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All of you, please understand that there are a lot of trolls on this website so NO PERSONAL information should ever be posted, not even your age and not even your school or what grade your in.
The names of some very helpful individuals were already discussed here and they can direct you to excellent sources of help. Rabbi Wallerstein has an excellent female therapist on his staff. Rebbetzin Esther Jungreis works with both boys and girls who have questions, you can google her or get her email address through the Jewish Press. I am very happy that all of you have been brave enough to ask for help and have realized that you do have ways and means to ask for help instead of trying to shoulder the burdens of issues that are way out of your league on your own.
Purplicious, you can’t control what others do only what you do. The only thing you can do if your friend chooses NOT to get help is to let him know that you care about him and his situation really frightens you. If you doesn’t recognize how serious his situation is and he doesn’t choose to get help on his own, then you will have to let someone YOU trust know about it because “Kol Yisroel areivim zeh la zeh. And he is too important a human being to allow to fall apart or die because of issues and problems that he can’t handle on his own and because he either doesn’t have anyone to turn to or doesn’t realize that he can find someone that he can turn to.”
No one knows who Hashem will choose to be a sheliach for another person. Anyone can be a shadchan for a couple no matter how old they are, and anyone can save another person’s life no matter how old they are, either by dialing Hatzola in an emergency or putting pressure on an open wound, or by calming a person down until help arrives, or in any number of ways; even by telling a trusted individual that you fear for someone’s life. Hashem chooses people for different reasons.
I don’t want YOU to feel guilty because YOU are put in a difficult position here. What is more important saving your friend’s life or keeping a confidence? It is unfair of your friend to put you in that position. At some point we have to make a choice and tell a person “I care too much to stand by you and watch you kill yourself, you are way too important to allow whatever happened to you or whatever is bothering you to kill you. There is an answer and/or a solution for whatever is happening to you and if you were MY friend you wouldn’t put me through this. You would allow me to find someone to help you and not make me fear for your life.”
So if I had a close relationship with MY parents even though my friend didn’t have a close relationship with his, or if not with my parents, with my aunt, or with the Rav of my shul, or a particular teacher or neighbor, I would tell them what I was going through and ask them to help me and take this burden off my shoulders because Ms. Purple, YOU DON’T deserve to worry like this, nor to think in any way, shape or form, if your friend were to go sour that you have any achrius in that. You are NOT responsible for his choices only yours. So you can let him know that you don’t want that kind of responsibility and if he doesn’t want to make the right choices for himself, at the very least you can make the right choices for yourself. Because you are only a kid yourself and the responsibility he is putting on your shoulders and your heart is way too much for a kid to handle or live with for the rest of her life.
I believe there are female Hatzolah members in Staten Island. There are also suicide help lines that are both Jewish and Non-Jewish. Rabbi Goldwasser has a website with a tab how you can reach him http://www.rabbidovidgoldwasser.com. So you can try that. He has a lot of experience with kids at risk as does Rabbi Horowitz who you can reach through Project Yes or his website Rabbihorowitz.com. Either one can direct you to a female that can help her.
Hatzolah members are trained to react to both emotional and physical medical conditions. Volunteers are very caring and if one you speak to does not know what to do, all they have to do is get another more experienced member in their location to deal with it. They are very discreet and are obliged to keep an oath of confidentiality.
So the advantages of speaking to a Hatzolah member is that if you can get someone who lives near her, he can meet up with her and just tell her that he is a hatzolah member and she can talk to him or call him any time she feels depressed or suicidal and he will listen to her, or he can give her the number of a help line she can call so she won’t feel alone and will always have someone to listen to her that will be completely anonymous. In that way she won’t feel that she has to hold everything inside and she won’t have to tell anyone who she is. But the fact that she is so depressed and wants to disassociate herself from reality really makes me worry. Maybe he can give her the local Hatzola number and they can send someone to meet her in the Pizza store or wherever without lights and sirens and then they can determine if she needs to go to the hospital or not, or if they can recommend someone for her to talk to. Also there are paramedics in Hatzolah and in many neighborhoods there are even doctors who volunteer for Hatzola.
Purplicious, everyone needs a support system. By making such a connection for her you are giving her a lifeline. You are telling your friend “I love you and I care about you, but your problems and issues are way over my head and way more than someone my age knows how to deal with. This is my suggestion…Hatzolah members are bound by confidentiality. If you reach out to them you will know that you have some form of support and maybe they can direct you to someone that can help you or help you figure out how to find answers to your questions. They have tons of resources. At the very least it gives you a lifeline to hold on to so I know that you are connected to someone who will care about you and will keep you safe and alive.” The entire Hatzola organization is about saving lives. So again I would suggest that you research this and see if it would be an option for your friend. Do you know anyone in Hatzolah?
