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you write :
Age doesn’t make a practical difference. It is forbidden to put one’s self in a position of being shmaded and all three of the gimmel chamuros. They are yehareig viAl Yaavor.
—I personally know many people who served in IDF and were not shmadded at all .
So the original question comes back -:
katan permitted organized self defense in galut to save lives
but he rejected IDF because it is a shmad army
accordingly , what happens to bal tshuva who is a previous member of IDF and is now called to serve
he is not impressionable as he is older now
and knows he can withstand the tests how terrible they may be
q is
should he abstain from enlisting bichlal, even though he is needed for defensive operations only [eg Arrow anti missile unit]
and he knows objectively that there is no replacement for himor should he enlist because of pikuach nefesh
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could you answer this question ?with the reasons .
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think we deserve to get clarity in to the exact positions of the commenters …====
thanks mr katan
would like a full answer please
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.I personally know many people who served in IDF and were not shmadded at all .
—nu mr katan
your answer to the previous post
someone who knows that he will not be shmadded
and its pikuach nefesh
lema’aseh
what should he do ?
plus the reasons ?
waiting for an HONEST and TO THE POINT answer
no sidestepping .
thanks
.We are waiting …
yb:
The Zionist army is shmad. Period. It is expressly designed for that. All the gedolim (including Rav Steinman) said it is, as mentioned. We all know many people who were shmadded, as it happens. Look at the statistics of Israelis. This is silly.HaKatan said:
“The Zionist army is shmad. Period. It is expressly designed for that.”
__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:What you just said is Motzi Shem Ra
AND gross ingratitude
AND Sinat Chinam
AND machloket.The punishment for Motzi Shem Ra is extra-ordinarily severe.
Your punishment for gross ingratitude & Sinat Chinam & machloket,
they will also make you wish that you had never been born.Your teachers will also receive extra-ordinarily severe punishment.
> Zionist army is shmad. Period. It is expressly designed for that
The arguments we hear are always shifting. R Sorotzkin and many others often publicly talk about “full time learners”, then there are internal psakim that say “everyone who is charedi”. If you seriously hold by the thought above: come up with the structure that will work for your community and propose it, and negotiate around it. You have to see the facts: given the public opinion in Israel, you need to either show some good will or be prepared to be outvoted on the issues you care about. People who rejected reality were called: baryonim.
SQUARE_ROOT:
Please consult an Orthodox Rabbi ASAP. Your response is concerning.What I stated is a simple fact and reality, also stated by the gedolim.
Therefore, it is not motzi shem ra, as that would be false.
It is also not lashon haRa, because that applies only to those who are biChlal amisecha, not to the Zionist shmad “State” and its army, of course.
It is also not “gross ingratitude”, as it does not impact in any way gratitude or lack thereof.
It is not sinah, and also not chinam.
It is also not machlokes.Please seek immediate rabbinical counseling to address your lack of understanding in these important Torah matters.
More evidence that the Agudath Israel organization is pro-Israel:
Yeshivah World News said this:
In response to Hamas’ October 7 [2023] atrocities and Israel’s war
against terrorism, Agudath Israel of America is organizing an ongoing
“Virtual Washington Mission” to impress upon the nation’s elected officials
the importance of their continued support for Israel and to solicit their aid
in helping to address the security challenges currently facing American Jews.Agudath Israel’s Washington Office has worked closely with the organization’s
nationwide regional offices to coordinate the virtual meetings with
over 30 senators and congresspersons. And more are being arranged.
Some members expressed their desire to have in-person meetings,
which were convened in their home districts.The agenda of these meetings has included the need for Congress
to back up Israel’s rooting out of Hamas, to condemn and isolate
the terrorist group, the safeguarding the hostages, and to quickly
pass legislation to provide Israel the military aid it urgently needs.In addition, the activists are expressing concern regarding the
dramatic uptick in antisemitic incidents in the U.S., particularly
those experienced by Jewish students on America’s college campuses,
and urged the members to support a substantial increase in federal
security grants that support shuls, schools and other community institutions.The mission’s participants include hundreds of rabbinic and
lay leaders across the country, all meeting with their respective
members of Congress. Participants report that the reaction
of the senators and congresspersons has been overwhelmingly
positive, and receptive to the Jewish community leaders’
perspective and message. The members of Congress stressed
how important it is that they hear from their constituents at this time,
and how every individual who reaches out to a congressmember makes an impact.The meetings have led to tangible results including members
of Congress co-sponsoring legislation, reaching out to University deans,
and in one case, authoring a letter to Secretary Blinken asking him
to arrange a screening of the Israeli video featuring the brutality
of Hamas’ October 7th attacks for members of Congress and the media.“Everyone needs to understand that now is the time to talk to
your elected officials in Washington,” said Rabbi Yossie Charner,
Agudath Israel’s director of congressional affairs.“For every PRO-ISRAEL call a congressional office receives,
we have been told that it gets even more from the other side.
