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The Mitzvah to Join the IDF
by Rabbi Eliezer MelamedThe writer is Head of Yeshivat Har Bracha and a prolific author on Jewish Law, whose works include the series on Jewish law “Pininei Halacha” and a popular weekly column “Revivim” in the Besheva newspaper. His books “The Laws of Prayer” “The Laws of Passover” and “Nation, Land, Army” are presently being translated into English.
The two mitzvot fulfilled by enlisting in the army are the mitzvah of fighting a war to assist Israel from an attacking enemy, and the mitzvah of settling the Land of Israel.
A mitzvah that cannot be performed by others, overrides Talmud Torah. In our current situation, the majority of yeshiva students must enlist, and only a few select students should be exempt.
There is no room for tirades against the new law which exempts almost 20% of yeshiva students from army service. Anyone who says there is no mitzvah to serve in the army is not an eminent Torah scholar. The Hareidi community should join the struggle for the sanctity of the IDF camp, so it will suit the absorption of Hareidi soldiers.
Must Yeshiva Students Enlist in the Army?
Q: Do yeshiva students have to enlist in the army, or are all Torah students exempt from military service – no matter how many they number?
A: The mitzvah to enlist in the army is based on two great mitzvot – hatzalat Yisrael (saving Israel), and yishuv ha’aretz (settling the Land of Israel). It should be noted that seventeen mitzvot from the Torah relate to the army, as listed by Rabbi Zevin in his book ‘L’Ohr Ha’Halakha’, where he thoroughly clarifies the mitzvah to enlist in the army. This issue was also expounded upon at length by Tzitz Eliezer, Rabbi Tzvi Yehudah HaKohen Kook in his book ‘L’Nityvot Yisrael’, and other gedolei Torah.
Saving Lives
It is well-known that it is a mitzvah for every Jew to save his fellow brother from danger, as the Torah says: “Do not stand still when your neighbor’s life is in danger” (Vayikra 19:16). And our Sages said in the Mishna: “Anyone who saves a single soul from Israel, he is deemed by Scripture as if he had saved a whole world” (Sanhedrin 4:5). We have also learned that in order to save a group of Jews, life is endangered and the Sabbath is desecrated (S.A., O.C. 329:6). How much greater the obligation is to participate in the rescue of the entire nation – namely, the mitzvah of fighting a war.
Or as Rambam wrote: “What is considered as milchemet mitzvah? … To assist Israel from an enemy which attacks them” (Laws of Kings 5:1). The difference between the mitzvah of fighting a war, as opposed to the standard mitzvah of saving a life, is that the mitzvah of fighting a war requires mesirut nefesh (self-sacrifice), and it overrides an individual’s obligation to protect his own life (Maran HaRav Kook, Mishpat Kohen 143; Responsa, Tzitz Eliezer 13:100).
Settling the Land of Israel
It is written in the Torah: “Take possession of the land and settle in it” (Bamidbar 33:53-54), and our Sages said that the mitzvah of yishuv ha’aretz is equal to all the mitzvot (Sifre, Re’eh, Parsha 53). This mitzvah overrides pikuach nefesh (saving the life) of individuals, seeing as we were commanded to conquer the Land of Israel, and the Torah did not intend us to rely on a miracle. And as there is no war without casualties, it follows that the mitzvah to conquer the Land obligates us to endanger lives for it. (Minchat Chinuch 425 and 604; Mishpat Kohen, pg.327).
The claim cannot be made that this mitzvah is not in force today, for the halakha follows the opinion of Ramban and the majority of poskim (Jewish law arbiters), that the mitzvah of yishuv ha’aretz remains in effect at all times.
There are some poskim who believe that in the opinion of Rambam, ever since the destruction of the Temple there is no mitzvah to conquer the Land of Israel. However, all agree that according to Rambam it is a mitzvah to live Eretz Yisrael, and consequently if after the Jewish nation is already living in the Land enemies come to conquer parts of it, the mitzvah of yishuv ha’aretz obligates us to fight in order to protect it, because it is forbidden to hand over parts of the Land of Israel to the Gentiles (as explained in the responsa ‘D’var Yehoshua’, section 2, O.C. 58, by Rabbi Yehoshua Ehrenberg, a posek and dayan of Belze Hassidim). This, in addition to the prohibition of abandoning parts of the Land of Israel to Gentiles on account of defense and security reasons (S.A., O.C. 329:6).
