aries2756

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  • in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182532
    aries2756
    Participant

    Ana Mia, in your first post you said tat you had not read through the three or four months worth of 25 pages of posts before you joined this thread. Maybe it would have helped had you done just that. Coming in to this in the middle of the issues unaware what has already been discussed and tried only serves to aggravate the situation.

    Judging the op for what you believe her obligations were or are, and asking questions that have already been asked and answered serves no purpose other than to stir a pot that others keep trying to keep from boiling over. I am sorry to say that it is you that needs to dig a little deeper and actually take the time to read through this thread from beginning to end to understand why your suggestions and posts are not being well received. Although your intentions my be in the right place your actions via comments are uncalled for.

    If you want to learn something to give chizuk to your “friend”, I am sure that you will find something helpful among these 26 pages. If you are looking to give chizuk to the op, then please investigate and understand the whole picture before making a judgement call in the middle of the story.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182531
    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, my point is this. If you are posting just for the accolades of feeling or being right, and you need to be right, and that will make you stop and consider however the negative effect your post is having rather than the positive one you intended, then I will tell you that you are right. Your original thought was well intended but maybe not thought out to the end of its path. Being right doesn’t necessarily make you happy nor solve the issue, it just gives you that gold star for being right.

    So if this particular poster has a need to be right and she will continue the exchange until someone tells her that she is right, I will do it now and end the babble which will only lead to more pain.

    I hope that you can recognize my intention here and not fault me for choosing sides which I did not. The only side here is to help you through this nisayon. Please read my post again.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182530
    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, my point is this. If you are posting just for the accolades of feeling or being right, and you need to be right, and that will make you stop and consider however the negative effect your post is having rather than the positive one you intended, then I will tell you that you are right. Your original thought was well intended but maybe not thought out to the end of its path. Being right doesn’t necessarily make you happy nor solve the issue, it just gives you that gold star for being right.

    So if this particular poster has a need to be right and she will continue the exchange until someone tells her that she is right, I will do it now and end the babble which will only lead to more pain.

    I hope that you can recognize my intention here and not fault me for choosing sides. Please read my post again.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182524
    aries2756
    Participant

    Ana Mia is it really necessary to pick the scab off the wound? What is the point of this psych ping pong? The point of this post was to give chizuk to the op not to prove how smart or right we are or can be. I got the point of your post, it was sharp, unfortunately it was hurtful to the op so it wasn’t received in the manner that you had hoped. Instead of taking a step back and realizing that the op is not in a matzav to accept your style, you choose to be offended and fight for the right to be right. So be right. How does that help? Does it make you feel better that you are right? Does it help the op or her situation or how she handles her pain if you are right?

    A shoemaker does not make the best pair of shoes for himself and a doctor should never try to heal himself. Throwing the situation back into the op’s face because she has a background in psychology is just plain counter productive. This whole exchange is counter productive . I don’t believe that it was your intention to take your conversation with the op down this path, so maybe it is time to step back and re-evaluate.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182510
    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, just remember that you are not alone. You do have a support system. We are here for you, Hashem is right by your side and he is walking at the side of your son as well. Do not be afraid to ask for help. It is a wise person who knows how to ask and how to accept. It is that same person who will eventually be the one being asked and giving the help!

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182505
    aries2756
    Participant

    “Unfortunately, it only points to the painful fact that somehow, something is terribly wrong with how we are carrying over our yiddishkeit to the next generation.”

    WOW, I so humbly agree with you.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182503
    aries2756
    Participant

    “How do I ‘not allow myself to feel hurt’, as you said? I don’t react angrily to him bc of the hurt, but I can’t erase the hurt.”

    You remind yourself that it is NOT him speaking to you it is his “VERY SICK” Yetzer Horah, who has kidnapped your son for the time being. It is no different than any other choleh. A sick anorexic child who refuses to eat also has the yetzer horah controlling her or his actions to not eat. Could you understand that any easier? Your son is NOT being controlled right now by his pure and good neshoma, it has been taken over by his yetzer horah and the only way to fight evil is with goodness. Evil hates goodness, and the more you ignore its evil ways and actions and throw goodness back in its face it loses its power.

    So when the anger and hurt is thrown like fire at you to burn you, you put up the shield and remind yourself “THIS is NOT my son speaking this is the Yetzer Horah trying to come between my son and me, trying to destroy our relationship so that he will be so ashamed to face me later. I will NOT allow that to happen.”

    WOW, I didn’t say it was easy, I said it was necessary. I am here for you to be mechazek you every step of the way, as I am sure everyone here on this thread is willing to do for you.

    “And as far as keeping him ‘safe and healthy’, he doesn’t let me. He almost NEVER eats anything I cook at home, only junk food.”

    His job is to do what he chooses to do, YOUR job is to do what you know is best for him and that is to be the same mother to him as you are to the rest of the children. YOU keep him safe with YOUR tefilos with YOUR tears, with YOUR brachos, with YOUR kavanos, with YOUR bitachon and emunah and with YOUR love. That is YOUR job. YOU can only do what is humanly possible for you to do. YOU cannot make the choices for HIM, YOU can only make the choices for you. You can choose to go to Kever Rochel and cry for him, You can choose to go to the Maaras Hamachpeilah and daven for him. YOU can choose to go to the Kotel and put in a kvitel for him. YOU can choose to be mispalel from your sefer Tehillim to keep him safe.

    As far as him going back to school, that is HIS responsibility and allow him to handle it his way. B”H, he is able to see some form of negative aspect on the part of his friends. B”H he can still distinguish between the good and bad in them and he doesn’t view them as faultless or blameless. This is a good sign but not one that you need to point out to him, it is quite enough that he can still recognize for himself. Keep the snacks handy for him to grab and go, maybe some breakfast bars or bottled coffee or choco. He will know that you had him in mind without talking about it. Things don’t necessarily have to be spoken out loud. It is OK to have an unspoken language between the two of you.

    For instance, if you do choose to buy him the cigarettes even though you fear him getting addicted and it will affect his health, you can leave it in his room for him, maybe under his pillow in a bag, or in a tied bag on his bed (so his brothers won’t see it) with a note saying “this is for outside the house, I fear for your health therefore I don’t approve, but I recognize that it is important to you at this time”. This is what I would call an unspoken language. Personally I have a hard time giving cigarettes because I truly believe that is a gateway drug, but if you choose to do it, then that is a way that you can do it.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182494
    aries2756
    Participant

    The important thing to understand is to always show him love and NOT anger and aggravation. HE is going through what HE is going through which is separate from what YOU and YOUR husband are going through. HE has HIS pain and YOU and YOUR husband have YOUR pain. Each of you have to learn how to deal with your own individual pain in your own way without hurting each other more in the process. You can only be hurt if you allow yourselves to be hurt. You are in charge of your own happiness and if you pin your happiness on someone else, placing them in control of your happiness then you are setting yourself up for additional pain and sorrow. No one is in control of one’s happiness but themselves and anyone who allows someone else to control their happiness is either consciously or subconsciously handing over the control.