Supreme, if you live in Brooklyn, contact Rav Dovid Goldwasser. He should be able to help you and help your friend. Purplicious, there are answers to every question one might have in the the Torah. No individual will have any or all answers on the spot, but the best answer to anyone who is asking is “I don’t know the answer to that right now, but maybe we can research that together, or work on that to find someone who can answer that for us.” Because there is always an answer for every question and a reason for everything we do. Not everyone is smart enough or educated enough to know and understand the why’s.
One more thing, personally I don’t take suicide threats lightly. I was involved in too many suicide attempts and rescues to do so. So again, if you know someone in Hatzolah please pass along the information and see if they can help your friend. This way you can back away knowing that you at least handing over the responsibility to someone else.
I am afraid that your friend has more issues than she is willing to share and it doesn’t have anything to do with religion but more of what has happened to her what her experiences have been either with her family, friends or even strangers. If she has threatened or spoken about suicide and you have a guidance counselor in school then maybe you should discuss it with her. You don’t necessarily have to say who your friend is right away, just let the guidance counselor know that you are over your head in this friendship and that you are very worried about your friend. Ask her what she suggests you do, and who does she think she should reveal this information to.
Your other option is to call Hatzala or to speak to a Hatzala member in your neighborhood and let them know who this girl is and that she has spoken to you about suicide. Maybe they can get a Hatzola member in her neighborhood to speak to her.
Purplicious, it sounds like she might be experiencing some form of depression, so that might have to be addressed as well. When someone is at such a low point, that they feel such hefkeirus, “i dont believe that there is a G-d running this world” it is more than “I have a problem with Religion”. It sounds more like she feels hopeless. There is something to this story, either something that has happened to her, or too many things that are bothering her that she can’t deal with or cope with. So maybe you would be better off finding her a good Frum therapist who she can unburden and vent to, to first get things into perspective. She might even need some medication for a while to get over the hump.
One needs to recognize the difference between hopelessness and depression and a person who is angry with Hashem and Yiddishkiet. It is NOT the same thing. It is so totally overwhelming to feel hopeless and feel like Hashem has deserted us or given up on us. And that is so totally different that a person choosing to turn their back on Hashem.
Waterbury Yeshiva is not a Kiruv Yeshiva per se they might help some kids with issues, but it is a regular yeshiva, maybe one that cares more.
As far as the Satmar community is concerned, there re many individuals who are very decent people, but the community in general have lowed the “mafia” to gain control and to bully them into doing their bidding and to keep quiet about their criminal activity against young and old alike. People are afraid to tell the emeshurts and as a community came forward to protect and elf end the menuval Webershmutz who was sentenced today to 103 years. The family of the victim was so harassed nd intimidated the police moved them out of their home in Williamsburg. Is this how Hashem wants Yidden to conduct themselves? Is this how one would describe ood Jews?
I disagree 100% with you. Don’t look to blame the child. Children don’t choose to go off the derech, they are pushed and shoved off! Answer a child’s questions and don’t feed him nonsense. And most of all don’t be a hypocrite and you will see less and less children going off. Protect abusers instead of children and you are still shoving kids off the derech, you are displaying hypocrisy in its strongest form! A child who is unhappy might choose to live with another family or not be as strict as his own family. A child that goes to such an extreme as to turn their backs on the entire religion was shoved out the door.
I am not here to debate anyone and I won’t. Morah, I will tell you again. Chasidim have their own way of looking at things and interpreting the Torah. If they tell anyone that if they are no longer frum they are no longer Jewish they are lying!! The only thing you need to be Jewish is a Jewish mother. Anyone that tells you otherwise is an idiot! No one can take away your yiddishkeit or your being a Jew. You either are a Jew or NOT. You can’t be 1/2, 1/4, or 1/8. You can either be a Jew or NOT and it has nothing to do with being frum, it has only to do with whether your MOTHER was Jewish when you were conceived and born or not!
Just because some Chasidim look down on you if you don’t follow their ways whether you are frum or not, even if you are Yeshivish, Modern Orthodox or Heimish, it doesn’t mean that what they say is true or has any basis in the Torah. It is only their opinion on the subject. We don’t need to hear a Satmar’s on any other’s opinion on whether a person is Jewish or not, or even if they are Frum or not! It is NOT up to them to judge or decide!
As far as A Mamin’s comment is concerned. Right now I am still ashamed of the Satmar community how they are supporting the convicted molester Weberman. So don’t expect me to say anything encouraging about them. What was currently exposed about that community absolutely proves what Morah has said about what her sil’s boyfriend has experienced.
Morah, That is so sad. Maybe your sil can explain to her boyfriend that what the Satmar believes in is NOT necessarily the Jewish belief or what the Torah states. The Satmar has their interpretation but that does NOT make it the LAW! In addition, just because he is no longer frum that doesn’t mean he should find the answers to his questions. She can help him get those answers.
Ima, Mazal Tov, may all the lost sheep find their way home and find their zevugim to build their own homes for the future!
WOW, Panim el Panim. Give a little get a little. There are two sayings that apply. Last week might have been “out of sight out of mind”. This week might be “absence makes the heart grow founder”. Either way, mommy is mommy and don’t you forget it!
