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AAQ – According to the Rambam (and everyone else for that matter), the main job of Moshiach is to bring about a מצב of כי מלאה הארץ דעה את ה׳, where all of כלל ישראל will be keeping the Torah perfectly (including in middos and בין אדם לחברו), and even the אומות העולם will behave themselves in a normal and peaceful fashion. That being accomplished, there probably won’t be much need for ‘government’ in the sense we know it today, because basically everyone will be doing what they’re supposed to be doing voluntarily. Why Shmuel Hanavi was not happy with the request for a monarchy is actually not a סתירה to the above at all. They asked for a מלך ככל העמים, i.e. muscle power, Make Israel Great Again, etc. To that Shmuel Hanavi said ה׳ הוא מלככם, i.e. a רוחניות leadership of נביאים (supplemented in the גשמיות department by ad hoc שופטים) is obviously better than that, unless a king and standing army etc. is necessary, which it may not have been just yet at that time. The מלכות of Moshiach will clearly be of the ה׳ הוא מלככם variety, even though Moshiach will hold the title of king and will (בפשטות according to all our מקורות TTBOMK) wield absolute power over all of mankind. At any rate, it isn’t our problem to give suggestions what will be then. The Rambam cautions against trying to predict the details of what will be and how it will be. The Ribbono Shel Olam can take care of that, and rest assured that it will be very very good.
Lernt, a good argument, but at what point. R Akiva supported “bar Kochba for Moschiach” campaign – and his position was as a successful leader of a rebellion, which in part means supported by people. And if Yidden will all have understanding of Hashem – they presumably will vote accordingly.
Anyway, the best way to improve on Israeli democracy is by influencing the voters. Let them see observant Yidden doing wonderful things and they’ll want to vote accordingly. In theory, a “religious” party should be getting more votes than those who go to corresponding shuls – votes by people who might not personally behave fully observant but looking favorably on those who are. I think Shas in this position getting “traditional” Sephardi votes – is this so? I don’t think other “religious” parties draw outsiders. For those who know better: is it so or not?
YYA, I don’t really have a strong argument for democracy under moshiach, I am only raising a doubt that it might be possible and democracy might not contradict Torah even during moshiach times
Thanks for bringing up Shmuel. I have a question on his annoyance at the request. All this loshon about “like other people ” is secondary, the reason behind the rejection of Navis rule is… Shmuels fault and even more , Shmuel saw same error done before and knew the grave punishment. Hope someone can solve this simple riddle and explain Shmuels anger.
Reminder
A] the following is somejew’s “psak” :
this is somejews language , copied and pasted :
In (very) short, that means that if goyim – chas v’shulem – threaten masses of jews, our kosher responses are: make peace, give gifts, run away, and pray to G-d. What we are not allowed to do is organize an army and physically fight the enemy.
[somejew]
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B] the following is maran habet yosefs psak in his halacha sefer the shulchan aruch :
halacha mandates , violating Shabbos to physically fight against an enemy that attempts to seize even ‘kash vateven’ —since it begins with kash and ends with lives (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim, siman 329).
Will repeat again :
mandates to …. physically fight against an enemy.
—
This is the question mr somejew –
How do you fit A with B ?
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.Shulchan Aruch, chelek Orach Chaim, Siman 329, Sif 6:
עכו”ם שצרו על עיירות ישראל אם באו על עסק ממון אין מחללין עליהם את השבת
באו על עסק נפשות ואפי’ סתם יוצאים עליהם בכלי זיין ומחללים עליהם את השבת
ובעיר הסמוכה לספר אפילו לא באו אלא על עסקי תבן וקש מחללין עליהם את השבת
הגה ואפילו לא באו עדיין אלא רוצים לבא [א”ז]:(6) Regarding non-Jews who besiege Jewish cities:
If they come for money, we do not desecrate the Shabbat [to protect ourselves],
but if they came to kill or come with no presented reason,
we go out with weapons and desecrate the Shabbat.In a city that is near the border, even if they just come for straw or hay,
we desecrate the Shabbat.Rem”a: Even if they haven’t come but they want to come (Or Zarua).
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FULL DISCLOSURE:
This is not my English translation;
I just copied it from www (dot) sefaria (dot) com.
____________________________________________________________________________CONCLUSION:
Those who say that are not permitted to “physically fight the enemy”
[like “SomeJewIKnow”] are contradicting the Shulchan Aruch and Rambam.____________________________________________________________________________
PERSONAL COMMENT:
A few weeks ago, “SomeJewIKnow” falsely slandered me,
on this web site, and in this Coffee Room, by falsely claiming
that I think that women should be Gedolei Torah.I NEVER believed that, and I NEVER said that,
and I NEVER said anything similar to his false slander against me.A few weeks ago, “SomeJewIKnow” falsely slandered me,
on this web site, and in this Coffee Room, by falsely claiming
that I think that believers in J—– should be Gedolei Torah.I NEVER believed that, and I NEVER said that,
and I NEVER said anything similar to his false slander against me.SomeJewIKnow does not know Halachah, and he is a Baal Motzi Shem Ra.
