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somejew has not understood my position here and seems like unable to be mechalek bein dvarim.
he ‘uses’ the multiple historical kol korei’s against Z to buttress his point.
he misses the point totally.
The issue at hand is one and one only –
.DO WE DISREGARD P/N OF MILLIONS HERE AND NOW ? YES OR NO ?
One can answer either way.
But to use v’ym to answer yes is a clear distortion of the halachik decision making process.
somejew [and nowadays satmar’s] position is yes.
He disregards the halachik imperative of mass p/n .
Any polemics against Z , justified as they may be , is not a HALACHIK reason to disregard the acute mass p/n situation right in front of us.
Including the entirety of v’ym .
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As simple as can be.
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.I don’t understand your question towards me, as I think I have addressed it clearly and the answer is obvious.
The whole foundation of the shalosh shevios, as well explained by the maharal is that we must maintain the gezairas hagalis and are forbidden to directly work against. Part of the gezairas hagalis are the many pogroms and violence, lo alaini, that klal yisroel suffers through. The Maharal says explicitly that even if all the non-Jews got together and told use you MUST go to eretz yisroel, rebuild the Beis Hamikdosh, and reinstate a Torah kingdom, if they did that under real threat of DEATH, chas v’shulem, if we don’t listen to them, we would STILL NOT be allowed to break the shevios and we Jews would be obligated to give up our lives instead of breaking the shevios.
To be clear, the Maharal says the obligation to keep the 3 shevios is more important than pekiach nefesh (as is obviously true for every ‘yharog val tavor’).
If my answer is not simple enough or you want to get into it more, I would request that you start a new CR thread and tr to formulate a full meaningful question that at at least tries to understand the above foundation of the Maharal that considers what you understand the answer(s) presented might be. With that, I and others can have more clarity on what you are missing or where your criticism might be well directed.
@some jew
…..Beyond those two points of contention, there has been ZERO legitimate disagreement with the psak of Vayoel Moshe ….—
Again some jew ignores the clear question of the heiliger posek hador the avnei nezer who clearly asks why rambam in yad , the tur and sh’a all three omit the 3 shavu’ot.and therefore stays with the clear psak that 3 shavu’ot are not lehalacha.
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…those poskim who disagree with the above two issurim of Vayoel Moshe DO NOT disagree with the fundamental principals ……. that we kosher Jews continue to pray three times a day for its state’s peaceful destruction (amen, kain yehi rutzon).
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sheker vechazav
those poskim – the overwhelming majority of talmidei hahamim by the way – pray that all of our errant brothers in charge of the state should have a change of heart and that the power of the erliche yidden within the state should exceed the power of the wicked people , and that all of the inhabitants of the state should merit to live in peace and security until mashiach comes.
ITS A HUTSPAH TO PUT WORDS INTO OTHER PEOPLES MOUTHS AGAINST THEIR WILL.
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.somejew to yb:
you [yb] wrote:
I did take issue with the crooked and narrowminded statement that vay’m is the sole accepted halacha opinion , since supposedly no one else took issue with its content.
—I am glad you are finally honest enough to recognize that Vayoel Moshe, as it’s author – one of the most prominent poskim of his generation – was admanat about both in his introduction Vayoel Moshe as well as multiple times through the sefer, is indeed written as a halachik sefer to paskin lemassa and that it’s length is “k’derech haTorah” like all major poskim before and after him that “show their work” and explain their reasoning and context for their psak.
===============================Reading comprehension , anyone ?
I will reiterate once more. SR claims this to be plain halacha. For sure.
.A] lema’seh , in fact, clear as day that this is a polemical work designed to be marchik et ha’adam from the ideas of Z.
One who speaks ivrit is not over an issur for every word . He would not get malkut even leman d’amar lav she’ein bo ma’aseh lokin alav.
Neither would he get makat mardut.
Totally ludicrous.
B] Someone who is mishtatef in the elections in EY is not over the 3 averot hamurot of retsicha ni’uf and avoda zara [as claimed in the sefer vy’m]
No one would ever take such a person as a mechutan for his own son . For sure not the second rebbi from satamar …..
And the list goes on and on .
All those terrible leshonot are covered by a pseudo cloak of halacha , in order to lend extra force to desperately needed argument against the evils of Z .