We, as both an organization and as constituents,
must make our voices heard.SOURCE: article titled: “Standing With Israel:
Agudath Israel’s Virtual Washington Mission”
2023 November 13 by The Yeshiva World [News]
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/2239317/standing-with-israel-agudath-israels-virtual-washington-mission.htmlAAQ
Arguments are responding to reality. Obvious .
Reality is shifting . So arguments which are a response , are obviously shifting too.
Simple.
.Again sidestepping by katan .
I will reframe the q .
—eliyahu hanavi promises that this person will not be shmadded .
Is it mutar for this particular person to join or not , and why ?
.the army is the shmad. going to the army is the issur itself, it is the “avoda” of the “avoda zureh”.
So, is your question about if “eliyahu hanavi promises that this person will not be shmadded .” can he still TRY to shmad but he won’t be successful? like he will get in a crash on the way to the army, or the zionist state will disband before his enlistment date?
yankel > Reality is shifting . So arguments which are a response , are obviously shifting too.
Maybe I was not clear. I am not talking about a historical shift. I am saying that there is simultaneous PR that lomdei Torah need to be protected and value of learning, but then not allowing anyone who is member of the community to join. This is using the crown of Torah for something else.
I also may not be familiar with the reality on the ground – what is the formal definition of who is exempt? I understand the system of yeshivos certifying that someone is learning there and possible problem with verifying that. Is everyone having those papers? Or there are people who are not enrolled in the yeshiva but having some other status? based on the neighborhood? family?
aaq:
I am saying that there is simultaneous PR that lomdei Torah need to be protected and value of learning, but then not allowing anyone who is member of the community to join. This is using the crown of Torah for something else.
—that’s what I meant by reality shifting.
in the beginning anyone who was on the vaad hayeshivot list, was deferred yearly.
all others were drafted
this was not enshrined in law
rather as a policy by the minister of defense who had executive jurisdiction over the drafting processthis policy was due to an agreement in 1949 between r ym levin from the aguda and ben g who was israels first pm.
this policy stayed in force for 50 years until it was declared unlawful by the SC in 1999 even though there was no actual law on the books contradicting this arrangement.rav shach as president of vaad hayeshivot for much of this period , was particular to scrap anyone who was not learning full time from the list
maintaining that that such individuals were to be considered rodfim if they continued using the status of ‘torato umnato’ to defer their draft.rodfim in the sense that they could call into question this whole arrangement with the ministry of defense and thereby endanger the real full time lomdei torah
once those individuals were scrapped, they became eligible to be drafted the following year
not only those individuals were scrapped , but even real full time learners who were unmarried and took out a drivers license which was against the then policy of the vaad hayeshivot , they were also scrapped, and subsequently were liable to be drafted .in 2002 the Knesset passed by 51 to 41 , the Tal law, enshrining unlimited yearly deferments for full time learners into law .
this law was invalidated by the SC in 2012 , bringing us to the present situation where the SC and the AG are forcing the ministry of defense to draft every haredi in the name of equality , while ignoring the Arab Israeli and Bedouin youth.as the SC on its own initiative, arrogated more and more power to itself on the expense of the legislature , and as the SC saw that the knesset consistently failed to act , the SC grew bolder and arrogated to itself the power , to cancel any executive decision it deems ‘unreasonable’ , any law it deems ‘unreasonable’ and then slowly extended this even to so called ‘basic laws’.
the SC used its newly acquired extended powers to meddle in army practices and swiftly imposed any emerging ‘woke fad’ into army discipline , making the army even more inhospitable to haredi recruits. Which led to more and more haredi individuals from the non learning cohort to avoid conscription .
In addition , the SC meddling into the draft process led to legal vacuums where the old framework was struck from the books before a new regulation was put into place and took the power away from the vaad hayeshivot which was practically for half a century the ultimate arbiter of who could or could not defer .
the result of this SC meddling was the demise of a 50 year long working arrangement , and the SC invalidation of the Tal law ended the other attempt to democratically codify a new working arrangement , add to this toxic mix the SC’s active imposition of every possible left wing woke position and that’s how we have the polarization and dead end we find ourselves in now.
without fully considering the power of the army and its discipline to enforce a ‘cultural melting pot’ [i.e. forced secularization] this picture is not complete. RZ educators are on record saying that about 30 % of their youth shed themselves from their religion during their service. They claim that this is a price they are willing to pay for their shitah.
for haredim this is totally unconceivable .
