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AAQ – According to the Rambam (and everyone else for that matter), the main job of Moshiach is to bring about a מצב of כי מלאה הארץ דעה את ה׳, where all of כלל ישראל will be keeping the Torah perfectly (including in middos and בין אדם לחברו), and even the אומות העולם will behave themselves in a normal and peaceful fashion. That being accomplished, there probably won’t be much need for ‘government’ in the sense we know it today, because basically everyone will be doing what they’re supposed to be doing voluntarily. Why Shmuel Hanavi was not happy with the request for a monarchy is actually not a סתירה to the above at all. They asked for a מלך ככל העמים, i.e. muscle power, Make Israel Great Again, etc. To that Shmuel Hanavi said ה׳ הוא מלככם, i.e. a רוחניות leadership of נביאים (supplemented in the גשמיות department by ad hoc שופטים) is obviously better than that, unless a king and standing army etc. is necessary, which it may not have been just yet at that time. The מלכות of Moshiach will clearly be of the ה׳ הוא מלככם variety, even though Moshiach will hold the title of king and will (בפשטות according to all our מקורות TTBOMK) wield absolute power over all of mankind. At any rate, it isn’t our problem to give suggestions what will be then. The Rambam cautions against trying to predict the details of what will be and how it will be. The Ribbono Shel Olam can take care of that, and rest assured that it will be very very good.
Lernt, a good argument, but at what point. R Akiva supported “bar Kochba for Moschiach” campaign – and his position was as a successful leader of a rebellion, which in part means supported by people. And if Yidden will all have understanding of Hashem – they presumably will vote accordingly.
Anyway, the best way to improve on Israeli democracy is by influencing the voters. Let them see observant Yidden doing wonderful things and they’ll want to vote accordingly. In theory, a “religious” party should be getting more votes than those who go to corresponding shuls – votes by people who might not personally behave fully observant but looking favorably on those who are. I think Shas in this position getting “traditional” Sephardi votes – is this so? I don’t think other “religious” parties draw outsiders. For those who know better: is it so or not?
YYA, I don’t really have a strong argument for democracy under moshiach, I am only raising a doubt that it might be possible and democracy might not contradict Torah even during moshiach times
Thanks for bringing up Shmuel. I have a question on his annoyance at the request. All this loshon about “like other people ” is secondary, the reason behind the rejection of Navis rule is… Shmuels fault and even more , Shmuel saw same error done before and knew the grave punishment. Hope someone can solve this simple riddle and explain Shmuels anger.
Reminder
A] the following is somejew’s “psak” :
this is somejews language , copied and pasted :
In (very) short, that means that if goyim – chas v’shulem – threaten masses of jews, our kosher responses are: make peace, give gifts, run away, and pray to G-d. What we are not allowed to do is organize an army and physically fight the enemy.
[somejew]
——-
B] the following is maran habet yosefs psak in his halacha sefer the shulchan aruch :
halacha mandates , violating Shabbos to physically fight against an enemy that attempts to seize even ‘kash vateven’ —since it begins with kash and ends with lives (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim, siman 329).
Will repeat again :
mandates to …. physically fight against an enemy.
—
This is the question mr somejew –
How do you fit A with B ?
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.Shulchan Aruch, chelek Orach Chaim, Siman 329, Sif 6:
עכו”ם שצרו על עיירות ישראל אם באו על עסק ממון אין מחללין עליהם את השבת
באו על עסק נפשות ואפי’ סתם יוצאים עליהם בכלי זיין ומחללים עליהם את השבת
ובעיר הסמוכה לספר אפילו לא באו אלא על עסקי תבן וקש מחללין עליהם את השבת
הגה ואפילו לא באו עדיין אלא רוצים לבא [א”ז]:(6) Regarding non-Jews who besiege Jewish cities:
If they come for money, we do not desecrate the Shabbat [to protect ourselves],
but if they came to kill or come with no presented reason,
we go out with weapons and desecrate the Shabbat.In a city that is near the border, even if they just come for straw or hay,
we desecrate the Shabbat.Rem”a: Even if they haven’t come but they want to come (Or Zarua).
____________________________________________________________________________
FULL DISCLOSURE:
This is not my English translation;
I just copied it from www (dot) sefaria (dot) com.