WOW, you can just tell him that you respect his need for privacy and space but you are not used to having him away from home and because you all love him so much and miss him while he is away and are so happy to see him when he comes home, you would love to spend a little time with him. Let him know that you don’t want to pressure him, but you would like him to think about giving you some quality time on the weekends. It is not the amount of time he gives you that counts, just the quality of the time you spend together. You might even ask him if he is surprised that you all miss him when he is gone?
WOW, since your husband now knows where the bully is learning, it would not be an unusual situation for him to wonder off to that yeshiva and have a one on one with him. It could be a beneficial conversation for both parties. Your husband as the father of the one who was damaged and the boy himself who had decided to move up and take life a little more seriously. This boy has an obligation to do a bit of “tikun” and has an obligation to ask mechilah. Your husband can offer him the opportunity. He can suggest to this boy who is a bit more mature than he was at the time, that if he so chooses he can a write a letter to your son at “your address” asking mechila from him and explaining to him how wrong he was for doing what he did. Your husband does NOT have to tell him everything that is happening to your son other than his rishus hurt him very badly and no one knows how deeply ones actions can hurt another nor how long lasting or far reaching those hurts can manifest. On the other hand, no one knows the true healing powers of real teshuva and how long lasting and far reaching that can manifest either.
On the other hand, no one knows how far reaching and long lasting the effects of NOT asking mechila and not doing teshuva for ones actions can manifest either. This my friend is a well known fact and a true dilemma. Your husband would be doing this young man a favor, helping him to clear this up early in his life.
WOW, in coaching we have a term called POV, point of view or perspective. Of course you love him, but you have to realize that from his “point of view” or POV things are skewered. He doesn’t think as a mature adult, as you do. He sees things from a bit of a “twisted” perspective.
If you tell him “i can’t see your eyes, could you cut your bangs” you just want to see his beautiful eyes. He doesn’t her or understand that. He might hear “oh she is ashamed of my long hair, that’s all she cares about”. When you tell him you want him to come home at a reasonable hour he might hear “I want to control your every move”. Even though your words and meaning is very clear to you, he is neither hearing what you say the way you say them nor interpreting them the way you mean them.
So the mantra remains “I love you no matter what”. The best you can do is offer good advice. “you really are a smart young man, and it makes me sad that you would not choose to chase every opportunity to get a good education. I realize that you are not thinking about the future as I am and that you are making your own choices. I also realize that you will have to live later on with the outcome of the choices you make today, and that might make your life more difficult in the future. I am the parent that’s what we do, we worry about the future. My heart breaks that you are struggling now, and my heart breaks because you might struggle in the future as well. But I love you no matter what.”
Yes, I hear you loud and clear. But that is part and parcel of the parsha. There are going to be highs and lows. And just as you can be sure there are lows, remember that there will be highs and there is always hope. So please hold on to that. Also to the fact that he is not as dumb as he seems when he gives in to his Yetzer Horah. You have seen him make some better choices even within the sad scheme of things. So just please hang in there.
One cannot consider what happened a generation ago. There are so many Frum therapists today, and I might add who are extremely necessary, that what applied a generation ago no longer applies. When I counsel a couple, even as a life coach, the first thing I tell them is this: “I am neither on your side nor yours. I am on the side of the marriage, that is the important focus here, the survival and success of the marriage, so lets make that our goal and work in that direction”.
If I see that either one is truly hung up and can’t move forward I will suggest that they seek other forms of therapy because they are not at a stage where “coaching” is enough or will be effective. Only people who truly want to improve and make their marriage work can actually improve in a “coaching” arena because they have individual goals and truly want to work on themselves rather than force change on their partner.
Different therapies work for different people according to their issues and needs. One first needs to recognize that they indeed have issues. Then one needs to recognize that they NEED help. Those are the first two hurdles to getting better. Once they have managed those two huge hurdles they can navigate some true work towards a better life. No one can help anyone that doesn’t want to help themselves. Therapy is not a miracle. It is hard work and one has to be willing to engage and take a good hard look either in the past, the present or towards the future. Sometimes one needs to take a good hard look in the mirror and get to know the person who is staring back at them. These are not easy tasks for many people.
And for some people it is just a matter of needing someone to talk to, relieving themselves of questions and ideas that have plagued them and bothered them but they have no one to discuss these things with. It can be a huge burden on someone’s mind and heart when they just don’t have anyone to talk to.
WOW, anger fades much faster than pain. Do you think he would be more hurt than angry if he thought you were ignoring him or you didn’t care? There is a fine line between giving a kid space and not caring or ignoring. Sometimes for a child that line gets blurred.
Lets face it he needs you. He doesn’t want to, and he for sure doesn’t know he does nor does he want to admit it. But if you stop reaching out, even if he shows anger, which by the way he probably doesn’t even mean, he might think you stopped caring. Would you rather take the bite, or would you rather him feel you stopped caring to feed him?
