The Peaceful Dismantlement of the State of “Israel”

somejew has not understood my position here and seems like unable to be mechalek bein dvarim.

he ‘uses’ the multiple historical kol korei’s against Z to buttress his point.

he misses the point totally.

The issue at hand is one and one only –
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DO WE DISREGARD P/N OF MILLIONS HERE AND NOW ? YES OR NO ?

One can answer either way.

But to use v’ym to answer yes is a clear distortion of the halachik decision making process.

somejew [and nowadays satmar’s] position is yes.

He disregards the halachik imperative of mass p/n .

Any polemics against Z , justified as they may be , is not a HALACHIK reason to disregard the acute mass p/n situation right in front of us.

Including the entirety of v’ym .
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As simple as can be.
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@some jew
…..Beyond those two points of contention, there has been ZERO legitimate disagreement with the psak of Vayoel Moshe ….

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Again some jew ignores the clear question of the heiliger posek hador the avnei nezer who clearly asks why rambam in yad , the tur and sh’a all three omit the 3 shavu’ot.

and therefore stays with the clear psak that 3 shavu’ot are not lehalacha.

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somejew to yb:

you [yb] wrote:

I did take issue with the crooked and narrowminded statement that vay’m is the sole accepted halacha opinion , since supposedly no one else took issue with its content.
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I am glad you are finally honest enough to recognize that Vayoel Moshe, as it’s author – one of the most prominent poskim of his generation – was admanat about both in his introduction Vayoel Moshe as well as multiple times through the sefer, is indeed written as a halachik sefer to paskin lemassa and that it’s length is “k’derech haTorah” like all major poskim before and after him that “show their work” and explain their reasoning and context for their psak.
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Reading comprehension , anyone ?

I will reiterate once more. SR claims this to be plain halacha. For sure.
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A] lema’seh , in fact, clear as day that this is a polemical work designed to be marchik et ha’adam from the ideas of Z.

One who speaks ivrit is not over an issur for every word . He would not get malkut even leman d’amar lav she’ein bo ma’aseh lokin alav.

Neither would he get makat mardut.

Totally ludicrous.

B] Someone who is mishtatef in the elections in EY is not over the 3 averot hamurot of retsicha ni’uf and avoda zara [as claimed in the sefer vy’m]

No one would ever take such a person as a mechutan for his own son . For sure not the second rebbi from satamar …..

And the list goes on and on .

All those terrible leshonot are covered by a pseudo cloak of halacha , in order to lend extra force to desperately needed argument against the evils of Z .

I’ll say it again – it is mutar to exaggerate in order to stop one ‘s talmidim from being influenced from malign actors.

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somejew is claiming that there is no p/n protections of the am hayoshev betsion.

al pi halacha.
supposedly as determined by SR
supposedly accepted by all other rabanim

I will repeat my reaction to this absolute nonsense .

“There was never any normative halachik process applied to these subjects.” !!!!!!!

All somejew has , are a collection of kol korei’s about the evils of Z , plus a majority agada sefer called vayoel moshe

WHICH DO NOT ADDRESS THIS ISSUE !!!

My position is crystal clear.
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Are people forgetting something about militarism? All the guns would still exist! There are still plenty of Jews with guns, and another state would be formed. Would it be Jewish, not Jewish? Who knows? But for some reason, only a small number of Anti-Tzioni Yehudim are obsessed with this idea. Also, the chaos in Israeli society would lead to so many problems.

@yankel-berel

as I said above:
If my answer is not simple enough or you want to get into it more, I would request that you start a new CR thread and tr to formulate a full meaningful question that at at least tries to understand the above foundation of the Maharal that considers what you understand the answer(s) presented might be. With that, I and others can have more clarity on what you are missing or where your criticism might be well directed.

You seem to be well meaning enough to want to at list hear a Torah answer. I am willing to write, iy”H, a source and specific response to your questions IF you can please compose a clear and focused well-defined question. The more you and I can focus on specific points, the more likely we can actually learn something instead of getting emotional and distracted into other adjacent parts of this large sugya.

If you can take it a step at and time and try to take responsibility to keep the conversation on track, I would enjoy the conversation. (i wish there was a better platform for structured conversation, but I am afraid to suggest anything here).

So, if you also want, please initiate a new topic.

@somejew

I cannot open new threads.