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.Speaking about ‘sharing the burden’, what about the burden of raising the next generation of כלל ישראל, or even just maintaining a large enough Jewish majority in Israel? Why isn’t that very real burden, which is MORE necessary for survival than even the IDF, also something that needs to be shared? And if the Chilonim (and some, not all, MO/RZ) don’t want to share the burden, they should at least be more appreciative of those who do serve…
yankel, thanks for putting it all together. I kind of knew all pieces, but not necessarily in the temporary context. It seems that the problem is that nobody wants to work towards a compromise. It appears that part of SC reasoning was that Tal Law did not lead to any meaningful enlistment of charedim, so your opinion that Tal Law specifically lead to increase in anti-draft behaviors is not supported.
To summarize the timeline: in 1940s 400 got exemptions, in 1970s – 2% of draftees were affected by the exemptions and roshei yeshivos were strict about who gets the exemptions. By the 1990s, there are 5 to 20% of all draftees getting exemptions and R Schach _making an _effort_ to clean up the rolls of those who are really learning… So all of that before Tal law became a reality and Tal law did not bring significant draft increase. So, post-Tal SC might have made army environment worse – but it is not the source of draft resistance. Maybe, the difference is that initial resistance was against the wishes of the leadership and current one is seemingly with support.
yankel> for haredim this is totally unconceivable .
You need to “pay the price” for the luxury of living in the modern world. I presume if someone wants to live the ways of R Shimon b Shetach, there are still caves in the world where one can settle. But, apparently, most people prefer having chairs, food from the store, phones without wires, roads without manure. This price can be paid either by working or serving and it can be paid by teaching in schools how to interact with the world, including chilonim and the army – so that 20-y.o. go there without becoming OTD. This is not such a high price to pay, historically. Imagine you live 500 years ago – how much time you’d have to spend getting your food, cooking, walking, earning to have a couple of seforim – this generation is doing ok in terms of time available for learning.
aaq:
This price can be paid either by working or serving and it can be paid by teaching in schools how to interact with the world, including chilonim and the army – so that 20-y.o. go there without becoming OTD …—
fact is that RZ tried for years and still suffer a 30% OTD rate.
this is not a joke , this is extremely serious.
if you would substitute the word OTD , with “serious major sickness” , you would not be so flippant …
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.AAQ – You need to “pay the price” for the luxury of living in the modern world. I presume if someone wants to live the ways of R Shimon b Shetach, there are still caves in the world where one can settle.
Most children in an average Talmud Torah would be able to correct your misquote, in that it was Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai who hid in a cave, and not as a way of life, but to escape the Romans who wanted him dead.
You mix together “working” and “serving in a co-ed Progressive תועבה army”, as if the two are equal and interchangeable. Working can be done in a wide variety of fields, including very low risk (ruchniyus wise) occupations. People who work, some harder than you do, some who earn more than you do, donate much money to support people learning full time so they can afford “chairs, food from the store, and phones without wires”, luxuries enjoyed by most people who aren’t homeless, and some who are… Roads without manure can be enjoyed, free of charge, in most of the developed world except for San Francisco and Gaza. Serving in the IDF involves being משועבד 24/7 (emphasis on the 7…) to hostile Chilonim who have an explicit agenda to remake ‘Chareidi’ soldiers in their image, all blather to the contrary notwithstanding, aside from the very real “gender integration issues” (that no amount of preparation and teaching can protect an 18 year old kid from, unless the 18 year old kid is Yosef HaTzaddik – get real brother.) That isn’t a price for a Jew to pay for anything, possibly including preservation of life, certainly including “phones without wires”, even if you could somehow find a phone with wires these days…
The only “luxury” on the table that could conceivably be “paid for” somehow is living in Eretz Yisroel (with or without chairs and phones and manure etc.) So, if there is no other option, Chareidim could go live in חוץ לארץ like you do… The zchus of living in ארץ ישראל is not דוחה any איסור. The Israeli government will then have to recruit other Jews willing to share the burden of maintaining a Jewish majority… Something that involves a longer and more difficult commitment than serving in the IDF, and that most non-Chareidi Israelis shirk their obligations to…
AAQ – Imagine you live 500 years ago – how much time you’d have to spend getting your food, cooking, walking, earning to have a couple of seforim – this generation is doing ok in terms of time available for learning.
You again miss the point. This isn’t primarily about learning, it’s about not being מחלל שבת (because the sergeant feels like it, not פיקוח נפש). It’s about not sharing sleeping quarters with girls (something RZ soldiers in Gaza complained about to no avail). It’s about many more things, that WON’T be dealt with, because the עברות are the whole point. It’s a feature, not a bug.
