NeutiquamErro's favorite thread with an obscure title

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  • #1147496
    sirvoddmort
    Member

    I anticipated these rebuttals. Firstly, Dumbledore may have had that plan of action regarding the DA ready, but simply pulled it out of the bag at the correct moment. And also, when he cried, that could have been more as a result of being touched by the situation in the office, as it was. Imagine Dumbledore sitting in his office eavesdropping on Harry’s conversation. In the context of Harry’s argument there wasn’t much to get emotional about, Harry was just angry. But in Dumbledore’s office, he was announcing his full loyalty in a much more moving manner, and that is why he cried. Or, he was faking, an elaborate ploy to get Harry to avert his eyes so he would not notice that Dumbledore was obviously not that surprised.

    I agree that both of these are highly unlikely, but then again the entire premise of the theory is patchy, as I mentioned earlier.

    #1147497
    writersoul
    Participant

    “For a real in-depth analysis of this, read Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality.”

    I almost loved this one. The first ten chapters or so were fantastic. But he took it too far and it felt like it got very boring and dry very quickly (which is a shme, because he can be hilarious when he wants to be…).

    While I can’t pretend to be nearly as good at this stuff as all of you folks, a possible explanation of the Marauder’s Map thing: the map could obviously tell who was reading it- we know that from when it insulted Snape. (Of course, it’s possible that this was specifically written for Snape, but let’s pretend it wasn’t, because I want to pretend to be smart here.) It’s possible that the map could tell that Fred and George were the “right sort” and therefore it trusted them and somehow gave them the ability to access it. I can think of two ways- either it wrote it on the parchment (the way stuff was written on it for Snape) or the phrase “I solemnly swear I am up to no good” wasn’t even the original password- it was something that Fred or George happened to say that the map happened to like and trust and that it opened up to them for, and Fred and George, being intelligent, figured out that that was a kind of password for them. The people to whom the twins gave the map could obviously be trusted- not to mention that one of them is the son of one of the people who created the map in the first place.

    #1147498
    sirvoddmort
    Member

    And the Invisibility Cloak may have been exceptional, but it wasn’t infallible. A gifted wizard such as Dumbledore could, for example, disturb the dust in a manner which revealed the absence of air in that part off the room. Also, Dumbledore probably heard voices before he entered, and he noticed that the room had only recently been vacated, and he could easily guess who. From there it was easy to notice footprints, breathing or the like that gave away their presence.

    Add to that that he had been with the Minister up until then, and could hardly excuse himself to eavesdrop on Hagrid’s conversation. And knowing they were in the room wouldn’t tell him where in the hut they were hiding anyway. This part of the theory certainly doesn’t stand up to even mild scrutiny.

    Duke

    #1147499
    Chortkov
    Participant

    I almost loved this one. The first ten chapters or so were fantastic. But he took it too far and it felt like it got very boring and dry very quickly (which is a shme, because he can be hilarious when he wants to be…).

    The problem was that it wasn’t written as a book, it was released chapter by chapter in serial form, so every chapter had to be something of its own rather than being something in the bigger picture. I find the writer highly intellectual and pointing out things about Harry Potter that I never noticed I noticed, as well as an excellent parody.

    Only someone with originality can create a Harry Potter parody where, sadly, the troll does get to eat Hermione. And she doesn’t come back to life.

    #1147500
    Chortkov
    Participant

    Writersoul actually gave me an idea – It could be that the map didn’t actually show transformed animagi, like it didn’t show people under the Polyjuice Potion, and thats why Fred and George and Harry didn’t notice Wormtail.

    Lupin, however, was one of the creators of the map. He might have been able to use it in ways nobody else could. I imagine there was a way of activating it to show animagi, and Lupin did just that. Remember, Lupin was using the map because he thought they might go to Hagrids, and therefore wanted to make sure nothing happened to them. Knowing as he did that Sirius was a animagus, he would have activated it to check if Sirius was anywhere on site. Suddenly, he saw Peter Pettigrew as well. You could also say, a slight variation of this, that even though general animagi would show up, the Marauders coded that map to show nobody but a fellow Marauder their own animagi, because their animagi were illegal and secret!