____________________________________________________________________________CONCLUSION:
Those who say that are not permitted to “physically fight the enemy”
[like “SomeJewIKnow”] are contradicting the Shulchan Aruch and Rambam.____________________________________________________________________________
PERSONAL COMMENT:
A few weeks ago, “SomeJewIKnow” falsely slandered me,
on this web site, and in this Coffee Room, by falsely claiming
that I think that women should be Gedolei Torah.I NEVER believed that, and I NEVER said that,
and I NEVER said anything similar to his false slander against me.A few weeks ago, “SomeJewIKnow” falsely slandered me,
on this web site, and in this Coffee Room, by falsely claiming
that I think that believers in J—– should be Gedolei Torah.I NEVER believed that, and I NEVER said that,
and I NEVER said anything similar to his false slander against me.SomeJewIKnow does not know Halachah, and he is a Baal Motzi Shem Ra.
Rambam, Hilchot Shabbat, chapter 2, paragraph 23:
[The following rules apply] when gentiles lay siege to Jewish cities:
If their intent was financial gain, then Shabbat laws should not
be violated because of them, nor are we allowed to wage war against them.If a city is located near the border, however,
we should march against them with weapons and wage war against them,
even when they are [merely] demanding hay or straw.In any location, if the gentiles’ intent was [to harm] Jewish lives,
or if they engaged in battle with a city or laid siege to it,
without stating a specific intention, we must wage war against them
and the Shabbat laws should be violated because of them.It is a mitzvah for every member of the Jewish people
who can come [to their assistance] to go out and help their brothers
who are under siege and save them from the gentiles [even on] Shabbat.
It is forbidden to delay until after Shabbat.After they [the Jewish soldiers] saved their brothers,
they [the Jewish soldiers] may return home with their weapons
[even] on Shabbat, so that a dangerous situation will not be created in the future.Babylonian Talmud, tractate Sanhedrin, page 72A:
“If you see someone coming to kill you, then arise and kill him first.”
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PERSONAL COMMENT:In our time, Hamas and Hezbollah and Houthis are coming to kill us.
For Jews to arise and kill them first is not merely permitted,
it is required by Torah Law.Somejew is so committed to deny the am hayoshev betsion their rightful halachik p/n protections because of Z, that he will even stop a soldier reporting for duty in his Arrow 3 anti missile unit .
Even though the only possible action in this unit is purely defensive .
The only possible action they could do , is shooting down iranian missiles the size of a bus with half a ton of explosives in the drivers seat.
Practically speaking , “so called dayan somejew” will paskan that said soldier should stay home .
Stay home, and as a result al pi derech hatevah , innocent civilians all over artsenu hakdosha will have to deal with five to tenfold more such buses raining down over their heads ….
And somejew still thinks that this ‘so called psak of his’ is considered as going through the rigorous process of halachik give and take as practiced in orthodox Judaism for the last thousands of years ….
I have one word to accurately describe somejew’s approach and responsibility :
UNBELIEVABLE.
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.Yankel Berel:
PLEASE say “Pikuach Nefesh” because not everyone knows what “P / N” is.
THANK YOU!!
yankel> that he will even stop a soldier reporting for duty in his Arrow 3 anti missile unit .
It is easier. Iron Dome does not hit projectiles that go into no-man land. If someone does not want to rely on Iron Dome, they should report their coordinates to Tzahal and get tax exemption for paying for iron dome. I am proposing the name of this system “makom she ein ish”
Several weeks ago, one of the fanatical anti-Zionists
who often comments in this Coffee Room suggested
that the State of Israel could be dismantled peacefully,
because the former Soviet Union (USSR) was dismantled peacefully.The former Soviet Union (USSR) was VERY DIFFERENT from Israel.
The former Soviet Union (USSR) was NOT surrounded by
hundreds of millions of fanatical bloodthirsty terrorists
whose religious beliefs required them to KILL as many Russians as possible.The Soviet Union was NOT surrounded by hundreds of millions
of brainwashed death-cult terrorists whose religious beliefs
required them to commit genocide by killing ALL Russians.In others words, the former Soviet Union (USSR) could be
dismantled peacefully, because they were NOT surrounded
by countless millions of relentless bloodthirsty terrorist enemies,
like Israel is.Peaceful dismantlement is NOT POSSIBLE for Israel, because
of the hundreds of millions of fanatical bloodthirsty terrorists
whose religious beliefs required them to KILL as many Jews as possible.Peaceful dismantlement is NOT POSSIBLE for Israel,
because of the hundreds of millions of brainwashed
death-cult terrorists whose religion requires them
to commit genocide against Jews by killing ALL Jews.Hello
Mr somejew ??
.
Your also brainwashed. See the Arabs are exhibit A of people who follow authority blindly.
You can’t dismantle Israel because limud torah is so important that it overrides antiZionist hatred of Israel. As it can’t be dismantled without hundreds of thousands of yidden thrown out of learning, it can’t be done.
The purpose of mashiach is so everyone knows the truth. Lol nothing to do with כי כל הארץ. It will happen as a byproduct of everyone knowing the truth. But also it’s not just about Jewish people it’s everyone.
time to close this thread which goes under the most irrational and impractical and therefore most dangerous title possible.