Whatever I write is not emotional. It is very clear and very simple.

A] My point is as follows – the words heresy and heretic are used oftentimes , but do not always mean the same thing.

I will list some examples of usage of this word and hope anyone will understand what I mean.

The first usage of the word heresy pertains in an [for lack of better word] hagadic way.

For examle Someone who gets angry is reckoned as if he worships avoda zara .

Similar statements are mentioned about s’ one who is haughty .

Or even s’one who invests in his own material success and attributes his success to himself [kochi ve’otsem yadi asu li et hachayil hazeh]

Or anyone who happened to do any avera. Rav chskel levenstein attributed this to a lack of emuna i.e. a heresy.

Those are aggadic ‘heresies’.
Said behaviour and attitudes are frowned upon , but those people are kasher to be edim and yenam is not nesech etc .

In other words, their problem has heresy connections, but is not halachik heresy.

Yankel Berel – WRT your distinction between ‘Halachic’ heresy vs. ‘Aggadic’ heresy.

I agree with you in principle that in order for heresy to trigger Halachic consequences in a Beis Din Shel Matah there must be a crossing of some sort of threshold that can be measured and assessed by human judgement, just like anything else subject to דין של מטה. That doesn’t mean that a person who has krum hashkafos in Hashem’s eyes will not be subject to דין של מעלה, potentially even to the point of losing Olam Haba ח״ו. In other words, the fact that something may be a דבר המסור ללב, doesn’t necessarily make it less WRONG, just not ENFORCEABLE. The last perek of Sanhedrin discusses various attitudes that brand one as an אפיקורוס, including ׳מאי אהני לן רבנן׳, something that shows up in the comments section on this web site almost every day… If one uses the cop-out of calling ‘Aggadita’, then THERE IS NO HALACHIC DEFINITION OF אפיקורוס ANYWHERE ELSE IN ש״ס. This is עד כדי כך, that there are people out there who claim openly as if Judaism doesn’t have anything to say about ‘belief’, only ‘actions’ ח״ו, which I assume you agree is itself clearly אפיקורסות (even to the point of יין נסך etc.) בקיצור, if one ח״ו writes off אגדתא as not binding להלכה, then the Gemara doesn’t tell us ANYTHING binding להלכה about what to believe, which is absurd. As it is, the רמב״ם derived most of the 13 Ikkarim from that Gemara, and codifies them in his introduction to that פרק. He also codified הלכות יסודי התורה and הלכות דיעות based almost entirely on Aggadita. So, whether anyone likes it or not, Aggadita CAN AND MUST in fact also be binding למעשה. The question then becomes – תכלית למעשה how do we know what, when, and to what extent? Here there is much gray area and דברים המסורים ללב, and it is specifically in this area that דעת תורה becomes essential. HOWEVER – seeing as we don’t have a recognized Sanhedrin for כלל ישראל, no particular group can impose its שיטות in דברים המסורים ללב on any other group, except to the extent that all normative Orthodox Jewish traditions agree. That doesn’t mean it isn’t a big deal what you believe, it is a HUGE deal, because it permeates all aspects of our relationship with Hakadosh Baruch Hu, which is the Tachlis of life itself.

Regarding agadta, Rambam says definitely that some is very real, and some very symbolic, so maybe there is no one rule here.

yankel berel> Anyone honest , has to agree with this observation, notwithstanding his righteous anger at the real destruction Z has wrought upon religion .

I think there are social reasons here. B’H, most of those movements and threats you listed have disappeared or are not a big threat for us right now. So, who can work up energy to protest communists of yesteryear just because they put to prison your great-grandfather. Zionism, l’havdil, is present at least in RZ form, if not much in the original, and represents a threat if not to the Torah itself but to the guidelines charedi community lives in. So, more – and higher – gedorim are built up in order to “protect” the masses. See another recent threat where OP is wondering how come he is favorably looking at Israeli achievements while it is, supposedly, coming from sitra ahera. I don’t think this is sustainable in a long term. Charedim need to find a way to accept that there is value of what other Jews are doing. It should be easier in Israel than in US as the surrounding society is Jewish.

