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We now know how dangerous it is and WE as Parents MUST put our foot down. So WE must make the rules for OUR children. Drinking should be done ONLY at OUR purim seudah table and that will be WINE only that Tatty gives out during the SEUDAH. NO ONE is allowed to give OUR CHILDREN mashkeh and OUR CHILDREN are NOT ALLOWED to accept any from anyone even their Rebbeim. The answer is “NO THANK YOU!”. If they push the answer is “I will be oiver a takanah that my parents put on me and that is an aveirah against kibud av v’em”. Pull out all the stops if you have to. Say you will not prepare Shaloch Manos for their Rebbeim if they don’t comply! Let them know what the consequences are. Take them to a Hatzolah member to hear some of the horror stories before Purim. Take them to a Rebbe who has more seichel to speak to before Purim. DO WHATEVER YOU HAVE TO DO TO KEEP YOUR CHILDREN SAFE!
As a teenager one of my sons got drunk once on Purim out of town and threw up in the snow outside someone’s house and passed out.. His friends left him there in the snow until he woke up and came to. That was the first and last time for him. When he graduated and came home and went to a local Bais Medrash, he told his sister that he was going to have a drink at the chagigah and that she should stay up to pick him up later. He called her to come get him. He had one drink but his friends were dead drunk. He had to carry them into my daughter’s car (that they shared) and she drove them home one at a time. It took them a while to show up to the house again because my son made a point of telling them how they got home that night. They were totally embarrassed from my daughter.
No one likes a drunk except for another drunk!!
Smiling is contagious like yawns so watch the simcha chain grow!
People need to choose what truly works for them, but they need to do a din v’cheshbon and truly decide what “works” for them and not do what other people “expect” of them. Every year you get to sit and learn in Kollel should be considered a gift and it should be appreciated. Every wife who chooses to support her husband in their learning should be appreciated and treated like a queen. Every parent who chooses to support their children in learning should be treated with the utmost appreciation and gratitude. But in no way should a Kollel Couple feel it is coming to them and should they expect it. And when the financial sources dry up, or when a woman feels she can no longer keep working and support the family, she should be able to approach a husband and feel understood and supported when it is time to hand over the reigns of support and there should be a plan in place when that moment comes or when the time comes that parents can no longer continue support or must shift the support to the next couple in line.
In addition, when a man feels that he has taken advantage of the opportunity for as long as he can and he must now go on to the next mitzvah of being mepahrness his family, his wife, and his Rosh Yeshiva should respect him and his decision and support that. When a true talmid Torah, who takes his learning to heart and can no longer watch his wife work so hard and burden herself with so much responsibility has the chochmas lev to take over, you really have to applaud his insight and his love for his wife and family.
Those bochurim who choose to understand the mitzvah of mepharness their own mishpacha and do not wish to put that “ole” on anyone else and still find a zman kavuah to learn should be respected and supported in that decision. Each decision is “right” for the person making it and neither should be disrespected or looked down upon.
One more thing. I wish someone or some group would publish a proper way to let a boy or girl down easily without hurting their feelings when they get a “NO” for an answer. This is probably the hardest thing a person has to do ever, and that is why many people don’t want to get involved.
However, if there was a way to handle it that is universally acceptable and worded appropriately and that parents and kids would accept without taking it personally, more people would work on it. When you have to say “NO” to someone you are always reluctant to call back, so you wait a little then they call you and you try to think of a good response, sometimes fibbing. The truth is just because I think or someone else thinks someone is a good shidduch it certainly doesn’t mean that we are right and that either party will agree. We can only try. So when we have to return a negative answer it is so difficult when the party starts in with “tell me the truth THEY think we are not good enough right? They are looking for money? What’s wrong with my daughter and so on.” Or even worse when a prospect is redt some responses go like “That is who you are proposing for my child? Or sure it wasn’t good enough for so and so that is why you are bringing it to me.”
Honestly, there needs to be a handbook published to be given out at graduation to ALL PARENTS about the etiquette of handling shiducchim. Because someone is turned down it is not a negative on them, the other party has their reasons where they are reasonable or not, but it is their problem or issue if they don’t want to give you a chance. I look at it as “their loss”.
When I redt a shidduch if someone callously tells me “I will put her on my list” I tell them “No thank you, my girls are too good to go on anyone’s list. Put ME on your list and when you are ready call me back. I try not to give the girl’s name unless I see some interest, that way if they give me the stupid “list” answer they have no clue who I am speaking about.
