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Mdd, those are your opinions. In any case, even if he was an Acharon later Acharonim can pasken like him if they think that he is correct. I already brought that Acharonim sometimes disagree with Rishonim so you apparently disagree with those poskim as well as those poskim who hold that appointing a king is a mitzva kiumit. I disagree with you and apparently you have no answer as you have resorted to an ad homiem argument.
Zahavasdad, many peoples in their empire had local kings. The Herodians were called kings even though they were subject to the Romans.
Akuperma, all Israeli prisons have “Torani wings”. The Dannemora State Prison in Ny has a kosher kitchen run by a convicted murderer. He also blows the shofar for the Jewish prisoners on Rosh HaShana. As for minyanim, I heard of a prison that has two: Aguda and Young Israel.
Joseph,
1. Your assertions regarding 99% of the cases in the news, etc.
2. The SA is talking about compulsion. A bet din has the right and obligation to pasken according to what they consider just. In monetary cases this is called “pashara”. If they pasken that he should give his wife a divorce and he refuses he is in contempt of court and the bet din may take appropriate action.
Mdd,
1. You heard (or remember) wrong. Abarbanel lived two generations before the Shulchan Aruch. Thus he is a Rishon. Anyway, Rambam says that it is a mitzva to appoint a king not an obligation. Giving a get is also a mitzva.
2. The Gra, the Shaagat Aryeh, the Schach, the Peri Chadash and the Chazon Ish did not accept that. See “??? ???”? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????????” )on-line) for a discussion of this issue.
3. Yes. That is why He gave limitations. He also gave alternatives.
4. You still have not answered my kushiyot. Why did it take 355 years to appoint a king? How were the leaders in EY after the Churban called nesi’im and not kings?
5. See “The Source for Elections in the Torah” by Rav Mordechai Greenberg (also on-line).
The question is whether it is good or bad for the Jews. Is the UK a moderating force in the EU’s relationship towards Israel or not?
Joseph,
1. Please cite your sources for these assertions.
2. You are misusing the word “mandate”. The proper word is “compel”, which means beating him until he says”rotzeh ani”. No bet din today has the power to do that under any circumstances. However, a bet din does have the power to instruct him that he should give his wife a get. If he refuses it can issue sanctions against him for contempt of court (e.g. no honors in shul). This is not compulsion as he can decide to forego shul honors (for example) whereas no one can accept continual beating.
Actually, slavery in the Torah is demonstrably better than prison. In the former the thief or bankrupt gets to learn how to stand on his own two feet. In the latter he learns how to be a bigger crook. If he is emotionally unable to tolerate freedom he need not commit another crime to go back to servitude. While there was also the eved Kenani, who was not a full Jew, he had many rights, such as Shabbat and Yom Tov. If his master injured him or needed him for a mitzva (e.g. completing a minyan) he went free and became a full Jew.
Joseph, the implication of the word “recalcitrant” is that a bet din requires him to do so.
Mdd,
1. Abarbanel is a Rishon. There is also the statement in the Gemara (Berachot 55a) that a leader must be acceptable to the people. It might even be that they can recall a king (Yerushalmi Horiot 3,2 and Rosh HaShana 1,1 with Korban HaEida and Pnei Moshe there and Responsa Avnei Nezer Yoreh Deah 312,15, Rut Rabba 5,6 but see intro. to “Oneg Yom Tov” )
2. Who says that one cannot argue with Rishonim if he has solid proofs? See http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/arguing-with-rishonim-and-achronim.
3. You still have not answered my questions regarding the kings of Israel, bad kings, Hashmonaim and Herodians. For that matter, why was the leader after the Churban always called the Nasi?
4. How does the Netziv allow a postponement? What if no generation would feel that it needs a king? He does not mention any time limit. In fact, it took 355 years to annoint Shaul.
5. It is outrageous that you dismiss major poskim with a wave of the hand. You must go to their graves and beg forgiveness with bitter tears.
Ubitquin, according to the US National Library of Medicine “In the United States, 36,110 bombing incidents, 5,931 injuries, and 699 deaths were reported. There were 21,237 (58.8%) explosive bombings, 6,185 (17.1%) incendiary bombings, 1,107 (3.1%) premature bombings, and 7,581 (21.0%) attempted bombings. For explosive bombings with known motives, 72.9% of injuries and 73.8% of deaths were because of homicide. For incendiary bombings with known motives, 68.2% of injuries were because of extortion and revenge, and 53.5% of deaths were due to homicide. Private residences accounted for 29.0% of incidents, 31.5% of injuries, and 55.5% of deaths. Government installations accounted for 4.4% of incidents but were the site of 12.7% of injuries and 25.5% of deaths. In bombings with known materials, nitrate-based fertilizers accounted for 36.2% of injuries and 30.4% of deaths, and smokeless powder and black powder accounted for 33.2% of injuries and 27.1% of deaths.”
