The Peaceful Dismantlement of the State of “Israel”

@SQUARE_ROOT before Israel was made there were shuls, yeshivos ect.

@somejew

in every q of halacha, you must first establish what the metsiut is, afterwards research the halacha applicable to the established metsiut.

If you see the metsiut only as black and white , you miss out .

On all the shades of grey , which are a part of the metsiut.

Which invalidates any psak halacha you arrive at.

Then you sound like a chicken without a head , like katan for example.

Simple.

—
We are talking here about pikuach nefesh of millions of innocents , which inexplicably does not feature at all in your deliberations, which i find unforgivable.
,
.

@yankel-berel
there is clearly no pikiach nefesh when it comes to breaking the shulosh shevias. see maharal and ramban and others. this is sort of the whole POINT of the shevios.

@somejew

I repeat :

We are talking here about pikuach nefesh of millions of innocents , which inexplicably does not feature at all in your deliberations, which i find unforgivable.

—
The following is the crux of satmar extremism –

in one fell swoop , without adequate halachik deliberation whatsoever, they paskened that THERE IS NO PIKUACH NEFESH IMPERATIVE wherever the Z word is involved.

In one fell swoop they condemned eight million Jews to having no protection under our three thousand year old pikuach nefesh laws.

Babies, children , mothers , fathers , grandfathers , grandmothers.

They did not even give them a hearing , a chance to argue ,

Boom.

In one fell swoop.

No pikuach nefesh. Al pi torah – They can all die.

Their property is for the taking.

No protection.

all because of this magic Z word.

—
That is THE issue where satmar nowadays diverges from the rest of klal yisrael.

They took the aggadic guidance from their first rebbe , which was designed to cut them off from the zionist movement , and adapted it to halacha lema’aseh WITHOUT GOING THROUGH AGE OLD HONORED HALACHIK practice.

With the extremely sad result of megaleh panim batorah shelo kehalacha.

With the stroke of a pen they stripped millions of defenceless innocents from their halachik pikuach nefesh protection .
—

And without even notifying them ….
.
.
.

Talmud, tractate Ketuvot, page 110B:

Our Rabbis taught:

One should always dwell in the land of Israel,
even in a city that is mostly non-Jewish,
and not dwell outside of the land of Israel,
even in a city that is mostly Jewish.

Because anyone who dwells in the Land of Israel
is considered as one who has a G*D,
and anyone who dwells outside the land [of Israel]
is considered as one who has no G*D,
as it is written (Vayikra, chapter 25, verse 38):
“…TO GIVE YOU THE LAND OF CANAAN,
TO BE FOR YOU A G*D.”

But does anyone who does not dwell in the land not have a God?

Rather, it is coming to tell you that anyone who dwells
outside the land is considered as if he is worshiping idolatry.

And so by David it is written [in Tanach ]
(Shmuel Aleph, chapter 26, verse 19):
“…FOR THEY HAVE DRIVEN ME OUT TODAY FROM
BEING GATHERED IN THE INHERITANCE OF HASHEM,
SAYING: ‘GO WORSHIP OTHER GODS.’”

Now who told David to go serve other gods?

Rather, this is telling you that anyone who dwells outside
the Land of Israel is considered as if he is worshiping idolatry.
__________________________________________
PERSONAL COMMENT:

The Talmud, shown above, teaches us that living outside
the Land of Israel is considered to be similar to worshiping idols.

If the State of Israel is “peacefully” dismantled,
then millions of Jews will leave the Land of Israel,
which is considered to be similar to worshiping idolatry,
according to the Talmud in tractate Ketuvot, page 110B.

Therefore, dismantling the State of Israel, even “peacefully”,
will cause millions of Jews to *** SIN ***, by causing them
to leave the Land of Israel, without a Halachically-valid heter.

Even if leaving the Land of Israel were Halachically permitted,
[and it is not] no nation will accept even one-tenth [10%]
of 8 million [8,000,000] Jewish refugees.
There is no place for them to go to.
Which is why the State of Israel was created.