I’ll say it again – it is mutar to exaggerate in order to stop one ‘s talmidim from being influenced from malign actors.
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.The overwhelming majority of the content of vy’m is agada
yes . Will repeat it.
The overwhelming majority of the content of vy’m is agada
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check in the index – most of the sources are agada.no give and take with other halachik authorities.
no haskamot.
No serious discussion about stripping p/n protections from entire communities at all !!!
This is not halacha . this is polemics .
And mussar – regarding the danger of apikorsim who use holy symbols and holy language and holy lands to put a holy veneer on poisonous endeavors.
noda byhuda r akiva eiger hatam sofer be’er yitschak avne nezer ahiezer maharsham – learn their tshuvot lehalacha and see the difference.
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.somejew is claiming that there is no p/n protections of the am hayoshev betsion.
al pi halacha.
supposedly as determined by SR
supposedly accepted by all other rabanimI will repeat my reaction to this absolute nonsense .
“There was never any normative halachik process applied to these subjects.” !!!!!!!
All somejew has , are a collection of kol korei’s about the evils of Z , plus a majority agada sefer called vayoel moshe
WHICH DO NOT ADDRESS THIS ISSUE !!!
My position is crystal clear.
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.somejew:
The whole foundation of the shalosh shevios, as well explained by the maharal is that we must maintain the gezairas hagalis and are forbidden to directly work against. Part of the gezairas hagalis are the many pogroms and violence, lo alaini, that klal yisroel suffers through. The Maharal says explicitly that even if all the non-Jews got together and told use you MUST go to eretz yisroel, rebuild the Beis Hamikdosh, and reinstate a Torah kingdom, if they did that under real threat of DEATH, chas v’shulem, if we don’t listen to them, we would STILL NOT be allowed to break the shevios and we Jews would be obligated to give up our lives instead of breaking the shevios.
To be clear, the Maharal says the obligation to keep the 3 shevios is more important than pekiach nefesh (as is obviously true for every ‘yharog val tavor’).
If my answer is not simple enough or you want to get into it more, I would request that you start a new CR thread and tr to formulate a full meaningful question that at at least tries to understand the above foundation of the Maharal that considers what you understand the answer(s) presented might be. With that, I and others can have more clarity on what you a/re missing or where your criticism might be well directed.
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This you want to use to mafkir damam of millions of your brothers and sisters in EY ?Without any give and take with our greatest living rabanim ?
Is this normative halachik practise ?
Millions of piskei hiyuvei mita [r’l] in the course of two minutes of typing , being medameh milta lemilta ON YOUR OWN , based on a supposed statement of maharal on agada without even a source in the footnote ?
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I , in your place , would be ashamed of myself ….
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.Are people forgetting something about militarism? All the guns would still exist! There are still plenty of Jews with guns, and another state would be formed. Would it be Jewish, not Jewish? Who knows? But for some reason, only a small number of Anti-Tzioni Yehudim are obsessed with this idea. Also, the chaos in Israeli society would lead to so many problems.
Yankel Berel seems to study the Halakha. Why won’t other people study it?
as I said above:
If my answer is not simple enough or you want to get into it more, I would request that you start a new CR thread and tr to formulate a full meaningful question that at at least tries to understand the above foundation of the Maharal that considers what you understand the answer(s) presented might be. With that, I and others can have more clarity on what you are missing or where your criticism might be well directed.You seem to be well meaning enough to want to at list hear a Torah answer. I am willing to write, iy”H, a source and specific response to your questions IF you can please compose a clear and focused well-defined question. The more you and I can focus on specific points, the more likely we can actually learn something instead of getting emotional and distracted into other adjacent parts of this large sugya.
If you can take it a step at and time and try to take responsibility to keep the conversation on track, I would enjoy the conversation. (i wish there was a better platform for structured conversation, but I am afraid to suggest anything here).
So, if you also want, please initiate a new topic.
yankel berel> I’ll say it again – it is mutar to exaggerate in order to stop one ‘s talmidim from being influenced from malign actors.
This seems to be an often used device and is, no doubt, often needed. What are parameters for such statements? And if some of it is allowed as haraas hashaah, how do we evaluate a lot of the emergency Torah of the last 100+ years of “emergency” and make sure we do not lose the emes to emergency?
