Mussar from current events

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  • #611814
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    One observation I notice is that when some morals go down the drain, the rest follow. It starts with Gilui Arayos and it continues on to Shefichas Damim.

    #1001243
    peacefull
    Member

    Reminds me of the daf while back which debated whether the Chumra of Tumah was great or the lightness of Shfichas Domim was outrages.

    #1001244
    147
    Participant

    What Mussar do we derive? from the fact that Ariel Sharon O’H now shares the same Johrzeit as the 6th [Friederk] Lubavitcher Rebbe, 64 years later.

    #1001245

    A good illustration of the fact that there are only 354 days in a year.

    #1001246
    WIY
    Member

    Haleivi

    I’m just sick and tired of the way everyone is so focused on the post and aiming all this useless energy at them.

    Are they anti semitic? Probably.

    Do they care that we are upset? No they are happy because that means that it was a good headline. If nobody gets moved by it it’s a dull headline.

    Will they apologize? No! This is how they operate they get dirt on somebody and then post sensational headlines to draw shoppers attention to buy their paper. They cater to the lowest common denominator in society. So if you are a frum person and buy the post then it includes you.

    I’m just wondering when was the last time the community got this upset that chas veshalom a child was molested or that chas veshalom someone was oiver on lo signov or some other issur? We aren’t even upset about the actual story just how it was printed! Shame on us! Where’s the editorials about this? Why aren’t all the speakers shraying chay vekayom about the rampant dishonesty in our communities? Why don’t the Rabbonim come out publicly and say if your money ain’t Kosher we don’t want it? I’m just so sick and tired of all the chillul Hashem. If we don’t break the law they won’t have juicy stories to write about us. So how about we stop giving them and the NY slimes and other similar publications fodder?

    #1001247
    fkelly
    Member

    Well said WIY!! +1

    #1001248
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    A good illustration of the fact that there are only 354 days in a year. Nights and Knights are included.

    #1001249
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    WIY, I’m not lecturing a Goyish newspaper. I’m referring to the tolerance within our people, that I was somewhat surprized to encounter.

    First Avoda Zara was tolerated by pointing to and twisting some Shitos Rishonim. Next came Gilui Arayos, and we hear, it’s a free country and how can you vote against it. After that, Shefichas Damim becomes light in our eyes as well. We start hearing lessons and Tziduk Hadin of someone else. We get Lashon Hara and Motze Shem Ra of a murdered person.

    If someone gets arrested and you want to point to that, is one thing. I can’t stop thinking about the agony of his family and his anguish of his last moments. Somehow, frighteningly, it’s just another something to watch while munching popcorn, or better yet, to bounce your next article off.

    I pray for the day of Vahasirosi Lev Ha’even Mikirbeich.

    #1001250
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Pompeii was. America is.

    #1001251
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I have to agree with Halevi. First it was Zmamim. Then it was anti-Zionism, which is not inherently bad, but they made it into its own Avoda Zara. Then it was voting for candidates who were pro-Arayos, but were willing to deliver Kesef. The fighting among brothers and going to the secular courts. And now finally this is where we end up.

    Rabbosai, we need to take this to heart. Check your maassim. This should be a wake-up call to all of us. We should not rely on the government and support their anti-Torah shittos. They certinly will not be there when needed, but the RBSO will if you just trust in him and not political machinations.

    #1001252
    HaKatan
    Participant

    GAW, though you admit that Anti-Zionism “is not inherently bad”, you malign them as “making it into its own Avoda Zara”?

    Not to directly compare (despite that many gedolim have made such a comparison), but would you say the same about Eliyahu HaNavi fighting Baal-worship – that he “made it into its own Avoda Zara”?

    I don’t understand how you could possibly apply that particular term when – how ironic – Zionism is Avoda Zara (and also has plenty of at least one of the other two of the big three aveiros for good measure); which makes Zionism a rather serious matter. And I also don’t know of much anti-Zionist “action” that would remotely make that comparison, “its own Avoda Zara”, seem correct.

    So what exactly is it about those anti-Zionists that prompted you to dub their almost single-handed fight against this Avoda Zara, with the name, of all things, of an “Avoda Zara”?

    #1001253
    gavra_at_work
    Participant
    #1001254
    WIY
    Member

    You can’t compare what these people are doing to the original fight against zionism. These people don’t even know what they are protesting. There are no real zionists left alive so you can’t have an real anti zionists.