    If one understands this then they can control how they react to another person’s “stimulus”. Things happen all around us, every single day, every minute of the day. How we “choose” to respond to any given action is in our own control. If we choose to react positively then we basically take positive control over our portion of the situation. If we choose to react negatively then we are taking a negative control over our portion of the situation. It is up to us which path we “choose” to take and where WE choose to take it.

    For instance, if you see milk spilled all over the kitchen floor you can start yelling at the top of your lungs “WHO spilled the milk all over the kitchen floor?” but the milk will still be on the floor and you will only cause everyone to hide and take cover. However, if you choose to ask “who is going to do the mitzvah of helping me clean up all this milk that is spilled all over the kitchen floor?” the culprit might come out and help you and learn something from the experience.

    By the same token if you react to your son in anger or pain when he comes home and starts yelling at you, you are “choosing” a negative response and it will only lead to another negative reaction from the both of you. Where will that lead you? Only more negative feelings will sprout from these actions. However, if you don’t allow the negative response to lead you……for instance…”Welcome home, there is some food in the kitchen if you are interested, please help yourself.” If he responds negatively you can just say “I see you are tired, not a problem” or “Whatever you choose” and leave it at that. If you get into an argument or respond with a smart remark, you will only have charatah and second guess yourself.

    You can’t have charatah for showing love. There is never anything wrong with showing love. As for feeling that you didn’t show enough love, stop revisiting old stories and reliving the past. There is nothing you can do about what happened yesterday, why worry and keep concerning yourself about what happened five years ago. It is over and there is nothing to do about it. But there is something you can do about today and every minute from this point forward. Put a smile on your face and leave it there. Put your armor on and leave it there. Shield yourself from the remarks and the comments and remind yourself that it is NOT your son nor his neshoma that is saying these things. It is coming from his yetzer horah and his pain. The more you react to it, the more it will fuel the yetzer horah, the more you ignore and show the yetzer horah he can’t win with you, the faster it will stop!

    The most important thing right now is to keep him safe and healthy. And for you both to remember that HE is your SON, your flesh and blood, no matter what. No matter if he is frum or not. No matter if he is Shomer Shabbos or not. He is still YOUR son, a gift from Hashem. That is what is important. YOU might not be his sheliach to bring him back to Yiddishkeit. It might NOT be your mitzva or not your zchus. Hashem might have picked someone else to have that mitzvah and have that zchus. We don’t know but what we DO know is that YOU ARE his parents. That is a given. That is a truth. That is the JOB Hashem did give you and that is the gift that he gave you, the gift of caring for and having the privilege of raising and loving this child. He did NOT come with warranties nor guarantees. Hashem blessed you with this neshoma and gave you the task to watch over him.

    You had hopes and dreams for him. That is normal. In your dreams he follows a path, your path. HE chooses to go down a different path. He was given bechirah just like you and me. He has to make choices for himself. Of course it is our hopes and dreams that our children follow in our path. On the other hand, it is the choice of all the secular Jews that their children follow down their paths. They are just as heartbroken as WE are when their children do NOT follow in their paths and do not adhere to the very lessons that they themselves taught them. This is very normal. WE look upon them like they are poor souls, how dare they judge their children for making this choice? Well look at us, how dare we judge our children for making this choice???? Are we suffering their pain? Are we carrying their burden? Where is our true bitachon and emunah? Do we NOT understand this nisayon? Their nisayon? OUR nisayon?

    Their job is to walk down their own path and to live through their own nisyonos so that they learn who they are, where they belong and why they belong there. Our job is to live through OUR nisyonos, learn who we are, where we belong and why we belong there. Hopefully we will all wind up in the same place. Hopefully, with our emunah and bitachon in Hashem, with our own avodah, tefillah, tzedaka, and hishtadlus we will succeed in our own nisayon and OUR prayers will be answered. Hopefully WE will understand this gift that Hashem gave us and appreciate it no matter what so that we love it so fiercely and with so much power that the love we have will become a shield that will guard them from harm and help them through their cold dark journey to the other side so they able to come out in the warmth and light of Hashem’s Torah and Mitzvos.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182489
    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, one thing you need to understand and make it your philosophy. If you believe in him he will believe in himself. If you give up on him he will give up on himself. This is true no matter who he is and what his potential and abilities are. This is true for parents, mechanchim and Rebbeim. Those who who walk through the life of a child have an obligation to that child and that is to believe in him and to be a great role model for him. One needs to understand that as a role model for each and every child we have the power to either “make them or break them”.

    So if YOU believe him to be lazy he will be lazy. If you believe he can accomplish he will eventually accomplish. Never give up on him or his potential. I am currently reading a book on Rebbetzin Kanievsky, I am getting tremendous chizuk from her. I only had the zchus to meet her twice in person, but her smile and her unique ability to care for each and every person she meets and benches carries with that person for a very long time. She will be with me forever in my heart. The book about her life gives me tremendous insight and chizuk. I believe you can, and anyone can learn many lessons from her.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182486
    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, I understand the Kesher now has a program for Israeli kids as well as American kids. He might just find himself a place for himself there because he can choose which group he fits better in. As far as not having the bus, how are they finding their way to the yeshiva on their own? That is a responsibility they have to work on. Just because they don’t have the convenience of provided transportation should NOT stop them from finding a way to get there on their own. That is the challenge and that is what they have to figure out to show their commitment to the administration. If he does it own his own or he does it together with anyone else or everyone else, he needs to be encouraged to get up and stand up to the challenge. Maybe this is where you husband can take an active role and be the “man to man” example. This might be where he can discuss the challenges in life and how to overcome them. He might be able to “work” with him here instead as seem to be “against” him. This might be an opportunity for them to bond on this issue. However it has to be with positive energy and never in a negative light.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182480
    aries2756
    Participant

    All good points. As they say the best defense is a good “offense”. This seems to be the child’s MO.