    #1147501

    There are over a thousand students at Hogwarts. Unless you’re looking for someone, it is very easy to overlook some of the little dots. It could very well be that Sirius and Peter were on the map the whole time, but that Harry didn’t search them out so he never noticed them.

    #1147502
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “There are over a thousand students at Hogwarts.”

    That’s another issue. There are five boys in Harry’s year in his house. If that is representative of the school at large then the total number of students should be something like 5x2x7x4 which would come out to 210 students.

    #1147503
    sirvoddmort
    Member

    This is annoying. Just as I have to leave the thread turns interesting. Going to take an extended leave of absence, so if everybody could just assume I disagree with them, especially yekke2, that would be great. So long.

    Duke

    #1147504

    @Patul Avar Assur:

    I would assume Harry’s generation was particularly lower than most, as many children were killed/ people too scared of Voldemort.

    It probably varied year to year, Harry’s year being the least.

    But if we go with the theory that there probably under 250 students during Harry’s third year, than it doesn’t make sense that Harry didn’t notice Peter and Sirius on the map. So it must be that the map hides animagus when in animal form…

    #1147505
    Chortkov
    Participant

    sirvoddmort – If there is really anything we haven’t argued about before I’ll fill you in. Enjoy zman, and see you next week!

    #1147506
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Gryffindorable Girl:

    That would affect at least several years before Harry’s year as well. Remember, Mr. and Mrs, Weasely quickly got married because no one was certain about the future with Voldemort and all. Bill finished Hogwarts before Harry started, so this would certainly apply to anyone who overlapped with Harry.

    #1147507
    Chortkov
    Participant

    I just googled “Avery Harry Potter”, and from the results (i didn’t enter any, just looked!) it seems that it is accepted that there are two Averys, Marauder era and Riddle era.

    #1147508
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I don’t think it’s so crazy that Harry never noticed Sirius or Peter. First of all, he didn’t exactly use the map very often. And when he was using the map, Sirius may have been out of the maps boundaries. Peter was probably either with Ron or chilling in the dormitory, which are not exactly places that Harry would be wont to look at, and during the periods when he was missing, he may have also been outside the boundaries.

    It is interesting though, because Peter and Sirius both knew about the map and Peter for sure knew that Lupin was in Hogwarts, so they may have had some fear of being seen. This in turn may have led them to be careful to whatever extent possible to not be seen on the map.

    #1147509
    Chortkov
    Participant

    The map had been recovered from Filch’s drawers of highly dangerous items. It sounds like it had been confiscated when they were at school. Neither Sirius nor Peter would have dreamed that it would have resurfaced, and come back into Lupins hands. Lupin himself was quite shocked to see the map again.

    #1147510
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Yekke2:

    I don’t think there is any source that it was confiscated while they were at school. They may have left it (either directly or indirectly) to the next troublemaker(s). But regardless of when it was confiscated, none of them would have any reason to assume that it wasn’t still on the school premises. In fact I think it’s actually a kashya on Lupin. After the first time that Sirius entered the castle, he should have immediately sought the map. A simple summoning charm could have gotten it for him. Which incidentally leads me to my next question: Fred and George’s entire plan of escape in the fifth book relied on summoning their brooms. What would have happened had Umbridge protected the brooms from summoning charms? But perhaps Fred and George had somehow determined that she hadn’t.

    #1147511
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The magical people clearly practice age gap marriage. Is there a shidduch crisis?

    Is that why mcgonagal is not married? But neither are any of the professors!

    Maybe more women are mudbloods or more men are squibs?

    (See, HP really is just like judaism!)

    #1147512
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    How much is tuition at Hogwarts?

    Does the ministry pay for it?

    Why don’t they pay for your books also?

    #1147513
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The magical people clearly practice age gap marriage. Is there a shidduch crisis?

    Well, what’s the rate of population growth?

    #1147514
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Another issue:

    The thought process via which Harry figured out how to access the Resurrection Stone was way way way way way way too contrived.

    #1147515
    Chortkov
    Participant

    Is that why mcgonagal is not married? But neither are any of the professors!