IN CONCLUSION, I therefore suggest that
the anti-Zionists completely abandon their plans
to “peacefully” dismantle the State of Israel.

__________________________________________
PS: “PERFIDY” was written by the Zionist Ben Hecht,
as a hit piece on Israel’s Labor Party,
immediately before an election, headed by Ben Gurion,
and which Kastner was a member of.

someJew, R Soloveitchik was definitely Rabbi Dr, not other way around. I am at a total loss why you are taking such huge spiritual risks to make a cheap point.

@somejew

the whole of vayoel moshe is a compendium of mostly aggadic materiel used to leharchik et ha’adam min haresha’im.

It was not accepted as halaha by the overwhelming majority of gdolei talmidei hahamim in klal yisrael.

It is not meant to be taken literally.

It is mutar al pi hahalaha to exaggerate in order to stop your talmidim from associating with bad elements .
Cf hafets haim hilchot lashon hara.

====

One cannot base halaha on feelings , how righteous they may be.

Nor on hagada.

halaha is based on proven hochachot from gemara rishonim and poskim.

And has to be accepted by klal yisraels poskim and gdolei yisrael.
=====

Al achat kama vekama when the subject is STRIPPING MILLIONS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE FROM THEIR PIKUACH NEFESH PROTECTIONS.

Your approach to pikuach nefesh protection stripping would amount to a bad joke, if it would not be plain dangerous.

Never in the history of klal yisrael had we a mass pikuach nefesh question approached with such flippancy.

.
.
.

@yankel-berel
you’ve clearly never looked at vayoel moshe nor have your heard what gedolim have to say about it.
it is psak halacha from top to bottom, as the author was admant to say in his introduction, as clear from the copius halachik sources that make up the bulk of the sefer, and as is necessarily true as per the pilpul and conclusions the author expresses.

Are there tshuvot from SR to other gdolei yisrael back and forth re this pivotal stripping of p/n protection of millions based only on where they live ?

Like all other weighty she’elot in halacha bemeshech all dorot of weighty rabbinnic decision making ?????

.
.
.

@aheimesher

Normative halachik practice, thousands of years old do not change, even by an unproven [or proven] estimate of 1/4 of klal yisrael.
—

fact is that
there are no haskamot to vayoel moshe

fact is that
there is no written give and take between the mechaber and any of the other gdolei talmidei hahamim of the generation kedarka shel torah , like we find by any major deliberation in torah like by our truly great like r akiva eiger , noda beyehuda etc etc

fact is that
one cannot base halaha on feelings , how righteous they may be.

fact is that
the subject of STRIPPING MILLIONS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE FROM THEIR PIKUACH NEFESH PROTECTIONS is an extremely weighty halachik subject .

fact is that
satmar rav used intimidation tactics when arguing with other talmidei hahamim and gdolei yisrael on this subject.

fact is that
the whole of vayoel moshe is a compendium of mostly aggadic materiel used to leharchik et ha’adam min haresha’im bekamah drachim.

fact is that
It was not accepted as halaha by the overwhelming majority of gdolei talmidei hahamim in klal yisrael.

fact is that
One cannot base halaha on hagada.

fact is that
Avnei Nezer very clearly disagrees with vayoel moshe.

fact is that
steipler very clearly disagrees with vayoel moshe.

fact is that
It is mutar al pi hahalaha to exaggerate in order to stop your talmidim from associating with bad elements .
Cf hafets haim hilchot lashon hara.

fact is that
despite the claims by its author , vayoel moshe was not meant to be taken literally, only leharchik et haadam min harsha’im.

fact is that
satmar shitah , despite its noble origins and intentions, when taken literally , makes a caricature of our holy torah.
.
.
.
.

somejew> i didn’t realize the order matters for such people.

Those whose main occupation is rabanut can simply be called Rabbis unless in some formal situation. Rabbi Dr Twersky is mentioned this way because his writings are about his “Dr” work. So, would a Rabbi who teaches computer science or philosophy.

The way you use it, it sounds like “Dr” is not a good word in your mouth. I am sure when you need medical advice, you make sure to go to someone who has no “Dr”.