I don’t see how the ingredients in all of these devices can be effectively banned. However, I do agree that sales of actual weapons should be by license as with driving (not that that helps very much either).
Mdd,
1. Rambam says (Hilchot Melachim 1,7) that only David’s kosher descendants can be king. Does that mean that the kings of Israel were not kings according to Rambam (see Sanhedrin 20b Tosafot d”h melech)? What about Menashe ben Chizkiahu? Rambam also says (ibid, Hlalacha 8) that if a navi appoints someone from a different shevet to be king and he keeps the Torah he is considered the king. Does that mean that the Hashmonaim and the Herodian rulers were not kings? If not, how do you define their government?
2. Abarbanel, the Netziv, Rav Kook and Rav Chaim David HaLevi (“Shilton al pi HaTorah v’haDemokratia”, “Shana b’Shana”, 5758, p.205-213) apparently interpret it differently. I only suggested that according to them the mitzva to appoint a king means a central government and not necessarily a monarch. If you wnat to disagree you can cite opposing sources. However, let us not be neo-Karaites.
Mdd, you can interpret it. This is done all the time. This is part of Torah shebaal peh.
Avram, actually according to a recent study most murders are executions. The murderer decided that the victim did something that makes him deserving of death. According to the US DOJ Bureau of Justice Statistics “Almost half of the victims died in fights with the offender arising from property disputes, domestic arguments, insults or feuds. An estimated 11 percent were involved with the killer in illegal drug activities and 12 percent were collaborating in other criminal activities with their killer.” The death penalty might well deter all but the suicidal. At any rate, they will never kill again.
Ubiquitin, one can kill even more with explosives. Criminals can get either or make it without any problem.
Let the dead language (if it can be called a language and not a jargon) rest in pieces (the different dialects). Learn Chinese. That is the wave of the future.
Mdd, see http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14388&hilite=e7539dd1-d1d6-46fd-8b6d-66a2c821025c&st=%D7%A7%D7%91%D7%95%D7%A5&pgnum=329. Why should there not be l’chatchila and b’diavad in this mitzva? Really, there should be no need for any type of government. Hashem should be King. That is to say, people should keep mitzvot without compulsion. Forming a government is a tacit admission that the people are not capable of that (Shmuel Alef 18,7). If there is to be a government it depends on how far the people have descended. If the situation is not too bad a republican form of government is appropriate – and this was the case in the autonomous medieval kehillot. If it is worse a constitutional monarchy (the king is subject to the limitations of the Torah as expounded by the Sanhedrin and the nevi’im) is needed. However, this is only if there is a someone worthy of the tremendous powers which a king has (Rambam Hilchot Melachim ch. 3, 8-9). As Abarbanel points out, we see what happened immediately after the death of Shlomo. The bad kings brought Am Yisrael down to the three cardinal sins by example.
Mdd,
1. Not at all. Any leader must be acceptable to the public
(Berachot 55a). If it is an obligatory mitzva why did they wait 355 years? Why did Gideon refuse to be king? Why was Shmuel unhappy with their request? For that matter, Abarbanel prefers a republican form of government and effusively praises the systems in Florence and Venice in his time. According to Rav Kook (Mishpat Cohen 144?14) that any leader accepted by the people has considered a king for his functions it is not a problem. The mitzva is to appoint a national leader. If he is a king he has certain dinim that a judge or nasi does not have.
2. True. However the number of qualified people today is certainly very large.
Mdd, it is a conditional mitzva. Here is the language of the Netziv (He’emek Devar Devarim 17,14):
???, ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ????, ??? ‘????? ????? ???’; ???? ???? ????? ??”? ?????? ????? ???! ??? ??, ??? ???? ‘?????’?
?????, ????? ?????? ?????? ?????, ?? ????? ?? ?? ??? ????? ?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ????????, ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ?????, ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ??????, ???? ?? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?? ????? ???, ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???, ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???, ?? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???, ?? ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ????????? ??????? ???? ???? ????, ?? ?? ????? ??? ???????? ????? ???.