The Conflict between Talmud Torah and the Mitzvah of Army Service
Although the mitzvah of Talmud Torah is equal to all the mitzvot, the basic rule is that any mitzvah that cannot be performed by others’ overrides Talmud Torah (Mo’ed Katan 9a). The same holds true for enlisting in the army. When there are not enough soldiers for Israel’s security, Torah study is cancelled to serve in the army. In regards to the Torah and our Sages explanation (Sotah 44b) concerning the case of a man who had built a new house and not dedicated it, etc., being exempt from army enlistment, this refers to a milchemet reshut (an optional war). But when it comes to a milchemet mitzvah (an obligatory war), such as a war to rescue Israel from an enemy – “the entire nation must go out to war, even a groom from his chamber, and a bride from her pavilion”. This is also the ruling of Rambam (Laws of Kings 7:4).
We have also found that the students of Yehoshua bin Nun and King David went out to war without relying on miracles, and were not concerned about the neglect of Torah study (bittul Torah). Regarding the statement in the Talmud (Bava Batra 8a) that Torah scholars do not require protection, it is not referring to a situation of safek pikuach nefesh (a doubtful life-threatening situation), rather, Torah scholars are exempt from protection intended primarily to prevent theft. But when the lives of Jews need to be defended, it is a mitzvah to rescue them from danger – and with regards to the mitzvah of pikuach nefesh – it is a mitzvah for the greatest talmedei chachamin to act first (M.B. 328:34).
The Importance of Yeshiva Student’s Torah Study
Nonetheless, it is essential to know that the most important mitzvah is Talmud Torah and no other mitzvah guards and maintains the Jewish nation to the extent of Torah study. Therefore, along with the mitzvah to serve in the army, every Jew must arrange a number of years in his life which he devotes to Torah study, to the best of his ability. This is the meaning of our Sages statement: “The study of the Torah is superior to the saving of life” (Megilah 16b), because saving a life involves the momentary rescue of a human body, whereas Talmud Torah revitalizes the body and soul of the Jewish nation for the long duration.
When Necessary, Enlist; When Not, Defer
Practically speaking, when enlistment is necessary for the protection of the nation and the Land, the mitzvah of Talmud Torah does not override it, just as Talmud Torah does not override fulfilling the mitzvot of marriage, tzedakah, and additional mitzvot that cannot be performed by others. This was the instruction of our teacher and mentor, Rabbi Tzvi Yehudah HaKohen Kook ztz”l during the ‘War of Independence’, that yeshiva students must enlist in the army, because the situation at the time required the mobilization of all young men.
However, when there is no necessity to recruit all young men, then it is the duty of the Jewish nation to exempt students who are worthy of developing into Torah scholars for the sake of Clal Yisrael, so they can grow and become rabbis and educators – provided they do so with respect and amity towards the soldiers protecting our nation and country. For only Torah learning which stems from such a position can make a full contribution to raising the spirit and courage of Clal Yisrael.
In line with our rabbis teachings, and seeing as the State of Israel is surrounded by enemies, according to Torah instruction the majority of yeshiva students must perform a significant service in the army, similar to the service of Hesder yeshiva students or ‘Hesder Merkaz’ (a special program for Merkaz Harav yeshiva students), so they can integrate into the reserve forces, upon which the IDF bases its primary strength in time of war. However, those few students worthy of becoming important Torah scholars, and whose going out to war is likely to harm their studies, should continue learning in yeshiva for several, unlimited years, for the benefit of Clal Yisrael. Somewhat similar to our Sages statement that one thousand students enter for mikra (Tanach). From there, only one hundred go forth and succeed to be worthy of Mishna (the simple understanding of halakha). Of these one hundred, only ten go forth for Gemara (in-depth study), and of these ten, only one goes forth for hora’ah (teaching) (Vayikra Rabbah 2:1).
The New Law
The law in question broadens the opportunity of learning in yeshivas at the expense of army service and the public coffers. This stems from recognition of the importance of Torah study, and the national need to give greater weight to Torah learning in yeshivas following the spiritual and physical crisis the Jewish nation experienced in recent generations. Accordingly, the law grants full exemption from military service to roughly 20% of all yeshiva students. For this, the representatives of the hareidi community should have expressed gratitude to the Members of Knesset and the government, instead of crying needlessly, ranting, raving, and spreading lies, as if nowhere in the world were yeshiva students ever required to enlist in the army.
Anyone Who Says There is No Mitzvah to Serve in the Army is Not a Gadol
Q: Is it true you said that a gadol ba’Torah (an eminent Torah scholar) cannot possibly say there is no mitzvah to serve in the I.D.F.?
