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PAA:
1- so what
2- how is a train “simple” logistically? And if the other methods of transport exist what is the point
3- the housekeeper came out. It went back all the way to harrys parents… but skipped the riddle housekeeper horcrux spell
“But it would be a lot harder to deny it if he had been presented with incontrovertible proof.”
Precisely.
“WOW!!! How many times did you guys read each book?”
Um, bout…..levendy-six?
squeak:
1) So nothing.
2) Everyone just shows up to the train station and the train takes everyone together to Hogwarts. As opposed to arranging and coordinating hundreds of portkeys.
3) I thought you were referring to the bodies of the Riddles. Now I see what you are referring to. So I guess this just proves that Voldy didn’t make a horcrux from that murder. Or it was made using a different wand. This also kind of begs the question as to how Voldy was able to perform such powerful magic in his pitiful state of existence.
“Snake showed Fudge incontrovertible proof in the form of his Dark Mark, and Fudge just shook his head.”
That’s not quite as incontrovertible, unless you accept my memory tampering answer.
There are not varying degrees of ‘incontrovertible’. There was no other plausible explanation for the Dark Mark, except Voldermort’s resurrection.
And I do accept your memory tampering answer, inasmuch as whatever the facts of the matter, Fudge would have, at that point in time,completely ignored it. Had Voldermort himself walked into the Hospital Wing at that point he would have probably found an excuse (when that scenario actually did occur, he wasn’t the only witness, and he had a year’s worth of deaths to account for).
“It states in the Hogwarts letter that you can bring an owl, toad, or cat but Ron brings his rat, Scabbers”
??? ?????
???? ???? ???? ?????
7)The entire Sirius storyline is dependent on him being the secret-keeper for james and Lilly, yet at shell cottage Bill is HIS OWN secret-keeper. Um, what? Why didn’t James just become his own secret keeper?
James held it as a ????? to give it to Sirius. Why does the father of the baby not carry the baby and put it on the ??? ?? ????? and be ?????
And this is further proof that Dumbledore trumped Voldermort in virtually every category, including that one path Voldermort thought he alone had trod further than anyone.
This isn’t proof that Dumbledore trumped Voldemort in the one path Voldemort thought he trod further than anyone.
Hallows, not Horcruxes.
How many times did you guys read each book?
9 and three quarters.
I always wondered: If a pensieve is a memory, surely only the things one sees can be remembered. The visitor should only be able to see things from the view of the original baal-hazikoron! How Harry – every time he visits – see things from different angles? See other details?
Another point – not a question or inconsistency, but a seemingly illogical point: Quidditch is a great game. But 150 points for catching the snitch? Slightly out of proportion. It means that essentially, the game is being played by the two seekers [and 2 beaters slightly involved here], and the whole rest of the team are trying to make sure that they stay within a fifteen point margin. It seems irrational to make it that one snitch can counter 14 goals. If I would have made the game, I would have given the snitch a maximum of 50 points.
“There was no other plausible explanation for the Dark Mark, except Voldermort’s resurrection.”
Maybe it just means that he is getting stonger. It could mean anything. Dark Marks are not exactly common household magic. Who is to say that people know what it means when it burns? Who is to say that there is not a way to make it burn? Why should Fudge believe that? Moreover, even if there was no other explanation, the pensieve would still be advantageous because it would allow him to visualize what actually happened, which would make it more believable then just hearing about it.
“???? ???? ???? ????”
I was wondering when someone would finally ask this.
Pygmie Puff.
“James held it as a ????? to give it to Sirius.”
But when Sirius wanted to change the plan he should have given it back to James. Also, if it’s possible to change the secret-keeper, why didn’t Dumbledore change the secret-keeper for Grimmauld Place, considering that he knew that he was going to die?
How many times did you guys read each book?
42
I always wondered: If a pensieve is a memory, surely only the things one sees can be remembered. The visitor should only be able to see things from the view of the original baal-hazikoron! How Harry – every time he visits – see things from different angles? See other details?