As for David and his descendants, statistically all of us are probably his descendants. Only cohanim and levi’im are definitely not through a continuous line of males. Moreover, Rambam says that a son only inherits his father’s position if he is like him in yirat Shemayim (Hilchot Melachim 1,7).
Charlie,
1. That is only if the people want such a system. However, if the people do not positions to be held for life and passed on by inheritance they can set up a system where there are no sarrarot, only public servants (Rav Shaul Yisraeli, Havat Binyamin 1,12 p. 92).
2. Abarbanel’s problem with monarchy is that he saw it as always degenerating into tyranny.
3. In the ideal system, which Rambam says will be in place in Mashiach’s time, all these taxes will be paid voluntarily. No need for audits, fines or imprisonment.
Avram, criminals will always find ways to get weapons. They can even make them themselves. Even teen gangs can make zip guns. Moreover, various and sundry implements can be used as weapons for both murder and suicide. This is how Abe Reles became known as “Kid Twist”.
Ideally it should be Anarch-Capitalism. Each person under his own vine and fig tree keeping mitzvot because Hashem said to keep them. Practically, it is whatever the people want (He’emek Devar Devarim 17,14).
NYC has one of the strictest laws in the world but that never stopped criminals. Israel has gun control but if one lives in an area or considered dangerous, is/was a reserve office in the IDF and has a clean record one can get a permit fairly easily yet the murder rate is very low, especially when factoring out terrorism, underworld hits and “family honor” killings.
America has a huge population so statistically there will be more people who go nuts. Also the mentality regarding violence is very important.
Joseph,
If they are OTD why don’t they do a regular IDF program? As for being ” dropouts” or “guys with problems” are you admitting that not everyone should learn full-time?
Just out of curiosity, what is your heter for being motzi shem ra on a whole group of Jews? If you do not have one you must come to EY and ask forgiveness from each NC guy.
DY, what if she does not want to cross?
“Daat Torah” is generally understood to mean that the rav also paskens on non-halachic matters. For example, what kind of car to buy and whether or not to accept the offer of financing deal to by an apartment (some years ago, in a major blow for the idea of DT, a contractor went bankrupt leaving Chareidi buyers who listened to rabbanim and accepted a discount in return for giving up the usual bank guarantees in the lurch).
Joseph, what is important is that Hashem recognized and continues to recognize it.
Nothing. The UN is irrelevant. As Ben-Gurion said, Oom (the Hebrew acronym for the UN) schmoom.
The following appears on the Arutz Sheva English site:
For months, the haredi officer charged with integrating religious soldiers into the army has endured an unending barrage of harassment and defamation from radical elements within the community opposed to service in the IDF.
On Wednesday, however, the efforts to force the officer to either abandon his position or leave the haredi community ratcheted up dramatically.
His wife and children discovered the frame of the front door had been damaged, and that the lock of the front door had been glued, rendering it inoperable.
They later discovered black paint splashed on the floor of the apartment building near the entrance of their home.
[paint]
Despite the attack on their home, the family remains determined not to cave in to the pressure.
[of vandals]
No surprise. They have to consider the hooligans in their camp. Even Rav Eliashiv was stoned (after he reached an agreement on moving graves).
AY,
1. There is no such obsession. In fact, this will clear outthe dead wood and turn them into live wood in another framework.
2. If you want to use the Technion example then have the Rabbanut give exams just as the Technion has entrance exams.
3. As for your fallacious example about appreciating talmidei chachamim, if they have not learned this by age 18 then the Chareidi yeshiva system is a complete failure.
4. FYI, there is forced conscription. Moreover, some people want to be forced so that they have an excuse. This, in fact, is what American olim do to avoid losing their US citizenship.
5. What other harangues do you propose?
DY, almost doesn’t count except in Horseshoes and hand grenades. The fact is that someone who is not cut out to be a talmid chacham will not apply himself. Hashem does not giev out talents and desires for no reason.
MW,
The Rambam clearly states in Mishna Torah that there is no need for a navi or Sanhedrin in the case of a milchemet mitzva ?? ?(http://www.hebrewbooks.org/rambam.aspx?sefer=14&hilchos=83&perek=5&halocha=2&hilite=).
2. ???”? ??? ?????? ?????????”? ??? ????? ??? ?
[????? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ??????? ????? ????? ????? “??? ???? ?? ????] ??? ?????? ????????”. ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ????, ??????? ??????, ??? ????: “???? ?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ???” ???’, ??? ????? ???? ????. ?????? ??? ?????, ????? ????? ?????? ???????: “??? ?? ???? ??? ?’ ????? ??, ?? ???? ??? ???”. ????? ???: “?????? ?’ ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???”. ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???, ???? “????? ?? ?? ?’ ??????”, ??? “?? ?????”, ????? ???? ?????, ?? ????? ??????.