I am actually nogea b’davar here, so maybe you can help answer my question: I know some black hat individuals with positions in the community with whom I occasionally have to interact. For some reason, they always address me as “Mr AAQ”. Most other people use first name or “Dr AAQ” (even though I don’t do surgeries). Is this just a style or he means that he is a Rabbi, and I am chopped liver?

@ZSK it was written as halachah l’maaser, and according to you every rov should have his own psak that his community follow

@yaakov-yosef-a
I’m rather offended that you claim I called for actions to dismantle the evil zionist state called Israel. I never pushed such action beyond the same prayer that every kosher jew says 3 times a day in asking for the quick destruction of evil heretics and they should have no hope and their kingdom should be fully destroyed and uproot from the world.

As you correctly said, the Satmar Rebbe like all the other Gedolim who prayed daily and taught us to yearn for the full uprooting of that evil state, it was equally clear that we are not to take practical measures to bring down their evil government.

Taking these practical measures into ones own hands is the core sin of the zionists, and not one any Jew should emulate.

This is also, as I understand from their public interviews and statements, the explicit stance of Neturei Karta, that their actions are meant to promote peace and understanding amongst jews and non-jews to reject fully the heresy of zionism.

I don’t know @ujm’s intent in this post, but I certainly didn’t jump in to support active political action, which would seemingly be against the shalosh shevios.

@aheimisher

@Yaakov Yosef

Three shavu’ot are not mentioned in Rambam’s Yad
Not mentioned in Tur
Not mentioned in Sh’u’Aruch

A clear temi’ah , a clear question.

Posed by the Heiliger Posek HaDor , the Avnei Nezer zatsal .

In his halacha lema’ase sefer Shut Avnei Nezer.

Wherefrom he paskins halacha lema’aseh that the three shavu’ot are not halacha, they are divrei hagada , hashuv in their own right, but not halacha lema’ase.

=====
So we can , relying on avnei nezer hanal
safely state that

fact is that
the whole of vayoel moshe is a compendium of mostly aggadic materiel used to leharchik et ha’adam min haresha’im bekamah drachim.

=====

The thrust of and the intent of the SR writings and activities, were all – to blunt the hashpa’a of Z .

This was a political and social war or rather campaign which consumed a very big part of life.

He marshalled every resource available in this fight.

Even divre drush and hagada were a good resource.
.
.
===

Not speaking ivrit was a tool in this fight.

Proving there is no mitsva of yishuv EY was another tool in this fight.

Blowing up the 3 shavu’ot was another one.

===

It is as clear as day that SR first decided that Z is treif and only afterwards wrote vayoel moshe and al hagueoula ….
.
.

What intimidation tactics, don’t throw accusations at talmidei chachomim without proof
[aheimsher to yb]

===

It is well known that SR merov kana’uto whenever discussing the Z movement , he started screaming .

One cannot have a level headed , proper halachic weighing up discussion under such circumstances. I am not saying that this intimidation was pre planned.
The fact is nevertheless that said intimidation stifled proper level headed discussion of those very weighty issues.

There are proper reliable sources that many gdolei yisrael did not want to discuss those topics with him , for this very reason.

Like the Imrai Emet. Tshebiner Rav ,Belzer Rav R Aron and more.

Even those rabanim who did discuss those topics with him , were clever enough to stay clear from the truly contentious issues .

==

So, did intimidation play a role in the discussions between SR and other rabanim ?

YES

.
.

Brisker Rav zatsal did NOT agree that everything SR wrote in his sefer is halacha

He thought that SR was doing worthwhile things in fighting against the tsunami of Z which was engulfing yehudim all over the world in those yrs.

I heard from many sources , and it is well known that BR advised frum members of knesset how to vote in the plenum. Which SR would never even dream of doing.

Aheimisher – I believe that Judaism should follow the baseline rulings of the Misha, the Bavli/Yerushalmi, Mishne Torah, then whatever historical halachik precedent you want (more of an Ashkenazi approach than Sephardic) – if you even want to do that much. We do not have a national judicial authority with broad consensus and pesak being voted on. We haven’t had such since the Bavli (and Yerushalmi). There is only local authority – meaning a local Beis Din, and even that doesn’t really exist, considering that each Shul considers its Rabbi the “Mara D’asra”, and there usually muiltiple Batei Din unless you live in a small community.