    The issue with the school is concerning to me. It is again an issue of accountability and responsibility. The children themselves “chose” this school and yet didn’t take it seriously. It is their responsibility alone to fight for another opportunity to be admitted. Sleeping all day will not get them what they want. That will NOT prove to the administration that they are serious about a second chance. Giving up on the opportunity, will only cause them to blame the “school” for throwing them out and not accept responsibility on their own part for getting themselves thrown out. So the question is how to approach your son and/or his friends by association on how their campaign is coming along and what exactly is their campaign for getting themselves re-admitted? If they truly want something they should have enough determination to go after it. They should be encouraged to pursue it and request from the administration what they need to do in order to get a second chance and then do it.

    How could you or should you approach your son on this subject? Again, if you don’t get the opportunity to speak to him one on one, write him a note telling him that you are concerned about him and his friends and the opportunity that they have missed here. Let them know that anything worth having is worth fighting for, and since they themselves researched and chose this school for themselves they should NOT give up the opportunity of going there. They should do whatever is in their power to fight for a second chance. Everyone deserves a second chance if they are serious enough about fulfilling the opportunity offered. It is up to them to find out what they need to do to get that second chance and then do it. No one can do it for them, they are the only ones that have the power to make this happen. If they don’t pursue it they will blame others for this lost opportunity when in truth they will have no one to blame but themselves.

    WOW, this is a lesson that you can teach them, all of them, without scolding them or speaking down to them. If they fight their way back in and realize that it is actually an opportunity for them and do take it seriously from here on it, they can possibly gain a positive experience to some small degree from the administration and teachers there.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182476
    aries2756
    Participant

    “I’ve been staying mostly quiet because anything I could say is already being said here better than I could say it, but reading this last page I thought of something that I might be able to offer.”

    DH, nope I think what you said was much better than anything I wrote over these past few months!!

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182463
    aries2756
    Participant

    “how can we ever win?” Why do we have to win?????? When you play a game to “win” everyone loses! Stop trying to play the game and just let things happen as they do.

    “Do we have to wait for them to grow up and beome parents before their vision improves?” YES!! As my mother A”H always said, “with the years comes the seichel”. It takes a level of maturity and experience to gain the appropriate knowledge and wisdom.

    WOW, please try and turn a deaf ear to the negativity. Please try to tune out the tantrums as you did when he was two. He is reaching back in time and trying everything he used back then in his bag of tricks to manipulate you. Don’t let your guilt make you feel inadequate or imperfect. On the other hand, no one is perfect but Hashem, so don’t let that shake you up or rock your boat. So what if he has imperfect parents, that is a part of being in the real world. Parents are imperfect, as are children, as are teachers and principals, as are friends and spouses, as are pets and even automobiles. So get on line and fill out a form at the complaint department. See how far it will get you.

    Usually when someone wants to fight the best thing you can do is give in, but not in the way they want. If a child says “your mean” you answer with “you are right”, don’t argue. If a child says “you don’t love me” answer with “if you say so, but remember I never said that”, if a child says “I NEED “x,y & z”, you can answer “that you have to earn it, it is a privilege and not a right” or “I hear that, how do you plan on going about earning that?”

    So he asked you for something you couldn’t give him? Is he a KING? Are you his servant? In the real world people do get disappointed! That doesn’t mean that they aren’t loved, that just means that they can’t always get what they want! That is a part of life, that is a part of growing up, and that is a part of making your own choices. If you choose to live a certain way and make these choices for yourself how do you plan on getting the things you need and want. Hashem is just not going to deliver them to your front door.

    My three year old granddaughter keeps telling me “Bobby I want….” and I say “Honey, I want a million dollars, its just not going to happen” or she will ask me to share something of mine. If she followed the rules ie, behaved and listened nicely to her Mom, I will let her use that item. If she didn’t I will say “Sorry, I can’t share with you right now because you misbehaved and didn’t listen to Mommy, we can try again tomorrow.” I believe the best rule is neither to say “yes” or “no”, just say “I will give it some thought”.

    When we react negatively to a request, the child believes that we rejected it out of hand without giving it due consideration. Even when we react positively, the child believes “that was easy, I should have asked for more” But when we respond with “I will have to think about that”, then in either case no matter what the final decision will be, the child will realize that we gave it the proper thought and consideration and we came to our conclusion by weighing the pros and cons. If that becomes our policy with every request, they will learn NOT to take advantage and will also learn that sometimes they will get what they need or want and sometimes they won’t.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182458
    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, it is as if you are acting out a scenario that so many have already done. He will keep doing as he does and play out his role to the enth degree as so many others have before him and you can only do your part as a mother. Keep telling him you love him!!! Keep sending him encouraging and loving notes!!!! NEVER throw them out!!!! Keep all of those that he returns. If he read them, he filed it away in his mind and his heart. When the time is right you can take them all out and return them to him. You will be able to show him that you were there with him through his journey and that he was never alone. But, you can’t stop a racing train. You can stand aside and watch it pass or you can stand in front and be run down. When you put your heart out there for him to trample on that is exactly what you are doing.

    It is HIS journey!! You can’t pull on the reigns and guide him back onto your own path for him. HE has to walk the path in his own shoes. He has to learn his own lessons. He doesn’t want to hear them from your voice, but he will feel them in your written words. He will take from them what he wants in his own private space and pocket them for when he needs them. Your words are NOT falling on deaf ears or on a stone cold heart, he only wants you to believe that it is. But they are penetrating and will continue to penetrate as long as they are words of love and support.

    “i know that you feel you must try on this new lifestyle for size, but don’t be afraid to discard it if it doesn’t fit! I know that you are on your own journey right now, one that I might not understand, one that frightens me a lot, I fear for your heath, I fear for your safety, I fear for your well being and I fear for your future. I realize that you are only thinking about the moment and living for the moment, I guess that is your job, you are still a kid. But I am the grown up here, the Parent, and I have to be mature and use the common sense that Hashem gave me. You are NOT the first to go down this path and I understand the dangers out there. I understand that you can’t see them. I understand that you don’t believe they exist. I understand that you don’t understand why I am so on edge and afraid for you. It has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with the fact that you are my son, my child, born to me, precious and special to me, a gift from Hashem to me and to Tatty, and I can’t stop loving you nor worrying about you.”