    Only an unmarried person would dedicate his life to teach in the most dangerous school in the world. It is extremely impractical to have a married person balancing his life and the school. Remember, the Professors all lived in the school during term time. Unless you married a fellow professor, it would be too difficult.

    #1147516
    Chortkov
    Participant

    PAA – I am in total agreement there. If I remember correctly, JK Rowling waxes poetic with metaphors comparing life to a Quidditch game – The game was over, the snitch had been caught, and suddenly Harry remembers the Snitch.

    It would have been much more mood appropriate for him to be thinking about Life and Death, Immortality, Master of Death, the Deathly Hallows, and let everything suddenly fall into place. It wouldn’t hurt for him to think of his dying mother.

    #1147517
    Chortkov
    Participant

    What was so evil about Horcruxes – that makes it so incredibly evil – more than anything else? It seems to be that the actual objective of the Horcrux is not evil at all (although it may not come recommended), because pushing off death isn’t at all Dark, not any more than the Philosophers Stone wasn’t Dark Magic and Nicholas Flamel wasn’t a Dark Wizard. It is simply the means to the end which is undesireable, namely murder.

    It would be extremely shallow if all JK Rowling meant was the evil of the murder involved as a means to making the Horcrux. And there are ????? ??????? that that is not all:

    Which begs the question (a) What could possibly be wrong with preventing Death? (b) If there is something wrong, what was Harry’s profound response? (“Hallows, not Horcruxes.” – “Hallows,” murmured Dumbledore, “not Horcruxes. Precisely.”) (c) Similarly, what is the inherent difference between Horcruxes and Philosophers Stone?

    #1147518
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Yekke2:

    Fair question. (By the way I assume that when you wrote “the means to the end” you meant the opposite.)

    If I may venture into what may very well be ??????? ?? ???:

    Perhaps the quest for immortality is not inherently good or bad. It depends why you want to conquer death. Someone who wants to conquer death for the proper reasons (whatever they might be) would not so via horcruxes since it involves murder. Perforce, one who makes horcruxes is attempting to conquer death for the wrong reasons which is indeed something which should not be spoken of. Dumbledore, though he didn’t use horcruxes, knew himself that he was doing it for the wrong reasons, hence he was no better than Voldemort.

    I realize this is a tremendously dochek answer and it doesn’t even really explain why a horcrux would be the “wickedest of magical inventions”. However, despite the fact that creating a horcrux would not be inherently any worse than any other ways of conquering death, it could still make sense that “we shall not speak nor give direction”, in that the assumption is that generally speaking, the creation of a horcrux is the only practical way to conquer death (i.e. anyone can do it), so by censoring he instruction manual, you can effectively prevent almost everyone from conquering death.

    #1147519
    Chortkov
    Participant

    I always found: In the chapter Kings Cross, we discover that the “Avada Kedavra” spell did not actually kill Harry, but rather destroyed the fragment of Voldemort’s soul that was resting in Harry’s soul. Harry himself, however, could not be killed until Voldemort was destroyed.

    Why, then, did he go to this “halfway point” of Kings Cross, where he is apparently given the option to “board a train” and move “on”? Surely he wasn’t dead and couldn’t die?

    It wasn’t an entitlement he had to stay alive, it was simply the outcome of many factors that he hadn’t be killed. So how could he choose to move on?

    #1147520
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I actually shlugged myself up miney ubey in my last post.

    #1147522
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Horcruxes divide a person’s soul.

    #1147524
    Randomex
    Member

    RebYidd23, you beat me to posting that! I figured nine hours later, at one in the morning, if no one had responded, I didn’t need to hurry! I was working on a post hours ago already, but it wasn’t quite done, and I’ve been busy with other things…

    #1147525
    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    Horcruxes are worse than just dividing the soul. It’s premeditated murder (there’s a spell that needs to be said before avada kedavra) with the intention of a second one. In order for the horcrux to be of any use, the soul entrapped in the item must take the life of another person. The diary tried sapping Ginny’s life to come back to life. A horcrux can only be made by someone with no regard for human life.

