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Mdd,
1. Not at all. Any leader must be acceptable to the public
(Berachot 55a). If it is an obligatory mitzva why did they wait 355 years? Why did Gideon refuse to be king? Why was Shmuel unhappy with their request? For that matter, Abarbanel prefers a republican form of government and effusively praises the systems in Florence and Venice in his time. According to Rav Kook (Mishpat Cohen 144?14) that any leader accepted by the people has considered a king for his functions it is not a problem. The mitzva is to appoint a national leader. If he is a king he has certain dinim that a judge or nasi does not have.
2. True. However the number of qualified people today is certainly very large.
Mdd, it is a conditional mitzva. Here is the language of the Netziv (He’emek Devar Devarim 17,14):
???, ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ????, ??? ‘????? ????? ???’; ???? ???? ????? ??”? ?????? ????? ???! ??? ??, ??? ???? ‘?????’?
?????, ????? ?????? ?????? ?????, ?? ????? ?? ?? ??? ????? ?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ????????, ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ?????, ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ??????, ???? ?? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?? ????? ???, ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???, ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???, ?? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???, ?? ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ????????? ??????? ???? ???? ????, ?? ?? ????? ??? ???????? ????? ???.
As for David and his descendants, statistically all of us are probably his descendants. Only cohanim and levi’im are definitely not through a continuous line of males. Moreover, Rambam says that a son only inherits his father’s position if he is like him in yirat Shemayim (Hilchot Melachim 1,7).
Charlie,
1. That is only if the people want such a system. However, if the people do not positions to be held for life and passed on by inheritance they can set up a system where there are no sarrarot, only public servants (Rav Shaul Yisraeli, Havat Binyamin 1,12 p. 92).
2. Abarbanel’s problem with monarchy is that he saw it as always degenerating into tyranny.
3. In the ideal system, which Rambam says will be in place in Mashiach’s time, all these taxes will be paid voluntarily. No need for audits, fines or imprisonment.
Avram, criminals will always find ways to get weapons. They can even make them themselves. Even teen gangs can make zip guns. Moreover, various and sundry implements can be used as weapons for both murder and suicide. This is how Abe Reles became known as “Kid Twist”.
Ideally it should be Anarch-Capitalism. Each person under his own vine and fig tree keeping mitzvot because Hashem said to keep them. Practically, it is whatever the people want (He’emek Devar Devarim 17,14).
NYC has one of the strictest laws in the world but that never stopped criminals. Israel has gun control but if one lives in an area or considered dangerous, is/was a reserve office in the IDF and has a clean record one can get a permit fairly easily yet the murder rate is very low, especially when factoring out terrorism, underworld hits and “family honor” killings.
America has a huge population so statistically there will be more people who go nuts. Also the mentality regarding violence is very important.
Joseph,
If they are OTD why don’t they do a regular IDF program? As for being ” dropouts” or “guys with problems” are you admitting that not everyone should learn full-time?
Just out of curiosity, what is your heter for being motzi shem ra on a whole group of Jews? If you do not have one you must come to EY and ask forgiveness from each NC guy.
DY, what if she does not want to cross?
“Daat Torah” is generally understood to mean that the rav also paskens on non-halachic matters. For example, what kind of car to buy and whether or not to accept the offer of financing deal to by an apartment (some years ago, in a major blow for the idea of DT, a contractor went bankrupt leaving Chareidi buyers who listened to rabbanim and accepted a discount in return for giving up the usual bank guarantees in the lurch).
Joseph, what is important is that Hashem recognized and continues to recognize it.
Nothing. The UN is irrelevant. As Ben-Gurion said, Oom (the Hebrew acronym for the UN) schmoom.
The following appears on the Arutz Sheva English site:
For months, the haredi officer charged with integrating religious soldiers into the army has endured an unending barrage of harassment and defamation from radical elements within the community opposed to service in the IDF.
On Wednesday, however, the efforts to force the officer to either abandon his position or leave the haredi community ratcheted up dramatically.
His wife and children discovered the frame of the front door had been damaged, and that the lock of the front door had been glued, rendering it inoperable.
They later discovered black paint splashed on the floor of the apartment building near the entrance of their home.
[paint]
Despite the attack on their home, the family remains determined not to cave in to the pressure.
[of vandals]
No surprise. They have to consider the hooligans in their camp. Even Rav Eliashiv was stoned (after he reached an agreement on moving graves).
AY,
1. There is no such obsession. In fact, this will clear outthe dead wood and turn them into live wood in another framework.
2. If you want to use the Technion example then have the Rabbanut give exams just as the Technion has entrance exams.
3. As for your fallacious example about appreciating talmidei chachamim, if they have not learned this by age 18 then the Chareidi yeshiva system is a complete failure.