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182451
    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, what choice do you have? As much as it hurts he is going through the typical scenario. As much as it hurts, you are going through the typical scenario. What can you try that others haven’t tried before you? I have suggested this to you before. All you can do is show him love in various ways, one us by writing to him. That is the only way you can relate your feelings to him. “It seems at this time your friends’ feelings and opinions are much more important to you than mine. It hurts me terribly to just sit by and watch you make such bad decisions for yourself. Ones that have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with life, maturity and common sense. It seems that you seemed to have shoved the most important qualities of life, values and self respect to the side in order to fit in and impress others who have given up on themeselves, their own self esteem and potential at growth because of possibly others opinions of them? You play the game of not caring what others think of you by going off to the other extreme. But why is that necessary? That only shows that you do care and you want to do negative things to be up in everyone’s face. If you really didn’t care you would just let what they say slide off your back and continue on your road to meet your own potential and your own goals. You wouldn’t let anything anyone says to you get in your way or in the way of your hope and dreams. No one should have the power to squash and trash someone else’s hopes and dreams. By doing what you and your friends do you give THEM that power to do it to you and then again to others. But when kids STOP giving them the power to destroy them and cut them off at the knees they will stop, they will become powerless!

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182449
    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, I don’t believe in “tough love” I believe in “loving tough”. That means loving hard and strong even though it hurts.

    We can’t control other people only ourselves and we can’t change other people only ourselves, even our own children! The more WE try to control and change them, the more we tug on the rope that binds them to us, the more they pull away. It is only when we give them the slack they think they desperately need or want do they see that it is neither what they truly want nor what they need at all. But this is a learning process both for the child and the parent. This can’t be told to either, it has to be learned from experience.

    It is the strong and loving parent who learns to ease up and let go a little at a time, just enough to allow them to take those independent steps they think they want. It is those parents who allow them to make their own mistakes, no matter how difficult it is to watch and how much it hurts to bear, that will eventually have nachas from the mature adults who learn life lessons from their experiences and dark journeys. Neither parent nor child may end up with what they want at the beginning of the journey, but both will learn to respect, appreciate and love one and other as the unique and special individuals that are, most dear and most important in each other’s daled Amos.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182448
    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, I don’t believe in “tough love” I believe in “loving tough”. That means loving hard and strong even though it hurts.

    We can’t control other people only ourselves and we can’t change other people only ourselves, even our own children! The more WE try to control and change them, the more we tug on the rope that binds them to us, the more they pull away. It is only when we give them the slack they think they desperately need or want do they see that it is neither what they truly want nor what they need at all. But this is a learning process both for the child and the parent. This can’t be told to either, it has to be learned from experience.

    It is the strong and loving parent who learns to ease up and let go a little at a time, just enough to allow them to take those independent steps they think they want. It is those parents who allow them to make their own mistakes, no matter how difficult it is to watch and how much it hurts to bear, that will eventually have nachas from the mature adults who learn life lessons from their experiences and dark journeys. Neither parent nor child may end up with what they want at the beginning of the journey, but both will learn to respect, appreciate and love one and other as the unique and special individuals that are, most dear and most important in each other’s daled Amos.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182437
    aries2756
    Participant

    Did I miss something is he no longer in this new school?

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182412
    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, I disagree, one should never ask there own child to leave their home. It is their child and it is the child’s home as well! That is the worse thing a parent can do to a child and to themselves. First and foremost he is their CHILD and Hashem does not give us this child, this gift, with warrantees. The only reason a parent would need to do something that harsh is if he were a danger to himself or to others and he would need to be institutionalized.

    The “Trade-off” with troubled kids is always “RESPECT”. That is the “key” word, element and bottom line. They are learning to respect themselves and are basically learning to expect respect from others. However, respect is a two way street. It is not enough to respect oneself or to expect it of others there is the other side of the coin and that is also giving respect. When one gives respect it is easy to respond in kind. They themselves will find it easier to respect someone that respects them. That is something that should always be pointed out because they were NOT trained that way. Respect should be a “given”. It should come as easy as breathing. Children are always taught to say “please and thank you” but how many adults are as courteous to children. Many times the radar on manners are turned off. But if you point out to them that they usually had respect for those who showed them respect or they didn’t have difficulty having respect for those who showed them respect, then you are turning them on to a good path and an important “choice” in their dark journey and state of confusion.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182409
    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, about the rest of the jewelry, does he have the money to buy it?

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182407
    aries2756
    Participant

    Yes you do. It is all in how you say it. ” son, the same way you want and expect us to respect your choices, we want and expect you to do the same. If you choose to be mechael Shabbos there is nothing we are going to do about it. We are going to give you the space to make your own choices as painful as they may be to us, and whether we see them as good or bad choices. However, we will not allow you to flaunt them in our face and ruin the menuchas Shabbos for the entire family. These new choices against our beliefs are yours and yours alone to be made in private where it can’t effect the rest of the family. We are also entitled to OUR choices and it is to keep Shabbos in our home without interruptions. You have chosen to do things according to your chevra and here in our home we do things according to our chevra. We expect you to respect that.”

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182405
    aries2756
    Participant

    Brainfreeze is doing what so many therapists are forced to do by the school system, which is to diagnose teens with a disease they can medicate in order to control them! They would prefer to turn them into zombies and keep them under their control, perfect little angels instead of defiant and rebellious individuals making choices WE don’t approve of and we don’t understand.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182401
    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, as far as showing him love is concerned, Soleik is right on the money. The more you give and show the more he has to tuck away for when he needs it. And when the time comes no matter where he is, no matter when it is, he can take it out of his pocket or wherever he has tucked it away and surround himself securely in it.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182400
    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, I don’t see any signs here of bipolar disorder. I see signs of alcohol and or drug abuse. I dont’ see signs of mood swings or going from one extreme to the other.

    Aside from that, I also see a child who has been hurt and that hurt became all consuming. He did not know how to deal with that pain and chose to do what others do thinking that it was the way out out. But he is realizing that it is not and he is confused. Basically he is trying to punch is way out of a paper bag and is still in pain and is still looking for a way out.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182392
    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, I only suggested that she might try to ask a question here because this thread is a safe haven. Not every thread is as safe and as concerned about one’s feelings and needs as we are right here on this thread. There are a lot of bloggers out there with a lot of opinions and self-righteousness and so many that are too quick to judge others. That is why I made the suggestion because if the question and I do mean one question at a time, can be addressed by the caring individuals who have been so helpful to you, then maybe they can help this young adult as well.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182391
    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, someone just asked me this Yom Tov, how do you respond to chutzpadik kids and I told him to ignore them. He said “ignore them” in the times past we used to show them the strap or the stick…..I told him you don’t ignore them in the sense that you let chutzpah slide, you tune them out, look the other way, hum a tune…. show them that you don’t hear them when they are being chutzpadik like you and them are not in the same room or even on the same planet. That you can’t hear their words, that they can’t reach you or penetrate you. Eventually they will learn that they can’t speak that way to you because you have elevated yourself to a higher madreigah and you can only hear them when they speak b’kovod and with derech eretz. What I told this “divorced” parent is this. If you lower yourself to that level and respond in kind, your children will remember every painful or sarcastic remark and it will repeat itself in the tape recorder of their minds and hearts. They will conveniently forget what brought on the remark and their accountability in it. But they will never forget the hurtful response to them. By tuning out to them when they are being chutzpadik you engulf yourself in the protection of your own sense of security whether you sing a song to yourself to tune out the hurtful words, you say tehilim, you daven, whatever. But they are basically talking to an unmovable force and they will eventually stop.