I cannot open new threads.
Whatever I write is not emotional. It is very clear and very simple.
A] My point is as follows – the words heresy and heretic are used oftentimes , but do not always mean the same thing.
I will list some examples of usage of this word and hope anyone will understand what I mean.
The first usage of the word heresy pertains in an [for lack of better word] hagadic way.
For examle Someone who gets angry is reckoned as if he worships avoda zara .
Similar statements are mentioned about s’ one who is haughty .
Or even s’one who invests in his own material success and attributes his success to himself [kochi ve’otsem yadi asu li et hachayil hazeh]
Or anyone who happened to do any avera. Rav chskel levenstein attributed this to a lack of emuna i.e. a heresy.
Those are aggadic ‘heresies’.
Said behaviour and attitudes are frowned upon , but those people are kasher to be edim and yenam is not nesech etc .In other words, their problem has heresy connections, but is not halachik heresy.
B] the second type of heresy is the halachik one which
needs clear parameters and
has clear consequences.For example
Someone who professes belief in “j”or professes belief in pagan g’ds .
or declares himself an atheist
r’l.the consequences are very clear too.
Those halachik heretics forfeited their right to oilam haba.
are passul ledutmarriages and divorces are invalidated if they serve as witnesses.
Even many years later.=======
THE Q TO SOMEJEW ETC. IS THE FOLLOWING –
That makes him into agada heretic or into halacha heretic ???
we will needclear proof on this she’ala .
Yankel Berel – WRT your distinction between ‘Halachic’ heresy vs. ‘Aggadic’ heresy.
I agree with you in principle that in order for heresy to trigger Halachic consequences in a Beis Din Shel Matah there must be a crossing of some sort of threshold that can be measured and assessed by human judgement, just like anything else subject to דין של מטה. That doesn’t mean that a person who has krum hashkafos in Hashem’s eyes will not be subject to דין של מעלה, potentially even to the point of losing Olam Haba ח״ו. In other words, the fact that something may be a דבר המסור ללב, doesn’t necessarily make it less WRONG, just not ENFORCEABLE. The last perek of Sanhedrin discusses various attitudes that brand one as an אפיקורוס, including ׳מאי אהני לן רבנן׳, something that shows up in the comments section on this web site almost every day… If one uses the cop-out of calling ‘Aggadita’, then THERE IS NO HALACHIC DEFINITION OF אפיקורוס ANYWHERE ELSE IN ש״ס. This is עד כדי כך, that there are people out there who claim openly as if Judaism doesn’t have anything to say about ‘belief’, only ‘actions’ ח״ו, which I assume you agree is itself clearly אפיקורסות (even to the point of יין נסך etc.) בקיצור, if one ח״ו writes off אגדתא as not binding להלכה, then the Gemara doesn’t tell us ANYTHING binding להלכה about what to believe, which is absurd. As it is, the רמב״ם derived most of the 13 Ikkarim from that Gemara, and codifies them in his introduction to that פרק. He also codified הלכות יסודי התורה and הלכות דיעות based almost entirely on Aggadita. So, whether anyone likes it or not, Aggadita CAN AND MUST in fact also be binding למעשה. The question then becomes – תכלית למעשה how do we know what, when, and to what extent? Here there is much gray area and דברים המסורים ללב, and it is specifically in this area that דעת תורה becomes essential. HOWEVER – seeing as we don’t have a recognized Sanhedrin for כלל ישראל, no particular group can impose its שיטות in דברים המסורים ללב on any other group, except to the extent that all normative Orthodox Jewish traditions agree. That doesn’t mean it isn’t a big deal what you believe, it is a HUGE deal, because it permeates all aspects of our relationship with Hakadosh Baruch Hu, which is the Tachlis of life itself.
YYA > This is עד כדי כך, that there are people out there who claim openly as if Judaism doesn’t have anything to say about ‘belief’, only ‘actions’ ח״ו, which I assume you agree is itself clearly אפיקורסות
I _believe_ that there is such trend in modern Judaism, probably from Rishonim up. Maybe not so explicit, but def emphasizing action v belief. Some say that this is caused by trying to distance ourselves from our European neighbors who stressed “belief”. So, possibly, some went too far in the other direction. (I do agree with you).
Regarding agadta, Rambam says definitely that some is very real, and some very symbolic, so maybe there is no one rule here.