4. FYI, there is forced conscription. Moreover, some people want to be forced so that they have an excuse. This, in fact, is what American olim do to avoid losing their US citizenship.
5. What other harangues do you propose?
DY, almost doesn’t count except in Horseshoes and hand grenades. The fact is that someone who is not cut out to be a talmid chacham will not apply himself. Hashem does not giev out talents and desires for no reason.
MW,
The Rambam clearly states in Mishna Torah that there is no need for a navi or Sanhedrin in the case of a milchemet mitzva ?? ?(http://www.hebrewbooks.org/rambam.aspx?sefer=14&hilchos=83&perek=5&halocha=2&hilite=).
2. ???”? ??? ?????? ?????????”? ??? ????? ??? ?
[????? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ??????? ????? ????? ????? “??? ???? ?? ????] ??? ?????? ????????”. ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ????, ??????? ??????, ??? ????: “???? ?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ???” ???’, ??? ????? ???? ????. ?????? ??? ?????, ????? ????? ?????? ???????: “??? ?? ???? ??? ?’ ????? ??, ?? ???? ??? ???”. ????? ???: “?????? ?’ ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???”. ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???, ???? “????? ?? ?? ?’ ??????”, ??? “?? ?????”, ????? ???? ?????, ?? ????? ??????.
??????? “????? ????? ?????”, ???? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ??????. ??? ???? ?????: “?? ????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????” ???’, “??? ???: ?? ????? ?????? ??? ???????? ????, ??? ?? ????. ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ????: ‘?????? ???? ?????? ???????’, ???? ??: ‘?? ????? ???” ???’. ?????: “??? ????: ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????, ???? ????? ?????? ??? ????: ??? ??? ??? ?????, ?????? ????: ??????? ??? ?????, ???? ????? ????? ???? ????; ???? ?? ??? ??”. ??? ????????? ?????? ??? ??????.
3. HeEmek Devar Devarim 17,14: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14021&st=&pgnum=157
4. Saying that it is a mitzva to go to war is the same as saying that it is a milchmmet mitzva. No amount of sophistry will change that.
5. The point is that there was no navi in Rabbi Akiva’s time. In fact, I heard that the 12,000 pairs of talmidim who died were two groups. One went into the army and one did not. neither respected the other’s position.
6. The poskim to whom you refer were talking about those who are really learning not merely listed. I am sure that if there would be military bet midrash where they would learn for the success of the IDF like other support units those poskim would have no problem. There are also the hesder and mechina models, which could be extended to the Charedi sector. This, in fact, would save many boys who are not built for full-time learning and wind up preying on their own communities for lack of an outlet. I personally was witness to the beginnings (I ran for my life) of a rumble between the “shabab Chareidi” and the tzeniut patrol when I lived in Bnei Beraq.
7. No one has a problem with a private person supporting a bachur or anyone else he wishes to support. However, if the tzibbor is going to support someone and also release him from obligations the tzibbor has the right to make sure that they are not being cheated. In fact, Chazon Ish, Rav Shachand Rav Wolbe all condemned those who are using yeshivot to getout of the IDF but are not learning. I heard that the CI even said that they should be reported to the authorities. Rav Tzvi Yehuda Kook, as I previously posted, gave each bachur a personal pesak. Some were told to enlist and some were told not to.
DY, obviously Rav Moshe was talking about someone who has a future as a talmid chacham (see Taanit 21a).
DY,
1. I was referring to Rambam’s statements regarding a milchemet mitzva.
2. The Kesef Mishna only says that a rav who teaches others may receive payment. In any case, today he can publish books and receive royalties, receive a salary from the yeshiva, etc. Of course, if someone is receiving aid anyway because he cannot find a job, has a disability, etc. should go and learn to his ability.
147, you should learn American slang before you use it. “Frame” means to cause an innocent person to be blamed for a crime.
Scared, he violated the terms of his probation for fraud.
Scared, this is a new one on me. Please give details.
MW,
In Mishna Tora he clarifies that “war” refers to a milchemet reshut and “conquering cities” means outside EY. You still have not defined a talmid chacham. It is certainly not some butterfly (the Israeli slang expression) who is officially listed as a talmid but goofs off. In practice, Rav Tzvi Yehuda (Kook) gave a personal pesak to each talmid in his yeshiva. Moreover, you have not dealt with the suggestion for establishing military battei midrash whose students will be officially part of the IDF like other support troops learn for the success of the combat troops. Asfor Rav Moshe’s teshuva, with all due respect he is a daat yachid. It is also very puzzling as Rabbi Akiva and his colleagues supported Bar Kochba. Moreover, it is against Rambam, Ramban (in his Sefer HaMitzvot), the Ran and the Netziv as I previously posted.