    WOW, you are a safe and easy target. When he starts in on you he is probably drunk and for sure over tired. If you choose not to stop and listen but continue doing what you were doing before he came in and started his tiraid, or become a moving target instead of a sitting duck it would not be so easy for him to attack. If he starts in, say tehillim in your mind, sing a song to yourself and realize that it is NOT your son yelling at you it is his yetzer horah.

    If he tells you that you are “not listening to him” you can choose to respond with “when you speak to me with respect I will show you respect in kind and will listen to you with respect. If you choose to yell at me disrespectfully I don’t have to accept such unacceptable behavior”.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182379
    aries2756
    Participant

    Maybe a Rabbi is NOT the person you need to ask the questions of. Maybe you can ask the question in this safe environment and one of us can see if we have the answers you are seeking.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182370
    aries2756
    Participant

    When one asks a question the person you ask it of has to consider who you are and why you are asking it. An answer can’t just be given like a slap on the face. I has to be given as for example one gives change for a dollar. Does the person need quarters, nickels and dimes or does she need 100 pennies. There are different ways to make change and there are different ways to go about answering a question. There are also different ways to go about changing one’s behavior for that matter.

    Everything must be considered when speaking to another individual especially a vulnerable person, especially one who is searching for answers. As an adult, when another adult asks a question and is on a similar level, one can answer on the same level. If a child asks a question of an adult , an adult must remember that they are NOT on the same level and must answer with compassion and generosity. A yes or no answer may not be sufficient and may not draw that child closer to Hashem nor closer to yiddishkeit. An explanation of the answer or the rule is more appropriate and a mashal might also be more palpable.

    So if a child asks “is this permitted, or what is the rule in this regard?” one must understand where the question is coming from and why it is being asked. The answer must be delivered in such a way that the child can swallow and digest it. Not in a way that the child will shudder from the response as if he /she were burnt by it.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182355
    aries2756
    Participant

    New Kid on the Block, this is NOT a general discussion about Chumras. This was a response to someone who was asking about “if anyone still believed in Torah and if Yiddishkeit is still beautiful”

    There is a Yiddishe Neshoma here on this thread who is so hurt and feels so down that had a need to ask this question. I had a need to respond to it. An honest and sincere response to someone who obviously feels very disconnected. If you disagree, that is your right, but this is NOT the place to have a discussion about it. It is NOT the thread for that, it is however the thread for answering those in pain about their issues and addressing their pain. Do YOU get that? Is it possible for YOU to understand that?

    I have chosen to come back into the CR specifically in this thread to help the OP here with her issue, a very serious and painful one. I have further chosen to stay out of the rest of the CR and the rest of the machlokes and discussions because i found them distasteful and insincere in the past. I have no intention of debating you or anyone else, nor justifying my position or my beliefs to you or anyone else on this subject or any other. So far, we have managed to maintain this thread with the proper respect and sincerity it deserves, because of the subject matter and because of the pain the OP and others reading it and experiencing the same situation are going through. The entire thread has been nothing less than individuals offering sincere advice and chizuk and those who have entered have had the decency to understand this was NOT a general discussion on OTD, the causes or a place for opinions on the subjects. Those who normally join those threads and wondered in respectfully chose to exit quietly.

    I hope that you are getting the gist of my message. I don’t know who you are, but respectfully remind you that this particular thread has served a great purpose here and it is in the best interest of the OP that it remains that way and does not detour into anything other than that what it was meant to be and what it has been for months. If you were offended by my post then it was obviously not meant for your eyes but for another’s heart.

    Kol Hakovod to you for following in your own way, participating in the chumros that you choose to follow and being the Frum Jew that you enjoy being, and to all the rest who do it their own way. Hashem loves you and will always love you and be at your side to guide you and help you. A gut Yur to all.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182345
    aries2756
    Participant

    Hocked, it is so sad that you even the need to ask the question. Yes I truly believe in the Torah and I am very proud to be a Jew. I find that Yiddishkeit and serving Hashem, doing his bidding is beautiful and is the ultimate truth and I have Yiras Shamayim. But I grew up in a different generation.

    I am second generation Holocaust survivor. I was taught in a different manner. I was a valued child, when children were a commodity and not taken for granted, especially a “Frum” child in the hot new world of assimilation. Yes we had respect for our teachers, but they in turn as well as the school administration had respect for OUR parents. They were begging parents to send children to Frum schools and NOT to public school. Every child that went to Yeshiva was a “prize”! Every single talmid or talmidah was a win and a hot commodity. No child was thrown away like it is done today without a care. No child or parent is treated as shabbily as they are today. The school functioned with the success of the children in mind, and not with the success of the Administration. Yes every school wanted to be the best and have top notch students, but they also accommodated other levels as long as they worked to meet their own individual potentials and followed the rules. They hired teachers to work within the framework at the level of each class.

    If you broke the rules or failed for lack of effort then you were assisted in transferring to another school. No one was thrown out on the street. It was quite different from what kids experience today. We had good reason to trust our teachers at least in the schools that I went to. Our principals were honest upstanding individuals and our board of directors were made of prominent individuals as well as members of the parent body.

    It was also not so common for members of the community to be such poor role models in general. It was a big BUSHA to be a called a ganuv, or to be caught cheating on your spouse, or to be called unethical in any way. People were not forgiving at that time and held a person responsible and accountable for their actions. If a person went to jail, no one wanted to mingle with him or be mishadech with his family. Today it is looked upon as if someone went on vacation, or a rite of passage. Look at the world today. When someone is ousted as a molester, the community rallies behind him instead of the victim.