WOW, you known him best and so you will have to use your own judgment just how to make the approach…”Chaim you haven’t mentioned whether you have found a job or a dorm yet. I just want you to know that if you would like my help doing research for either just let me know and I will do my best to assist”
Or you might want to go a different way. “Chaim, I haven’t heard anything from you in regard to either a dorm or a job.. Are you having trouble deciding what you want to do?” Whichever way you choose, be calm and speak in a very non confrontational manner.
WOW, you have to open the path. When he wanted you to remind him about the tefilin he found a way to tell him. Open a path and let him find his own way to travel on it.
BTW, I just peeked into the other topics on the CR list. I have been following the trial from the beginning of the story. I want to point out to all of you the importance of listening to your kids and supporting them through their very, very difficult journeys. The outcome of this story would have been a totally different one, had the family not supported her so fully and completely. Lets all learn a lesson from this. Our children are our children no matter what, no matter their choices, if we don’t love them and protect them, we are basically throwing them to the wolves.
WOW, you can only help him find jobs if he wants you to. You can ask in such a way “Remember how you asked me to “help” remind you to put on tefilin when you chose to do that for a while, would you be interested in me helping you find a job?, If there is anything you would like me to help you with, or you want to talk to me about. I’m here for you and ready to listen”.
In that way you are NOT forcing your ideas on him, or pushing jobs on him, you are just asking him if he is interested in your help.
Syag, you can ask the moderators to put you in touch with me, or ask Rabbi Yanky Horowitz. I have been posting on his website this past week because of the trial. You can also ask Avi Fishof from Home Sweet Home or Twisted Parenting. He can put you in touch with me. You can also write the editor of Adkanenough.com. Let me know if you write to her, I will let her know to give you my email address.
WOW, you truly need the patience of a saint to deal with this parsha. You showed your sons that you love them and honor them, and that you are fierce to stand up for them. You showed both your sons and their chevra that you are worthy of their respect. Everything happens for a reason. Let Hashem run the show. Don’t push it, do your job and watch it play out. Maybe the sehlichim or doing their job as well.
Syag, I left the coffee room for very obvious reasons. I peeked in and found this thread months ago and offered my help. Honestly, I am not interested in debating anyone. If you need my help I will tell you how to find me.
WOW, I think it is best that you just follow his lead right now. The key point in your story is that he took a break from his friends and he ASKED you to remind him to put on the tefillin.
Even though he stopped already and went back to the friends, who you said got into the Dorm Yeshiva (?), he did relate to you, communicate with you, trust you, etc. That is a step in the right direction. Baby steps are good no matter how long they last, they are good!
Great, so maybe he is thanking Hashem!!! When does he start?
Maybe he is praying that he will get into the Dorm Yeshiva with his friends. Don’t say anything. If you make a fuss over it he will stop.
Syag, let me be clear. I never said anyone should write a hate filled letter. I said they should write about what happened to them and why they are hurting, or quote from the Torah and Talmud to give over Tochecha.
WOW, you can’t know what the kids will choose to do until you give them the option. They never before had this option. Never before did anyone encourage them to write to anyone in authority especially any Frum person in authority and truly let them know how they feel and why they went off the derech. Now is their chance. And maybe after they write to him, they might find the courage to write to those who actually did the deed. No one ever, told them or even allowed them to speak from their hearts and target their pain, anger and frustration.
WOW, everything you do, you do for your kids. If it makes a difference to your kids well being and it makes them feel vindicated then do it. No one knows what will happen to the other party. Will it ignite something in him. Will he listen to the mussar maybe not, maybe he might learn from it. Even a gadol can learn from a child. Or he can ignore it. That is not your issue. What he learns from this lesson is not really your concern. Your concern is what your children learn from this lesson. That is called parenting!
Zahavasdad, no you can’t separate the kids in this, WOW said one of his chevrah came to help the younger son. This is a group issue with both sets of kids and they all have to be in this discussion of what to do and how to go about it. It is a lesson for all of them and maybe and opportunity they all need to undo or heal some of the issues of the past!
What would you have said to your “bully” if you had the opportunity? What do you want to say to this one? Let everyone write their own letter to him. They have all learned Torah in the past. They are NOT amharatzim. They can still look things up and bring examples. They can sit with your husband and find the examples they are looking for. Your oldest certainly knows how and where to find them. This is a very productive way of teaching this Talmid Chochom a lesson and allowing all these kids to do something productive and positive with their pain!
WOW, your job is to be a parent and to protect your children! Just because this guy knows how to learn, that doesn’t mean that he is applying his learning to real day to day life. Where does it say in the Torah that he has a right to hit someone else’s child?
Just because your RAV is afraid to speak to him, and just because your RAV didn’t tell you to go to the police, that doesn’t make him right either. Did he tell you NOT to go to the police? If he didn’t tell you NOT to go to the police then the choice is still in your hands.