@yaakov Yosef
As with almost everything else you write, I find it hard to disagree with your most recent post.
However the main point I am making to somejew is :
You cannot equalize between xtianity and zionism IN THE LEVEL OF KFIRA inherent in both of those movements.
Or between communism and zionism for that matter.
Or between atheism , paganism , idol worship on one hand and Zionism on the other.
All those other movements and belief systems are heresies with clear HALACHIC repercussions.
Whereas Z ,even according to those very same rabanim labeling Z as a heresy , has no clear halachik repercussions.
Anyone honest , has to agree with this observation, notwithstanding his righteous anger at the real destruction Z has wrought upon religion .
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Besides I have not yet heard specifically why a fully frum jew , living in our generation, advocating for the continued existence and welfare of the state untill mashiachs arrival ,
could be accused of anything heretical .
Could anyone please pinpoint in what way does the continued existence and welfare of the state contradict the torah ?
If they will – validly – point towards the many anti torah activities the state engages in .
Then the answer should be al pi torah that we advocate for the cessation of those activities.Simple.
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.yankel berel> Anyone honest , has to agree with this observation, notwithstanding his righteous anger at the real destruction Z has wrought upon religion .
I think there are social reasons here. B’H, most of those movements and threats you listed have disappeared or are not a big threat for us right now. So, who can work up energy to protest communists of yesteryear just because they put to prison your great-grandfather. Zionism, l’havdil, is present at least in RZ form, if not much in the original, and represents a threat if not to the Torah itself but to the guidelines charedi community lives in. So, more – and higher – gedorim are built up in order to “protect” the masses. See another recent threat where OP is wondering how come he is favorably looking at Israeli achievements while it is, supposedly, coming from sitra ahera. I don’t think this is sustainable in a long term. Charedim need to find a way to accept that there is value of what other Jews are doing. It should be easier in Israel than in US as the surrounding society is Jewish.
yankel > If they will – validly – point towards the many anti torah activities the state engages in . Then the answer should be al pi torah that we advocate for the cessation of those activities.
This may be a sign of … assimilation. Recent generations are growing up entitled to a lot of things from their parents and society in general. One American sociologist writes that recent sharp reduction in births in US is partly due to the “children” looking at how much their parents were doing for them – and realizing that they are not capable of the same, so they skip on the kids … So, here a cluster of population feels that society somehow “owes” them benefits and they are entitled to disregard their civil obligations because society is “not good enough for them”.
How bad the situation really is? Jews for centuries lived in societies that double-taxed us, limited jobs, murdered us once-in-while – and we continued being observant Jews. And most siddurim have brochos for the kings, czars, and kaisers and their families (by name – czarina, their children). Why suddenly, it is not possible to give a misheberach to a Jewish government and army? Maybe charedim are, in their hearts, biggest zionists after all – they expect that Zionists have to establish a halachik state, provide support to Torah learners (while still given them passports for occasional vacations) – and only then they’ll come out and join other Yidden.
What will happen when Moschach b’ Yosef comes and forms his army? Will he wait until yeshiva bochrim learn to operate the tanks or will he go with “the army we have” and the bochrim will be pleading to be taken in? start training now, if you don’t want to be on the sidelines.
It’s hard to disagree
You raise an interesting and nuanced point. The distinction you’re making between the level of kefira (heresy) in Zionism versus other ideologies like Christianity, communism, or atheism is valid from a halachic perspective
Yankel Berel – I didn’t disagree with your basic line of argument on the למעשה level, my intention was just to point out that it is possible to be very krum, and maybe even a bona-fide אפיקורוס, without technically crossing any Halachic lines (of the type that would make someone פסול לעדות יין נסך etc.) Also, that most aspects of Emuna in general fall under the category of חובות הלבבות which only Hashem can judge. So there is what to think about there and be careful (on all sides of the fence). I agree that a person can be a fine Ehrilcher Yid who also happens to believe in building settlements down the road from Shechem, and that doesn’t make him an אפיקורוס, probably not even according to the Satmar Rebbe. The type of Zionism that ‘somejew’ and others are thinking of pretty much no longer exists. I also posted here more than once that it is possible to be a Satmar Chossid with 100% impeccable anti-Zionist credentials, and still help build Jewish life in Eretz Yisroel. (Something many such people actually do.) Someone who starts a conversation among Yidden by asking for suggestions on what would be the best way to do something that בלי שום ספק would jeopardize millions of Jewish lives is not Satmar, he’s stam a troll or a ‘pyromaniac’. If a Goy would write the same thing he would clearly be an antisemite.