Firstly there is no inyan of paying a shadchan until it is a done deal. One must pay the shadchan before walking down to the chupah.
Secondly one of the largest problems today is that people don’t want to get involved. There are many HS’s and Seminaries that do not respond to inquiries about their students or give a pat answer “Do you know how many girls go through these doors, do you expect us to know all of them?” To that I say “Yes you should”. Every HS and Seminary should make it their business to have a liason for each and every graduate before graduation. They should keep a file on each one with a photo (not for public viewing) to remind them who they are talking about.
In addition Roshei Yeshivas should also appoint a liaison for the bochurim in their Bais Medrash. I have also spoken to many that each and every shul should have a shidduch committee to meet with potential prospects and have files to be able to redt shidduchim with other shul groups and also be available for information. Who knows these kids and families better than their own shul family who watched these kids grow up? Who are more vested in the success of these kids than their own kehilah?
It would be a good idea if representatives of various shuls met a few times a year to present their prospects. IMHO I don’t believe there are enough shadchanim around. More and more people have to get involved and do it the right way according to Torah guidelines and with the assistance of a Rav.
I am happy to receive cards from people who are of some distance and from friends and acquaintances that are really not part of the inner circle. i prefer that they spend their money on tzaddakah than on candy I will give away or throw out.
On the other hand, close family members and close friends show some hakaros hatov to one and other when they offer their shalach manos (a special something) once a year. But it should really be spoken about in shuls and in yeshivas about not getting too carried away either with their shaloch manos or with their list. It isn’t necessary to look for more people to include as you meet more each year. Shuls do a one for all shalach manos which works well, and if you don’t wish to do that, Rabbanim these days should speak about the financial strain people are under so if you are cut from someone’s list don’t be insulted be understanding. I unfortunately am not in a position to make my own Shelach Manos so I purchase from Keren Aniyim and it gets very costly but I keep telling my husband it is tzedaka so stop freaking out we are doing two mitzvos at once.
AZ, actually the poster didn’t ask you. The poster specifically said that enough was said on the subject!
jphone, of course you are right and that would be and should be the ideal situation in the perfect world. But unfortunately our world is far from perfect and in the attempt to reach heights of perfection we have toppled our existence upside down and inside out to the point of the ridiculous.
Children today are taught to look for things beyond their means and this applies to the concept of learning full time as well. Where one child would want a house another child would want support for the rest of their lives. Neither one has the right to demand that of their parents who have their own financial obligations to their own home and other family members (who will want the same). Each couple starting out in a marriage need to think about and plan how they will support themselves. They need to actually sit down and look at what things cost and see what kind of money needs to come in to cover the money that will be going out.
It is shocking to some, but many couples have a rude awakening when they go out for the first time to buy their own pampers. And for those men who just assume their wive’s will nurse their kids to save on formula, that doesn’t always work either. In addition make sure you are comfortable with second hand clothes and equipment for the children and other cost cutting maneuvers. That of course comes after the rent, car, insurance, gas, food, washer, dryer, etc. that every couple feels they need. Not to mention the furniture, linen and other housewares.
So if you can afford to do it, and have an agreement with someone to help support you for whatever time frame they can, appreciate it and have a good plan for when that support stops. It is not fair to expect parents to work well into their 70’s to keep your family going. JMHO.
My daughter who is in her early 30’s went to two camps in her camping days. One was Sternberg and the other was a prettier, cleaner (IMHO) well manicured lawn type of camp. She had curtains on her bunk window and even doors on the closets. So nice and home like. Each time we visited her in Sternberg in was raining and muddy!!!!
Guess what, she LOVED, LOVED, LOVED Sternberg!!!!!! I was so shocked because she was a pichecheleh and neat freak. Go figure. I really haven’t heard of anyone he didn’t love it.
If you know information on either person in the shidduch and that is bothering you and you want to know whether to say something or not, you need to discuss it with your own Rav. Some things must be told and some things not. In addition, what you might think is so important might not be seen as a very important issue by a learned Rav experienced in shidduchim or life in general. If that is what this is all about, speak to your Rav and be satisfied with his answer. You have done your job by bringing it to the attention of a Rav who knows the halachas involved. Do not say who the people involved are or that may sway the decision just why you feel it is necessary to share the information and ask the sheilah.