If a memory is a magical concept that can be altered, removed, planted and stored, then it is not confined to that which is directly in the subjects sight-line, rather an imprint of the subjects perception in that given time. It would seem the one visiting the memory cannot perceive more than the subject, for example a conversation the subject was too far away to hear or a room he never entered.
I wonder what would happen if he tried? The memory would probably break down in some fashion.
“It states in the Hogwarts letter that you can bring an owl, toad, or cat but Ron brings his rat, Scabbers”
??? ?????
???? ???? ???? ?????
Arnold the Pygmy PUff (Ginny), Lee Jordan’s Tarantula (definitely illegal, but so what). Pahtus ?????? any reptile, bird or mammal that is bigger, more dangerous or more ostentatious than those mentioned.
But realistically, the answer seems to be that, on closer inspection, the letter lists the animals under ‘other equipment’. So this would exclude anything that would give an unfair advantage.
“Pygmie Puff.”
Actually, presumably pygmie puffs didn’t exist in the first book, and by the sixth book the letter might have included pygmie puffs, or Ginny might have been breaking the rules, but if we’re going to suggest that Ginny broke the rules, we may as well just suggest that Ron broke the rules.
sirvoddmort:
*clap* *clap* *clap* *clap*
very impressive!
though i completely disagree with your answer for the winking snake-i mean, really?!? yes, the ocular scale proper is a transparent scale covering the eye, but a transparent scale shedding would still be, wait for it….transparent!-,i am impressed with your breadth of knowledge of the series,(you got me on the snape one- i completely forgot about that exchange) and your opinion of the characters. while i would agree with your point of fudge being in denial, i would still argue that there were times throughout the seventh book that a little bit of luck would have gone a long way. furthermore, although yes, they are just slytherins, dumbledore has to at least put on a good showing of attempting to keep the students safe! when sirius black was “loose in the castle”, dumbledore didnt say: “Griffindor, Hufflepuff, and Ravenclaw- to the dining hall, Slytherin- you can go to your dormitories” right?
given your expertise, id like to see your take on the first conceptual question, how would you answer that?
🙂 Bump 🙂
The snitch shouldn’t be worth anything. It should just cause the game to end.
Actually, presumably pygmie puffs didn’t exist in the first book
Pygmie Puffs are miniature Puffskiens, and those where doubtless around for years. And whilst you may reply that full size Puffskeins might have been prohibited, Puffskeins are not particularly big, and as such the laws would apply equally.
[The size of Puffskiens can be determined by the fact that a nest of them was found under the sofa at 12 Grimmauld Place, leading to the obvious conclusion that they’re not particularly big]
Yes, the ocular scale proper is a transparent scale covering the eye, but a transparent scale shedding would still be, wait for it….transparent!
Actually, during the shedding the eye becomes cloudy. So, the snakes eye would cloud over, giving the appearance of one being closed. Another possible theory is that the snake inclined its head in a winking fashion. And the most probable theory is that JK didn’t put enough research into the ocular apparatus of boa constrictors.
Pygmie Puff.
There was a blanket ban on all WWW products, so that isn’t counted.
If a memory is a magical concept that can be altered, removed, planted and stored, then it is not confined to that which is directly in the subjects sight-line, rather an imprint of the subjects perception in that given time. It would seem the one visiting the memory cannot perceive more than the subject, for example a conversation the subject was too far away to hear or a room he never entered.
Altering, removing, planting and storing are all examples of various processes that can be performed on an already existing memory. The memory itself can only be what the subject remembers, however [see any dictionary definition of “memory”].
It is clear that the visitor is constrained to the boundaries of the subject.
“Harry looked anxiously behind him again. Snape remained close by, still buried in his exam questions – but this was Snape’s memory and Harry was sure that if Snape chose to wander off in a different direction once outside in the grounds, he, Harry, would not be able to follow James any further.”