YYA> The type of Zionism that ‘somejew’ and others are thinking of pretty much no longer exists.
Right. For sure this means that we need to look at things as they are now. But as for historical lesson, you can read it both ways – SR was right opposing it. Or R Kook was right that eventually Zionists will be more religious/traditional. Unfortunately, it is hard to learn lessons from history.
@yaakov yosef
yya:
Someone who starts a conversation among Yidden by asking for suggestions on what would be the best way to do something that בלי שום ספק would jeopardize millions of Jewish lives is not Satmar, he’s stam a troll or a ‘pyromaniac’. If a Goy would write the same thing he would clearly be an antisemite.
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Agree.
But , you write ” ……. is not satmar ”
I have to take issue here.
Fact is that the then -Senate Majority Leader , Sen Shumer [D/NY] in his Senate speech ,defending his vote for holding back from the IDF , certain essential US weaponry ,
quoted satmar ideology and constituents as backing.
This went past without any correction from satmar –
meaning that official satmar was happy that their name and their shita kdosha be used to withhold essential weapons to defend innocent yehudim in EY …
Here we have proof that ‘official satmar’
would definitely jeopardize millions of Jewish lives ….
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.I am not in the business of judging other jews , not whether they are destined for olam haba , nor on anything else.
I only attempted to isolate the so called krumkeit of Z . and thereby arrive at a correct valuation of the extent of that krumkeit .
Thats all .
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.Yankel Berel – I am not in the business of judging other jews , not whether they are destined for olam haba , nor on anything else.
I didn’t think you were, and I agreed with your conclusions on the למעשה level. My only point was just to clarify that krum hashkafa can in fact be a big deal, even without qualifying as ‘halachic heresy’. But אין הכי נמי, it isn’t our business to judge that for others, only for ourselves.
I only attempted to isolate the so called krumkeit of Z . and thereby arrive at a correct valuation of the extent of that krumkeit.
I got that part. To that I responded that contemporary ‘Zionists’, who are almost all of the Religious Zionist sort, encompass a wide range of people. Some of them are very krum, and many maybe not at all. Today’s Israeli ‘kofrim’, who are really גלאט תינוק שנשבה with all the hiddurim, are mostly ‘Progressives’ who are opposed to Zionism. Go try to explain that to some of the chevra who post here…
This went past without any correction from satmar
I suspect that the Divrei Yoel would not be pleased with that מהלך. He is on record, in internal Satmar sources, as having said that the lomdus of the Shalosh Shevuos is not for Goyim, and a Goy who claims to be opposed to ‘Zionism’ is really opposed to Jews… Chuck Schumer and his shtusim notwithstanding, I don’t think anyone from Satmar called Khamenei ימ״ש to tell him not to bomb their mosdos, and I don’t think any of them are saying Tehillim for the success of the Iranians רמחנא ליצלן. (Except for the 20-30 psychopaths who don’t answer to any Rebbe, Satmar or otherwise, and who Baruch Hashem we haven’t heard from in the past few days… Maybe they went to daven by the Mosque of Karbala or the Kever of Haman or someplace else in Iran.)
Let’s say UJM gets his wish and the state of Israel is dismantled and replaced with a UN protectorate. And let’s say the Yidden of Eretz Yisroel are protected somehow from being slaughtered. Is the UN protectorate funding hundreds of thousands of chareidim in yeshivos and kolellim? Or do hundreds of thousands of frum yidden who worship Hashem instead of the medina starve to death?
LerntminTayrah> . Is the UN protectorate funding hundreds of thousands of chareidim in yeshivos and kolellim?
A good thought experiment. Under Turks, Old Yishuv consisted only of people who were ready to live in poor conditions supported by Yidden from other countries. So, the community would naturally reduce to the true number of tzadikim we actually have.
yakov yosef a :
I suspect that the Divrei Yoel would not be pleased with that מהלך. He is on record, in internal Satmar sources, as having said that the lomdus of the Shalosh Shevuos is not for Goyim, and a Goy who claims to be opposed to ‘Zionism’ is really opposed to Jews…
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I hear that this is your private opinion.