    #1001255
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    WIY 🙂

    #1001256
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Imagine if they spent their efforts fighting abusers they way they spend their efforts fighting zionism

    #1001257
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Oh Gosh, Zdad, that has got to be the best line I have ever read in the CR! Way to go!

    #1001258
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I think thats a first, that someone actually agreed with something I said

    #1001259
    golfer
    Participant

    Zdad, someone else too, actually.

    Must admit, doesn’t happen too often.

    And it’s not even a full moon (yet).

    #1001260
    HaKatan
    Participant

    WIY, a cursory glance at the Israeli news here on YWN indicates that Zionist shmad is still very much in force.

    The ever-present goal and indeed raison d’etre of Zionism is shmad, to create a new Jew on the ashes of Judaism, CH”V. This has not changed. In fact, it is now, in some ways, worse because of the current intensification of shmading charedim.

    It’s not as you think that “[t]hese people don’t even know what they are protesting.” Perhaps it is you who doesn’t understand what it is they are (and, perhaps everyone should be) protesting.

    #1001261
    HaKatan
    Participant

    GAW:

    From your above post, it seems you feel that fighting Avoda Zara is indeed the same as worshiping A”Z. I guess that’s part of the confusion that comes to one when one is pocheis al shtei haSiifim. People probably said the same then about Eliyahu HaNavi, too.

    #1001262
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    HaKatan – Only to someone like you. I’m very sorry that you can’t (and I don’t expect you to) understand. Everyone else here does.

    #1001263
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    HaKatan,

    Suppose every Israeli woke up this morning and said, “you know what, HaKatan was right all along. Zionism is avoda zara.” What exactly should their next step be? To surrender to Hamas?

    #1001264
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Avram:

    There are very strong anti-Zionists who live under Israeli rule. One has nothing to do with the other. The Zionist usurpers came and decided to create their abominable State in Eretz Yisrael.

    That is not, in and of itself, a reason to leave Eretz Yisrael. But, at this point, the Zionist shmad is becoming so unbearable that some Yeshivos are indeed contemplating leaving.

    Israel surrendering to Hamas is obviously not either what they should do.

    But there are many theoretical possibilities in between, CH”V, shmad and hisgarus baUmos versus large-scale suicide.

    But what there is to practically do all has nothing to do with Zionism being (just as practically) idolatry.

    #1001265
    HaKatan
    Participant

    GAW:

    And in Eliyahu’s HaNavi’s time, only a small portion of Klal Yisrael did NOT worship the Baal.

    I suppose you know better than Torah giants like, to name a few, from the 1800s through today, Rav Elchonon Wasserman, the Chazon ish, Rav Shach, Rav Aharon Kotler, three generations of Brisker Rabbanim including, lihavdil bein chaim liChaim, Rav Meshulam Dovid Shlit”A.

    This A”Z of Zionism is so offensive that those who worship this A”Z refer to people who fight the A”Z as ovdei avoda zara. What an achievement by the Satan!

    #1001266
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Hakatan, you are, I think, misrepresenting GAW’s view. He did say that anti-Zionism is not an inherently bad thing. That doesn’t sound like something a Zionist would say.

    You might want to rephrase your assessment of the Satan’s achievement, and instead say, “This A”Z of Zionism is so offensive that even those who don’t worship this A”Z refer to people who fight the A”Z as ovdei avoda zara. What an achievement by the Satan!”.

    #1001267
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I suppose you know better than Torah giants like, to name a few, from the 1800s through today, Rav Elchonon Wasserman, the Chazon ish, Rav Shach, Rav Aharon Kotler, three generations of Brisker Rabbanim including, lihavdil bein chaim liChaim, Rav Meshulam Dovid Shlit”A.

    Exactly my point. Even the Chazon Ish met with Ben Gurion to work out needed issues, and did not sacrifice halachic observance of the Klal on the ????? of Zionist hatred. Rav Aharon Kotler used to travel to Israel to get people to vote for Gimmel. Lu Yehiye Eretz Yisroel would be ruled by the king of Jordan, would we not need to work with him?

    I suppose you know better than the Chazon Ish and Rav Aharon?

    #1001268
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    HaKatan,

    There are very strong anti-Zionists who live under Israeli rule.

