United States, are pronounced similar to an Ashkenaz kamatz.

2 – Words in Lashon HaKodesh that contain a cholam are also spelled with the same letter “o”. So “a” and “o” are both already “taken” and, therefore, neither is more suitable to be used for a kamatz than is the other, in this regard.

3 – I have heard some mispronounce the kamatz in “Yisrael” as in “mow” or “grow”, et al. I believe this error is perpetuated in part due to the choice of spelling “Yisrael” with an “o” rather than an “a”.

Regarding actual havara, this intentional mispronunciation of a kamatz as a patach by “Religious Zionists” seems to be done out of foolishness of identifying with Zionism which (never mind the A”Z) somehow justifies throwing away your mesorah, of differentiating between kamatz and patach, because a secular Zionist chose that havara for the then-newly-created “Modern Hebrew”?

So, while the use of “a” rather than “o” for a “kamatz” is relevant to Zionism due to the above, the reason that I use an “a” rather than an “o” for a kamatz is, of course, not to, CH”V, imitate the Israeli secular havara as some inexplicably do in their davening contrary to their mesorah, but rather that I believe it is better to use “a” than to use “o”, as explained above.

HaKatan,

Am I to suppose, since you did not respond, that you do not have an answer for what the Jewish people should do in order to make teshuva now that a state has existed for over 60 years, and the Jewish population has swelled to nearly 6 million? If you cannot say what should be done, then what is the use of your ranting against Zionism, as it won’t effect any change?

Avram in MD:

Not a good supposition, no. Your premises are faulty throughout.

What do you mean “the Jewish people should do in order to make teshuva”?

The Jewish presence in Eretz Yisrael long predates Zionism, and does not require teshuva for living in Eretz Yisrael with no political rule or ambition and with permission of the nations.

Incidentally, Rav SRH was very against the observant movement Chovevei Tziyon, who were not Zionists, and, chacham adif miNavi, sure enough, “Religious Zionism” and Zionism are both good examples of how correct he was.

On the other hand, if your question is what should the Zionists do to stop their ill-conceived and shmad-fueled rule of Eretz Yisrael, as in what Teshuva can they do?

The very least they could do is stop shmading our brethren and they could also renounce Zionism in favor of Judaism, for starters. True, there are other significant issues remaining. But that would be a good start.