A: Indeed, anyone who says that it is not a mitzvah to serve in the I.D.F. cannot be considered a gadol ba’Torah. There might be a debate between gedolei ha’Torah about the number of yeshiva students who need to enlist; there could also be gedolei Torah who believe that in the present situation, which is not an immediate state of pikuach nefesh, it is better for Am Yisrael that all yeshiva students continue learning, including those who do not study diligently, because in the army they are liable to decline spiritually. And although we believe their opinion is mistaken, the debate remains within the framework of the details of the mitzvah and its obligation. But no gadol ba’Torah can possibly claim it is not a mitzvah to serve in the army, just as it is impossible to claim that a person who saves a human’s life, or settle’s the Land of Israel, does not fulfill a mitzvah. If he does make such a claim – this proves he is not gadol ba’Torah. According to my knowledge, the rabbis who are considered gedolei Torah in the Hareidi community, such as Rabbi Eliashiv ztz”l, Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach ztz”l, and Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef ztz”l, agreed that it is a mitzvah to serve in the army, and only opposed compulsory enlistment for yeshiva students at the present time. In contrast to them, members of Satmar who claim there is no mitzvah whatsoever to serve in the army cannot be considered eminent Torah scholars.
The Difficult Claim against the Hareidi Community
This is the difficult claim against the Hareidi community: why don’t they explicitly say that those serving in the army fulfill a mitzvah? Why don’t they pray for the welfare of the soldiers? One can argue about the need for yeshiva students to serve in the army, and claim that the mitzvah can be fulfilled by others, but how have they allowed themselves in heat of the debate to erase a mitzvah from the Torah?
This complaint is directed primarily to all the mashgichim (spiritual supervisors) and various spokesmen, however, the eminent Hareidi rabbis also bear responsibility. For various reasons, most of them avoid speaking about this great mitzvah, thereby giving room to the serious mistake of many of their students, who brazenly dare to claim that serving in the army is not a mitzvah.
Mobilization for Guarding the Sanctity of the Army Camp
If the representatives of the Hareidi community would invest even a tenth of the effort they devoted in the fight against enlistment to the struggle of preparing the army for the absorption of members of their own community, they would have been much more beneficial. Because then, the fear of the young men declining spiritually in the army would wane, and all those yeshiva students who do not study diligently could enlist in the army without fear; subsequently, most of the complaints against the Hareidi community would disappear.
At the same time, they would assist all those frustrated young men who are unable to find their place, and thus strengthen the IDF in terms of security and spirituality. Consequently, they would have a positive effect on the state of tzniyut (modesty) of all soldiers, and as a result on the entire country – not unlike the religious soldiers – the yeshiva students – that by means of their good example have already influenced the entire army today – until gradually the IDF will become much more fitting for religious individuals. And as the number of serious, observant soldiers increases, so will we merit greater sanctity of our military camp, and as a result, be privileged to see the Final Redemption, speedily in our days.
This article appears in the ‘Besheva’ newspaper, and was translated from Hebrew.
Avram, the whole world belongs to Hashem. So do all of your possessions (Haggai 2:8). However, Hashem gave us the use (Tehillim 115:16). That is why it is called Eretz Yisrael.
Chazal speak about the dangers of a talmid chacham who has bad middot. The Gaon (Even Sheleima 2) goes even further and says that unless a person consciously works hard to change his middot learning will make bad middot worse. This is why Torah is compared to water. It makes everything grow, both flowers and weeds.
Anon1m0us, it is not a blanket waiver. See Ramban on the parsha. The whole process was designed to throw cold water on the yetzer hara. BTW, after the Six Day War a French correspondent went to Gaza to collect atrocity stories. When they told him that there had been no rapes he wrote that Israelis are such racists they will not even rape Arab women. There was also an incident during the first Lebanon War where IDF soldiers walked into a grocery, took some groceries and then paid the owner what he said they cost. The IDF is the most moral army in the world. In fact, American generals complained about the high standard the IDF sets.
Moilech, on what basis do you have an opinion? Are you a senior security official? You don’t even know what you want to study yet.
As for control of Ha HaBayit, do you believe that it is ours? Do you believe that EY is ours? If not, what are you doing here?
5ish, you are correct. The Medina is about being the foundation of Hashem’s throne on Earth and a light unto the nations. This, however, unfolds gradually in stages (Yerushalmi Berachot 1,1). Already countries all over the world come to us for advice and seek good relations.
The Gra says that some of the erev rav appear quite religious.
Ubitquin,
2. I urge you to take a remedial reading course. I pointed out that you distorted the SA by truncating the halacha. It explicitly says that only foods necessary for life have a profit limit. I pointed out that today everything has substitutes and many people do not eat bread during weekdays. Some people never drink wine, which is also on the SA’s list. I also pointed out that free competition would keep prices down. The officers to whom the SA refers could be prosecutors who fight coercive monopolies.
3. Be pious with your own money, not with others’. When Avraham Avinu refused to take even a shoelace he also insisted that his soldiers receive their shares.
4. I do not believe that there is a view to favor unrestricted competition in America. Look at all the rent-seeking licensing laws. LA even has one for flower arrangers (it is being fought in the courts).