    But since “Israeli rule” came about due to Zionism, they certainly do not see that situation as desirable. I want to know what your idea is for where we should go from here, if we woke up one morning and Zionist ideology was gone.

    One has nothing to do with the other.

    The fact of Israeli rule has everything to do with Zionism. Zionism brought about the State of Israel.

    I have heard a lot about how Zionism is idolatry, how it’s evil, how it’s shmad, etc. Fine. What I’d like to know is, what is your plan if you could do something about it?

    The Zionist usurpers came and decided to create their abominable State in Eretz Yisrael.

    But it’s done. 65 years ago. Now there’s nearly 6 million Jews living there, and hundreds of millions of Arabs surrounding those Jews who hate them with every fiber of their beings. So where do we go from here?? I’m honestly curious about your ideas. Suppose all 6 million Israelis came around to your way of thinking.

    That is not, in and of itself, a reason to leave Eretz Yisrael.

    That’s sidestepping my question. What do we do about the State of Israel?

    there are many theoretical possibilities in between, CH”V, shmad and hisgarus baUmos versus large-scale suicide.

    Ok! So what are some of these possibilities? You can’t just tear down without building up.

    #1001269
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Suppose every Israeli woke up this morning and said, “you know what, HaKatan was right all along. Zionism is avoda zara.” What exactly should their next step be? To surrender to Hamas?

    Create a European union type Superstate over th entire county. Then split it into 5 federal states:

    1: The Charaidim

    2: The religious Zionists (who would still be there)

    3: The Arabs

    4: The seculars

    5: Yerushalaim (as a jointly ruled city, similar to the Clancy plan).

    Full population swap, taxation, benefits, laws, security, etc. only from the federal state.

    #1001270
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Gavra, did you ever read ????? ????? R’ Reuven explains the difference in approach between the Agudah and Neturai Karta. I think it’s quite relevant to where this discussion has gone.

    #1001271
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DY: No, but I just downloaded it from Hebrewbooks.org and plan on reading it. Any specific pages you think I should concentrate on?

    I’ll also mention that 70 years ago (and certainly earlier), I would have agreed with HaKatan. The Zionists were, like the Bundists & Yiddishists, out to destroy Klal Yisroel. That has not been the case since after the Holocaust (even with the Yaldei Taiman (for a different thread)), and certainly not after Begin and the Charaidim joining the government.

    Thanks for the Maare Makom (and backing me up yesterday).

    #1001272
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Start with:

    ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ?????

    I haven’t finished the sefer yet, but I think I’ve got a pretty good handle on the overall hashkafah.

    When I get a chance I’ll try to get you a more specific reference.

    #1001273
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Daas, I think this is the absolute first time that the (secret) mainstream approach is brought up.

    #1001274
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    HaLeiVi, R’ Reueven’s approach is indeed considered the mainstream “yeshivish” approach.

    Gavra, the basic approach to how to view those “to the right” of us, who completely disassociate themselves, can be found on the bottom of page 17.

    You’ll enjoy the top of the page as well, where you might be tempted to invoke Godwin’s law.

    I think what he writes (page 35) about Neturai Karta (of those days, not today’s loonies who stole the name) applies to Satmar/Eidah today.

    Page 21 is very instructive as to why we believe that Lapid and his chevra do not in any way have the b’nei Torah’s best interest at heart.

    #1001275
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    BSD

    DY:

    First and foremost, thanks for the marre makom. I did take a quick look, and have the following comments.

    If all that the group would do is be “Anti-Zionist”, I would have no issues (although they should be consistant and not accept the government’s health insurance either (which I believe they do take the government insurance, but am not 100% certain). What makes it Avoda Zara is the emphasis that certain groups put on the single issue (as opposed to the Briskers, who don’t) and the other Avairos that come out of it (such as those that I linked above) in the zeal to be Machmir on this one issue. Come to think of it, it is quite similar (at first glance) to the Avoda Zara of “Tikkun Olam” that the reform created.

    I have no Hava Amina that Lapid, etc. wants for our good (R. Lipman is a different issue). I just argue (as I have in the past) that the current concern of the non-religious in Israel is not in us following Hashem (as opposed to 70-80 years ago, when there were real Zionists), but rather in them paying for it. (In h=this way, they are not “Sonaim” per say, but just want to be left alone). If those who want to learn and not be drafted in Israel would agree not to take funding (similar to the Satmar shittah), I still strongly believe that the government would allow the Charidim to learn in peace without being subject to the draft. (Once they stop learning full-time, they would be subject to the draft and once again allowed to get benefits). Details could be worked out via negotiation. This way no one would be thrown in jail for not going to the draft board (like all other Charidim in Israel do), let alone for learning instead of going to the army.