If you are talking about your own shidduch then speak to your own Rav or Rosh Yeshiva with your concerns or speak to the known “Chassan Rebbe” of the yeshiva who can help you sort out your thoughts and feelings. You can also seek the counsel of a dating coach.
I thought you weren’t going to keep allowing every mention of Shidduchim to be usurped by the same two people continuing their arguments and discussions on every shidduch thread. Can’t we just keep that going on the other thread and allow this thread to veer in another direction?
Sorry that you feel that way but if you are upset about the shidduch discussion you should turn the page or shut the screen. Obviously the discussion is not meant for you. The only way to find solutions is by discussion and by exchanging ideas, comments and experiences. It is unfortunate that some people usurp the threads with an ongoing feud but only the moderators can control that. I choose to skip over the posts that are irritating or take the discussion into another direction. On the other hand I learn from other’s experience and insight.
There are a lot of variables one has to consider before asking this question.
1. The age of the child.
2. Who they are collecting for, a tzedaka that you approve of and support.
3. Who organized the groups.
4. Who the driver will be
5. Where they are going
6. How you can contact him
7. When he will be home
Many yeshivos send their boys out collecting without any regard to the fact that the boys are mechuyav to have a seudah as well and should be at HOME for the seudah. They also rarely get involved and do not wish to be responsible for the arrangements including paying for the costumes.
When groups come to OUR home, before my hubby gives a check he asks to meet the driver and if he is a young driver we ask to see his license. We also make sure that the driver is not drinking and we offer coffee to him.
WE don’t appreciate bochurim coming in drunk to our home and they will not impress upon us to give them a check when they are that irresponsible. I have a table set up with cake, soda and coffee. If anyone asks us for mashkeh or even wine, we show them the door.
We also ask who the boys are and where they go to school.
It is hard to collect money in these hard economic times, and the job should not be left to young bochurim although we enjoy their enthusiasm and spirit.
So you really need to consider how old your son is, who he will be going with and were they will be going.
Young men and women, basically kids, in the shidduch parsha don’t usually have shidduchim redt directly to them rather it is customary to redt the shidduch to the parents. Once a young woman or man have been dating for a long while and have aged up a bit into their early or mid 20’s, then it is appropriate to speak directly to them. Children who are not handling shidduchim on their own usually just give the shadchan their mothers’ number.
IR, “boys” who get married should be considered “men” and once they are married they should not be running back to their parents for advice. They should be discussing everything with their spouse and only discuss with parents when they both agree to do so. It is better for a young couple to consult a Rav or a guidance counselor if they have a personal or marital issue before going to parents. I remember in my own “Kallah” class many, many, moons ago the teacher said “Neither one of you should go back with your problems to your parents. Because YOU will forgive each other and move on, but PARENTS will never forget or forgive when their child has been hurt.” That was good advice then and it is good advice now.
Couples should be able to run their own marital household without their parents’ involvement when they get married. And parents should know not to offer advice or pry for information unless and until it is requested.
Special Ed services which can be given in the realm of the Yeshiva day in the Yeshiva building is usually accommodated and no exceptions need to be made. However, if a child is going for counseling with a social worker or psychologist the best thing is to not add additional stress to the child by causing the child to miss classes, have a need to get notes, find out the homework and catch up. Having a child fall behind will only complicate the situation.
Therapists usually have evening appointments as well as Sunday appointments. So the first thing to do is to ask the Therapist for available hours and see if they can maneuver another client who is not so time oriented to another appointment so your child can have an after school appointment. If that cannot be done, speak to the therapist to decide whether a different school or a different therapist is the right way to go. Believe me, there are a lot more therapists out there than there are yeshivos that a parent can pick for their child. I would not go to the guidance counselor in the yeshiva to help with this situation because they are paid by the Yeshiva and cannot possibly be as non-biased as necessary.
It is very sad when one reads that boys are not mature nor are they thinking of getting married when parents push them to date and get married. If a boy’s head is only in learning and not in finding his soul mate, then he is definitely not ready to get married. Boys who are entering the shidduch arena, rather young men entering the shidduch arena need to be prepared for the responsibility of marriage and relationships. That in itself causes friction and problems in marriage. Marriage is not a transfer from your parents’ home to a home with a wife where the wife takes over the role of the mother. So if a bochur is not mature enough or is not truly thinking about marriage, that is a situation that has to be dealt with before he starts dating. Even if the parents pick the perfect girl for him, they cannot move in with them and direct or orchestrate his emotions, reactions, contributions, responses, attentiveness, appreciation, gratitude and love for his wife.