??????? “????? ????? ?????”, ???? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ??????. ??? ???? ?????: “?? ????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????” ???’, “??? ???: ?? ????? ?????? ??? ???????? ????, ??? ?? ????. ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ????: ‘?????? ???? ?????? ???????’, ???? ??: ‘?? ????? ???” ???’. ?????: “??? ????: ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????, ???? ????? ?????? ??? ????: ??? ??? ??? ?????, ?????? ????: ??????? ??? ?????, ???? ????? ????? ???? ????; ???? ?? ??? ??”. ??? ????????? ?????? ??? ??????.
3. HeEmek Devar Devarim 17,14: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14021&st=&pgnum=157
4. Saying that it is a mitzva to go to war is the same as saying that it is a milchmmet mitzva. No amount of sophistry will change that.
5. The point is that there was no navi in Rabbi Akiva’s time. In fact, I heard that the 12,000 pairs of talmidim who died were two groups. One went into the army and one did not. neither respected the other’s position.
6. The poskim to whom you refer were talking about those who are really learning not merely listed. I am sure that if there would be military bet midrash where they would learn for the success of the IDF like other support units those poskim would have no problem. There are also the hesder and mechina models, which could be extended to the Charedi sector. This, in fact, would save many boys who are not built for full-time learning and wind up preying on their own communities for lack of an outlet. I personally was witness to the beginnings (I ran for my life) of a rumble between the “shabab Chareidi” and the tzeniut patrol when I lived in Bnei Beraq.
7. No one has a problem with a private person supporting a bachur or anyone else he wishes to support. However, if the tzibbor is going to support someone and also release him from obligations the tzibbor has the right to make sure that they are not being cheated. In fact, Chazon Ish, Rav Shachand Rav Wolbe all condemned those who are using yeshivot to getout of the IDF but are not learning. I heard that the CI even said that they should be reported to the authorities. Rav Tzvi Yehuda Kook, as I previously posted, gave each bachur a personal pesak. Some were told to enlist and some were told not to.
DY, obviously Rav Moshe was talking about someone who has a future as a talmid chacham (see Taanit 21a).
DY,
1. I was referring to Rambam’s statements regarding a milchemet mitzva.
2. The Kesef Mishna only says that a rav who teaches others may receive payment. In any case, today he can publish books and receive royalties, receive a salary from the yeshiva, etc. Of course, if someone is receiving aid anyway because he cannot find a job, has a disability, etc. should go and learn to his ability.
147, you should learn American slang before you use it. “Frame” means to cause an innocent person to be blamed for a crime.
Scared, he violated the terms of his probation for fraud.
Scared, this is a new one on me. Please give details.
MW,
In Mishna Tora he clarifies that “war” refers to a milchemet reshut and “conquering cities” means outside EY. You still have not defined a talmid chacham. It is certainly not some butterfly (the Israeli slang expression) who is officially listed as a talmid but goofs off. In practice, Rav Tzvi Yehuda (Kook) gave a personal pesak to each talmid in his yeshiva. Moreover, you have not dealt with the suggestion for establishing military battei midrash whose students will be officially part of the IDF like other support troops learn for the success of the combat troops. Asfor Rav Moshe’s teshuva, with all due respect he is a daat yachid. It is also very puzzling as Rabbi Akiva and his colleagues supported Bar Kochba. Moreover, it is against Rambam, Ramban (in his Sefer HaMitzvot), the Ran and the Netziv as I previously posted.
Charlie, so you’re saying that it comes down to who looks better in an orange jumpsuit? Trump, if he violated the law (a proof of a quid pro quo is needed), is small potatoes compared to Hillary. Her rap sheet includes unethical behavior as a Watergate committee staffer, participation in the Whitewater fraud, laughing about using a technicality to get a rapist acquitted (and violating attorney-client privilege in the process), accomplice to the murders of American diplomats, endangering national security through misuse of an unsecured server
Even better, why not privatize all of the pools and beaches? Why is this a municipal function? However, that will not end anti-“discrimination” suits, as Xtian bakers have discovered.