On the other hand both nephews and mamshichim of Divrei Yoel actually kept quiet.
Both of of them , I would suspect are closer and therefore are more knowledgable about the real shita of the SR .
If it’s a tossup between you and them about what D’Y actually held , with all due respect , I would take their opinion over yours .
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.hello ?
“naturallyu reduce” being code words for many starving and many going otd due to lack of money, and a lot of learning stopped. Who is taking achrayus for all the bittul Torah? Is dismantling the state worth all the bittul Torah?
Both of them , I would suspect are closer and therefore are more knowledgable about the real shita of the SR .
I don’t think for a second that any of the Satmar Rebbes would be in favor of Yidden of any type being killed רחמנא ליצלן, so there must be a different pshat both in the שיטה, and in the episode you mentioned. At any rate, now is not the time for debates and criticism of Yidden.
> “naturallyu reduce” being code words for many starving and many going otd due to lack of money, and a lot of learning stopped. Who is taking achrayus for all the bittul Torah? I
This is not what I meant. I am saying that now the whole community claims that they are dedicated to learning despite everything. When people make claims, Hashem often sends challenges. So, presumably those who are not ready to learn in poverty and without rights, will move to other places or occupation. They don’t have to go OTD, they can move to England or Russia or Egypt, and work and learn there. I understand that any mitzva and learning are precious, but losing learning of those who claimed to be selfless but survived on someone else’s money. Sheker is not emes.
The sin of the Zionists was taking people away from Torah. If dismantling the state is going to cause hundreds of thousands to stop learning, then dismantling the state is just Anti-Zionist Zionism.
Lernt > sin of the Zionists was taking people away from Torah. If dismantling the state is going to cause hundreds of thousands to stop learning, then dismantling the state is just Anti-Zionist Zionism.
This is an interesting conclusion, indeed! So, despite early anti-religious Z arguably were “taking people away”, the current matzav is that, Hashem somehow turned it around and the Zionists support so much of learning and other mitzvos also … is this “too big too fail” like with banks!?
PS As to “taking people away”, we talked about it earlier. I doubt that anti-rel Zs were _the_ major factor in people leaving Torah: if someone wants to be not religious per se, there were more comfortable pathways at the time – marry a goya, convert, go to Amerika, get admitted to university, etc. I think anti-rel Zs mostly recruited among those who were already not religious and they were more preferable than complete assimilation. So, these people benefited from going to EY instead of US or USSR.
The sin of the Zionists was taking people away from Torah
That might be one of the many sins that zionism did, but that isn’t the defining feature of zionism. “Religious Zionism” is also kefira and perhaps worse than “secular Zionism”.
hello!!!!!
Somejew, so you have the broad shoulders to stop hundreds of thousands of yidden learning in kollel, many of whom curse out the tziyoinistim with the same fervor that you do, from learning?
That takes a gadol hador. Klal gadol- no actual gedolei hador post in YWN. That obviously includes me. I’m sure my rabbeim do not want me posting here. Nebach I’m an avaryan legabei ywn cr.@lerntmintayrah
I have no intention of stopping anyone from learning Torah. I also have no plans to dismantle the zionist state. I just pray daily for its destruction as per the common nusach of shmoneh esrai.We pray for Moshiach to come and the replacement of the current state with a monarchy. We certainly don’t pray for destruction. Let Hashem run the world. Let Hashem choose what He wants done with all the nice roads and airports built by the tziyoinistim. And let Hashem choose what to do with hundreds of thousand of yidden learning in kollel. Thinking we know better than Hashem is heresy.
lernt > We pray for Moshiach to come and the replacement of the current state with a monarchy.
Are we 100% sure that Moschiach will run a monarchy? maybe a democracy with all Yidden voting for Torah-true laws? Or a constitutional democracy with Moschiach presiding and elected ministers running the government day-to-day? Rambam says there will be no difference except that Yidden will not be governed by others.
> Thinking we know better than Hashem is heresy.
ExactlyI think we should ask the gedolim the Antizionists quoted during the wzo hock- Rav Dov Landau Shlita, Rav Aharon Feldman shlita, et al, what they think of stopping hundreds of thousands of people from learning.