    To make a comparison that was used in the sefer, Yidden were drafted into all of the armies of Europe. Certainly a Jewish oriented army where they try (and mostly do) accomadate the Charaidi Chumrahs, let alone pure Halachah, would be less of an issue.

    And no, the government is NOT mechuyav to support anyone. If you want their money, you have to play by their rules, no matter what they are.

    #1001276
    HaKatan
    Participant

    GAW:

    The choice of words, calling their anti-Zionism an A”Z, is poor and also offensive to the Torah, regardless of what practical solutions there are or are not.

    As to meeting with Ben Gurion, who was and is a Zionist “idol”, the Brisker Rav refused to do so. The Chazon Ish did do so out of necessity. Even the Brisker Rav worked with a Chareidi MK to try to save whatever could be salvaged from the utter disaster of Zionist conquest of Eretz Yisrael.

    Regardless, I believe you are very mistaken that today is functionally any different/better than 70 years ago. Zionist shmad is much worse (every kid forced to go into the IDF, to become “Israeli”, meaning to lose their Yahadus? At least, back then, they left alone the native chareidim who preceded the Zionists in the land); even worse hisgarus baUmos; the same Zionist ideology which is kefirah in kol haTorah kulah (and not “only” the three oaths) according to the Brisker Rav.

    Rav Chaim Brisker said over 100 years ago that the goal of Zionism is shmad and a means to that end is a State. Not the other way around. This has not changed.

    No, the concern is shmad, not money. If it were really all about money then they would treat the Chareidim no worse than they do their Israeli Arab citizens, and would not make the Chareidim serve in the IDF (which is not a “Jewish-oriented army” any more than any other deviance like Jews for J would be, in your view, “Jewish-oriented”).

    More importantly, the Zionists should allow the Chareidim to work with full rights and privileges, as does any Israeli, even without any form of IDF service regardless of how long they learn full-time.

    Then, once they compare the amounts they give Chareidi students to the amount they give to, say, secular college students, then the Zionists can talk about money. It’s not the money.

    The Zionist shmad and discrimination against Chareidim is abhorrent.

    #1001277
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    BSD

    Hakatan: If anything, your story with Brisker Rav proves my point. Those who are anti-zionist but don’t make it an Avoda Zara will talk to those who can get things done when needed. In some cases it may be an MK, others it may need to be the PM. Those who make it into Avoda Zara would rather discuss how to destroy the state (killing many yidden in the process) with Sonei Yisroel than discuss how to help Yidden with someone who isn’t even a Zionist.

    As far as your second point, Rav Chaim’s statement of 100 years ago (IMHO) has no bearing on today. To compare the idf to the Russian army or jews for j is just hyperbole and doesn’t deserve a rebuttal. I think we will have to agree to disagree.

    #1001278
    HaKatan
    Participant

    GAW:

    “…discuss how to destroy the state (killing many yidden in the process) with Sonei Yisroel than discuss how to help Yidden with someone who isn’t even a Zionist.”

    This is not accepted by anyone other than NK (though even by NK it’s still ironic to label that A”Z when they are fighting the greatest A”Z of the era).

    As to your second point, his grandson said Rav Chaim’s words absolutely do have bearing today. In fact, he and others have openly stated that, if the Zionists don’t stop their shmad, that Russia of today would then be preferable to living in E”Y under the Zionists.

    You and many others refuse to open your eyes to the shmad and idolatry that is Zionism and instead view Zionism and the State as essentially a good thing, R”L. Also indisputable, and openly admitted by Zionists both then and now, is that the cultural indoctrination organ of Zionism is the IDF.

    Were this reality to be understood and accepted despite the A”Z of Zionism, it would be quite obvious that, no, it was not hyperbole.

    So, as I wrote, clarified:

    The choice of words, calling “mainstream” anti-Zionism (i.e. the Torah’s view) an A”Z, is poor and also offensive to the Torah…

    #1001279
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I still strongly believe that the government would allow the Charidim to learn in peace without being subject to the draft.

    Then I guess you don’t read the news.