It’s hard to disagree

Yankel Berel – I didn’t disagree with your basic line of argument on the למעשה level, my intention was just to point out that it is possible to be very krum, and maybe even a bona-fide אפיקורוס, without technically crossing any Halachic lines (of the type that would make someone פסול לעדות יין נסך etc.) Also, that most aspects of Emuna in general fall under the category of חובות הלבבות which only Hashem can judge. So there is what to think about there and be careful (on all sides of the fence). I agree that a person can be a fine Ehrilcher Yid who also happens to believe in building settlements down the road from Shechem, and that doesn’t make him an אפיקורוס, probably not even according to the Satmar Rebbe. The type of Zionism that ‘somejew’ and others are thinking of pretty much no longer exists. I also posted here more than once that it is possible to be a Satmar Chossid with 100% impeccable anti-Zionist credentials, and still help build Jewish life in Eretz Yisroel. (Something many such people actually do.) Someone who starts a conversation among Yidden by asking for suggestions on what would be the best way to do something that בלי שום ספק would jeopardize millions of Jewish lives is not Satmar, he’s stam a troll or a ‘pyromaniac’. If a Goy would write the same thing he would clearly be an antisemite.

@yaakov yosef

yya:

Someone who starts a conversation among Yidden by asking for suggestions on what would be the best way to do something that בלי שום ספק would jeopardize millions of Jewish lives is not Satmar, he’s stam a troll or a ‘pyromaniac’. If a Goy would write the same thing he would clearly be an antisemite.

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Agree.

But , you write ” ……. is not satmar ”

I have to take issue here.

Fact is that the then -Senate Majority Leader , Sen Shumer [D/NY] in his Senate speech ,defending his vote for holding back from the IDF , certain essential US weaponry ,

quoted satmar ideology and constituents as backing.

This went past without any correction from satmar –

meaning that official satmar was happy that their name and their shita kdosha be used to withhold essential weapons to defend innocent yehudim in EY …

Here we have proof that ‘official satmar’

would definitely jeopardize millions of Jewish lives ….

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Yankel Berel – I am not in the business of judging other jews , not whether they are destined for olam haba , nor on anything else.

I didn’t think you were, and I agreed with your conclusions on the למעשה level. My only point was just to clarify that krum hashkafa can in fact be a big deal, even without qualifying as ‘halachic heresy’. But אין הכי נמי, it isn’t our business to judge that for others, only for ourselves.

I only attempted to isolate the so called krumkeit of Z . and thereby arrive at a correct valuation of the extent of that krumkeit.

I got that part. To that I responded that contemporary ‘Zionists’, who are almost all of the Religious Zionist sort, encompass a wide range of people. Some of them are very krum, and many maybe not at all. Today’s Israeli ‘kofrim’, who are really גלאט תינוק שנשבה with all the hiddurim, are mostly ‘Progressives’ who are opposed to Zionism. Go try to explain that to some of the chevra who post here…

This went past without any correction from satmar

I suspect that the Divrei Yoel would not be pleased with that מהלך. He is on record, in internal Satmar sources, as having said that the lomdus of the Shalosh Shevuos is not for Goyim, and a Goy who claims to be opposed to ‘Zionism’ is really opposed to Jews… Chuck Schumer and his shtusim notwithstanding, I don’t think anyone from Satmar called Khamenei ימ״ש to tell him not to bomb their mosdos, and I don’t think any of them are saying Tehillim for the success of the Iranians רמחנא ליצלן. (Except for the 20-30 psychopaths who don’t answer to any Rebbe, Satmar or otherwise, and who Baruch Hashem we haven’t heard from in the past few days… Maybe they went to daven by the Mosque of Karbala or the Kever of Haman or someplace else in Iran.)

LerntminTayrah> . Is the UN protectorate funding hundreds of thousands of chareidim in yeshivos and kolellim?

A good thought experiment. Under Turks, Old Yishuv consisted only of people who were ready to live in poor conditions supported by Yidden from other countries. So, the community would naturally reduce to the true number of tzadikim we actually have.

hello ?

Both of them , I would suspect are closer and therefore are more knowledgable about the real shita of the SR .

I don’t think for a second that any of the Satmar Rebbes would be in favor of Yidden of any type being killed רחמנא ליצלן, so there must be a different pshat both in the שיטה, and in the episode you mentioned. At any rate, now is not the time for debates and criticism of Yidden.

The sin of the Zionists was taking people away from Torah. If dismantling the state is going to cause hundreds of thousands to stop learning, then dismantling the state is just Anti-Zionist Zionism.