Anuran, and that is why the Torah gives us guidelines and Rabbonim will advise on the side of the kids.
When I redt a shidduch i am very careful to ask “What is your son/daughter looking for”? When i hear the person veer off again into her or his wants for their child I say that’s admirable and understandable but our children are not necessarily carbon copies of us so what are they looking for?
Parents who ignore who their child truly is and ignore’s their needs and wants, will only waste their child’s and the other prospects time and energy on unsuccessful meetings and dates. They will postpone their child’s wedding and will cause tremendous friction and frustration in their relationship with their child and stress in their lives and in their child’s life.
In addition it is a tremendous responsibility to assume. If we think we have the right to decide or choose who our children should marry and they are not happy or they end up c”v in divorce are we prepared to handle the guilt and be accountable for that outcome? Personally I am not. When children are old enough to get married and handle the relationship of marriage, they are old enough and should be trusted enough to know and understand what is important to them in a spouse and what they are attracted to.
If a boy is foolish enough to want only a skinny anorexic size 2 girl and the parents keep choosing hefty young ladies for him, he will be stuck going out with them but will never agree to marry them. If parents want their daughter to only marry a learning boy and those are the only boys that ring her bell, she will go out with them but will never agree to marry them no matter how much the parents push. If a young woman wants only a college grad and the parents choose a boy from a wealthy family that works for this parents, it just won’t work because that girl is probably looking for a more intelligent, well educated and well rounded young man, not just someone who can make a living.
So please understand it is not a matter of kibud av-v’em. It is a matter of life and a successful future. We are literally holding our children’s future lives in our hands and we can’t take that lightly. They are not pawns on a chessboard that can just be maneuvered around or placed in the right hole, or told what to do. They have brains and hearts, needs and feelings and they have to be heard and validated.
Hopefully parents have spent enough time raising children and being a good role model for them, have given them the proper chinuch, the basics of right and wrong and good strong jewish education. Hopefully if parents are involved in their children’s shidduchim there is a sense of trust and reason as well as communication between them. So at this point in their road to adulthood and maturity it is time for parents to listen to understand.
If someone was asked this question I believe her answer should be “because I myself am committed to the “Kollel life. Because I believe in putting aside materialism in favor of spiritualism and I am willing to do with less or without to support my beliefs.”
In addition she should be asked additional questions such as:
How long do think or expect your husband to learn full time?
Who will support your family while he is learning? Have you actually sat down and figured out what a basic no frills or low maintenance budget is? And what is your back-up plan if the finances doesn’t come through?
When I was sitting shiva for my father a”h, a co-worker (male much younger) comes in lunch time just as my aunt had barely convinced me to eat something. I went back into the living room and sat down. He shrugs his shoulders looks at me and says “he just heard a young man was shot in Jersey!”. I didn’t know if I should laugh or cry! Did he think I wanted to hear about more tzoris when I was already in enormous pain? Did he think that by telling me that others were suffering it would make my suffering easier? My aunt took one look at my shocked face and said “I have to insist that she eat something now”, and dragged me into the kitchen.
Tzippi, true, just keep in mind that you are basically walking on stones and cracks which are slippery when wet and not really paved concrete like you are used to at home. So thin heels are really just for decoration and not for walking. Shoes with rubber soles rather than leather soles work better. Shoes with a thicker sole rather than a paper thin sole work better as well.
People stand on their own set of rules and principles when doing shidduchim. What one person considers foolish and stupid another considers absolute unyielding. There are no rules in the shidduch game and unfortunately parents miss wonderful opportunities and waste years of their children’s lives while doing this.
Yes of course, parents have to be careful and do what they think is best for their child. But they also have to realize and understand that their is another partner in the shidduch game/process and that is Hashem. And that every shidduch presented is presented for a reason. Hashem put that idea into someone’s head and that is why that shidduch was redt! That great learning boy those parents are selling may one day decide he had enough and he can’t do it anymore. Hashem has a very interesting sense of humor and he also tests people in different ways.