R’ Teitelbaum did not have judicial authority outside his community; he certainly did not have any binding judicial authority, ergo no one needs to listen to what he wrote.

somejewiknow – What a load of bunk, and that is putting it extremely mildly.

If you think NK is promoting peace and understanding, you’re beyond clueless. Might I remind you that NK went to Iran – which has stated repeatedly that Israel should be wiped off the map and it aims to do so, R”L.

Don’t play games, Sonei Yisrael.

@aheimisher

what normative halachik practices, according to that we shouldn’t follow Mishna Brura etc.
[aheimisher to yb]
===

Mishna brura is a step by step text based peirush on Sh A.

whereas VY’M and al hageoula are in depth all encompassing pseudo hlachik sfarim.
No connection between the 2.

—
When Mahari bei rav wanted to mechadesh smicha , he wrote to many gdolei hador.

Whenever there were thorny aguna she’elot , the relevant rabbanim wrote to many gdolei hador.

When there was a gzerat hashchita in Germany pre WW2 , the relevant rabbanim wrote to many gdolei hador.

When the new invention of electricity made its inroads , the relevant rabbanim wrote to many gdolei hador.

And the list can go on and on.

—

But when

the newly created medina created manifold millions pikuach nefesh she’lot , then suddenly, one sefer without any haskamot , without any give and take , without any back and forth correspondence suffices ….

THIS DOES NOT LOOK LIKE NORMATIVE HALACHIK PROCESS . Nor was it.

This seems more like a tool for shaping public orthodox opinion.
.
.

>>>The Brisker Rov, The Chofetz Chaim ect. agreed with this psak

Please try to nominally verify facts before repeating them. Or at least determine if they were even possible. The Brisker Rav who was niftar in 1959 most certainly did not express agreement for V’yoel Moshe that was published in 1961. Let alone the CC who probably barely if at all even know who the Satmar Rebbe was.

The Brisker Rav was opposed to the some of the Satmar haskafa about Zionism. Particularly the confrontational approach they took and their attributing the state of Israel to the Sotton

19812262 said:

“Just keep davening, and the the evil State of Israel will cease to exist.”

NOTE: I had to correct Mr. 19812262’s spelling of simple words.

=========================================

MY RESPONSE:

“The evil State of Israel” is the ONLY country in the world
where the percentage of Jews who intermarry
with non-Jews is less than 50%.

“The evil State of Israel” is the ONLY country in the world
where the number of Jews is actually increasing.

That is the state you call “evil”
That is the state that you want to “cease to exist”.

=========================================

Similarly, he [Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky] concluded, recognition of
Israel’s role in preventing millions of Jews
from losing any connection to the Jewish people
must mitigate our kana’us, even as
our love for our fellow Jews in Eretz Yisrael
must “not blind us to [their] shortcomings.”

SOURCE: Reb Yaakov: The Life and Times of HaGaon
Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky by Yonason Rosenblum,
based on the research of Rabbi Noson Kamenetsky (chapter 11, page 209),
Mesorah Publications, publication dates: February 1993 & January 2004,
ISBN: 0-89906-413-2 (hardcover)
ISBN: 0-89906-415-9 (paperback)

=========================================

Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky said this:

“In this land [Eretz Yisrael] … a carpenter is not merely a laborer,
but one fulfilling the mitzvah of building Eretz Yisrael.”

SOURCE: Reb Yaakov: The Life and Times of HaGaon
Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky by Yonason Rosenblum,
based on the research of Rabbi Noson Kamenetsky (chapter 11, page 210),
Mesorah Publications, publication dates: February 1993 & January 2004,
ISBN: 0-89906-413-2 (hardcover)
ISBN: 0-89906-415-9 (paperback)

=========================================

from the ArtScroll History Series biography
of Rabbi Moshe Sherer, chapter 13, page 321:

“He [Rabbi Moshe Sherer] assured [Prime Minister] Rabin…
that he could always count on Agudath Israel of America
to be strongly supportive of Israel’s security needs.”