Actually, some courts have exonerated bullies on free speech grounds. See First Amendment experts weigh in on whether schools can suspend students for social media activity by Nour Habib in the Tulsa World.
Ubitquin,
2. yes.
3. “The Chavot Ya’ir reasons that David considers this trait a sign of piety precisely because it is technically permitted (as long as one is a local resident). David commends one who refrains from competing with his friend for going beyond the letter of the law.11 The Pitchei Teshuvah also cites the Beit Efrayim (Choshen Mishpat 26-27), who writes that common practice in his community was apparently not to follow the Aviasaf’s view. His community permitted entrepreneurs to open new hotels at the city gate, despite the fact that all who entered the city saw the new hotels before seeing the older hotels inside the city.12Some authorities are even more lenient about competition. The Beit Efraim (C.M. 26) rules against the Aviasaf’s view, and the Tel Aviv Beit Din (Piskei Din Rabbaniyim 4:9-32) also leans this way.”
LU,
2. It is impossible to run an army where everyone insists on a different hashgacha. The Army rabbinate will decide and disobeying will be considered mutiny.
3. There is no such thing as daat Torah regarding strategy and tactics. Rabbis will only pasken on military ethics – and they will have to have military experience or consult people who do.
5. Only if they have passed a very difficult exam given by the Army rabbinate. Even then they will be required to learn in army battei midrash, give shiurim to sodliers and publish peer-reviewed articles.
4. What about when they are in battle or on patrols?
7. Nonsense. Who decides who is more or less religious. Better a “less religious” officer who is better militarily.
8. What about when they are in battle or on patrols?
Mammele, I do not know how old you are but I am old enough (63) to remember the TV shows of yesteryear. They were squeaky clean (even the soap operas were nothing compared to what goes on today) and promoted family values and religion (Bonanza did have an episode that pushed “becoming modern” but The Donna Reed Show had a very positive episode about a girl who would not eat in theor house because it wasn’t kosher).
Ubitquin,
2. If there would be a coercive monopoly on water you would be correct(. However, in a free market for water competition would do the job. The latter is far preferable as the former causes shortages and black markets.
3.
a. I have stated before that hasagat gevul is related to property rights. Free enterprise also recognizes that one may not steal or commit fraud. However, the halachic definition of property is sometimes different than the American definition.
b. The article also brings Rav Soloveichik, the Beit Efraim (C.M. 26) and the Tel Aviv Beit Din (Piskei Din Rabbaniyim 4:9-32) as disagreeing. Kim li like them. Moreover, the article ends with the Aruch HaShulchan’s statement (C.M. 15:6) that present all cases must be presented to dayanim who are Torah scholars and who understand the intricacies of business. The Gra, in fact, states that a dayan must have wide secular knowledge in order to pasken correctly. Rav Kook also said that a bet din that decides labor disputes must have dayanim who are knowledgeable in Economics.Ubiquitin,
1. You need a remedial reading course. My point was that free enterprise lowered the prices.
2. You cannot. In a free market competitors would come and undersell you and you would be forced to lower your prices.
3.a. If there were no pizza the question would also not start. There is a heter iska and I could use it although I might not.
b. Yes. I may so long as I pay taxes and do not block your store. See Hasagat Gevul: Economic Competition in Jewish Law by Rabbi Chaim Jachter.4. On the contrary. Crony capitalism is regulation for the benefit of the cronies.
Ubiquitin
1. My father z”l bought the calculator in NYC. My point is that free enterprise is the most efficient way to keep prices down. The lot of the poor has increased tremendously under it. In fact, the poor today live much better than medieval kings. Price controls, on the other hand, cause shortages and black markets. Yes, the Halacha recognizes reality. The Gemara has many examples where takkanot were not instituted or repealed because of negative consequences.
2. Pills cost much more in the US because of crony capitalism. This is not free enterprise. If the price police the SA mentions would be engage in anti-coercive monopoly activities which promote competition they would serve the purpose of the halacha (see the Wikipedia article on antitrust laws in the US in the section on Theory).El Rushbo, that would have opened up a legal and halachic can of worms. LH and invasion of privacy for starters. It would have also exposed the writer to retaliation.
Ubitquin,
You truncated the halacha in the SA. It says “necessary for life” (שאין לו לאדם להרויח בדברים שיש בהם חיי נפש). Today as is well known that nothing is in that category as everything has substitutes. I personally have a friend whose wife never eats bread or matza except at the seder. I also do not eat bread on weekdays except for seudot mitzva (e.g. a siyum). I also know a bit about Jewish and general history and economics. Free enterprise results in lower prices. When I was in college forty-five years ago my father z”l bought me a simple four-function calculator for $85. Today, that same calculator costs $8.99 (I just checked) – despite the CPI is about 5.8 times higher. On the other hand, price controls always cause shortages and black markets – even where the latter was punishable by death. In Israel there was rational just after the State was established – and almost everyone was involved in the black market. Finally it had to be repealed.