However, the incredible detail of conversation between the 4 marauders, and especially after “Snape was on his feet again, and was stowing the OWL paper in his bag. As he left the shadows of the bushes and set off across the grass, Sirius and James stood up. Lupin and Wormtail remained sitting: Lupin still staring down at his book, though his eyes were not moving and a faint frown line had appeared between his eyebrows; Wormtail was looking from Sirius and James to Snape with a look of avid anticipation on his face.” – it seems that there is far too much detail for Harry to notice that Snape clearly couldn’t have known or seen then.
Why are there any poor wizards? They can so easily get rich with muggle money and then exchange it.
Is it true that Harry Potter is jewish?
Is it true that Harry Potter is jewish?
Harry Potter is a fictional character (although he is real – inside our heads), and therefore there is no real answer to that question. It would be unfortunate if he was, because ????? ?? ???? would pretty much bring his adventures to a short end. He is certainly not religious, which is evident from many many places in the story. So many that I won’t bother bringing any.
You are probably talking about the actor, Daniel Radcliffe. Who has absolutely nothing to do with our thread, because we are absolutely discussing the Book Series, not the films, which are a terrible portrayal of a brilliant saga.
Why are there any poor wizards? They can so easily get rich with muggle money and then exchange it.
Because of the Office for Prevention of Uunfair Advantage, Ministry for Magic. This office is in charge of ensuring that no magical powers will allow a wizard to use his/her skills to better a Muggle. And couple that with the stringent rules of magic in front of Muggles. Besides the fact, most (pure blood) wizards are too clueless about Muggle life to be able to do anything in it.
For a real in-depth analysis of this, read Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality.
“Is it true that Harry Potter is jewish?”
Read the beginning of this thread, which is dedicated to proving how Jewish Harry Potter is 😉
Apparently Daniel Radcliffe is Jewish (his mother is but not his father)
(Without addressing specific discussions…)
Well, that escalated quickly. I think this is the fastest-growing topic in my time on the CR so far. What does this say about us? 🙂
Interesting to see someone bring up Eliezer Yudkowsky’s “Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality.” You beat me to it, yekke2.
(The author is in fact an OTD Jew, in case anyone was curious. He’s an interesting chevraman – quote: “If you don’t sign up your kids for cryonics then you are a lousy parent.” What on earth is that, you ask? “Cryonics is the practice of preserving people who are dying in liquid nitrogen soon after their heart stops. The idea is that most of your brain’s information content is still intact right after you’ve ‘died’. If humans invent molecular nanotechnology or brain emulation techniques, it may be possible to reconstruct the consciousness of cryopreserved patients.”
Meanwhile, he’s a research fellow at an artificial intelligence foundation. And, of course, he writes fan fiction.)
This type of analysis of fictional works has a long history:
Started in the early 20th century,
“the Sherlockian game (also known as the Holmesian game, the Great Game or simply the Game) is the pastime of attempting to resolve anomalies and clarify implied details about Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson from the fifty-six short stories and four novels that make up the Sherlock Holmes Canon by Arthur Conan Doyle. It treats Holmes and Watson as real people and uses aspects of the canonical stories combined with the history of the era of the tales’ composition to construct fanciful biographies of the pair.” – Wikipedia
If you live in Lakewood, you’re welcome to come into the library
and look under Mystery-Doyle for William S. Baring-Gould’s “The Annotated Sherlock Holmes,” which is bigger than most sefarim (though its margins are rather large, and not always filled up).
Baring-Gould, the author of a fictional biography of the detective, was perhaps the game’s greatest player, and the creator of the method of determining what year a story took place in by comparing the weather in the story with that reported by a newspaper for that date in the years of the story’s period.
“Well, that escalated quickly. I think this is the fastest-growing topic in my time on the CR so far”
I’ll say. There’s been about four-and-a-half pages of posts in two weeks!!
BTW, in book 5, Harry, Hermione, Ron etc. wands are confiscated by Umbridge. The book never mentions that Harry got his wand back (or the others, for that matter) but later it says he had his wand (in the Ministry). Supposedly the Inquisitorial squad held onto the wands and Harry’s friends took them back when they turned on their captors. But I found it interesting that the book never mentioned it.
BTW, in book 5, Harry, Hermione, Ron etc. wands are confiscated by Umbridge. The book never mentions that Harry got his wand back.