    It is no wonder you would ask such a question when it seems like the world has turned upside down. But do you know why this has happened? Because people are NOT close to the Torah. They have devised chumrahs upon chumrahs upon chumrahs till they forgot what the original inyan in the Torah was. They want to out-Torah the Torah! They are no longer connected to the Torah only to the chumrahs they created to protect the Torah and therefor are NOT close to Hashem nor are they involved in the mitzvos they are supposed to be doing. They have forgotten the simplicity of just plain doing the mistzva b’simcha because they made it so complicated and confusing. And then they look for loopholes to outsmart and outfox the Torah because they have to be smarter than the Torah. This is where they get into the worst trouble.

    If I cheat in the name of Tzaddaka then it is really a mitzva that I am doing because it is for Tzedaka not for myself, oh but if I am working for the organization and I am supposed to get paid a commission and I cheat to make more money for the organization, as a perk I make more money too. But the intent is not to cheat for myself to make more money, it is to make more tzadaka money so then it must be allowed because it is a mitzvah to collect Tzadakah. So you see how you get into trouble when you look for loopholes to twist the Torah around to make it work for you instead of you working to serve Hashem through Torah and Mitzvos?

    When you learn Torah, and practice it even at its simplest form, and follow the guidelines simply, honestly, with joy and simcha, without the complications you enjoy the purist forms of satisfaction and happiness. Your life is less complicated because you trust in Hashem and give your problems over to him as you do his bidding and serve him. What can be more truthful and honest tan that?

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182341
    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, he was testing your reaction. Obviously it wasn’t fun for him, but it was interesting that he told you about it. I wonder why he did it. Probably because it scared the heck out of him. Maybe he wanted to know your reaction because he was wondering what would have happened had the cops took them to jail. Maybe your reaction should have been “looks like you were lucky last night, maybe next time you won’t be as lucky and you might be hauled off to jail. You might not like staying out all night if it means keeping company with the cops.” Had YOU said that calmly without over reacting and then walk away, it would have given HIM something to think about. Seriously think about because it still wouldn’t have solved his curiosity as to what would happen. Would you go get him or not. He would have to plain out ask you what you would do. Don’t offer him an answer unless he asks you outright and you should be prepared to give him the “right” answer.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182339
    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, It is not up to you to judge how he feels. The truth is you just don’t know, you are just assuming by the way he acts. In truth, you have no way of knowing what he truly feels or what he is truly thinking. He is giving off an aura of “I don’t care, you don’t care, the world doesn’t care, etc.” Therefore the best thing to do is take two deep breathes and thing before speaking. You might just answer “I hear you” which is non judgmental and non-committal. That might not tick him off while giving you the opportunity to acknowledge that you heard him.

    It is a good sign that he has “told” you that he is NOT happy with his chevra life. That is NOT a normal thing for a child to do if he doesn’t trust his parents’ love for him. He is tenderly reaching out but still wants to make his own choices. Right now it would seem that he just wants to be heard and not guided. So please just “listen” to understand. Maybe there will be an opportunity down the road in the not too distant future when you will be able to say “In what way can I offer you support with that?” or “how can I support you with that?” Right now he doesn’t seem ready to hear that.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182337
    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, right now you are just an observer in his life. He doesn’t want your applause and he doesn’t want your approval. He just wants you to love him no matter what. Kol Nidrei night it is possible that the yetzer horah got to him or that he even went with his chevra to a minyan for boys like them and maybe he didn’t like it. For Neilah, the Yetzer tov got to him and he felt a need or a stirring or whatever and it was his choice to do what he did. In addition it was very possible that he and his friends discussed keeping Yom Kippur both before and after. Just take a step back and see what develops without judgment one way or the other. Give him some slack and let him guide you.

    Hatzlocha.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182330
    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, I don’t think you should comment, just do as he asks. You can smile of course, wish him a good day, or just say “of course, my pleasure”. If you make a big deal it will back fire. If it is his decision it might last. If you make seem like he is doing it to please you, or he is back on YOUR track, it might back fire. As I said before it might be an influence of one of his Rebbeim or someone at the school. It might be something the entire group is trying together, so just watch and see without letting your heart catch in your throat. Step back and just be a bystander while he finds his footing.

    As far as the simcha is concerned don’t discuss it with him until and day or two before. You will be surprised what he might decide on his own. A few days before the simcha you might ask him if he needs his suit pressed or altered for the simcha or if he needs a new shirt. Are you planning on having the men wear matching ties, or coordinating ties? If so, why not ask him for help choosing the ties for the men.

    If the men are not matching in any way and he doesn’t want to wear a white shirt try to compromise, see if he will agree to a light blue or light grey shirt with a nice tie. It is NOT worth fighting over. The fact that he is there and participating in the simcha is the important thing. What he wears in NOT that important do don’t focus on that. You can tell him that it is a “formal” affair so dressing down would not be appropriate.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182324
    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, patience is the key. You will have to wait and see if he was genuine or not. Obviously there is a war going on inside of him. The yetzer tov is working over time to pull him away from the yetzer rah. You will have to be patient to see who will win out.

    In the mean time, just ask him to stop hitting his siblings. Let him know that it is just not acceptable.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182322
    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, I would like to suggest something to you or rather ask you something? How do you think you could have handled that situation differently? Why was it necessary to ask him WHY he was wearing the tzisis? You might not have realized it at the time, but by making that comment he might have felt that you were challenging him. It might have been better to just smile or ignore it and wait to see what develops. Obviously he might have heard something in Yeshiva that might have touched him.

    When he said that he would try not to be mechalel Shabbos, you could have then responded “I respect you for trying to make that commitment and wish you true Hatzlocha with that.” He might have been angry all Shabbos for various reasons. Maybe you didn’t react the way he wanted you too, maybe he was angry with himself for telling you. At any rate, you need to chill out, take two deep breathes before responding and always respond with respect. That is the ultimate key, showing love and respect. That is the only way to reach him.

    It is very telling that he even said he would try and even let you know. In his own way he was trying to reach out to you. This is a baby step but still a step. Don’t take it lightly and don’t miss the opportunity to show appreciate and admire him for it. Don’t overdo it but still pay attention and try to give him the reaction and response that he needs.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182310
    aries2756
    Participant

    S1, they do happen but that doesn’t mean they have to continue to happen. Just because you strike out it doesn’t mean you can’t hit a homerun.

    Everyone makes mistakes and everyone falls in some way or another, no one is perfect. That doesn’t mean that there is no room for improvement or that mistake has to ruin your life and there is no turning back. Each day brings with it new opportunities and new options. Each day brings with it new choices. So what will it be today, will you make better choices for yourself? What about tomorrow if you weren’t able to do all that you wanted to do today, try again tomorrow.