YYA > what about the burden of raising the next generation of כלל ישראל, or even just maintaining a large enough Jewish majority in Israel?
This is a good point, or rather two: Torah and population.
On Torah – so, many/some chilonim do not value that, so we can’t make them pay. I think we agree on that. But then, RZ and traditional Jews surely value torah learning, If you unite with them, this will be prob > 70% of Jewish population, How do we achieve this unity? Maybe by extending some good will towards them? not just sending someone to the army, but that too. Also, fnding a way to have classes, maybe respect to those who have different shitot. It is really a hillul Hashem when people professing being so religious are not always finding hen in the eyes of their brothers.
On population – everyone should appreciate it, and I think Medinah is providing reasonable resources assisting in raising children. Again, I think, the support will be higher if they’ll see charedim as their true brothers.
I don’t like the idea, but you can even claim that these “extra” children do not decrease the draft – that will be the same wree these children not born.. To make this legal, have a law that first 3 children are drafted.
yankel > fact is that RZ tried for years and still suffer a 30% OTD rate.
I am not qualified to analyze this number and who is included. I’ve seen some pretty political and extreme people who call themselves RZ. I think they became like that due to ideological education rather than army. And if they go further away in the army, it will be their previous experience and not the army’s fault. I see same in MO community in US. On one hand, a number of day school grads going in a wrong way, but then many of them came from problematic families to begin with.
But practically speaking:
1) charedi community had 80 years in the desert to adapt, courtesy of Israeli taxpayers. This is double of what Hashem thought is necessary to fix a generation of yetzey mitzrayim. If 80 years is not enough, then you have to plan to come back to society when Moschiach comes and establishes a perfect society – but it will be achieved by mitzvos of others.2) continue repeating your (reasonable) conditions of joining the army instead of flat rejection, Look for ways to do something productive. Organize a unit of delivering food, another – giving divrei Torah, another – watching over neighborhoods. Do it on your own, dont wait for army to come knock on your door.
yankel > if you would substitute the word OTD , with “serious major sickness” , you would not be so flippant …
Is it so important to avoid major sicknesses? How many charedim went into medicine to help deal with them?
AAQ:
No, the Zionists need to pay the price for their own endless wars that they wickedly started against the will of the chareidim already living in E”Y when the Zionists first invaded and the chareidim begged the Zionists to stop causing trouble and to go away.The wicked Zionists should allow the chareidim to work, in “modern society”, rather than forcibly impoverish them until they turn 26 years old; at which point, only then, they can start working.
But the Zionists want them in the army for the reason they don’t allow them to work: because they want to convert them from Judaism to Zionism in their shmad army. And that is a non-starter, of course.
AAQ – It was Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai who hid in a cave, not as a way of life, but to escape being killed by the Romans.
“Chairs, food from the store, and phones without wires” are luxuries enjoyed by almost everyone who isn’t homeless, and some who are…
“Roads without manure” are freely available in all of the developed world except for Gaza and San Francisco…
“This price can be paid either by working or serving.” You are mixing two completely different issues. Globally, the vast majority of Chareidim work. (Unless you define ‘Chareidi’ in No-True-Scotsman style as ‘full time learning’.) They also pay most of their limited income to feed, clothe, and be מחנך the next generation of כלל ישראל, and the only reliable guarantee of a Jewish majority in Israel. Chilonim, in the best case scenario, ‘pay their dues’ for three years, and then do what they want for the remainder of their lifetime, which doesn’t necessarily go together with maintaining a Jewish majority in the Land. What about sharing THAT burden, which is so much bigger?
AAQ said – teaching in schools how to interact with the world, including chilonim and the army – so that 20-y.o. go there without becoming OTD.
On what planet can schools teach 18 year old boys how to deal with the ניסיונות they face in the IDF, unless they are Yosef HaTzaddik? Even if the nisyonos were purely intellectual, that is highly dangerous. For גילוי עריות challenges, no amount of preparation can guarantee anything, at any age, certainly not 18 year old singles… If you took spiritual dangers as seriously as physical dangers, (גדול המחטיאו יותר מההורגו), you would never talk that way. And as Yankel Berel, myself, and others have pointed out again and again, the RZ Hesder Yeshivot DO try to prepare their boys, with a rate of failure almost twice as bad as Russian Roulette…
Oh yeah, and there was that guy who went to the Army Chiloni and came out as a Baal Teshuva. Yup, them’s the one…
YYA > On what planet can schools teach 18 year old boys how to deal with the ניסיונות they face in the IDF, unless they are Yosef HaTzaddik?
anecdotal, but my kids invite once-in-a-while friends from yeshivishe towns to visit. Admittedly, they are not the top-level learners in yeshivos and BYs, but their parents are very “frum” and they are visually observant at their town level. You literally need to watch them constantly – they start flirting with village drunks, with no communication skills. I presume they would fall into those proverbial 30%. A normal MO student would not behave like that. They are not prepared to function outside of their community.