Unlikely that I’ll be the only one to point this out, but the book explicitly says that Ron and the others grabbed the wands from the Inquisitorial Squad (Off the point, am I the only one who really, really wanted to be able to join the Inquisitorial Squad, as it sounds like incredible fun?) before joining Harry and Hermione on the edge of the forest.
P.S. I’m pretty sure yekke2 will post the exact extract at some point, so I will neglect that particular duty.
We are absolutely discussing the Book Series, not the films, which are a terrible portrayal of a brilliant saga.
Hear, hear.
“The book never mentions that Harry got his wand back”
right after Grawp chases away the centaurs, Ron, Ginny, Neville, and Luna find them in the forest and:
“so”, said Ron, pushing aside a low-hanging branch and holding out Harry’s wand,” had any ideas?”
“How did you get away?” asked Harry in amazement, taking his wand back from Ron.
“Couple of Stunners, a Disarming Charm, Neville brought off a really nice little Impedimenta Jinx”, said Ron airily, now handing back Hermione’s wand too. book 5, page 760
🙂 Bump 🙂
okay I accept the corrections 🙂 thanks ibump and duke voldemort 🙂
Also I always wondered how the twins knew how to work the map. Even Snape couldn’t work it out, how did they know what to say to get it to work?
Also I always wondered how the twins knew how to work the map. Even Snape couldn’t work it out, how did they know what to say to get it to work?
The password to the map was ‘I solemnly swear I am up to no good’. Knowing the twins, there was a good chance they would say that even without reference to the map. No, this is not a serious answer.
The most likely answer is that they used trial and error, or that the map opened up to them, seeing in them fellow mischief makers, and perhaps told them or helped them.
And it’s always possible it was some sort of school legend, passed down from menace to trickster through the generations (the password, that is). Filch certainly didn’t confiscate it from the Marauders themselves (seeing as he wasn’t around at the time they were), and therefore there had to be some older pupils or alumni with the secret.
Duke
The most likely answer is that they used trial and error,
on a blank piece of parchment?!?
and seeing as you are tytching up conceptual flaws regarding the map sir voddmort (im sorry…duke!), whats your take on this one:
We’re supposed to believe that during Ron’s first year that Fred and George NEVER checked up on or looked at Ron on the map to see that there was a “Peter Pettigrew” next to or near him? Ever? Recall, F&G “nicked” the map from Filch’s office in THEIR first year, so they’d had it already, and even if Molly didn’t know that they had it, she wouldn’t have said “Keep an eye on your baby brother this year, it’s his first year…”??? Or that they went through two (and a half, almost) years of Ron being there with “Scabbers” that they NEVER ONCE saw Ron next to a “Peter Pettigrew” and if they did, they never asked him who in the world Peter Pettigrew was? As rabble-rousing as the two boys were, we are supposed to believe that they never once checked up on their little brother before they gave the map to Harry?
🙂 Bump 🙂
“The most likely answer is that they used trial and error”
Oh, yeah. If I saw a blank piece of parchment, I’d think immediately, “Now, what would open this? Oh yeah, how about “I solemnly swear I am up to no good”! How obvious!”
Sorry sirvoddmort, I know that was sarcastic. It was mean of me to say it that way, so I apologize. I meant to say that I dont agree that that is a satisfactory explanation.
Don’t worry, I can handle a bit of sarcasm.
And it wasn’t just a ‘blank piece of parchment’. It was a blank piece of parchment stolen from a draw marked ‘highly dangerous’.
To rephrase the main explanation, they probably used trial and error, with the map responding and helping increasingly as they progressed. Remember, when Snape attempted to unlock the parchment, the Map recognized him, and spoke to him, and that was without any password.
So we can safely assume that when Fred and George got the map, they ‘spoke’ with it, and seeing them as kindred spirits, helped them as they tried to find the correct formula. By this I mean it didn’t tell them outright, but gave them hints as they progressed towards the correct formula, but still, fundamentally, using trial and error.
As rabble-rousing as the two boys were, we are supposed to believe that they never once checked up on their little brother before they gave the map to Harry?