Charlie, so you’re saying that it comes down to who looks better in an orange jumpsuit? Trump, if he violated the law (a proof of a quid pro quo is needed), is small potatoes compared to Hillary. Her rap sheet includes unethical behavior as a Watergate committee staffer, participation in the Whitewater fraud, laughing about using a technicality to get a rapist acquitted (and violating attorney-client privilege in the process), accomplice to the murders of American diplomats, endangering national security through misuse of an unsecured server
Even better, why not privatize all of the pools and beaches? Why is this a municipal function? However, that will not end anti-“discrimination” suits, as Xtian bakers have discovered.
AY, that subject has not been broached up to now. Yes, they should be checked. In fact, IDF spies follow girls who claim to be religious and woe to the girl who rides on Shabbat or eats in a non-kosher restaurant. As for the students, athletes, artists and entertainers, the students only receive a deferment if they go into the academic reserves. After they receive their degrees they serve in their professions, mainly in technical positions. Athletes, so far as I know, are not exempted. In fact, in one famous case an athlete left the country in order to avoid the draft. Ditto artists. With entertainers you have it backwards. They are noticed and put into entertainment units boosting morale. After their service they go pro.
In any case, you are using the same fallacious argument that people who rip off government programs in the US use. Other ethnic groups do it so there is nothing wrong with Jews doing it. I once asked someone if Jews should also mug people. Of course, he did not have an answer.
Sam, the most an independent can do is throw the election into the House. All that has been written about Trump is true but Clinton is just as bad. She was fired from the Watergate committee staff for unethical behavior, participated in the Whitewater fraud, caused the deaths of American diplomats and laughed about getting a rapist off scot-free by taking advantage of a prosecutor’s error (which may have been a breach of attorney-client privilege). However, Trump is in favor of building settlements and his adviser on Israel is a frum Jew who heads the American Friends of the Bet-el Yeshiva. That makes him our bum (to paraphrase FDR’s comment about Somoza).
MW,
The requirement for a Sanhedrin and Navi only refers to milchemet reshut not a milchemet mitzva (Ramban, Hilchot Melachim 5:2; Ran, Derash 11; Netziv, He’emek Devar, Deavrim 17:14; Rav Kook, Mishpat Cohen 144)
Rav Herzog (Heichal Yitzchak OC 31 and 38), the Tzitz Eliezer (3:9:10, 3:10, 7:48:12) and Rav Ovadia (Yabia Omer 10 CM 6:23 on the Entebbe operation) say that Israel’s wars have been milchemot mitva.
DY & MW,
1. Yes we do pasken that Rambam.
2. Who is a talmid chacham? Some bachur who spends half his time at the coffee corner, reading newspapers and demonstrating? If the tzibbor is going to give them a deferment the Chief Rabbinate should be the body to see if they are really learning. Moreover, if they are serious about being part of the military effort they should dedicate their learning to it seriously.
Joseph, the Rema only brings that as a “yesh omrim”. Stam v'”yesh omrim”, halacha k’stam – and what about Sepharadim? In any case, if the tzibbor is going to pay them it should be able able to make sure that it is not being cheated through audits (without warning so that there is no time to pad the bet midrash) and exams.
I asked a rav and he told me that two people should not say a beracha at once even if they are two men. I presume that that is because of “trei kallei la shaamei” (two voices are not heard) so they did not motzi the listeners. However, it probably does not possel the kiddushin. In general, berachot are not me’akev.
5miyodeya, I wrote that if it is an “English-speaking” position being Hebrew-impaired will not make a big difference. However, if I were hiring for a position where people would have to participate in meetings and deal with Hebrew documents I would consider it a major black mark. In any case, you really should make an effort to learn and use Hebrew. Just as one who plans on living in America has an obligation to learn and use English so too one who plans to live in Israel should learn and use Hebrew.
Nechomah, only the French and Ethiopians do that. Israelis hug each other.
Joseph, that in itself is an anti-Semitic comment.
He is referring to getting a job vs. learning full-time. BTW, here is what he says about someone who wants to take welfare l’chatchila in order to learn full-time:
Actually, many non-frum Israelis know about it. In fact, the secretary in a former workplace of mine once told me that she does not extend her hand to observant men. Your rusty Hebrew is a much bigger problem unless you are interviewing for an “English-speaking job” (e.g. dealing with international business). In America someone who does not speak good English will not get a decent job except in a company owned by people who speak his first language so too in Israel.
Rambam, Hilchot Melachim 5:1 and 7:4. Of course, not everyone is a combat soldier. IMHO, those who are superior learner (according to objective exams administered by the IDF rabbinate) can form a “cheil haTalmud”, learn for the success of the IDF and give shiurim (something like the mashuach milchama). See “On Yeshiva Men Serving In The Army” by Rabbi Alfred S. Cohen, available on-line.