And, again – just start constructive dialog: find jobs that work best, find people who would do them best. Maybe send those who are stringest in their middos. Make specific requests where appropriate, but cooperate instead of demanding. It is not normal for Torah community to be looked down by ordinary Jews, including observant. You can’t blame anti-religious forces for that. Something is wrong with the picture when “Torah” Jews are seen like that. Some told me that when R Meir Shapiro was visiting Canada and started crossing the road, a local policeman, without knowing who that person is, immediately stopped traffic to let the Rav come through. This is how it should be.
YYA > certainly not 18 year old singles…
So, make it 19-y.o. married once and request them visiting home every night or shabbos.
What about the proverbial hasid shoteh – would you allow him to save the drowning woman or only if she is dressed appropriately?
katan > No, the Zionists need to pay the price for their own endless wars that they wickedly started against the will of the chareidim already living in E”Y when the Zionists first invaded and the chareidim begged the Zionists to stop causing trouble and to go away.
I suggest you tihnk through the whole operation. Maybe you have a plan, but I am not yet convinced –
go away where? So, not only you have no thoughts about those Jews who listen to their rebbeim and were murdered in Europe, you now suggest that Zionists should have gone – where? Back to Europe? To north/south America where they’d mostly assimilate (if they were to be admitted)? All of that in the name of the small community that existed then. What about all charedim who arrived after Zionists prepared a place for them to come?katan> rather than forcibly impoverish them until they turn 26 years old; at which point, only then, they can start working.
you seem to be referring to an age someone can be registered as a full time learner without being called up. So, you are saying it is Zionist zechus that so many are “learning”?!
YYA> It was Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai who hid in a cave, not as a way of life, but to escape being killed by the Romans.
Well, he got there because he was disparaging the Romans in front of students. And it is about his way of life that Gemorah says that many followed his ways and were not successful. Others either acknowledged the good side of the regime or simply knew how to keep their mouths shut.
> are luxuries enjoyed by almost everyone
I am comparing the current maztav with our historical conditions. You are right psychologically – it is reported that person’s happiness is proportional to what he has comparing with his immediate neighbors. Move to a richer ‘hood – and be less happy. But, why not compare with how Yidden were able to live and learn in other times? If you have more resources than Rashi, why not sit and learn and try to emulate him? Or, as one ger asked – if we have now 1000 times more learners than during Rambam’s time – where are our 1,000 Rambams?
> Globally, the vast majority of Chareidim work. (Unless you define ‘Chareidi’ in No-True-Scotsman style as ‘full time learning’.)
It is worse in Israel, indeed, but similar problems exist elsewhere. We discussed it here. Educational system does not prepare for modern jobs. Best case is starting a 3rd-rated college for a medical technician job – after already married. Many using welfare programs “because they can”. All of that because “in modern times, we are too weak to follow Rambam”. If someone is weak, he is told to exercise, not to lie down and expect to be carried around.
HaKatan – The wicked Erev Rav should allow the Chareidim to work, in “modern society”, rather than forcibly impoverish them until they turn 26 years old; at which point, only then, they can start working.
But the Erev Rav want them in the army for the reason they don’t allow them to work: because they want to convert them from Judaism to (Progressivism) [fill in the flavor of the month] in their secular assimilation army. And that is a non-starter, of course.
Fixed your comment for you. Otherwise 100% on target.
AAQ – yankel > if you would substitute the word OTD , with “serious major sickness” , you would not be so flippant … Is it so important to avoid major sicknesses? How many charedim went into medicine to help deal with them?
Stop being deliberately disingenuous. If OTD was as serious TO YOU as major sickness is serious TO YOU, then you would not be so flippant. Now do you understand?
At any rate, since you asked. In America there are many Chareidi doctors, as you probably know. (Again, unless you define Chareidi as inherently precluding work in any field, i.e. ‘No True Scotsman’.) In Israel there is Ichud Hatzalah, and many Chareidim who volunteer in MDA, as well as working in health related fields, including doctors (albeit fewer than in America) and nurses (probably more than in America).
I am still waiting for someone to respond to my comment about “sharing the burden” of maintaining a Jewish majority is Israel (and the continuity of Klal Yisroel). Why doesn’t that burden need to be shared? Why does it fall so disproportionately on the Chareidim, and why don’t the other Israeli Jews at least have some הכרת הטוב, and shut up about the lighter burden – עגלה הריקה – that they bear?