Rambam, Hilchot Shabbat, chapter 2, paragraph 23:
[The following rules apply] when gentiles lay siege to Jewish cities:
If their intent was financial gain, then Shabbat laws should not
be violated because of them, nor are we allowed to wage war against them.If a city is located near the border, however,
we should march against them with weapons and wage war against them,
even when they are [merely] demanding hay or straw.In any location, if the gentiles’ intent was [to harm] Jewish lives,
or if they engaged in battle with a city or laid siege to it,
without stating a specific intention, we must wage war against them
and the Shabbat laws should be violated because of them.It is a mitzvah for every member of the Jewish people
who can come [to their assistance] to go out and help their brothers
who are under siege and save them from the gentiles [even on] Shabbat.
It is forbidden to delay until after Shabbat.After they [the Jewish soldiers] saved their brothers,
they [the Jewish soldiers] may return home with their weapons
[even] on Shabbat, so that a dangerous situation will not be created in the future.Babylonian Talmud, tractate Sanhedrin, page 72A:
“If you see someone coming to kill you, then arise and kill him first.”
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PERSONAL COMMENT:In our time, Hamas and Hezbollah and Houthis are coming to kill us.
For Jews to arise and kill them first is not merely permitted,
it is required by Torah Law.Somejew is so committed to deny the am hayoshev betsion their rightful halachik p/n protections because of Z, that he will even stop a soldier reporting for duty in his Arrow 3 anti missile unit .
Even though the only possible action in this unit is purely defensive .
The only possible action they could do , is shooting down iranian missiles the size of a bus with half a ton of explosives in the drivers seat.
Practically speaking , “so called dayan somejew” will paskan that said soldier should stay home .
Stay home, and as a result al pi derech hatevah , innocent civilians all over artsenu hakdosha will have to deal with five to tenfold more such buses raining down over their heads ….
And somejew still thinks that this ‘so called psak of his’ is considered as going through the rigorous process of halachik give and take as practiced in orthodox Judaism for the last thousands of years ….
I have one word to accurately describe somejew’s approach and responsibility :
UNBELIEVABLE.
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.
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.Yankel Berel:
PLEASE say “Pikuach Nefesh” because not everyone knows what “P / N” is.
THANK YOU!!
yankel> that he will even stop a soldier reporting for duty in his Arrow 3 anti missile unit .
It is easier. Iron Dome does not hit projectiles that go into no-man land. If someone does not want to rely on Iron Dome, they should report their coordinates to Tzahal and get tax exemption for paying for iron dome. I am proposing the name of this system “makom she ein ish”
Several weeks ago, one of the fanatical anti-Zionists
who often comments in this Coffee Room suggested
that the State of Israel could be dismantled peacefully,
because the former Soviet Union (USSR) was dismantled peacefully.The former Soviet Union (USSR) was VERY DIFFERENT from Israel.
The former Soviet Union (USSR) was NOT surrounded by
hundreds of millions of fanatical bloodthirsty terrorists
whose religious beliefs required them to KILL as many Russians as possible.The Soviet Union was NOT surrounded by hundreds of millions
of brainwashed death-cult terrorists whose religious beliefs
required them to commit genocide by killing ALL Russians.In others words, the former Soviet Union (USSR) could be
dismantled peacefully, because they were NOT surrounded
by countless millions of relentless bloodthirsty terrorist enemies,
like Israel is.Peaceful dismantlement is NOT POSSIBLE for Israel, because
of the hundreds of millions of fanatical bloodthirsty terrorists
whose religious beliefs required them to KILL as many Jews as possible.Peaceful dismantlement is NOT POSSIBLE for Israel,
because of the hundreds of millions of brainwashed
death-cult terrorists whose religion requires them
to commit genocide against Jews by killing ALL Jews.Hello
Mr somejew ??
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Your also brainwashed. See the Arabs are exhibit A of people who follow authority blindly.
You can’t dismantle Israel because limud torah is so important that it overrides antiZionist hatred of Israel. As it can’t be dismantled without hundreds of thousands of yidden thrown out of learning, it can’t be done.
The purpose of mashiach is so everyone knows the truth. Lol nothing to do with כי כל הארץ. It will happen as a byproduct of everyone knowing the truth. But also it’s not just about Jewish people it’s everyone.
time to close this thread which goes under the most irrational and impractical and therefore most dangerous title possible.
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