This question is genuinely difficult. I have heard that the answer JK gave is that the twins would not know who Peter Pettigrew was, or at least not recognize it, and , not knowing every singly person in the school, disregard it.
I personally do not like this answer for a few reasons.
Firstly, Sirius Black was a famous murderer, and it is a bit of a stretch to say they wouldn’t recognize him.
Even assuming his name is not widely known (considering that Harry in the third book only found out by eavesdropping on a private conversation between teachers, indicating it was not widely known among students), this unknown person would be in constant close proximity to their brother, leading to at least some curiosity over who he was.
So we may just have to assume that they didn’t know who he was, didn’t check up on Ron often enough to notice that Peter was always there, and that they weren’t particularly interested in checking up on him anyway, no matter what their mother told them. Also, they shared the Map, so the likelihood of looking long enough to notice something wrong is halved.
Unlikely that I’ll be the only one to point this out…
P.S. I’m pretty sure yekke2 will post the exact extract at some point, so I will neglect that particular duty.
The way the CR is designed, all posts that you get to see are first approved by the moderators, which takes some time. Therefore, during the time until your post actually arrives onscreen anybody can post, and with certain posts pretty much everybody responds the same!
Firstly, Sirius Black was a famous murderer, and it is a bit of a stretch to say they wouldn’t recognize him.
Sirius Black was a murderer when Fred and George were likely to be toddlers. So they wouldn’t remember from the time. The only way they would know would be from hype afterwards, or from Daily Prophet articles etc. It is likely that they wouldn’t have known the story as detailed as we do, and didn’t know the name of his victim. Especially as he was only one of many victims. Note, Fred and George were unlikely to sit and read newspapers, nor were they likely to listen to Molly’s reminiscing. So where would they have found out about it?
The Delluminator always confused me. After its first name-change from Put-Outer to Delluminator, it was used as a tool to darken areas by absorbing the surrounding light. That is how Dumbledore and Moody used it.
Suddenly, we are introduced to a new use of it – some sort of guide that allowed Ron to hear them talking about him, and then enable him to apparate to where they were.
Is this something Dumbledore custom designed for Ron and just as a matter of style (#phineasnigellus) put it in the deluminator, or did the deluminator always have that function?
I heard from somebody (I think he saw it online, didn’t sound like his own!) that Dumbledore always used that to “spy” on Harry, which is how he knew – often without any rational explanation – where Harry had been and what he had done. [Think Book 2, where Harry is under the Invisibility Cloak in Hagrids shed, yet Dumbledore knows exactly where they are, and talks to them.]
This would enable him to listen to anything they said while mentioning his name. This theory, however, has many holes. Firstly, it would be a stupid way of designing that he could only hear when they said his name, because many conversations he would have wanted to hear he couldn’t, because they wouldn’t have mentioned his name.
Secondly, why would it only work when Harry mentioned his name – it would surely work when anybody in the world mentioned his name, which would surely be all the time! And if it were keyed in for Harry only, how does Hermione’s voice suddenly come up?
[This could be explained that the person closest to the heart of the owner would be heard; Harry was closest to Dumbledore, and Hermione was closest to Ron]
Thirdly, there are certainly things that happened while mentioning Dumbledore’s name that he didn’t know about. For example, Dumbledore’s Army – Dumbledore clearly didn’t know the name until he heard it, at which point he instantly came up with a plan. Another point would be where Harry tells Scrimgeour that he is Dumbledore’s man through and through, which Dumbledore didn’t know about until Harry told him after that.
I don’t buy that. But honestly, it seems like far-to-big a coincidence to have these two functions rolled into one!
Another confusing point is the ages of the various characters from the older generations. James, Lily, Sirius, Lupin, & Snape were all in the same class in school. [We see this in many places, the most obvious in Snape’s Worst Memory] Snape was also in school with Avery. . So Avery is minimum of two years older than James, because he was in school at the same time, and this conversation takes place in James’ fifth year (OWLs).