    #1001280
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    It isnt about the Draft,the Army doesnt want them.

    Its about the government programs.The charedim want to continue to get government handouts and most of the average Israelis are struggling themselves.

    The Charedim are using the Army as the excuse not to work

    #1001281
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It isnt about the Draft,the Army doesnt want them.

    Which just shows that the law to draft chareidim is meant to pull them out of the beis medrash, otherwise they would just cut funding.

    #1001282
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The Charedim are using the Army as the excuse not to work

    Except that it’s not true. Chareidim a) want to learn (there’s no draft in the US, and there are b”H plenty of Kollel men learning with hasmada) and b) don’t want to be in a treif environment.

    There’s absolutely nothing in chareidi doctrine which is against work per se.

    #1001283
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Army doesnt want them, they already have enough soldiers and Charedim dont make good soldiers because a good soilder has to listen to his officer no matter what he says and that could include things like Machalel Shabbos (Like standing guard and writing down what you see) or eating non-kosher food (They have Survial courses where they teach you have to live off the land in case you fall behind enemy lines).

    What they ARE saying is if you dont go into the army, you can work, but you wont get the government benefits. The Charedim are using the army draft argument and telling their flock about the Army. The non-chardim are telling their flock its about work.

    #1001284
    Naftush
    Member

    HaKatan, why in your rants against Zionism do you insert expressions in Zionist havara such as Eretz Yisrael (not Yisroel),Eliyahu HaNavi (not HaNovi), Brisker Rabbanim (not Rabbonim) and avoda zara (not zora)? Are you a troll after all, or are you just incontistent?

    #1001285
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Naftush, if you’re accusing Hakatan of being inconsistent in his havara, you would need to show where his havara is different. Also, it’s common to spell the Ashkenazi version if kamatz with an “a”. Also, what’s the connection between spelling kamatz with an “a” and being a troll?

    (FTR, I am inconsistent in my spelling if kamatz as well. I guess I’m a troll.)

    #1001286
    HaKatan
    Participant

    DaasYochid, thank you for your defense on my behalf to this baseless attack.

    Naftush:

    Your “defense” on behalf of the idolatry of Zionism is consistent, speaking of consistency.

    As it happens, my written “havara” is, of course, not Zionist.

    For three reasons, I choose to transliterate a kamatz using “a” rather than “o”, even though the “a” happens to also be used for a patach.

    1 – There are many English words spelled with an “a” that, in many parts of the United States, are pronounced similar to an Ashkenaz kamatz.

    2 – Words in Lashon HaKodesh that contain a cholam are also spelled with the same letter “o”. So “a” and “o” are both already “taken” and, therefore, neither is more suitable to be used for a kamatz than is the other, in this regard.

    3 – I have heard some mispronounce the kamatz in “Yisrael” as in “mow” or “grow”, et al. I believe this error is perpetuated in part due to the choice of spelling “Yisrael” with an “o” rather than an “a”.

    Regarding actual havara, this intentional mispronunciation of a kamatz as a patach by “Religious Zionists” seems to be done out of foolishness of identifying with Zionism which (never mind the A”Z) somehow justifies throwing away your mesorah, of differentiating between kamatz and patach, because a secular Zionist chose that havara for the then-newly-created “Modern Hebrew”?

    So, while the use of “a” rather than “o” for a “kamatz” is relevant to Zionism due to the above, the reason that I use an “a” rather than an “o” for a kamatz is, of course, not to, CH”V, imitate the Israeli secular havara as some inexplicably do in their davening contrary to their mesorah, but rather that I believe it is better to use “a” than to use “o”, as explained above.

    #1001287
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    HaKatan:

    The choice of words, calling “mainstream” anti-Zionism (i.e. the Torah’s view) an A”Z, is poor and also offensive to the Torah…

    I did not do any such thing, as I specifically excluded the Brisker Mehalech (which I believe is your’s as well). What I did include are those who have protests against the Gedolim (such as Rav Shteinman) and those who partner with Muslim businesssmen who want to destroy the Yidden in Eretz Yisroel (Zionist or not). Once again, the reason why I call it “Avoda Zara” is because any Mitzva can become Avoda Zara, when it becomes the Ikar over all other Mizvos, which get pushed out of the way for it.

    The way I see it, this is where we are:

    Brisker – OK

    Neturei Karta – Not OK

    Satmar – depends.