=========================================

from from the ArtScroll History Series biography
of Rabbi Moshe Sherer, chapter 15, page 356:

“Rabbi [Moshe] Sherer responded at length.
He pointed out that the opposition to religious umbrella groups
did not preclude Jews joining together on issues as
Israel’s security or combating anti-Semitism.”

=========================================

from from the ArtScroll History Series biography
of Rabbi Moshe Sherer, chapter 22, page 545:

“Rabbi [Moshe] Sherer’s summary of a confidential
June 17, 1970 [CE] meeting with Israel’s
Ambassador to Washington Yitzchak Rabin
reflects his lifelong approach to Israel’s security needs.”

=========================================

from from the ArtScroll History Series biography
of Rabbi Moshe Sherer, chapter 22, page 546:

The offer of political support Rabbi Sherer made
to Yitzchak Rabin was one he would repeat
on many occasions to Israeli leaders.

In a 1981 [CE] letter to Israeli Ambassador Ephraim Efron,
for instance, he described Agudath Israel’s grassroots
constituency as a “reservoir of manpower which is
totally committed to the safety and security of Israel.”

=========================================

from from the ArtScroll History Series biography
of Rabbi Moshe Sherer, chapter 22, page 547:

“Such a committee of investigation would have served
as a ploy to unseat Prime Minister Menachem Begin,
for whom both the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah
of America and that of Eretz Yisrael had great respect.”

PERSONAL COMMENT:
This short quote proves that the Gedolim had
“great respect” for Israel’s Prime Minister: Mr. Menachem Begin,
even though Menachem Begin was the leader of a Secular Zionist state!

=========================================

from from the ArtScroll History Series biography
of Rabbi Moshe Sherer, chapter 22, page 547, footnote 9:

When Rabbi Porush conveyed these sentiments to Rabbi Shach,
the latter responded, “We must pray for the health of
[Prime Minister Menachem] Begin. Please phone [Menachem]
Begin immediately and tell him that I pray for him constantly.”

PERSONAL COMMENT:

This short quote proves that Rabbi Shach ZTL ZYA prayed for
Israel’s Prime Minister: Mr. Menachem Begin, “constantly”,
even though Menachem Begin was the leader of a secular Zionist state!

=========================================

PS: If you doubt that my quotes are accurate,
then I invite you to find a copies of the books that I mentioned,
and turn to the chapter numbers and page numbers that I mentioned.
You will then see with your own eyes that my quotes are 100% accurate.

The books that I quoted can be purchased from:

www (dot) ArtScroll (dot) com
www (dot) ebay (dot) com
www (dot) amazon (dot) com

=========================================

just keep daven and 19812262 will receive some seichel min hashamayim

Not speaking ivrit is a hagada subject.

Three shavu’ot is a hagada subject, as clearly stated by the posek hador the avnei nezer

The only halacha subject discussed is the mitsva of yishuv EY , where SR is at odds with many other gdolei yisrael who he does not even mention.

Vyoel Moshe is much more of a polemical sefer , a forceful argument against the zionists and their collaborators than a halacha sefer.

—-
I could not find any halacha deliberation anywhere, regarding the withdrawal of pikuach nefesh protection of 8 million innocent people.

Nor is there anywhere any written halachik correspondence kedarka shel torah, between the our greatest rabanim , re such a monumental issue.

In the absence of a proper halachik discussion , any approach negating their pikuach nefesh considerations , should be called out for what it really is :

HAFKARAT DAMAM SHEL YISRAEL , no less.
.
.
.

@AAQ (Dr.?) – He’s reversing the order specifically to denigrate Rav Soloveitchik. He can’t help himself.

Yankel,
I hear you, but it is not adadah’s fault that some CR poster is misusing it. I think the shevuos still remind us of potential dangers and that our future is uncertain.

Dreams dreams lots of delusional dreaming. We are not in control let’s give control over to G-d who is the decider of things. And has reasons for everything