The issur of ribbit is also mostly as inapplicable today as carrying on Shabbat. Every financial institution in Israel has a heter iska (and really it is not certain that a corporation needs one) just as every community (except for one moshav that has a large Karaite population) has an eruv. The issur of ribbit is in YOreh Deah and not Choshen Mishpat for a reason.
5ish, making aliya is kefira? That statement is kefira!
Ubiquitin,
That was said regarding small, closed communities living under hostile regimes that had no concept of the rule of law and extremely restrictive tariffs . In such a society there was no choice. Today we live in a global village with free trade agreements (BTW,Sefer Chassidim says about restrictions of trade “the land was filled with hamas”) and substitutes for everything. I, in fact, know people (including myself), who do not eat bread at all (almost) on weekdays.
I would like to suggest that hey way to carry out this halacha in our time is to deregulate the economy and allow the Invisible Hand (of Hashem) to do its work.
Iacisrmma, Rav Zafrani, who was Rav Mordechai Eliahu’s assistant, said that there are only one or two in a generation who have that width of knowledge. Moreover, there has to be an assumption that the gadol is not surrounded by courtiers who control what info he sees.
Little, could it be that these schools have superior secular studies programs? Of course, this might be a chicken-and-egg questions. The students who would prefer a public school because of the secular studies programs (and BTW, even fifty years ago the specialized high schools in NYC all had some frum students – I know this for a fact as I went to Bronx Science from ’68-’71) would not be accepted into Chareidi schools. The tuition bubble is also a major factor. I personally know families who made aliya because of this.
Kitov, that is a form of “lifnei iver”. Who says that what is right for Reuven is right for Shimon?
Yehudayona, was this the first nit you picked today? To show that there are no hard feelings I will pay you half of what the YWN paid me.
Golfer, actually it goes back to the deposing of Rabban Gamliel (Berachot 28a). The Gra says (Even Sheleima 2) that the Torah is compared to water because it makes everything grow – flowers and weeds. However, the Torah scholarship is not an inheritance (Nedarim 81a). By “elite” I meant someone who is superior in his own right.
M,
1. Women would not join. However, they would do national service and free up men.
2. On Shabbat they would fight. Did you ever hear about pikuach nefesh?
3. Maybe they would make it 20-60.
4. In a milchemet mitzva everyone is drafted. Perhaps the most outstanding talmidim would be chaplains and write sefarim on halachic issues in the army.Mod, don’t you mean a toen rabbani?
Yes. That’s what I meant
Poppa, it depends on whether dogs are keilim. Rav Moshe has a teshuva which Rav Eliezer Melamed brings that they are keilim for petting and therefore not muktza. However, Shemirat Shabbat k’Chilkata is machmir. If the dog is a keli than gets the next lower level of tuma you have. For example, If you are an av (e.g. if you were in a Jewish cemetery) once you pet him he is a rishon. Someone else who pets him would become a sheni.
Ubitquitin,
1. I was suggesting lowering her sights and sending her to a less academically demanding school. Are there no such schools? My analogy should have been obvious.
2. The very strong implication was that the suicide was because of this.
3. She wrote that she changed some of the facts.
4. Obviously the writer thinks that an acceptance was coming to her.Golfer,Talmidei chachamim have always looked down on amei aratzot. See Pesachim 43b. This exists in all societies and in both directions. In college towns there are tensions between the college people and the “townies”. Rabin hated Peres because the latter never served in the military (this is very common and there are also rivalries between different services and intelligence agencies). Even in socialist movements there were tensions between intellectuals and workers. I myself was rejected for a summer job driving a taxi because the boss did not like “college boys”.
The fact of the matter is that elite schools, both in secular and Torah studies, are necessary to develop those who are gifted. This is why NYC has specialized schools and why the business community donates to them. A person who is not accepted should be sameach b’chelko and move on.CTl, now you are saying something else. People should forget about law schools unless they are super-geniuses, rich or live (or can live) in or near Queens (CUNY has a law school where the tuition and fees are only $7,331.45 for NYS residents and $11,991.45 for non-NYS residents. While it is a super-leftist school it may or may not have a Federalist Society chapter – it is not listed on the school’s site but is on the Society’s site – as well as a Jewish Lawyers Society chapter alongside Students for “Justice” in “Palestine”).
Yehudayona, not being clairvoyant I do not know his reasons but I agree with you on this. In fact, the Israel Anti-Drug Authority has recommended adopting the Portuguese plan. I would also add that it is disappointing that Sessions opposes reigning in asset forfeiture (although personally I find it very suspicious that people drive around with tens of thousand of dollars in cash).