    #1147526
    Randomex
    Member

    PAA:

    “(By the way I assume that when you wrote “the means to the end” you meant the opposite.)”

    No, he used the words correctly. The “means” is murder, and the “end” is immortality (through the Horcrux). (“Means” is a way of accomplishing, as in “by any means,” and “end” is the accomplishment, as in, “to that end.”)

    (I haven’t been reading the fancruft – I came in for the official study. When I saw you say you’d shlugged youself up, I went to take a look, and read up through Yekke2’s Horcrux post.)

    yekke2:

    “What was so evil about Horcruxes[…]?”

    Have you forgotten that Horcruxes involve dividing/ripping/tearing

    (or whatever words are used in the book) the soul?*

    Besides, Dumbledore describes murder as the “ultimate evil” – it

    is no stretch from there to saying that something created to depend on the ultimate evil is the “wickedest of magical inventions.”

    (Also, perhaps the evil of the Horcrux is that it is not merely murder as a means, but murder as a means for life. The creator takes that which he values so highly as to kill for it from his victim. An extreme degree of selfishness must be present for this (not precisely) vampirism.)

    Your Dumbledore quote seemed a major issue – I thought you had J.K. over a barrel with the “if it’s so evil to conquer death” question, but then this occurred to me – can’t “Was I better?” be interpreted not morally, but character-wise? He could simply be admitting being subject to the same fear as Voldemort was – but is then comforted either by the fact that he had not succumbed to it in the same way as Voldemort had, indicated by his morality not failing, or simply that he had not failed morally as did Voldemort.

    So:

    (a) It is personal weakness that lies behind the effort to avoid death.

    Additional answer: As in Judaism, wizard “X?”ology could hold

    that the purpose of life is not in this world but somewhere

    one goes after death. Attempting to avoid death is, then, an attempt to frustrate the purpose of life itself. Note the ending of Book 1? (It’s been a long time.)

    (b) Dumbledore had not been as weak, and/or failed morally as well. Why Harry was needed to give this answer is beyond me, but don’t many fans criticize the portrayal of Dumbledore towards

    the end of the series?

    (c) Horcruxes involve damaging the soul (and denying another,

    in favor of oneself, that which one holds most dear).

    *

    So what? A question for another post.

    #1147528
    Randomex
    Member

    If anyone’s addressed the issues I mentioned in the last couple of pages, just say so.

    Just remembered – Rowling would seem to have gone with the

    “I will create as I speak” origin theory for “abra cadabra,”

    as she uses “I will destroy as I speak” for the Killing Curse.

    #1147529
    Chortkov
    Participant

    What’s wrong with dividing the soul? And premeditated murder is still nothing to cry about! Yes, its, evil, but that is the Unforgiveable Curse of Avada Kedavra. What is so unspeakable evil about Horcruxes that all books must be removed from library and even the Darkest books won’t speak of it?

    And what issues did you mention, Randomex (Can’t remember! Rewrite them to renew!)

    #1147530
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    The soul is irreparably damaged when divided. By making a Horcrux, the essence of the person is messed up. (And why is everyone trying to defend Horcruxes anyway? They’re definitely evil?)

    #1147531
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Randomex:

    I read “It is simply the means to the end which is undesireable, namely murder” as referring back to the previous statement. Apparently it was its own statement. A small misunderstanding.

    #1147532
    Randomex
    Member

    They were in a post between my two posts, which was deleted.

    #1147533
    Chortkov
    Participant

    Randomex – What is the problem about ripping souls etc.? And I understand that it shows much more disrespect to life when one is killing simply for ones own purposes rather than because one wants the victim dead. But surely it is non proportionate – if a book full of Dark Magic (which horrifies Hermione!) can’t mention it, it has gotta be a whole load worse than simple murder (which is, as you said, evil, but is not a taboo subject at all!)?

    And Dumbledore was upset with himself because he himself who had said “For the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure”, fell through in the pursuit of immortality. I hear that.

    I don’t like how you differentiate between Philosophers Stone and Horcruxes. If we grant that the problem with horcruxes is the “end”, not the “means”, ie denying death=defeating life etc, like you suggested, then the Philosophers Stone would be equally bad.

