The Peaceful Dismantlement of the State of “Israel”

somejew has not understood my position here and seems like unable to be mechalek bein dvarim.

he ‘uses’ the multiple historical kol korei’s against Z to buttress his point.

he misses the point totally.

The issue at hand is one and one only –
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DO WE DISREGARD P/N OF MILLIONS HERE AND NOW ? YES OR NO ?

One can answer either way.

But to use v’ym to answer yes is a clear distortion of the halachik decision making process.

somejew [and nowadays satmar’s] position is yes.

He disregards the halachik imperative of mass p/n .

Any polemics against Z , justified as they may be , is not a HALACHIK reason to disregard the acute mass p/n situation right in front of us.

Including the entirety of v’ym .
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As simple as can be.
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@some jew
…..Beyond those two points of contention, there has been ZERO legitimate disagreement with the psak of Vayoel Moshe ….

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Again some jew ignores the clear question of the heiliger posek hador the avnei nezer who clearly asks why rambam in yad , the tur and sh’a all three omit the 3 shavu’ot.

and therefore stays with the clear psak that 3 shavu’ot are not lehalacha.

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somejew to yb:

you [yb] wrote:

I did take issue with the crooked and narrowminded statement that vay’m is the sole accepted halacha opinion , since supposedly no one else took issue with its content.
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I am glad you are finally honest enough to recognize that Vayoel Moshe, as it’s author – one of the most prominent poskim of his generation – was admanat about both in his introduction Vayoel Moshe as well as multiple times through the sefer, is indeed written as a halachik sefer to paskin lemassa and that it’s length is “k’derech haTorah” like all major poskim before and after him that “show their work” and explain their reasoning and context for their psak.
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Reading comprehension , anyone ?

I will reiterate once more. SR claims this to be plain halacha. For sure.
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A] lema’seh , in fact, clear as day that this is a polemical work designed to be marchik et ha’adam from the ideas of Z.

One who speaks ivrit is not over an issur for every word . He would not get malkut even leman d’amar lav she’ein bo ma’aseh lokin alav.

Neither would he get makat mardut.

Totally ludicrous.

B] Someone who is mishtatef in the elections in EY is not over the 3 averot hamurot of retsicha ni’uf and avoda zara [as claimed in the sefer vy’m]

No one would ever take such a person as a mechutan for his own son . For sure not the second rebbi from satamar …..

And the list goes on and on .

All those terrible leshonot are covered by a pseudo cloak of halacha , in order to lend extra force to desperately needed argument against the evils of Z .

I’ll say it again – it is mutar to exaggerate in order to stop one ‘s talmidim from being influenced from malign actors.

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somejew is claiming that there is no p/n protections of the am hayoshev betsion.

al pi halacha.
supposedly as determined by SR
supposedly accepted by all other rabanim

I will repeat my reaction to this absolute nonsense .

“There was never any normative halachik process applied to these subjects.” !!!!!!!

All somejew has , are a collection of kol korei’s about the evils of Z , plus a majority agada sefer called vayoel moshe

WHICH DO NOT ADDRESS THIS ISSUE !!!

My position is crystal clear.
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Are people forgetting something about militarism? All the guns would still exist! There are still plenty of Jews with guns, and another state would be formed. Would it be Jewish, not Jewish? Who knows? But for some reason, only a small number of Anti-Tzioni Yehudim are obsessed with this idea. Also, the chaos in Israeli society would lead to so many problems.

@yankel-berel

as I said above:
If my answer is not simple enough or you want to get into it more, I would request that you start a new CR thread and tr to formulate a full meaningful question that at at least tries to understand the above foundation of the Maharal that considers what you understand the answer(s) presented might be. With that, I and others can have more clarity on what you are missing or where your criticism might be well directed.

You seem to be well meaning enough to want to at list hear a Torah answer. I am willing to write, iy”H, a source and specific response to your questions IF you can please compose a clear and focused well-defined question. The more you and I can focus on specific points, the more likely we can actually learn something instead of getting emotional and distracted into other adjacent parts of this large sugya.

If you can take it a step at and time and try to take responsibility to keep the conversation on track, I would enjoy the conversation. (i wish there was a better platform for structured conversation, but I am afraid to suggest anything here).

So, if you also want, please initiate a new topic.

@somejew

I cannot open new threads.

Whatever I write is not emotional. It is very clear and very simple.

A] My point is as follows – the words heresy and heretic are used oftentimes , but do not always mean the same thing.

I will list some examples of usage of this word and hope anyone will understand what I mean.

The first usage of the word heresy pertains in an [for lack of better word] hagadic way.

For examle Someone who gets angry is reckoned as if he worships avoda zara .

Similar statements are mentioned about s’ one who is haughty .

Or even s’one who invests in his own material success and attributes his success to himself [kochi ve’otsem yadi asu li et hachayil hazeh]

Or anyone who happened to do any avera. Rav chskel levenstein attributed this to a lack of emuna i.e. a heresy.

Those are aggadic ‘heresies’.
Said behaviour and attitudes are frowned upon , but those people are kasher to be edim and yenam is not nesech etc .

In other words, their problem has heresy connections, but is not halachik heresy.