YYA,
I see in the current generation almost zero doctors. I am not in the midst of a large charedi community, though. I hear from charedi parents who are not able to convince their kids to go to college after yeshiva, because yeshivos convinced them not to. There are some who realize that they need to do something, they struggle to get to 3rd rate college for health professions – dental assistant, ophtalmologist, etc. All of that after being married for a couple of years. One of my friends was trying to encourage his son to start supporting his (son’s) family, the son said – you sent me to all these places where I did not get prepared for work. I am regularly discussing this with my kids to make sure schools don’t make them into vagabonds.I think I already said that a claim of raising the new generation is a good one. But (1) Israel already provides subsidies. You hear protests when they are suddenly reduced (2) unfortunately, it seems that non-charedim do not feel that growing-up charedim are their children too. A T’Ch should be someone who is well-liked by people. (3) not serving adds to that feeling that growing population will not add to the defense of the country (4) same in politics – if growing charedi vote is only to support their own benefits, this does not add to mutual feelings.
AAQ – I see in the current generation almost zero doctors.
There will be enough doctors to go around, Chareidi or otherwise. There will not be a committed next generation of Klal Yisroel, or a Jewish majority in Eretz Yisroel without Chareidim. (Not knocking the stronger end of the RZ spectrum, but they are nowhere near being able to achieve those two absolutely essential goals without the Chareidim too.)
AAQ – So, you graduated from being a בר פלוגתא of contemporary גדולי ישראל to being an בר פלוגתא of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai? At least please resolve for us all of the תיקו and the kashes in all of Shas while you’re at it…
AAQ said – YYA > certainly not 18 year old singles… So, make it 19-y.o. married once and request them visiting home every night or shabbos.
You really know a lot about the Army, (and the Yeshiva world) do you?
AAQ – 1) Israel already provides subsidies. You hear protests when they are suddenly reduced.
Again, you are a little behind the news. Those subsidies were slashed over 20 years ago, mostly by Lapid Sr. שר״י. What remains doesn’t begin to make a dent in the cost of raising children. Most Leftist European countries give out far larger subsidies (to Muslim invaders), and recently East Asian countries with low birth rates tried outdoing even Europe, to little avail.
(2) unfortunately, it seems that non-charedim do not feel that growing-up charedim are their children too.
They don’t feel the Arab children are their children either. That doesn’t do anything to change the demographic issue.
(3) not serving adds to that feeling that growing population will not add to the defense of the country.
Not having a Jewish country do defend sort of makes that חשבון irrelevant. When (not if) there will be a Chareidi majority, they will have to deal with us on our terms, including cleaning up the IDF.
(4) same in politics – if growing charedi vote is only to support their own benefits, this does not add to mutual feelings.
You don’t get the idea. Our ‘benefits’ are the future of כלל ישראל, and especially the future of Israel, whether you, the Chilonim, or the lamppost agree with that or not. There isn’t any alternative or Plan B. Gornisht. Many non-Chareidim begrudgingly admit this simple fact. For a while, the Israeli powers that be toyed with mass immigration of (mostly) Halachic Goyim from the former USSR, but they vote Right wing and have fewer kids than Jewish Israelis. There simply aren’t enough non-Chareidi Jews serious enough to have more kids, and preferably have them here.
YYA > You really know a lot about the Army, (and the Yeshiva world) do you?
I am giving you hyperbolic examples. My point is – propose realistic, even if small, adjustments and niches. If you can deploy a cyber unit or food delivery – that will be a step towards shalom. Saying “no” to everything is not moving. As mentioned, Tal law was supposed to create a step forward, and it did not.
YYA> Those subsidies were slashed over 20 years ago … What remains doesn’t begin to make a dent in the cost of raising children.
That is what I was saying – you are complaining when someone takes away benefits they gave you before. And then you point to others who get more somewhere else.
R Schach warned about it – when, to consternation of chaveri knesset, he advised against taking 100% school subsidies from Begin: there will be a new government at some point and you don’t want to lose your ability to be self-sufficient (well, 50% self-sufficient)> They don’t feel the Arab children are their children either
how is this helpful? You are not pained that groups of Jews do not feel good will towards each other? From your writings, I would suggest every time you point to some other nation and that your community behaves at least as them, stop and re-evaluate whether you live up to Torah standard, or just looking for a justification.> When (not if) there will be a Chareidi majority, they will have to deal with us on our terms, including cleaning up the IDF.