All the Zionists are so aduk to their idol that they simply cannot see reality, no matter what anyone says.
As the Chazon Ish noted, one morning, we will wake up to discover that the Zionist “State” simply no longer exists.
The Brisker Rav (if memory serves) stated that Mashiach will (of course) take control of the land but not directly from the Zionists.
The Satmar Rav stated that everything (infrastructure?) the Zionists made will be destroyed and that, yes, if the Zionists wanted to resolve their cataclysmic problem they caused, they could go to the nations and they would find a way.The truth obviously is that there certainly could be a way (or many ways) in which the Zionist paradise could be changed into a normal country under control of Esav without any Jews CH”V being hurt. But the Zionists would never even consider that, because Zionism is the top priority in that idolatrous faith, far higher than even Jewish lives. Eileh elohecha, Zionists.
Satmar Rabbi by the way of katan> verything (infrastructure?) the Zionists made will be destroyed and that, yes, if the
Ponevezher Rov disagreed: as he was building yeshivos, he became a bohen in construction. As he was passing a construction site for a Histadrut building, he reprimanded the builders for not using reinforced steel. They were amazed at his knowledge of the trade and also wondered why he cared about quality of a Histadrut building. He replied that he believes that there will eventually be a yeshiva there too, so he does not want it to have a shaky foundation.
katan is living in lala land
the problem is that he thinks that he lives on earth
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the true secret behind katan’s delusional haskafa is the following
he claims no jew will be harmed even when IDF stops fighting
which is totally delusional
and obviously so
.
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the secret behind it is simple – katan has no skin in the gamekatan holds , and he will not deny this , like his compatriot somejew,
that when faced with a choice of sure death on one hand , and fighting and surviving on the other ,
one is OBLIGATED to die , together with his kids ,together with all his grandchildren ,
together with his neighbors , together with all residents of his street
together with all mitpallelim in his shul , together with all inhabitants in his city
together with all residents in the holy land , young and old
from sucklings to ctizens in old age homes
.
.
so think about thiswhat difference does it make whether there is or is not a viable plan to look after yoshvei EY ?
they do all ‘get on the plane’ or not
can you safely evacuate 8 million people and their possessions or not
it all is totally irrelevant anyway…
fighting as defense is out of the question anyway …
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no wonder katan and somejew could come up with the most ridiculous ideas possibleit is clear that neither katan nor somejew have no responsibility whatsoever for the well being of yoshvei EY
they ‘ll readily admit that , they will say : the Z caused the mess so they should clean it up.
meaning – we have no responsibility for the well being of yoshvei EY
it is preferable that they die , over active self defense
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it is important to keep this in mind , when engaging with them about possible ‘alternative solutions’ for safety of yoshvei EY ….
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..
yankel berel:
You are conflating (as Zionists always do) two different matters.
Regarding the cataclysmic mess that the Zionists made in the holy land, and against the wishes of the Jews there, it is indeed only reasonable that the Zionists attempt to clean up their own mess and leave the Jews out of it. Of course, the wicked Zionists are attempting to shmad the Jews there, and at levels never seen before, and harass and impoverish the Jews there.The other point is self-defense, to which all agree that one must defend one’s self, particularly if leaving the area of conflict is not possible. But the Zionist army is not relevant to that point, as the Zionist army is a shmad factory with all three of the gimmel chamuros, so that’s obviously a non-starter, regardless.
The nonsense about evacuating 8 million people is a straw man argument. As written above, if the Zionists wanted to end their forever wars – and the billions of dollars they needlessly waste each year on “defense” – they could go to the nations who would find a solution that would ensure the safety of the Jews (far better than the Zionists ever could) while ending Zionism and the mess the Zionists made, as the Satmar Rav wrote decades ago. But, of course, the Zionists would never do that, because, in their idolatrous anti-Jewish faith, Zionism is above all else including Jewish lives, as the Zionists demonstrated more than amply during (and before and after) the Holocaust.
Even the Satmar Rebbe didn’t believe it was real avoda zara. When push came to shove, he allowed his chassidim to collect money in a shul with an Israeli flag . If it was real avoda zara he would not have allowed his chassidim to even enter the shul. To say nothing of the Satmar Rebbe zt”l boarding the Zionist Kastner train. Kol bar bey rav dechad yoma knows that chazal abolished the taava for avoda zara so there isn’t any today except in rare circumstances. “Avoda Zara” is a melitza to frighten the amaratzim and to troll others in the Coffee Room.
katan to yb:
…. The other point is self-defense, to which all agree that one must defend one’s self, particularly if leaving the area of conflict is not possible. But the Zionist army is not relevant to that point, as the Zionist army is a shmad factory with all three of the gimmel chamuros, so that’s obviously a non-starter, regardless ….—-
The Q is not , whether you or me should send our kids to what you call the “shmad factory”
The Q is , whether the shmad factory , as it is , should fight , or
stop fighting
That , and that only, is the Q here.