Rav Shach zt”l was certainly no Zionist, and the antizionists here have a slew of quotes from him. Yet, when Menachem Begin asked for a bracha of success for the Osirak reactor destruction, Rav Shach zt”l gave it. And yblct Rav Moshe Shternbuch shlita, head of the antizionist eida hachareidis, talks about Hashem saving the toshvei eretz yisroel from Iran. Clearly they don’t believe Israel needs to be destroyed- merely replaced by the messianic regime. Even the antizionists can rejoice in Israel being saved from Iran instead of fuming.
@lerntmintayrah
nobody wants yidden to die (except tziyonim, apparently). stop with the straw-man you’ve constructed.AAQ said – Are we 100% sure that Moschiach will run a monarchy?
It certainly seems that way from all of our sources. Although in a genuine Torah Malchus, the King isn’t above the ‘constitution’ – i.e. the Torah, so Jewish מלכות is ‘constitutional’. Even when Izevel wanted to ‘help’ Achav confiscate the vineyard of Navos, she had to concoct an elaborate plot with false witnesses to give the appearance that he was really חייב מיתה, and Achav couldn’t simply take it by force. And that was by Achav, who obviously wasn’t a big Tzaddik.
AAQ – Rambam says there will be no difference except that Yidden will not be governed by others.
According to Rambam there will be no difference in the physical order of nature (literal וגר זאב עם כבש for example). There will be huge differences in society both within the Jewish people and in the world at large compared to what we are used to. Everyone will have an iPhone without any filter, because there simply will be no more shmutz in the world. When the Sanhedrin will be Mekadesh Rosh Chodesh, or declare an Ibbur year, the Calendar App will automatically update. Moshiach’s Shiur will be broadcast live on all of the telecommunications channels in the world. India and Pakistan and whatever will be left of Russia and Ukraine will be best buddies… Bibi will probably go into voluntary and honorable retirement… All this aside from the Beis Hamikdash with Korbonos and Aliyah Laregel etc. So a lot of stuff is definitely going to change for the better… במהרה בימינו אמן.
lernt > Yet, when Menachem Begin asked for a bracha of success
indeed. R Schach also writes that Hashem induced Arabs to hate Zionists to prevent them form intermarrying. So, he clearly cared about their neshomos.
At the same time, when Begin offered full support for charedi schools, R Schach instructed to get usual percentage – so that the schools do not become fully dependent on government and then fail when the government changes. So, he was dealing with realistic expectations trying to build a healthy system.
Parenthetically, I do not understand when people selectively quote from someone they call a “gadol”. What greater disrespect you can have for someone than misrepresent his position and making him into a one-dimensional caricature.
YYA > Although in a genuine Torah Malchus, the King isn’t above the ‘constitution’ – i.e. the Torah, so Jewish מלכות is ‘constitutional’.
Indeed, and Achav example is pertinent – even a bad Jewish King is not ready to follow standard practices of goyishe ones. Probably something to keep in mind when judging Israeli politicians.
Still, Shmuel was not happy about Jews choosing monarchy. And Jewish system clearly has elements of separation of powers, to adifferent degree depending on time: king, kohanim, sanhedrin.
We are all in favor of David’s dynasty by now, but it does not mean that some elements of democracy are not appropriate. Gemora and especially Rishonim were during periods when monarchy was a natural state of things – democracy was discredited somehow by Greek and Roman experiences. But it is working, somewhat, in our days, so why can’t we retain elements of democracy?
Democracy is needed when you need the wisdom of the masses. A divine king needs no democracy.
Satmar , somejew and katan are fraudulently dreing a kop.
They all claim that its preferable to rather let millions of innocent yehudim die , than be over on their corrupted version of non existent halachik shavu’ot.
This THE line dividing them and the majority of klal yisrael.
You can find any other weasel words to get out of acknowledging this true and extremely important halachik schism between us.
But this schism exists .
And is liable to have far reaching repercussions.
They should go back to the root of their mistaken thinking and carefully retrace their halachik deliberations to make one hundred percent sure their reasoning is foolproof.
Otherwise they will be guilty of megaleh panim batorah shelo kehalacha and on top of that be guilty of being mafkir damam shel harabim.
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