It is truly unfortunate that WE as a whole don’t realize that and understand that, and we are way too quick to judge others for minor and incidental issues.
Please keep in mind that there are a lot of things that can and maybe should be bought in E”Y because they could use the parnasah and YOU are paying extra for additional luggage anyway or being matriach other people to shlep your kids stuff with them. I am not saying this to be rude or negative I am just saying it as a thought.
Also many people forget that E”Y goes through seasons as well and it does get cold there so be prepared for that.
Kids do have access to laundry and they don’t have much room or closet space so you might want to discuss that with your daughter and seminary to see if it pays to send more to do laundry less often or send less and more $$$$$ to do laundry more often. That depends on the seminary and the accommodations.
If the seminary has a uniform/dress code you will have to conform to that and buy clothing accordingly. If not, then you are on your own where that is concerned. Girls should really ask other girls what they used the most and what they brought that they hardly used at all. Such as sneakers and flats. They definitely need more than one pair of each.
ronrsr, how true. And if you haven’t read the etiquette book the simple thing is just to say “I am so sorry for your loss” and leave it at that. Or in the case of an illness “I wish you (or your family member) a refuah shlemah b’karov”. You can’t go wrong with that either. Of course if you need to take it further, you can always ask for the name so you can say a kapital Tehillim, and then you can leave it at that.
The other appropriate thing to do, and only if YOU REALLY MEAN IT, is to ask if there is any that YOU can do to help or assist. If you do mean it, write your name and number down on a piece of paper and give it to the person saying “I know a lot of people offer but I really mean it, if you need me you can call me.”
A sheilah was asked by my Rav last Pesach and the answer was it was not considered a grain. Maybe because it is something new and not part of shivas haminim.
Isn’t it amazing how many people were on the wrong line when Hashem gave out Common Sense?
It is truly unfortunate that people feel they have a “right” to say whatever is on their mind and forget that Hashem gave them a guard “teeth and lips” to stop their tongue.
As far as the blogs go, they feel that their anonymity gives them the right to say whatever they choose and they also forget that Hashem is still above and knows everything. To him they are not anonymous.January 28, 2010 5:39 am at 5:39 am in reply to: Yeshiva Principal Enforcing No-Cell-Phone Policy; Proper Or Not? #673603
HIE, actually they really mean NO PHONES, but they are containing themselves by banning them only from school!!!!
Kosher phone also means no internet, no email, etc. It is just a phone. Again, when we speak about convenience remember the question was posed about an 11th grade yeshiva bochur not the general public. Does an 11th grade yeshiva bochur “need” texting. I think the general consensus is “no he does not need it”. Should he get it? The general consensus is “it would be better if he didn’t at this time”.
The other discussion which veered off topic was if texting is useful and convenient or has it destroyed the basic use of conversation. The general consensus is “yes” to both.
You can “Watch” you child’s cell phone because you see the cell numbers in and out on the bill. I am not sure that you can see the text numbers but I am quite sure you can’t see what is sent. People have a tendency to be careful what they say on a cell phone because it might cross with someone else’s and it is not as secure as a land line but texting does not have that kind of danger.
I was working with a family whose kid wound up in Juvy. I immediately asked the kids to give me his cell phone. You can’t imagine what I found on it. “where can I get a piece”, I immediately erased all the text messages just in case. This was a nebech situation, a dysfunctional single parent home, etc. WE worked with the judge and wound up sending him to a rehab out of town. He did well there.
The problem is that no one intentionally misuses texting nor do they plan to over use it. Once you have it, you just don’t know if YOU will be the one addicted, over using it, or be the target of friends of friends texters. And no it is definitely not necessary especially for Yeshiva Bochurim in the 11th grade many of whom don’t even have cell phones. So lets not get carried away with necessities, as I said before it is a privilege not a right.January 26, 2010 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm in reply to: Yeshiva Principal Enforcing No-Cell-Phone Policy; Proper Or Not? #673598
HIE, that is reiterating the rule, in other words, not only will the cell phone be confiscated but you will also get a ZERO on the test. It is not allowed period. If you bring it to school put it in your locker, you are not allowed to walk around the school premises with your phone. It doesn’t make a difference which rule you are breaking, if you agreed to the rules when you entered the school then follow the rules.