What does “unfavorable scholastic achievements” mean? Did she get poor grades? If so, I don’t see why other parents should care. However, her parents should have explained to her that she would not succeed in a school that demands scholastic excellence and looked for a less demanding school. What do you want? That she should be given good grades just to make her feel better? I went to public schools in NYC. I was accepted into a “specialized” HS but only received middling grades there. I accepted the fact that while I was not exactly the tail of a lion I was far from the head. For this I thank my father z”l who told me at a very young age that no matter how good you are there is somebody better. Some of my friends were not accepted so they went to a regular HS. That’s the way the ball bounces. Some of them are now doing much better financially than me so it seems that Hashem really does decide how much parnassa each person gets.
On the other hand “unfavorable scholastic achievements” could be a euphemism for disruptiveness (“some of the details were altered”). If she indeed committed suicide over this apparently she was not very stable. This would explain the opposition of the other parents. IMHO if so they were right. They do not have to endanger their children because one girl’s parents miseducate her and will not seek proper help to undo the damage.
A man I knew who lived to be 88 said that you are not old if you have plans for the future.
AY, many gedolim supported it.
Joseph,
a. I see that you are a baal hotzaat shem ra. In other words, you have an ownership interest in HSR.
b. The Maharal does not say that. On the contrary, he says that the oath not to make aliya en masse is connected to their oath not to persecute us “too much”. It is pure nonsense to say that they are yehareg v’al yaavor. Only the three cardinal sins are in that category (or any other mitzva that they are trying to force us to violate in order to destroy Judaism) – and that is to what he is referring.
c. I have already refuted the claims about the three oaths in this venue several times. For your benefit I will repost.
1. The pesukim cited refer to the kelei hamikdash, not the people.
2. They are aggadata. Aggadata cannot be understood literally (Rambam, Intro. to Perek Chelek). See also Responsa Chatam Sofer OC 51 at the end – and also note that the Maharshal has separate perushim on Halacha and Aggadata).
3. They are not brought down in any of the codes.
4. According to Rav Chaim Vital they were only for 1,000 years (Intro. to Sefer Etz Chaim 8).
5. According to Rav Meir Simcha the San Remo conference repealed them as the other nations agreed.
6. According to Rav Soloveichik (Kol Dodi Dofek) Hashem has called.
7. The other nations violated their oath not to persecute us too much on several occasions (Crusades, Chmielnitzky massacres, pogroms, Petlura massacres, Holocaust). Thus, the deal is off (Sotah 10a with Rashi d”h huchal shevuato shel Avimelech and Shulchan Aruch YD 236,6).CTl, as I recalled when you first mentioned your new associates you said that they will also have the option of corporate legal departments. I presume that they pay much more than government agencies.
If there are no specifics how can anyone render an opinion?
Forshayer, it is not a good idea to give a dog chicken bones as they are small and can get stuck in his throat. I also hope for your neighbors’ sake that they did not bark.
CTl,
1. That means that they will be making much more than there peers who remained in public service.
2. How is having to justify an indictment to supervisors better than having to justify it to a grand jury?Iacisrmma, you are correct but the pension (assuming one worked five years, which is the minimum for vesting) is based on years of service and final salary . That means that the pensions they will receive thirty years down the line will be very small and even smaller if inflation reawakens.
Yehudayona,
1. I second you. I personally was never on a jury although I almost was (after I was selected the judge decided the split the trials of the two defendants and dismissed us) but my father a”h was on both a state jury and a Federal grand jury. From what he told me it was very fair. In fact, the state jury was going to acquit except that the defendant said to the complainant at the stationhouse “I didn’t rob your store” without being told that he was specifically accused of that.
2. So? Kim lei b’d’rabba minei. Learn the third perek of Makkot and you will see that in Halacha we also pile on every possible aveira (the record is six for eating a wasp – Makkot 16b).Yytz, no system administered by human beings can be perfect. I consider it unfair that prosecutors have to turn over exculpatory info but defense attorneys may not reveal the reverse. What are “overly punitive laws and unfair policing practices” is also in the eye of the beholder. At least at one time Manhattan prosecutors considered themselves lucky to get convictions because juries identified with the defendants. In fact, the reason why the British did not introduce it in EY was that they thought that Jewish jurors would automatically acquit Jews and Arab jurors would automatically acquit Arabs. They had three-judge panels with one Jew, one Arab and one Britisher. The majority decided. As for highest percentage of citizens incarcerated, the US is No. 41 in overall crime rate and No. 14 in violent crime rate.
Joseph, cite your source in the Maharal.. As for V’yoel Moshe, Rav Menachem Kasher refuted it in HaTekufa HaGedola. Are you saying that the Maccabees violated the Torah?