    Maybe you are expected to much too soon. Maybe you are setting the bar too high. Choose small attainable and measurable goals. Choose something that is not too big to accomplish and feel good about yourself when you conquer it. Then you can move on to one more thing and each goal or challenge that you meet will help you and encourage you to move on to the next. Hatzlocha.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182307
    aries2756
    Participant

    SI, firstly, talking to boys if you are a girl is normal, it is just not what WE do because of obvious reasons. But it is still a normal thing. It is a hormonal thing and we have to acknowledge that. Hashem made us this way in preparation for marriage and having a normal relationship in marriage. So the first thing we need to realize and acknowledge is that young women having an interest in young men, and young men having an interest in young women is normal and healthy. It would be more unnatural and frightening if the opposite were true and obviously more to worry about. So first lets acknowledge that you are a healthy female and your body is not betraying you.

    Secondly, lets understand why we “choose” NOT to get involved with the opposite sex before marriage. Marriage is very sacred and very, very special to us. It is not something that we take lightly and not something as disposable as many seem to think it is. A frum marriage is really a lifelong commitment. What we believe is a bashert is truly a soulmate, truly the missing part of our own soul and our own body. WE are NOT fully complete until we find that missing piece. When we find our bashert we become ONE with him/her and we are then complete as a whole human being. That is the secret and the beauty of the Frum Jewish marriage.

    In this coming together as one unit, we don’t want to bring any ghosts or doubts into that relationship. We bring our own pure souls and beings to the other. We don’t want neither the man nor the woman to wonder or worry who was there before, who touched this neshoma who belongs to me, who is a part of me, who was my missing piece and made me whole. Who does s/he think of when we are not together, who does s/he remember, who does s/he compare me to? These are the ghosts that put space and obstacles between you. Without these ghosts you become as close as two people could possibly be, so close that only breathe itself can come between you. Can you imagine that? Can you understand that?

    What does one mean when they refer to purity as “the driven snow”? How beautiful is the fallen snow when there is no footprints in it? What happens when people start to walk through it, is it still so beautiful or does the landscape change? Does it hold the same magic?

    When we understand that we are normal having an interest in the opposite sex and yet we also understand that we are being loyal to our future spouse by not allowing ourselves to give in to that interest and that desire, we hold ourselves up to a higher standard. Yes, I like boys, I am supposed to like boys, Hashem made be that way B”H. But talking to boys is not my ultimate goal. Marrying a fine exceptional Man who respects me and will not bring unimportant past relationships into OUR MARRIAGE is more important, and I respect MY future husband and will not bring unimportant past relationships to haunt him into our future marriage either.

    I hope this makes some sense to you and will help you with your struggle.

    The other issue about talking to a Rav or perhaps a Rebbetzin. Why would your family have a problem with that? Any time a person speaks to a Rav or Rebbetzin they are mechazek. Why would your family have a problem with you being mechazek?

    SI, personally I don’t find anything that you are doing bad. As I said, they are normal, just not for our circles. So maybe you need to redefine what you are torturing yourself with in order to make better decisions for yourself. Maybe you need to leave the guilt behind and just work on yourself one step at a time. I am here for you in any capacity if you feel I can help you.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182302
    aries2756
    Participant

    S1- Your post made me so sad? What is your definition of a “good” person? And how do you measure it?

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182291
    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, you are caught up in expectation that are not rational. Your son is on a long dark journey, and you are trying to drag him onto a time line. It isn’t going to work. You just ave to hang on to your hat because you are infor a long rough road. You are going to have to buckle down the hatches as they say as you ride the ways through it. You can neither predict nor determine what he is feeling nor thinking. The son you knew is buried within this new creature. You really don’t know this new reincarnation. It is sad but it is the truth. Even more sad is that those who have experience with this can better predict the steps and what he needs than you can and we don’t even know him.

    So whether you think he will throw out your notes, keep writing I can almost guarantee that he won’t and even if he does he still needs them. If he pulls away when you hug him, keep hugging because he needs it and wants it, he just doesn’t want you to know it. When he is feeling low and lonely and his friends are not around, he will need reassurance and that is when he will take out your notes and reread theme or replay them in his mind becausethatiswhen he needs toenvelophimself with your love. You still remain his security blanket whether he wants to admit it or not.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182285
    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, you need to do the right thing no matter how you perceive his reaction. He looked embarrassed? Was he embarrassed from his friends that his Mom said hello or from his Mom that she finally saw his friends? You still need to be the adult and the smart one at that. Stop being afraid of your child and his reactions. As you said you have no idea why he is so angry. Ignore him when he is angry. At that time just walk away from him and give him space. It is as if his head and heart is filled with the garbage of the streets he needs time to unwind from that garbage before he can be approached. So give him that time and don’t approach him until he has softened. In all honesty it sounds like he is drunk.

    And again I say this especially since he still has the ability to be embarrassed, write, write, write! Let him read your thoughts and feelings in the privacy of his own room where no one can see his reactions. He will read it as many times as he needs to. It will have more of an effect than the spoken word, without the confrontation. On his skewered mind right now he has to show rebellion and bravado, but he does not have to show anything as he reads in the privacy of his room at his own discretion.

    Best wishes for a Shanah Tova, wishing you Bracha, Mazel , Koch and most importantanly tons of patience.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182281
    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, always, always acknowledge your son and his friends. Wish them a good Shabbos, a gut Yom Tov, a good Day whatever the case may be with a warm and sincere smile. They deserve no less! It is only by acting with the utmost kovod and yiras shamayim toward these children that help them turn around. Others with seichel will also greet them kal vachomer their own parents!

    As far as the other children are concerned I would suggest a family meeting. Tell the children that something happened to their brother that caused him to lose his emunah and he is considered a choleh now because he is in a lot of inner pain and turmoil. His neshomas feels lost, nah v’nad almost. His neshomah is very confused and that is why the yetzer horah has more power over him. But he is the same son and brother they always had, he is just in a bad personal place right now and he needs all the love and support the family can give him as well as understanding and rachmanus. And yes everyone should daven for him to keep him safe while he goes through this dark journey.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182279
    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, I just want to mention that you might want to take some time to sit down with the rest of the family before Shabbos and before Yom Tov to discuss with them the fact that your son might or might not participate this year. There is no way to predict whether or not he will feel the need to, whether or not he will feel the connection. It is important to allow the other children to address their feelings about this in a safe and controlled environment and probably better to be pro-active than reactive.