There are reasons to have cell phones and there are reasons “not” to have cell phones. Understand that having a cell phone is a privilege and not a “right”. If you are asking whether or not you should have texting you are already understanding that there could be a problem. In truth, once you start texting, it is never ending and it could become very expensive. Texting is a simple way to send messages in private when you don’t want someone to necessarily pick up the phone, or draw attention to him/herself by having the phone ring and have them answer. They just glance at the phone and read just like email and it is definitely habit forming.
Remember the days of “beepers”? When someone would send a message on a beeper and people were constantly checking their beepers for messages? Grab and look in middle of conversations, yeah that’s it and it reinvented itself into text messaging. WE are constantly connected via text to phones and to computers. It is a convenience to some and a nuisance to others.
So should an 11th grader get texting? I can’t tell you what to do because it is a choice you have to make with your parents, but if I were to give you advice, I would ask you to hold off as long as you possibly can. And if you choose to get it, don’t start texting with your friends because you will surprised who winds up with your phone number and starts texting you. Just use it sparingly among your parents and siblings.
Get to the point, I would like to know how this this question and this thread got mixed up with the Binah/shidduch issue. It is two separate questions and it is unfair to have brought the same two debates ongoing running side by side on two consecutive threads by the same people. This question was what to do when outsiders butt into your business regarding shiduchim. If there is nothing more constructive to say and help with that situation maybe it should be closed because people who are interested in that answer are looking here only to find the same debate ongoing by the same people.
I looked it up, it is advertised in the classifieds of the Five Towns Jewish Times. It is called menadvim.
There are many causes for the problem. One of many is the craziness of the shiduch process as I mentioned earlier, the stupid question syndrome for starters. Secondly, I would say is that “PEOPLE” have put learning boys up as a commodity and they are up for sale to the highest bidder. That means of course that the prospective girl must have all the qualities the in-laws are looking for: wealth, yichus, health, figure, beauty & brains in that order. Basically, they are looking for perfection or as close to it as they can get. And I am not talking about wealthy people with learning sons. I am simply speaking about the Learning Boy Commodity. The boy does not necessarily have to be perfect or meet any of the other criteria, just that he has to be a good learner.
Next of course we have the wealthy families who are looking for girls in their own category. Wealth looks for wealth. So what does that leave, the ordinary learning boy who is looking for support who is still looking for perfection, and the same criteria as above, but we, meaning the Yiddish community has an abundance of wonderful, amazing beautiful, intelligent young women who may not be a size 2, may not come from wealthy families, may not have the yichus sticker, may have allergies or may be a healthy size 6, may not have gotten her masters before she was out of her teens, and may not have been toilet trained at 2. Or even c”v has a brother in a number 2 yeshiva.
And there is the next category of smart young women who are actually looking for working boys, but are afraid to say that to the shadchun for fear of scaring them off, and the young men who are in yeshiva not really learning who would rather be in college or working but are afraid to do so because they are afraid they won’t get a shidduch.
This is what we have done to our children and this is why IMHO we have so many older singles.
oomis, if you had bed bugs you would know it. You would feel the bites and the itching. So if you didn’t have any problems someone else wouldn’t either. On that note, you can get bed bugs in a brand new mattress from the factory as well. That is why they are sealed in plastic, but if you get one where there is a rip or tear in the plastic or it was resealed, it is very possible to have a problem. When my son took an apartment for a couple months to live near his job, he bought a cheaper mattress from a discount store. After a few months he realized something was wrong and came running home. He had bed bugs.January 22, 2010 4:20 am at 4:20 am in reply to: Yeshiva Principal Enforcing No-Cell-Phone Policy; Proper Or Not? #673582
I agree with Josh31, one must be very careful not to humiliate students especially in front of their peers. If you do it is not only an aveirah, it will backfire. Kids will say “he only did it to embarrass him” and they will lose respect for the mechanech. They will not learn from it.
Arc, no it isn’t the best for a 2 year old. Picking up viruses and illnesses from other kids whose parents are working and send them to nursery no matter what because they can’t stay home with them is not better for the kids. And separating from their mother and individual attention from them mothers have resulted in large amounts of children labeled with learning disabilities. Kids who don’t have the basics of colors, numbers, shapes and letters; Kids who don’t count well, don’t know their abc’s and so on. Kids who don’t have manners and fight more at a younger age because they don’t have the one on one influence from home. These are just some of the things that kids do normally and naturally at home with Mom.