    DY: We’ve had this argument before, I see no need to rehash the sides. You won’t know until you try, and Rav Shteinman has made the Daas Torah decision not to try.

    Naftush: Huh?

    ZD: I don’t believe you are correct. Even without the army, the Charaidim would still maintain their isolation from Israeli society (and Kol Hakavod). They would still not be “employable” in many areas due to the socialist type economy (as others have posted here), and lack of basic education (which is the real Shanda). Allowing for more free enterprise would enable Charaidim who want to open small businesses to do so. The problem with basic education is that the government want them to also teach “history AKA Zionism”. If they would agree on math, basic science & basic English (language) (so that the typical Charaidi boy in Israel has a similar limudei Mitzva education as a typical KJ boy or Riverdale Bochur), that would be a step forward.

    #1001288
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    HaKatan,

    Am I to suppose, since you did not respond, that you do not have an answer for what the Jewish people should do in order to make teshuva now that a state has existed for over 60 years, and the Jewish population has swelled to nearly 6 million? If you cannot say what should be done, then what is the use of your ranting against Zionism, as it won’t effect any change?

    #1001289
    HaKatan
    Participant

    GAW:

    I mostly agree, in general, other than two items:

    Your “Satmar: depends”, as you don’t specify what this depends on.

    And your reference to my and in general the “Brisker mehalech” which is, to my knowledge, the Torah’s sole view: Rav Aharon Kotler himself said that there will never be a disagreement between himself and the Brisker Rav. The Satmar Rav held that Zionism is a gross violation of the gimmel shevuos. Who of their stature argued with them? This is not merely the “Brisker mehalech”; it is the Torah’s.

    I am not aware of anyone of their stature who disagreed and certainly not of anyone whose disagreement with their general stance on Zionism was accepted among the other gedolim.

    #1001290
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Avram in MD:

    Not a good supposition, no. Your premises are faulty throughout.

    What do you mean “the Jewish people should do in order to make teshuva”?

    The Jewish presence in Eretz Yisrael long predates Zionism, and does not require teshuva for living in Eretz Yisrael with no political rule or ambition and with permission of the nations.

    Incidentally, Rav SRH was very against the observant movement Chovevei Tziyon, who were not Zionists, and, chacham adif miNavi, sure enough, “Religious Zionism” and Zionism are both good examples of how correct he was.

    On the other hand, if your question is what should the Zionists do to stop their ill-conceived and shmad-fueled rule of Eretz Yisrael, as in what Teshuva can they do?

    The very least they could do is stop shmading our brethren and they could also renounce Zionism in favor of Judaism, for starters. True, there are other significant issues remaining. But that would be a good start.

    #1001291
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    HaKatan,

    On the other hand, if your question is what should the Zionists do to stop their ill-conceived and shmad-fueled rule of Eretz Yisrael, as in what Teshuva can they do?

    Yes, that is my question, albeit rephrased 🙂

    The very least they could do is stop shmading our brethren and they could also renounce Zionism in favor of Judaism, for starters. True, there are other significant issues remaining. But that would be a good start.

    Ok – now we’re getting somewhere, maybe. You’ve restated my hypothetical situation as your first step: the Zionists have renounced Zionism stopped “shmading” the Hareidim. Now… what happens next? It’s the “significant issues remaining” that I want to know about.

    Perhaps you believe that were the Zionists to make such a teshuva, Moshiach would come right away so we wouldn’t have to deal with the remaining issues. That’s a fair belief, but as we do not know exactly when Moshiach will come, I think it is fair to ask, “what should we do next”?

    Do we disband the governmental services and army of Medinat Yisrael and let the chips fall where they may? That would be disastrous from a utilities, services, and get slaughtered by the Arabs perspective.

    Do we propose to Jordan, the Arab League, or the UN to take over control of Eretz Yisrael, provided they ensure the safety and security of the resident Jews? What if they refuse to agree to that provision? And even if they did, I’m not sure those bodies would be willing or able to enforce such an agreement and stop the ensuing Arab attacks and expulsions against Jews, Hareidim and repentant Zionists alike.

    Do we attempt to alter the existing State institutions to fit halachic requirements as best we can until Moshiach comes to take the throne of Am Yisrael, setting up a council of sages to guide this effort? This scenario seems appealing to me in principle, but what about the three oaths?

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