So, I suggest joining and influencing IDF now to prepare for your children being there.> Our ‘benefits’ are the future of כלל ישראל, and especially the future of Israel,
So, take responsibility and participate in the country’s life as partners and not as renters who demand everything has to be to their standard before you come in.But I see the long-term “plan” now – leadership asserts that members of the community will change to other groups if they were to be exposed to other views. So, let’s grow community until we become the majority and then we can participate in the society given that the other views will die out, and at least,we will have democratic majority to establish rules that we want. This makes sense, but I see a flaw: this greenhouse grown majority will not have abilities to function, as there is no experience for several generations. You can see this now with protesters. Imagine, they’ll be the majority – would they suddenly find chochma and middos to run the country, the army, international politics? We had this with Jews becoming free in, say, interwar Poland – there was a lof of heat, but these were all losing battles.
AAQ – That is what I was saying – you are complaining when someone takes away benefits they gave you before. And then you point to others who get more somewhere else.
I wasn’t. At all. My whole point is that whoever is having kids in Israel and raising them is not doing so because of government subsidies, so the government is left with no leverage left there, and little credit.
AAQ – You are not pained that groups of Jews do not feel good will towards each other?
I absolutely am. Have said so many times. It just isn’t relevant at all to the demographic reality.
AAQ – So, I suggest joining and influencing IDF now to prepare for your children being there.
You don’t get it. We want a “Chareidi” majority. That doesn’t go together with joining the IDF “now”…
AAQ – So, take responsibility and participate in the country’s life as partners and not as renters who demand everything has to be to their standard before you come in.
The children ARE the country. The Torah is the country’s life. The Chilonim demand Hashem keep them alive and safe in His Palace (פלטין של מלך) without contributing to keeping the Torah. We take responsibility by having Jewish children and raising them to keep the Torah. The Chilonim, sadly, not so much so.
AAQ – But I see the long-term “plan” now.
It isn’t a plan, it’s just the מציאות.
AAQ – Leadership asserts that members of the community will change to other groups if they were to be exposed to other views.
They ARE ALREADY exposed to ‘other views’ far more than you think or we ideally would want, and they don’t change as much as you think they would either. Serving in the IDF is not simply being “exposed to other views”, as has been repeated here ad nauseam…
AAQ – This greenhouse grown majority will not have abilities to function, as there is no experience for several generations.
Again, the reality everyone knows is that the “greenhouse” isn’t as tightly sealed as you think, and Chareidim function just fine in many fields they choose to engage in, when and how they deem appropriate. דרך אגב, in the IDF “officers” in their low twenties teach kids of 18 everything most of them will ever know (unless they sign up for צבא קבע and join elite units) about using weapons and military tactics. It isn’t rocket science (that they learn in רפא״ל or אלביט, and such, where some Chareidim also work…)
AAQ – Imagine, they’ll be the majority – would they suddenly find chochma and middos to run the country, the army, international politics?
Stop klapping al cheit for other people’s imagined aveiros. The Chiloni government officials are just overflowing with Chochma and Middos like a broken toilet…
AAQ – We had this with Jews becoming free in, say, interwar Poland – there was a lof of heat, but these were all losing battles.
Don’t know what in the world you are talking about. Beyond apples and oranges… Jews in Interwar Poland were viciously discriminated against by a boorish and hostile yokel population with a centuries old tradition of antisemitism. Jewish political power, such as it was, was mostly in the hands of Secularists and Socialists, who the yokels saw as Communist agitators (some in fact were). Most importantly, the ejector button in the ברית בין הבתרים operational headquarters in שמים was already flashing red… In ארץ ישראל, the ejector function is ולא תקיא אתכם הארץ בטמאכם אותה. Progressive alphabet soup, kefirah, and other rotten stuff, give Eretz Yisroel a “stomach ache” which sends many of the (few) children of the Lefties and Progs to pursue careers in חוץ לארץ, including the grandchildren of BG himself… יש מנהיג לבירה.
Ujm, as do the others who parrot this naive &/or hypocritical mantra about the “Peaceful” dismantlement of the modern State of Israel fail to understand that there is no such thing as the “Peaceful” dismantling of the Israeli Jewish identity. All the Arab leaders in the past 80 years, beginning with Abdul G. Nasser. President of Egypt down to the leaders of the other Arab countries were constantly promising/threatening to annihilate “The Jews” (not the Zionists) by blood & fire. Or, alternatively, drown them in the Mediterranean sea.
The Neturei Karta, who are paid agents of Iran keep repeating this same, self destructive line. But every other, normal Jewish person should realize the absurd of this statement.
YYA> whoever is having kids in Israel and raising them is not doing so because of government subsidies, so the government is left with no leverage left there, and little credit.
I have $100 and you give me another $10. I still owe you $10 and gratitude.
> You don’t get it. We want a “Chareidi” majority.