    One could suggest, similar to what you are saying, that immortality is different to the Philosophers Stone, which was intended to extend life rather than prevent death.

    But why would there be a problem of preventing life at all? (And I mean that 100% even from a Jewish perspective, although if you want to debate that we can do that on another thread.)

    #1147534
    Chortkov
    Participant

    They were in a post between my two posts, which was deleted.

    So the questions you refer to have been deleted?

    #1147535
    Chortkov
    Participant

    Question 12) What happens when a secret keeper dies? Seems to be a contradiction whether the secret dies with him (Book 3) or whether all those to whom the secretkeeper divulged the secret to become keepers in their own rights?

    Question 13) Can prefects dock points? Inconsistency. In Book 5, Malfoy is informed that prefects cannot dock points, however in book 2 Percy docks points from Ron for being in Myrtle’s lavatory. (Although “cannot dock points from other prefects”, it is clear from that chapter that it was a chiddush that Malfoy could dock points at all. V’dok.)

    Just looking through the old thread, “In Witch She Snorted”, and both those questions are discussed there. I apparently had a tzad to answer “Question 13” that a prefect can only dock points from his own house, so as not to abuse the rights. I quite like that, actually.

    #1147536
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Yekke2:

    I didn’t want to post this in the middle of an intense theological discussion, so here it is: Why do you think I’m not a parselmouth?

    #1147537
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    It’s not really life when it’s a Horcrux.

    #1147538
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    My answer to the prefect question (I don’t think I posted it before) is that Percy couldn’t actually take away points but either he thought he could or more likely he was bluffing.

    #1147539
    Chortkov
    Participant

    Because you are so obviously a Ravenclaw! Poppa (resident Slytherin) might be a Parselmouth, but PAA?

    That isn’t like Percy at all to bluff. It is like him to think he could, but more like him to think he should. Hmmm. I prefer my answer!

    Just thinking now, the point system is quite nonproportionate too. At the beginning of Book 1, we start by docking one point at a time. After that, the numbers seem to multiply!

    #1147540
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Because you don’t dock a lot of points from little kids.

    #1147541
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Because you are so obviously a Ravenclaw! Poppa (resident Slytherin) might be a Parselmouth, but PAA?

    Interesting. I might be the first non-Slytherin to go bad. But given the choice, I probably would want to be in Ravenclaw. Keep in mind though that Harry was a Gryffindor and a Parselmouth

    edited name, not sure whose – 29

    #1147542
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    edited name, not sure whose – 29

    On page three, Yekke2 mentioned a Harry Potter FanFiction written by Eliezer Yudkowsky. I jokingly referred to him as Yekke2’s friend; I highly doubt they know each other. In Yudkowski’s story, Harry is in Ravenclaw. I apologize for the confusion, and I am glad to see that you are on your toes in protecting against identity revelation.

    Figured as much. I had actually skimmed through but didn’t see it. I happen to know Eliezer but didn’t know about that book. Sounds interesting. – 29

    #1147543
    Chortkov
    Participant

    Keep in mind though that Harry was a Gryffindor and a Parselmouth

    No he wasn’t. Common misconception, loads of people somehow missed the revelation in the book! Harry was NOT a Parselmouth; his body held two souls – his own and a fraction of Voldemorts. It was Voldemorts soul that could talk Parselmouth, not Harry’s. I highly doubt that after the Horcrux was exorcised Harry could still speak it. (Which sort of defeats the purpose of Dumbledore’s drosho in Book 2, but what can we do? It’s true!)

    #1147544
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Opting for the semantical route, are we? How do you know that I don’t have part of the soul of a parselmouth in me?

    #1147545
    Chortkov
    Participant

    My scar didn’t prickle whenever you post, so there is definitely no Dark Wizard hiding in your skull!

    #1147546

    What’s Harry potter a book? Never read it

    #1147547
    Letakein Girl
    Participant

    Harry Potter is the best book series ever written. You haven’t lived till you’ve experienced HP addiction. 🙂

    #1147548

    There’s more then one? And no u haven’t lived till u went to chassidish tish

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