You can also check with Nishei Agudas Israel. I believe they are also involved in helping with furniture. When I moved 15 years ago, I gave away my bedroom set. It was a very interesting story. Nishei sent a a couple from Brooklyn that was marrying off a son. They liked the set and I arranged with my mover to drop it off at their home. The woman called me after it was delivered. She said that she and her husband had been married over 25 years and never had a real bedroom set. All the kids said the set was so beautiful including the Choson and Kallah that they insisted that they keep it for themselves!
I don’t know how we got so crazy that we shove a 2 year old out to school even before they are toilet trained (yup in my neighborhood the nursery helps train). This pressure of even sending the 2 year olds to school has put a tremendous financial burden on young couples and is ridiculous. Why shouldn’t a 2 year old enjoy being home with their mother? For that matter why shouldn’t a 3 year old? Honestly look how the system has changed over the past 40 some odd years. In the past 2 generations we have added an extra 2 years to school. We added a Pre 1-A and an extra year of nursery. When I was a kid 4 year olds went to kindergarten selectively and 5 year olds went to first grade.
Now 2 year olds go to nursery, 3 year olds go to nursery (2), 4 year olds go to Kindergarten, 5 year olds go to Pre-1A and 6 year olds go to 1st Grade. That is 2 more years of tuition and two less years at home with Mommy.
And c”v if you don’t keep up with this platform, you can’t get in to a good yeshiva, because you practically have to register your kid when they are born, and you have to start from the get go or someone else will take your place.
Women are not made to work that hard. We are not superhuman although we are pushed to believe we are. That is until we crack and break down and then everything comes to a screeching halt. We all know what happens to women who are overburdened. We all know what happens to children whose mothers work themselves to the bone and whose fathers are never home. It is not a healthy situation. Not healthy at all for a frum family. There needs to be a balance and a man needs to know that it is unfair to indulge themselves in such a way. Truly it is. Aside from working a father has responsibilities to his children as well as to his wife.
So IMHO, when you are first married and you can afford to allow a young wife to work for a year or two or even after the first baby is born (unfortunately) appreciate it, every minute of it. But as your family grows and as the responsibilities increase, please review. But a husband has to have eyes that see, ears that truly listen, and a lev tov, to his wife more so than to anyone else.
Of course this doesn’t work for everyone, but it should at least be implemented for those it applies to.
I don’t believe there are any rules anymore, maybe by chasidim. It really depends what agreements the parents make at their sit down meeting before the chasunah. We agreed to go half on the furniture with my first two mechatonim. So I told both my daughter and daughter-in-law, don’t rush wait till you find something you really love because you will be stuck with it for 30 years. B”H they both have beautiful heirloom quality bedroom sets that they both still love. One from Spain and one from Italy and we split it with the mechutanim. Other items we wound up supplying because we are in the furniture business, and some things the kid’s got second hand from family members.
My other son took most of the antique furniture pieces from his own bedroom, leaving me just the bed and desk and that has been working for them for 5 years. We found them a used dining room set and we were able to give them the chairs and dinette table.
Today Kollel couples can find furniture that others give away. There is a chessed organization that was started this year that accepts and gives furniture and appliances I believe. I can’t remember the name at the moment but I think they have a classified ad in the JP and/or the FTJTimes.
My grandchildren know my rules “no whining, no kvetching and no crying” for Bobby. My daughter was over with her 4 year old daughter and she got upset and started to cry. I said “what is this, are you crying?” She stuck her arm through her mother’s arm and faced me chin up and said quite matter-of-factly “I’m not crying for you I’m crying for my Mommy!” And then marched off into the other room leaving my daughter with her mouth hanging open.
To Kollelboy and HIE
And with that, I am finished arguing with either one of you
Feel free to discuss the issues, but NOT how you feel about other posters
Personally I feel that everyone who wants to learn full time should have a “Yissocher/Zevulun” contract. Whether it is with your parents or a benefactor. “You will get schar for my learning and I obviously will get schar from your support”. Unfortunately that doesn’t happen and that is why so many, many young families and older families are in financial ruin and many are starving, literally. If you choose to be an “anuv” and live a very simple life, and your wife agrees that is fine, but is it a mitzvah to force your children into poverty? Is it a mitzvah to force them to go to bed hungry or go to school unfed?