As for the question on the virtual floor, the Chafetz Chaim wrote a sefer called “Machane Yisrael” for Jewish soldiers in European armies. There is also a book on military ethics called אתיקה צבאית יהודית by Ido Rechnitz and Elazar Goldstein. It can be purchased online.
Iacisrmma, benefits are not what they used to be and only are good if one stays for life. Apparently they do not make up for the salary differential for most people as in NYC they have to demand a three-year commitment in order to justify the expense of training people.
CTl,
1. Where can your associates expect to be in five years and where can a prosecutor who stays expect to be?
2. How is the prosecutor’s ability to indict without even a grand jury better for the defendant?
3. Obviously in a large city there will be much more work. That is part of being in a city. Everything is a trade-off. See Ketubot 110b.
4. A. Paul Spinella, who is a defense attorney, of the Hartford Courant does not share your view of the system (Reanimate Grand Jury, State Prosecutor System).
CTl, electing vs. appointing DAs and judges can swing both ways. In a liberal jurisdiction being lenient will get a person kudos (as is happening in Manhattan and Brooklyn). On the other hand, someone who is appointed will be expected to give patronage (BTW, NY actually has a hybrid system as lower court judges are elected but generally picked by agreement among party leaders – Rachel Freier had tremendous siata d’Sehmaya in her uphill battle). While the US may or may not be bound by Halacha in this matter (there is a machloket regardingthe mitzva of dinim) both Abarbanel and Rav Hirsch say regarding “Shoftim v’shotrim tasimu) that the Supreme Court should be elected. Abarbanel even says that the lower court judges should be elected although Rav Hirsch says that they are chosen by the Supreme Court.
In any case, according to what I have read (and you can ask your brother to confirm or deny), prosecution offices everywhere suffer from a lack of support staff and relatively low salaries. This would indicate that those who stay are either independently wealthy, have highly paid spouses or are very idealistic. So far as the general balance is concerned, a prosecutor is required to hand over exculpatory info whereas a defense attorney may not reveal damaging info.
Pigs are hypocrites. They have cloven hooves but do not chew the cud. They are kosher outside but not inside. In any case, there is only a prohibition against owning non-kosher animals whose meat is eaten. It is part of the gezeira against making business out of non-kosher meat(as opposed to selling meat that was later found to be tereif).
ColumbiaGrad, “gentile” is simply the English translation of “goy”. Pejoratives tend to change with the time and place. At one time “Jew” was a pejorative. The polite words were “Hebrew” and “Israelite”. “Zhid” is a pejorative in Russian but not in Polish. BTW, someone once told me that he was reprimanded for saying “non-Jew”. His interlocutor resented being described according to what she is not. How about the academic “Noahide”? People will be too busy looking it up to be insulted. However, “shaigetz” and “shiksa”are pejoratives no matter how you slice it as they come from “shaketz”.
Wrong, Mentsch. There is an obligation to give food. One can give the person food from one’s refrigerator or take him to a restaurant. BTW, my grandfather a”h once made the latter offer and was told that the person davka wanted money. Draw your own conclusion.
Yytz,
1. Rav Moshe did not share your rav’s concern (IM CM 2:68). BTW, a ben Noach can be executed (according to the Chelkat Yoav and Rav Aharon Soloveichik that is only a maximum penalty) for violating any of the sheva mitzvot. If a person goes down to the level of murder he has certainly already violated several of them.
2. The Torah system is only for a time when Am Yisrael are all tzaddikim and crime is very rare (Maharal, Chiddushei Aggadot Makkot 7a). In “normal” times it would result in hefkerut (Ran, Derasha 11).
3. Who says that there are no attorneys. The witnesses are also accusers and according to Prof. Nahum Sarna there was a public prosecutor in Tanachic times whose title was Satan (which can mean “accuser” or “enemy”). Chazal speak of kategors and senigors in Heaven so apparently it was in use in their time. They also say that anyone, including the judges, can speak for against the defendant (Sanhedrin 32a).
4. One can also say the opposite. Being that the prosecutor does not want a loss he will decline to prosecute, as is his right, where he does not think that there is a strong chance of obtaining a conviction.
5. The defense attorney’s job is also to see that justice is done and not rack up acquittals. However, he is just a macho as the prosecutor. In amany case he is even a former prosecutor who decided to make more money.
Yitz,
1. And it is a defense lawyer’s job to free his client so he is also overzealous by your definition. So are plaintiffs’ and defendants’ lawyers in civil suits. So are insurance adjusters as their job is to lessen the company’s liability. so are actuaries, accountants and just about everybody else. Sorry. Does not hold water.