The repercussions of the answer to that Q are crystal clear
If they stop fighting , we all know what is going to happen .
mass murder [chvsh] ….
.
So the Q I posed to you , and
you ignored it , was
whether organized self defense to save millions from mass murder
is mandated , or
prohibited ?
.
.you have not answered this very simple question ….
..
LerntminTayrah:
You also need to understand Torah, not just learn it. And learn history.A shul with an abomination that is the Israeli flag does not automatically make the shul a place of idolatry. It does make it very strange, because flags don’t belong in shuls, in general – certainly not that of a foreign country – but that has nothing to do with the fact that Zionism is very clearly A”Z, as explicitly stated in writing by Rav Elchonon, the Brisker Rav, the Chazon Ish, and all the rest.
The Kastner train was largely funded by Agudah and American money. Regardless, that train was obviously not an idolatrous train, whatever that could even mean.
It isn’t wise to throw around expressions like even a one-day student knows, when the truth of what you claim is the opposite. First, you seem to have missed that meenus is very attractive, as Chazal point out, and that applies even today. As well, just because the yetzer hara for idolatry was removed, that doesn’t mean that therefore A”Z doesn’t exist. That’s silly. There is nothing stopping you from bowing down to a rock if you decided to do so. You have free will. It’s silly, of course, but that doesn’t mean you can’t do it. Same with Zionism. It’s very silly (far worse than that, actually), yet some still believe in that idol (and heresy).
Nu .
a to the point answer ?
when is it coming ?
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.yankel berel:
Self-defense, however it is needed, would be permitted only if running away is not an option. But the Zionist shmad army is totally irrelevant to all of that.HaKatan, it’s an offene Rambam that avoda zara requires intent. Mecca started out as explicit avoda zara, but in the times of the Rambam is wasn’t because the kavana wasn’t there. I’m sure you could dig up Geonim saying Mecca was avoda zara, but that doesn’t change the metzius later.
You admitted an Israeli flag isn’t avoda zara. So why do you keep repeating it’s avoda zara when you just admitted it’s not?The Brisker Rav zt”l was close to his Mizrachi relatives like R Meir Bar Ilan and certainly dsidn’t treat them like ovdei avoda zara.
Kastner was an explicit Zionist. This is easily found knowledge.
LMT:
Just because the Zionist flag itself is not an idol, according to Rav Moshe, that doesn’t at all change the psak of all the gedolim both before and after him that Zionism itself certainly is A”Z. Pretty straightforward.If dismantling the State of Israel (G*D forbid) is the correct derech,
then why has this idea *** NEVER *** been endorsed by organizations
that represent Orthodox Jews and Orthodox Judaism, including:
Agudath Israel, The Orthodox Union (OU),
and the National Council of Young Israel (NCYI)?If dismantling the State of Israel (G*D forbid) is the correct derech,
then why has this idea *** NEVER *** been endorsed by
a public statement from the Moetzes Gedolei Torah?I am not talking about the words of one or two specific Rabbis;
I am talking about all 9 members of the Moetzes Gedolei Torah
getting together at the same time, followed by a public statement
about dismantling the State of Israel (G*D forbid).This has *** NEVER *** happened, Baruch HaShem!!!!
And it never will happen, because dismantling the
State of Israel would result in all of these tragedies:[1] A Jewish Civil War, with Jews killing each other.
[2] Soon followed by ANOTHER HOLOCAUST,
in which most Jews in Israel would be killed,
including children and babies.[3] The complete destruction of all synagogues,
yeshivahs, mikvahs and holy places in Eretz Yisrael.[4] Hundreds of thousands of Jews becoming homeless and losing their possessions.
[5] Hundreds of thousands of Jews becoming hostages of Muslims and being tortured by Muslims.
Anyone who advocates for dismantling of the State of Israel
(G*D forbid) is therefore a RODAIF and not just once,
but 8,000,000 times for the 8,000,000 Jews in Eretz Israel.Anyone who advocates for dismantling of the State of Israel
(G*D forbid) is therefore a MOSAIR and not just once,
but 8,000,000 times for the 8,000,000 Jews in Eretz Israel.What is the appropriate punishment for someone who is a RODAIF 8,000,000 times?
What is the appropriate punishment for someone who is a MOSAIR 8,000,000 times?
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