It is NOT your concern whether or not the police love this kind of thing. This man loves this kind of thing, going around forcing his way of thinking on others. This is NOT chinuch, this is bullying. A True ben Torha, who wants to teach kids Torah, would go over to a young boy and say “Excuse me, tateleh, may I have a word with you? It pains me to see bochurim acting in such a manner not befitting the kovod of Shabbos. You probably didn’t realize that you were doing something that was not kovodik to Shabbos. I am sure you didn’t realize, but throwing rocks is not something that one does on Shabbos because…….The Gemara says……Do you have any questions about this? I will be happy to learn the sugya with you or answer any questions you have about this inyan. I see that you are a fine boy and you wouldn’t do anything to desecrate the Shabbos, so I felt a need to come and let you know about this. Have a good Shabbos.
That is how a true Ben Torah would handle such a situation if he wanted to give Musar or tochecha. That man was nothing but a bully, and he deserves a taste of his own medicine. Your job WOW is to make sure your children grow up feeling loved and cared for, and know that what they learn in Yeshiva and in your home applies to them and every other Jew.
Maybe you should call all the boys to a meeting, both the younger boys and the older boys and let them know that it is your intention to go to the police and they would have to go with you as witnesses and give their statements. Why not to them as a group. In that way, you will ease your son’s embarrassment in front of his friends because YOU are showing ALL of them that this man was a bully and he did NOT represent TORAH in any way shape or form, and that you are willing to prove it by going to the police. You are also showing that to your older son and his friends. If your Bar Mitzva boy decides to go to the police then do it. If he decides to let it go, then say “OK, I will let it go this time, but I will let him know that if he ever comes within 5 feet of you again I will call the police on him. Maybe even consider getting a restraining order against him to keep him away from your son.” And then follow through. Let him know that since he didn’t think he did anything wrong, and he didn’t apologize, if he ever goes near your son again you will call the police.
I believe this will help both your sons have a different perspective on things.
WOW, You are right it is these kind of idiots that push kids OFF. But more so, they are NOT practicing Yiddishkeit, they are practicing their own selfish need for power. No one has the right to touch your child. You tried to go the nice route by allowing him to as mechila from your child. He refused. Now it is time to follow the Law because this man believes he is above the law. He believes he is and ENFORCER. He is nothing but a bully, and the only way to stop a bully is by teaching him a lesson. I am sure this is NOT the first time he has done this nor will it be the last. He did not hesitate to attack your son and he stood firm in his position NOT to ask mechilah.
It is time to report this to the authorities and keep the rest of the children in the neighborhood safe. He must be stopped. Please remember he didn’t he slap him on the hand, he knocked him to the ground. That is assault. Be a hero for your children. You don’t have to follow through with charges and court afterward, but this man needs to be hauled off to jail.
I don’t believe that any school of that kind will take full responsibility for him or for where he chooses to be. If he is willing to go it is worth a shot, but don’t put too much hope or faith in it. Every positive step is still a positive step, but every step is still a work in progress and not a solution.
WOW, so true.
Here is probably something you don’t know or realize either. The shelichim are probably connecting to some of the other boys as well. Keep breathing and let them do what they know how to do best. You do your part, let them do their part, and keep praying that your son does his!
But here is a question for you, when you say “yeshiva with a dorm” how does he actually fit in to that? I can see that happening with a place like Home Sweet Home and Avi Fishoff because those boys want to change and it is NOT a yeshiva, but he doesn’t want to sit and learn, he doesn’t want to be a part of that life, so what Yeshiva doesn’t require learning and being shomer Torah and Mitzvos? Please don’t convince yourself that it is what he needs right now and set yourself up for a huge disappointment.
WOW, The right sheliach will keep coming back no matter how many times he is pushed away! When a person sees that one has that kind of determination, they at least give them the courtesy of a conversation.
CRGO, you must be the glue that holds us all together 🙂
“But B’H, once the music started, everything started to melt away. Wish you were all there…”
WE WERE!!! You were too busy to notice B”H!
I am so happy for you. I just want to point out that your son came because he loves you and the family. It doesn’t matter what he wore. The point is that he came, and his friend was interested enough and supportive enough to come as well. They didn’t do anything to take away from the simcha, they enhanced the simcha by respecting all of you enough to show up! B”H.
Look at it this way. If you had a child in the IDF, he would have come in uniform and he would also NOT have matched the others so the pictures would also not have been so “uniform”. In a few years he will look at the pics and say “Mom, I look like an idiot I can’t believe you LET me come dressed like that!” and then you can all have another good laugh about it.
Daniela, no one is given a gun until they are well trained in discipline and following orders. If they can’t “mentch” out in the army, they don’t walk away with deadly weapons!!!!
Please use some common sense here.
SMC, the point is, right now, the main influence right now is from his friends!!! And these friends do NOT care about their education, health, welfare, safety or future. Going back to school, even a secular school, would give him an opportunity to focus on goals and values, get an education and look towards the future. It will give him a “seder hayom”, structure and a sense of discipline that he is currently missing. If you weight the pros and cons of a secular or moder school and what he is doing right now and where he is heading right now, the choice is obvious.