2. Relevance to the “lower-class” people to whom you referred.
3. The requirement for documentation.
4. Guilty by association? So Joe McCarthy was right?
5. How about something that you can read for yourself? Look up the Gemara in Nida 61a regarding Rabbi Tarfon and the Galileans who were wanted for murder. In any case, it is a sevara. If someone is guilty ofthe crime for which he is imprisoned he is not a captive. He is a criminal being punished for his crime. There was also the case of Rabbi Eliezer b’Rabbi Shimon who turned over thieves for execution (Baba Metzia 63b). See ממה חשש ר’ טרפון? / יעקב צ. מאיר.
Yitz,
1. How do you define “overzealous”?
2. Unfortunately I had experiences with this type in my youth.
3. You still have not answered my question about white-collar cases.
4. While it is true that YCT lists him on their “rabbinic advisory board” at the beginning of the article he only lists positions at Stern College (which machshirs him in my book) – and BTW, the YU website has his shiurim and Columbia and NYU law schools. While Rabbi Weiss has moved significantly to the left it could be that Rabbi Berman did not. In any case, he was quoting Rav Soloveichik.Yitz, you are correct. This is why the secular authorities are not bound by halachic requirements. Rambam even allows capital punishment according to circumstantial evidence (Guide 3:40).
As for criminal defendants being “low-class”, that is only true regarding street crime. Moreover, the probability is very high that they are, in fact, guilty. Even if some are not guilty of the specific crimes charged they very likely committed similar crimes but were not caught.Joseph,
1. Please cite your sources for your statistics. In particular, cite statistics for white-collar crime as there prosecutors must supply documentary evidence.
2. Regarding Rabbi Berman, you are over on hotza’at shem ra. Kol ha posel b’mumo posel.
3. If you do want to posel someone, why not mention that Sheldon Silver pushed through the NYS toeva marriage bill saying “This is a matter of equity and justice. New Yorkers should have the right to marry whom they chose. Partners unable to enter into a civil marriage, and their children, lack basic legal protections taken for granted by married couples.”3. Actually it was Hillel and he did not “come up” with anything. That is a Conservative contention. He only activated a possibility that always existed.
4. Once again, capitalism is the system of private ownership of the means of production. Regarding the definition of a free market, see the Wikipedia article, which gives two opinions. An example of socialism would be a government pizza authority – which would probably make lousy pizzas (when they are available) except, of course, for party members. As George Orwell wrote in Animal Farm everyone is equal but some are more equal (In Hebrew it is even better:
כולם שווים אבל יש ששווים יותר),5. Onaat mammon is fraud. However, if the seller says that the market price (if there is a market price) is such and such but he charges more (or vice versa) there is no onaah.
Mammele,
1. Actually the appeals court said that they do not know if Silver would have been convicted under the SCOTUS rules.2. It does not mean that he did not commit the murder. It just means that so much time has passed that it is not possible to re-try him.
3. Your contention about pidyon shevuim is incorrect. For example, Rabbi Tarfon refused to help Jews suspected of murder. According to Rashi he only suspected them of guilt. Tosafot and Maharshal disagree but also say that if he had known that they were guilty he would not have been allowed to save them. According to Rabbi Saul Berman (Boundaries of Loyalty: Testimony against Fellow Jews in Non-Jewish Courts p. 221 – available online as a Google book) Rav Soloveichik ruled that once someone has been properly charged, convicted and sentenced by an American court there is no mitzva of p”s harsh prison conditions notwithstanding.
3. Not at all. The halacha differentiates between charity and business loans.
4. You keep trying to put the chainek back up. if the new guy lives in the city or at least pays taxes and does not block the way to the existing store, and certainly if he sells specialty pizzas, it is muttar. While there are some restrictions are simply protections of proprietary rights. See Hasagat Gevul: Economic Competition in Jewish Law by Rabbi Chaim Jachter (on-line).
Joseph, there are also many retired people who actually volunteer for jury duty. In any case, there must be some system. Dinim is one of the sheva mitzvot. It seems to me that you are simply engaging in identity politics (compare your virtual conviction of the Kushners).
Akuperma, as a matter of fact, Abarbanel says that all judges should be elected (Rav Hirsch says only the Supreme Court – they then choose the lower court judges).
Joseph,
1. Once again you demonstrate lack of Torah knowledge. The secular authorities have the right and obligation to punish people according to their own standards of proof (see CM 2). Rav Moshe even wrote in a letter to then NY Gov. Hugh Carey in support of the death penalty (IM CM 2:68). The reason, as I understand it, is that the bet din’s job is to enable the sinner to atone whereas the secular court’s job is to maintain public order.
2. Even in Halacha there is the concept of a “kol shelo posek” or “kol ha’am meranninim”.
Shmerel, I find that hard to believe. A melamed who does not perform well can be fired without notice because the damage he does is irreparable. In certain case he can even be fired in the middle of his contract. You can also google חמדת משפט: פיטורי מורה בשל מחלוקת חינוכית עם הנהלת המוסד for another pesak din.