    If you sit down as a family prior to the Yomim Noraim and discuss this allowing each child a turn to vent calmly or ask questions in an orderly fashion, you can take some control of the situation before it becomes an uncontrollable situation. Allowing each to vent their own pain and frustration is important and explaining to them that you are “new” at handling this type of situation with their sibling but you are following the guidance of experts on the subject, might help them to understand that what they think they see and feel as hefkeirus is really not.

    Depending on what they ask or say, explain to them that through phone calls and emails you are discussing every issue and incident and are receiving as much support as you can get and as many answers that are available to you. Everything that you do in regard to your son is with the hope and prior experience of others to lay the foundation to turn him around and bring him back. But of course it also takes tremendous love and tefilah on your and on their part coupled with the support of the rest of the family. In addition I would also suggest that you initiate the connection method through writing. The rest of the family should stay connected with him by writing to him and leaving him notes on his bed. It could be notes of chizuk as well as notes of pure emotion and feelings such as “it makes me sad that you don’t spend any time with me or even notice me anymore” or even “why don’t you love me any more, what did I do to you?”

    Some times these notes from younger siblings will wake him and shake him to some of the realities of his own behaviors. It also relieves some of the tensions building up inside the other kids and it is important to recognize their needs as well.

    Hatzlocha!

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182272
    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, now that he is in school, did you try speaking to the RY? Is this common in his school? I know this is painful for you and so does he. Is he just testing you or is this something he feels strongly about. Why not ask him. Why not tell him that you appreciate him coming to speak to you about this before going ahead with it. Then ask him why he really wants to do it? Is he being pressured to? Does he really like the way it looks? It isn’t even as “cool” as it once was, it is just an act of defiance and in years to come, it is something that he might truly regret. Ask him to really think about what he feels he will gain by doing it, and what he might possibly lose and why this would be a “good choice” on his part. Since he wants to make his own choices he should really take the time to determine if he is making choices because it is truly what HE wants to do or he is making choices because it is what others want him to do, or maybe because he wants to “fit in” to a mold that others have created for him. Because when you break free of one mold you should not allow yourself to fit into another.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182262
    aries2756
    Participant

    W.O.W seriously? We are n shul Rosh Hashanah to beg Hashem not to judge us harshly and you are concerned about what others are going to ask you about your son? Here is the answer “Hashem doesn’t discriminate, he is going through his own nisyonos. Let us all daven that all of Klal Yisroel manage their individual nisyonos with the help of Hashem, become stronger in their emunah because of them and learn something important from their individual journeys.”. How does that sound to you?

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182257
    aries2756
    Participant

    Chloqueen, i can tell you from my own personal experience, it is not difficult to love and care for someone else’s child. I have done it numerous times while mentoring at risk teens. They all became part of my family and I still keep in touch with many of them as they have grown and started families of their own. I called it co-parenting. Hatzlocha to you and your friends, give people the opportunity to love you and you might be surprised to see the results.

    in reply to: Whistle blowing? #894952
    aries2756
    Participant

    “He had asked specifically to help “watch” the little ones in the shul. This took place during kiddush in a “kids room” that was supposed to be cleared by the shul and locked. The family did not just let their kids run wild without supervision. The molester, according to the PA, was predatory and planned this well in advance.”

    And so Yehuda Tzvi, I am going to ask the very tough questions here. WHO is taking responsibility for this???? “He asked to “help” watch the little ones” and no one thought that odd?

    “a “kids room” that was supposed to be cleared by the shul and locked.” And WHY WASN’T IT?

    “The family did not just let their kids run wild without supervision.” Are you kidding me? With all the information available about safety and how to protect your kids, never leave them alone with anyone even a frum person, why would the family allow their six year old little girl to be alone with a 15 year old boy?

    There is enough blame and guilt to go around here and the parents have the right to sue the shul here as well. EVERYONE did EVERYTHING WRONG HERE!!! Doesn’t anyone have common sense here? Who did he ask to “help watch the little kids”?, who approved of this arrangement? who did not lock the door? who was supposed to supervise him and the little kids? Where were the other little kids? Everyone involved here needs to have their heads examined and that is what makes this whole scenario so horrific. Why was everyone’s head in the sand???? Anyone could have prevented this!!!

    This is even more sickening than before. How could an entire group of adults be so clueless and so stupid? No wonder you are so angry, but you are angry at the wrong person. Yes the teen molester has huge blame here on his shoulders but so do all the adults here who missed the warning signals and NEGLECTED to keep that child safe. SHAME on ALL OF THEM!!!!!

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1182247
    aries2756
    Participant

    AZOI.IS, I ask all my clients to read “Choice Theory” by Dr. William Glaser, before anything else so that they understand the basics. It is a very important book and most people have to read it twice to really understand it.

    in reply to: Whistle blowing? #894934
    aries2756
    Participant

    Health, the problem is victims in many cases can’t deal with the truth themselves until they are much older, in their 30’s and 40’s. That is how the truth came out about Kolko and YTT. It wasn’t till an adult survivor in his 40’s married with children decided it was time to confront the truth and that he was stable, capable and ready to do so.

    As you can see, it is very difficult to stand up not only to the perpetrator himself but to the community in general who choose not to believe children in general and are suspicious even of the motives of adult survivors.

    Please consider this. Had that one man not come forward about Kolko, he would have continued to molest countless numbers of children from that point up till now. We have no idea how many young neshomas that survivor saved by coming forward when he did. He was strong and committed to the truth and would not let anyone intimidate or bribe him into keeping quite. That is probably because he was already an established individual who was at an age where he was able to deal with the past, had enough support both within in his own family and through enough therapy to be empowered.

    Look what unfortunately the community, including the Rabbonim do to young innocent victims, it is a mockery of justice.

    in reply to: Whistle blowing? #894932
    aries2756
    Participant

    Syag, it is a real puzzlement why people refuse to believe the truth. We have a saying in yiddish “ah zoy vi goyishtuzch yiddishtzuch” what happens in the goyish world also happens in the Yiddish world and that is because we are all human beings. We all have yetzer hara and yetzer tov and we all have bechira. We have the same illness and can contract the same diseases. It is the way we choose to live our lives and how honest and faithful we truly are to the Torah that makes the diference.

    For many people it is just too hard to believe that Frum Jews would behave so horrifically and it will still take time for them to get it. For others, they believe what their Rebbeim tell them to believe. Some are just jerks who like to stir up conflict and add fuel to the fire, and some are molesters themselves trying to keep things undercover.

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