WOW, Mazal Tov on your Simcha, Today is a huge test for you as it is for K’lal Yisroel. As the rockets and the threat of war hangs over head, what can one rely on? Only their faith, bitachon and emunah in Hashem. B”H, our Chayalim and Chayalos are trained well. They are confident and strong and they have one extra advantage, Yiddishe Seichel. In addition, Hashem is with them as are the teffillos of millions of people who pray for their safety and the safety of Eretz Yisroel.
In the mean time, life goes on in Israel. That is the most amazing part of the Israeli and Jewish spirit. Jewish life goes on no matter the threat no matter the circumstance. One takes every precaution, as the Torah requires, but life goes on.
So do what you need to do and understand that each child is going through their own challenge right now. Your “simcha boy” is worried about what might happen on his big day. Your oldest is possibly feeling guilt and confusion right now. Should he give in to his feelings of love and loyalty to his family or should he be the big kahuna to his friends and keep up the uncaring persona he has been showing these past few weeks? If he cleans up and comes to the Simcha, will it demean his stance? If he doesn’t show up will his family hate him? Who knows what is going on in his mind? Maybe it would be ok to tell him everyone deserves a day off. Maybe he could take a day off of his “normal” routine and just chill with the family. Maybe that would help him decide without going through all that emotional inner turmoil.
WOW, at this point you really “need” to give yourself permission to stay out of the line of fire. You are entitled to a break and entitled to enjoy your simcha. In addition your child is entitled to have his mother be there fully and completely for HIS big simcha and be as understanding and caring with him about his needs, concerns, nerves, excitement, etc., as your oldest son. For these few days the spotlight needs to move away from your eldest and unto the star of the show. Please don’t lose focus and just try to let whatever happens with your oldest not effect you. Please try and implement the tools we tried to teach you to “ignore” the hurt and not allow ANYTHING to affect you or ruin this simcha for you. YOU are in control of your own actions. YOU are in control of your own emotions and if YOU choose NOT to let anything ruin this for you or your current shining star, then it won’t. Nothing is going to change in the few days that this is happening. Your oldest will just have to “buck up” and deal with whatever comes his way at this time.
Don’t look to get into arguments with him, don’t look to bribe him into doing anything for you. Give him his options and his choices and he will do what he chooses to do. He will regardless of what you say or do. So please make it clear and dummy proof “Chaim, I hope you know that it would mean so much to your brother if you would be there for him at the simcha. No matter what, you are still his brother and he loves you very much. It will hurt him each time he looks at his pictures and he will be reminded that you were not there. We will all feel that an important piece of our family is missing. Please try to remember when you were his age, and you were in his position, what you would have felt like if someone important to you would not have come.”
WOW, Ima had a very interesting suggestion, if it is possible to give him his own room, then there is something worth discussing with him.
On the other hand, he might just want to stay away from the crowd in the house and everyone’s opinion of him. He KNOWS that everyone is disappointed in him. If I knew that everyone was watching my every move I would also be uncomfortable. So that is more of a reason for him to stay away.
We both understand the sadness that everyone feels, for very good reason. However, it is important to remind them that they didn’t come from near and far to commiserate with you in your sadness and issues. They came to be mishtatef in your simcha and you certainly do deserve to enjoy a simcha after the past half year of stress and pain. If there is any way that you can relay that message and let them know that WE ALL need to daven and have enough bitachon and emunah that Hashem will watch over him while he goes through this dark journey of his. After all it says that Hashem watches of children and fools and right now he fits into both categories.
On another note, just because he doesn’t want to be frum, that doesn’t mean that he shouldn’t have an education. Would you consider rethinking having him go into a secular or modern school? Maybe when he sees the responsibilities other kids take on vis a vis their education and preparing at this young age for entering the military in just a year or two, it might give him food for thought. Real life is NOT about “hanging” out and being a nobody. Real life, especially in Israel is truly about being “somebody”! Every single Jew counts. Every single Chayal in E”Y is special. He or she are trained to protect and defend their own. They are infused with confidence and self-esteem. They learn to have pride in themselves, in their fellow Jews and in their country. And when they finish their service, they don’t fall by the wayside. Once a soldier in the IDF always a soldier for life. You are part of something huge, you are never alone, and you always have your soldier brothers and sisters and your own self respect.
That is what the other half do. The other half that are NOT sitting and learning. These are the two choices one has. You are either on the religious side of the coin or you are on the secular side of the coin. These are issues one needs to think about in Israel. Of course there are also religious chayalim but I am speaking in more general terms and in the realities of the situation.
WOW, that sounds great and encouraging. I hope you feel my HUG across the ocean!!
WOW, how did your husband react to that logic? It is very sound advice and something that I have been trying to relay to you about typical and basic respect and consideration. The choices he is making for himself are his and he expects you to respect them which you are. On the other hand, he doesn’t have to rub them in your face, nor does he have to be disrespectful to you or the rest of the family. Respect is NOT exclusive to the religious or Torah world. Respect is universal and without it, there is very little hope for mankind in general.