Not sure you said ot right, but this attitude turns off all of us who are observant but do not choose to follow your leaders.
> The Chiloni government officials are just overflowing with Chochma and Middos like a broken toilet…
Someone runs the financial system and runs airplanes and makes those pagers explode. All of that requires chochma and judgment.
And multitudes of people working together and having advanced education in their fields.
Some of that requires decades of preparation. If you plan for the charedi army in, say, 30 years, you need to send enough high school
students to study physics right now.When UJM started this discussion for
“The Peaceful Dismantlement of the State of Israel”,
he did NOT warn us that he considers the State of Israel to be
“The Fourth Reich”:http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-fourth-reich-of-israel
He is therefore guilty of fraud by omission
(in addition to being the biggest speaker of Motzi Shem Ra
that I have ever encountered in my entire life,
and also being a super-massive mosair and rodaif).AAQ – I have $100 and you give me another $10. I still owe you $10 and gratitude.
Actually, the correct equation is more like – you take $100, and give me back $10 (or less). Still something if you legally take $100 from everyone equally, and give me a special rebate, however the Israeli government gives out subsidies for all kinds of things you never hear any noise about. There is a Ministry of Sports and Culture that subsidizes soccer games (on Shabbos of course, my tax shekels at work רחמנא ליצלן) and the Philharmonic Orchestra, among other causes. Why entertainment venues that sell tickets need cash handouts altogether is something you never hears anyone yelling about. IIRC, its budget is about 10X more than all government support of Yeshivos and Kollelim put together, and more than triple the entire Misrad Hadatot budget (some of which goes to support churches, again רחמנא ליצלן). Personally, I never took a shekel from the “Datot” as a matter of principle.
AAQ – this attitude turns off all of us who are observant but do not choose to follow your leaders.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel
Please read this article thoroughly, then please share with me what alternative plan you have for maintaining a Jewish majority of any kind in Israel, and how to motivate anyone to implement your plan, that doesn’t involve “choosing to follow (Chareidi) leaders”. I have been waiting for over a week. Got a few בזיונות from Gadolhadofi, one התחמקות from ZSK, but no serious, coherent answers.
AAQ – If you plan for the charedi army in, say, 30 years, you need to send enough high school students to study physics right now.
Considering that since the beginning of the war in Gaza about a sixth of the soldiers killed were due to ‘friendly fire’ and accidents, maybe you can offer some suggestions to the IDF on how to train their soldiers better RIGHT NOW, instead of worrying about how the Chareidim will do so in the future. Perhaps they can put more emphasis on safety training, and less on progressive ideology, more emphasis on recognizing physical reality when choosing in which roles to place new recruits, and less on “gender integration”. The Torah also teaches us that protecting our soldiers safety is more important than protecting “innocent” Gazans… 18 year old kids didn’t have “decades” to prepare for anything. Tech infrastructure, R&D know-how, Iron Dome, nukes, etc., that were built over decades, aren’t going to disappear and require rebuilding from scratch. Be that as it may, without Chareidim, Israel would soon enough become the fourth Moslem majority nuclear power, after Pakistan, France, and the UK…
YYA> Ministry of Sports and Culture
Presuming that non-charedim are mostly the earners, we had to admit that they can subsidize whatever entertainment they prefer.
re: demographics.
It is an interesting topic. It seems that charedim have almost 7 kids, non-charedi dattim 4+, masorti 3, chilonim 2.1. All except chilonim above Arab birthrate and pretty high by Western standards. So, it is easy to see a religious Israeli government with all pro-religious group together in the near future.So, that will be the turning point in Israeli politics: hopefully, charedim will come out of self-imposed midbar and join universities and the army. Or they may be so much overtaken by the “temporary” ideology of protection that they’ll continue demanding the right nusach in the army shuls. It will take strong leadership to declare the end of the curfew and to make the move towards normal life.
> maybe you can offer some suggestions to the IDF on how to train their soldiers better
It seems to be an unfortunate fact that all armies lose readiness during peace times, spending their resources on nonsense. You can see how tech is developing during each war, including very recent ones – suddenly, when confronted with reality, things start changing. But while every avoidable death is a tragedy, I think Israeli army is performing about as expected if not higher on the ground in this difficult war.
Also, there is a difference between army and high-tech: army requires short-term training of a large number of recruits. This was done on large scale many times. US did not have an army to speak of when entering either WW1 and WW2. Modern high-tech (iron dome and such) are not just static hardware that can be inherited from the secular state. It requires a lot of efforts of different technology and military experts to keep it working right in the face of changes. You might be able to keep the nukes, but air defence and offence will not come without trained experts and culture.
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