This whole situation has gotten out of hand. It is a mitzvah for a man to be mepharnes his own family, it is stated in maseches Kesubos. However, if one can’t live without learning all day and has the support to do so, kol ha’kovod. But please don’t bankrupt your parents and in-laws. Don’t force parents to keep working well past their well earned retirement stage.
Well again, everyone is different. I have one sister and one brother, and they didn’t experience what I did when my father died. Are they stronger than I am? Am I more sensitive and emotional? Or did we all have different relationships with my father?
Probably, all of the above. What I listed and not bulleted, or outlined, was the most common 5 stages of the grieving process which you will find if you google “grieving process”. zeh hu! It helps to know that these strange feelings and emotions that might creep up on you is quite normal and you are not going crazy although you might feel that you are. You might experience it while your siblings don’t, as I did. The day after my father’s shloshim, 31 days exactly, my cousin made a wedding and both my siblings attended with my Mom. They each took some job like giving out the seating cards or holding the light for the camera, etc. so they can be in attendance. Everyone called and yelled at me that I have to go, how could I not? My question was “how could you go?”. My husband and kids went, and I stayed home alone, because I lost my father and I didn’t feel like finding an excuse or a loop hole to absolve my obligation to him. I didn’t want to see anyone, I didn’t want to dance, I didn’t want to smile and I didn’t want people to look at me.
My intention was not and is not to have a debate on what is the most common, or what is the proper way, or what psychologists agree on. I was simply answering an inquiry to the best of my knowledge.
But when you are talking about jobs or shiduchim you are talking about grown-ups, not kids who were barely just bar-mitzvah!
Here’s an idea, let’s make it a more natural experience. Let’s refuse to answer “stupid” and irrelevant questions. Let’s try to get to know the person we are trying to set up and also the person we are trying to set that person up with. Let’s stop worrying so much about what is fair or not to the parents and worry more what is fair or not to the kids. Let’s not set them up for failure by allowing them these grandiose ideas and expectations and lets teach them to be more realistic especially where support and paying bills are concerned.
When speaking to parents be more direct and ask “what is your son/daughter looking for” and not what they are looking for. Ask more pertinent questions such as how “HE” plans on supporting his family or if he is going to be a long term learner how his parents are planning to support his choices. Stop kowtowing to the old school “the boys parents want support…..” that only breeds more problems, promises that are broken, and bills that haven’t a chance to get paid.
If support is offered and agreed upon by both sets of parents make a written agreement and include a time frame. you will be marrying off more children after this one.
If the young lady says she wants only a learning boy, then ask her the same question “how do you and your parents plan to support your choices? What happens when you start having children, what then? Are you prepared to have others raise your children? How much does daycare and babysitters cost? Do you know how much tuition costs? Do you think that you can bring in enough salary to cover all of that?
Then make realistic shiduchim. Stop trying to redt a learning boy on a girl who wants a boy to make a parnassah. I have heard that a million times “but he is such a great guy, such a catch, when she meets him she will change her mind”. Why should she change her mind? On the other hand if a young man wants to work and wants his children raised at home by his wife don’t redt him a young woman who is in medical school. She is most likely very serious about her career and won’t give it up to please him, and don’t ask either one to change their minds. Don’t put them in that position in the first place that they might like each other and then have to be frustrated that they are demanding that one give in.
In addition just because a young man is in yeshiva does not always make him a “learning boy”. Many really should pursue a parnasah and not burden their wive’s with it. If you are not living and breathing learning, if you do not think Torah all the time, then maybe you can learn part time and work part time or work and then have a shiur in the evenings.
Learn to listen to understand when speaking to young people so you actually hear what they are saying and what they are looking for. If a young girls sounds immature and sounds like she doesn’t know what she wants, she probably doesn’t so don’t waste the young men’s time with her. Same goes for the boys. And stop setting kids up on practice dates. No one appreciates being used and then turned down for a second date because it was the boy or girl’s first date and they are not going to settle on the person they go out with. Be prepared to like the first person you go out with.
And parents, you know best, if you know your kids are not ready, not mature enough, too interested in having fun or experiencing life before settling down, then don’t let other people talk you into setting them up because you are wasting the other young person’s time and draining their energy for dating. The dating process can be a very hard and hurtful experience for many. Not everyone can take rejection gracefully.