Please continue with your simcha plans and have much nachas from the source of the simcha and the entire mishpacha. You can’t let this child or these issues deter the joy you feel from the other child’s accomplishment or growth. Each child deserve’s their own attention and kudos. Each child deserves their own moment in the spotlight and their own applause. Make sure that they get it. You must put your trepidation aside. You can’t worry whether your OTD decides to show up or not. It would be very special if he cleaned up his act and realized his position in the family and made an appearance, even more so if he participated as a mentch, but the simcha will go one with or without him. Please understand that there are many simchas that take place when kids are away in yeshiva in Eretz Yisroel and parents just can’t afford to keep sending tickets back and forth to bring kids in or the Yeshivas themselves don’t feel that it is good enough reason to allow the bochurim to leave yeshiva and go home to participate. Yet the simcha continues with or without the missing child. In addition, when a family member is ill c”v, the simcha must go on regardless.
In this case your son is considered a choleh, that’s true, but he also has the choice whether to show up and act appropriately, show up and behave inappropriately or not show up at all. Whatever he chooses, it is out of your hands and not within your control. What is in your control is to be mesameach regardless and to make this the best simcha it can be for your other children. They deserve no less!!! And YOU and YOUR spouse deserve no less. So if you can accept this little bit of advice from me, put this issue to the side and enjoy, enjoy, enjoy. Take your nachas from wherever you can and enjoy those moments. Bask in the glory of that nachas and don’t allow the sadness of the reality of your life leak in. You must count your blessing and not look at your loss. Now is the time to count your blessings and realize that simcha breeds simcha. So put a smile on your face and open your heart wide and let the good feelings of happiness and joy take over.
As far as a dormitory for your son, that is a nice idea if he would agree to do that. I don’t hold out much hope that he will agree. I would try Kesher, Neve and Ner Yaakov because they are more geared to American boys in pain. It is very possible that he would connect with these most caring Rebbeim who truly understand the parsha and have tremendous heart and soul invested in these boys. He might recognize their honesty and mesiras nefesh and that might make all the difference in the world to him. There is a manhig I believe from Kesher that is called “Kahuna”. I am not sure, I met him when he came to NY. The boys really love him. He says he is not a Rav, but he has a following.
Most important of all, I am so happy to hear that you and your son spoke. That is the most important thing of all. Communication is the key to all relationships and keeping the lines of communication open is the most important thing you can possibly do. How did that happen? That is the most important piece of information that you can relay to the rest of the readers.
WOW, I see you are confused and torn about what I said.
WOW, I am not sure that “ignoring him” is the wrong thing to do. We have touched upon the issue of being considerate and responsible before. You have gone out of your way to show him generosity and kindness and to look away from his bad behavior. There is a difference when a child displays pain and when a child displays indifference or chutzpah.
Just because he is making different choices that are not in line with being religious that does NOT absolve him of his obligation to be a “mentch”. That has nothing to do with being religious or not, that just has to do with being a good human being. The fact that you went out of your way to do something nice for his friends and he has no appreciation for that or anything else just shows how he is manipulating you and using you. It might be time to take a step back a little and cool off.
There is no doubt that you love him and you should always let him know that you love him no matter what. But that does not mean that it is ok for him to treat you like a shmatah or to not be accountable for his actions. And just because you are upset with the way that he is behaving towards you that does NOT mean that you don’t love him. Your love doesn’t depend on him being a good boy and his love for you should NOT depend on what he can manipulate out of you.
Because you love him so much you were willing to do your best to understand his pain and his issues at this time. And even though you might not fully understand them, you chose to do whatever you can to help him through his journey. Even though you do not agree with his choices and even though you don’t approve of what he is wearing or doing, you still looked away and even purchased the items he wanted for him. Again even though it is against your own way of life and you wouldn’t have done it before and wouldn’t do it for the other children. On the other hand, just because he is pulling away from the way of life you raised him in, or he is making different choices in his lifestyle that doesn’t mean that he should love you any less, nor treat you with any less respect than before.
I would suggest what I have suggested in the past and that is to NOT make it so easy for him to disrespect you. Why does he come home every couple of days? To grab a shower, pick up a change of clean clothing and go out again? Well I suggested to you earlier that you don’t provide laundry service. Get him a hamper in his room and until he is home and ready to work “with you” on being a mentch, which would include either going to school or working there is no reason for you to provide service. If he is old enough to stay out all night and feels he is old enough to take care of himself then he should be taking care of himself. Let him be responsible to launder his own clothes and take care of his own things.
That is how I would suggest you ignore him. If he stood in front of me I would say hello, but I would not try to start a conversation. If he started shouting at me, I would turn my back and walk away. But I would also say “I love you very much, but I don’t have to put up with this behavior and lack of respect.”