Blubuh, that is the chance you take when you accept a request for an estimate without asking for an examination fee (which I believe is the custom). What about a case that occurred in an office in which I worked: A repairman was called in to fix the microfilm machine. He came and saw that the only problem was that the lens was not in place. He charged $25 (almost forty years ago) for making an office call.
Joseph & Yehudayona, the opposite is also true. Many children who are halachically Jewish think that they are not because they are being raised in their fathers’ religions.
Akuperma, while I do not know of statistics, it makes sense that OTDs will want to preserve those aspects of their former lives that they enjoyed. Some, BTW, eventually come back (I personally know one), in some case to another stream of Orthodoxy (e.g. Chassidic to MO). As for not being distinguished from goyim, it takes several generations of assimilation to lose all of the little thinks (manner of speech, body language, etc.) that come from the national aspect that is not connected to free choice (see Rav Soloveichik, “Two Beritot”) make us distinguishable.
Joseph, I think he means the part about safek goy. However, if one holds like Rav Moshe 9an certainly at least b’diavad we do) if someone’s parents were not frum most likely the kiddushin was not valid. In fact, someone told me that before he became BT he was a witness at his sister’s wedding.
Nishtdayngesheft, you are not correct. For simplicity’s sake let’s say that we start with two Jewish males and two Jewish females and that one male and one female intermarry. The children of the non-intermarried male will be halachically Jewish and all of the children of the females will be Jewish. If each has two children that menasthat 75% of their children will be Jewish. This is assuming a numeric equality between males and females. However, in the US there are .88 males for every female in the 15-64 age group. This means that a higher percentage of halachic Jews can be expected. While intermarriage rates among non-Orthodox Jews are above 50% this may well be outweighed by OTDs (approxiamately 17% of the Orthodox population).
I do not see anything wrong with giving an animal a name. If Adam haRishon gave each species its name why can’t we give them individual names? However, putting them on the same level as humans is wrong and dangerous. As for Harambe, how did the kid get into his cage? Someone was negligent. BTW, when someone’s animal dies on says ????? ???? ?? ?????? (Berachot 16b).
Akuperma, maybe it’s a chicken-and-egg issue but I think that cultural assimilation played a big role in the lessening of anti-Semitism in America. Even the Nativists did not generally espouse racial theories regarding different European peoples but feared the introduction of non-Anglo-Saxon cultural and political values. Anti-Semites did not want to hire or live among Jews because they perceived us as having negative, or at least different, personal characteristics and cultural values.When Jews became Americanized that changed.
Crawley, Actually, an OECD poll showed that Israelis are among the happiest in the world (#5 after Denmark, Iceland, Switzerland and Finland). Israel is one of the best places to raise children (#4 after Austria, Sweden and Finland according to the Family Life Index). It has one of the best medical systems(#28 on the WHO list). You are over on the sin of the spies. Or you are overcompensating for guilt feeling at not living here.
Charlie, you are simply ignorant of the facts regarding Jim Crow. It was enshrined in state and local law and enforced by terrorist and semi-terrorist organizations such as the KKK and WCC. Thus, there was no free market.
Is a Jew allowed to buy from someone who supports Bernie Sanders?
CA, they get their kicks forcing Jews to bake cakes for their events. All Nazis are crazy. It is a tautology.In any case, this is only a paradigm. The general question is the right of religious people to refrain from participating in toeva “weddings”.
Joseph, what about people who send their kids to Orthodox schools who are dishonest in business, say lashon hara (I even know someone who imitates the accents of gedolei Tora and another who tells insulting jokes about various communities because they thinks it is funny), use bad language, etc.? The Gra says (Even Sheleima 2) that if someone has naturally bad middot learning Tora will actually make him worse. This is why Tora is compared to water. It makes everything grow. As for children who go to public school, would you differentiate between playing in your home and in theirs as perhaps the other kids will be influenced? What would you tell someone who has close non-frum relatives?
MW13, the mishna in Avot refers to an individual and his individual status. It does not make blanket assumptions.
CA, maybe they have the best prices. Maybe the Nazis get their kicks that way.
Rebyidd, there is no religious test for public office in the US. In fact, Joe Lieberman came very close to becoming VP in 2000.
Charlie, isolationism might be good for the Jews this time. The US uses its “aid” to Israel as a bludgeon. Moreover, he will not pressure Israel on settlements. In fact, he said in an interview with the London Daily Mail that Israel should “keep going” and “keep moving forward” with settlements. No surprise as his adviser on Israel heads the American Friends of the Bet-el Yeshiva.
Joseph, FYI many Orthodox parents send their kids to public school because of they are too poor to pay tuition and too rich for subsidies.
Zahavasdad, the Chafetz Chaim told Rav Elchonon in so many words that there would be a holocaust.