However, we see that Voldemort was in school was Avery [see Slughorns memory of Horcruxes, Avery is present, with Rodolphus Lestrange]. Meaning that Tom Riddle was in school with Harry’s parents, in the same class or within two above.
Which is strange, because we have no mention of that. Not from Hagrid, not from any teachers, not from Madam Rosmerta [book 3].
Worse still, Dumbledore says “Very few people know that Lord Voldemort was once called Tom Riddle. I taught him myself, fifty years ago, at Hogwarts”. That doesn’t make sense at all, because Harry’s parents were married young and were just starting off. (Can’t be bothered proving everything from quotes, but if you got any problems you can just ask!)
When Dumbledore is going through the Pensieve with Harry, he shows Voldemort working in Knockturn Alley, and then a disappearance of ten years “which we can only guess what he was doing”. So Voldemort didn’t rise to power (his Death Eaters were still a secret at that moment, see further in that chapter) for at least ten years after he left Hogwarts.
Even worse is that Arthur and Molly apparently got married when Voldemort was rising to power (“People eloping left right and centre”), meaning that they would have to be younger than Voldemort, and have been in school with James and Lily.
Another point was that Riddle left the school with Dippet in control; Lupin announces that Dumbledore became Headmaster when he was in school. And Dumbledore himself (in both Riddle’s memory and his own) was much, much, younger, and merely a Transfiguration teacher.
(The only real problem is Avery being in school with both Lily & Tom Riddle. If you ignore the instance of Avery being with Lily, and put him with Tom Riddle, everything makes more sense.)
OK, it’s pretty much an impossible question if you assume it’s the same Avery. Voldermort and the Marauders certainly did not go to Hogwarts at anywhere near the same time, that much is obvious. There is at least a 10 year gap.
So we will just have to answer that it is not the same Avery, but an uncle, son or other relative of the Avery who attended in Snape and the Maruaders’ time. Considering they were doubtless a Pure-Blood family, it is not too much of a stretch to say that numerous Averys would have attended Hogwarts. And the Avery we see later on during the War could be either, probably the younger. The other one could have been killed, captured or simply not mentioned in the books.
And you neglected to mention Rosier, who may or not be related to the Evan Rosier killed in a struggle with Aurors at the end of Voldermort’s first uprising, who is documented as being in school with Snape. There are doubtless numerous wizarding families who had members at Hogwarts several times during the period.
Duke
And as regards the Deluminator question, perhaps, as you mentioned, this function was only added after Dumbledore became aware of his impending death, and realised the necessity of ensuring Harry’s quest would go smoothly, and therefore engineered this function (or activated it). And concealing it in an abject useful enough and with enough value that he knew Ron would carry it, is why he ???? put it in the Deluminator.
As for the ‘spy’ theory, I dislike it for several reasons. Whilst it is certainly possible, I find it unlikely Dumbledore would stoop to such lows, no matter what his interests. Because Dumbledore may have been manipulative and cunning, this would probably appear detestable to him, as it breaches the grounds of common decency. But the refutations you bought down are not particularly troublesome, should one choose to accept this theory. Dumbledore would act surprised and as if he was just finding out this information, despite already knowing it, as were he spying he wouldn’t wish Harry to suspect. And Dumbledore, as a highly gifted wizard, probably had numerous methods to find invisible objects, not to mention the plain common sense of Hagrid having obviously been talked to them, and they hiding in the most obvious place in the room.
Duke
“Dumbledore would act surprised”
Nope. Dumbledore clearly had not anticipated the name Dumbledore’s Army until he heard it; he only came up with his plan of action then. And Dumbledore cried when Harry told him that he was Dumbledore’s man through and through. He wasn’t faking.
“And Dumbledore, as a highly gifted wizard, probably had numerous methods to find invisible objects”
Don’t like that either. The Invisibility Cloak, you have to remember, was one of the Hallows, and the most powerful of its kind. The only thing known with the ability to detect it are Moody’s eye and The Marauders Map. And that itself is exceptional; one would think that such a powerfully magical cloak could not be thrown by a map created by some gifted teenagers.
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