WOW, if I may just add one word of advice. I found that if you ignore those posters who just choose to pick, either they will go away on their own because you have NOT engaged with them or others will ask them to leave.
You do have the choice to answer or to not answer. You do have the choice to work with those who you feel are truly working with you and offering you the kind of support you need and ignore those who are just trying to stir the pot. If a poster starts asking “WOW, why aren’t you answering my questions?” someone will eventually answer them, that she doesn’t have to, she already had this discussion with someone else, read the entire thread, or she came here for chizuk, not for a third degree.” YOU are NOT obligated to answer every poster on this thread, although you have been extremely gracious in trying to do just that.
I wish you and your entire family much hatzlocha during this trying time and in the future.
WOW, it saddens me that you have made this choice but I fully understand it. I too walked away months ago because of posters who did not realize how insensitive they were being. It is difficult to be as sensitive as an anonymous cyber persona than a “real” person. I don’t know why I took a peak just at the time that you posted, but I am glad that I did, and if you noticed I have not gone into other posts.
At this time, I would like to offer you another option. If you need me, you can ask the moderators to give you my email address or you can ask Avi at Twisted parenting to give it to you. Please contact me when necessary and I will try and support you as best as I can. I would also ask you to please reconsider and not allow yourself to be pushed away when there are so many really sensitive and caring people who have actually helped and offered you true chizuk. I know that it hurts, even though no one can see that it does. But if being here has helped you, then it has served a very good purpose and one that should continue and not stop because of individuals that do not have the proper perspective or understanding.
When someone is in pain, others need to understand the sensitivity of the issues and how vulnerable a person can be. If an OP comes here for chizuk, the last thing a person needs to do is poke,prod and push. If you feel you can be helpful then do so in a sensitive manner. Pushing your point of view or agenda on a person who is stressed and feeling so much pain is NOT helpful.
In addition, if one is not being received as intended, then maybe it is the poster who should “bother” to read through the history of the thread to truly understand what the OP has already gone through, what questions she has already answered and what helped or didn’t. Coming into this conversation in the middle of a long thread without this history or back up knowledge can cause misunderstanding and frustration. You can also bring up old hurts and wounds that are already being worked on for resolution, and touch a nerve that is too sensitive for the poster to reveal.
Just because we want to try and help someone does NOT mean that we have the RIGHT to know everything or give them the third degree. A person will share whatever they are comfortable sharing. Playing at psychoanalyzing them with pointed questions and then some “insight” into why they are not answering them is counter productive and useless. If you choose to play at being a therapist then you need to learn how to react when your client clams up and shuts you down. The point being that no one HAS to offer help and the OP does not HAVE to engage in anyone who wants to play that game with her. She also should not be put into a position to defend her actions. How does that help?
I believe that when a person does a chessed such as give chizuk to someone in pain, they need to understand how that person needs that chessed. Whether or not she needs to be supported or whether or not she needs to be challenged. Jt is up to us to give them the Chessed they need in the manner that they need it or we aren’t really doing a chessed.
This thread has served a purpose of giving chizuk to the op for six months of a devastating situation in her life. The posters have been able to help her through extremely painful situations by allowing her the opportunity to vent at any time, and giving their thoughts and ideas based on their true understanding of the subject matter and their various experiences in the parsha as well as their varied professional backgrounds.
For those who have tired of this thread or see no purpose in it, you have the option to not peak in and not engage in it. But to suggest that it be closed because it no longer serves your need, or serves your purpose is selfish. If the thread is still helpful and is serving the need of the OP and others who have come here for the same chizuk then it is worthy of the space it consumes. Please understand that she cannot get that same chizuk from those anonymous posters anywhere else. It is only here at the YW CR that this particular OP can find these particular shelichim to assist her and give her the chizuk she needs.
In case you haven’t noticed the OP did say that she has been in contact with therapists. However, please note that therapists don’t answer on the spot and are not available 24/7 or whenever someone here happens to notice that a question or request is posted. Help from a therapist is limited to the 45-50 minutes spent for that appointment and for the amount that is either covered by insurance or what the client/patient can afford to pay. In addition, there are many people who have gone through the same situation that have better insight than a therapist and no one should rely on one source alone when they are in so much pain and need so much chizuk. It is extremely difficult to just hold on to a week’s worth of pain and issues until your next appointment.
Having said that, please understand that neither I, nor any other poster here is against the OP seeing a therapist or receiving chizuk from any number of other sources, which she is doing. However, for as long as the YW, CR is willing to keep this thread going I am willing to give as much chizuk and support to this OP as I can and will do my best to help her through this nisayon. If anyone feels they can’t do it, then I am sure there is no hard feelings towards them, and they are welcome to either back out or take a break.
I have chosen on many occasion to NOT ENGAGE in other threads. It is a choice that I made for my own reasons that I won’t go in to. Everyone can make that choice for themselves. If you don’t feel comfortable here, or feel that you can’t help we understand that, but to suggest that this thread be closed is wrong on so many levels that I just won’t go into it.