AY, that subject has not been broached up to now. Yes, they should be checked. In fact, IDF spies follow girls who claim to be religious and woe to the girl who rides on Shabbat or eats in a non-kosher restaurant. As for the students, athletes, artists and entertainers, the students only receive a deferment if they go into the academic reserves. After they receive their degrees they serve in their professions, mainly in technical positions. Athletes, so far as I know, are not exempted. In fact, in one famous case an athlete left the country in order to avoid the draft. Ditto artists. With entertainers you have it backwards. They are noticed and put into entertainment units boosting morale. After their service they go pro.
In any case, you are using the same fallacious argument that people who rip off government programs in the US use. Other ethnic groups do it so there is nothing wrong with Jews doing it. I once asked someone if Jews should also mug people. Of course, he did not have an answer.
Sam, the most an independent can do is throw the election into the House. All that has been written about Trump is true but Clinton is just as bad. She was fired from the Watergate committee staff for unethical behavior, participated in the Whitewater fraud, caused the deaths of American diplomats and laughed about getting a rapist off scot-free by taking advantage of a prosecutor’s error (which may have been a breach of attorney-client privilege). However, Trump is in favor of building settlements and his adviser on Israel is a frum Jew who heads the American Friends of the Bet-el Yeshiva. That makes him our bum (to paraphrase FDR’s comment about Somoza).
MW,
The requirement for a Sanhedrin and Navi only refers to milchemet reshut not a milchemet mitzva (Ramban, Hilchot Melachim 5:2; Ran, Derash 11; Netziv, He’emek Devar, Deavrim 17:14; Rav Kook, Mishpat Cohen 144)
Rav Herzog (Heichal Yitzchak OC 31 and 38), the Tzitz Eliezer (3:9:10, 3:10, 7:48:12) and Rav Ovadia (Yabia Omer 10 CM 6:23 on the Entebbe operation) say that Israel’s wars have been milchemot mitva.
DY & MW,
1. Yes we do pasken that Rambam.
2. Who is a talmid chacham? Some bachur who spends half his time at the coffee corner, reading newspapers and demonstrating? If the tzibbor is going to give them a deferment the Chief Rabbinate should be the body to see if they are really learning. Moreover, if they are serious about being part of the military effort they should dedicate their learning to it seriously.
Joseph, the Rema only brings that as a “yesh omrim”. Stam v'”yesh omrim”, halacha k’stam – and what about Sepharadim? In any case, if the tzibbor is going to pay them it should be able able to make sure that it is not being cheated through audits (without warning so that there is no time to pad the bet midrash) and exams.
I asked a rav and he told me that two people should not say a beracha at once even if they are two men. I presume that that is because of “trei kallei la shaamei” (two voices are not heard) so they did not motzi the listeners. However, it probably does not possel the kiddushin. In general, berachot are not me’akev.
5miyodeya, I wrote that if it is an “English-speaking” position being Hebrew-impaired will not make a big difference. However, if I were hiring for a position where people would have to participate in meetings and deal with Hebrew documents I would consider it a major black mark. In any case, you really should make an effort to learn and use Hebrew. Just as one who plans on living in America has an obligation to learn and use English so too one who plans to live in Israel should learn and use Hebrew.
Nechomah, only the French and Ethiopians do that. Israelis hug each other.
Joseph, that in itself is an anti-Semitic comment.
He is referring to getting a job vs. learning full-time. BTW, here is what he says about someone who wants to take welfare l’chatchila in order to learn full-time:
Actually, many non-frum Israelis know about it. In fact, the secretary in a former workplace of mine once told me that she does not extend her hand to observant men. Your rusty Hebrew is a much bigger problem unless you are interviewing for an “English-speaking job” (e.g. dealing with international business). In America someone who does not speak good English will not get a decent job except in a company owned by people who speak his first language so too in Israel.
Rambam, Hilchot Melachim 5:1 and 7:4. Of course, not everyone is a combat soldier. IMHO, those who are superior learner (according to objective exams administered by the IDF rabbinate) can form a “cheil haTalmud”, learn for the success of the IDF and give shiurim (something like the mashuach milchama). See “On Yeshiva Men Serving In The Army” by Rabbi Alfred S. Cohen, available on-line.
Blubuh, that is the chance you take when you accept a request for an estimate without asking for an examination fee (which I believe is the custom). What about a case that occurred in an office in which I worked: A repairman was called in to fix the microfilm machine. He came and saw that the only problem was that the lens was not in place. He charged $25 (almost forty years ago) for making an office call.
Joseph & Yehudayona, the opposite is also true. Many children who are halachically Jewish think that they are not because they are being raised in their fathers’ religions.