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Most people are not “with it” because they are saying words that Dovid Hamelech was on that level but not us in today’s generation. Therefore they are bored , come late, leave early and talk whenever it gets too much for them.
Most people talk in shul because they are forced to say words that they are not holding by. Its above their level. This applies to the majority of davening.
Ex: In Shema; and you will see them, the tzitzis and remember all the mitzvohs and do them OR in Ashrai; Bechol yoim avorececho …
Why is no one mentioning this blatant issue?
Since you have not responded to my last blog, it appears that you agree to my answer.
I never said that Bain Odom Lamokoim (BOLM) is mean. I said it is foreign, strange.
I believe that every frum person feels at home with BOLM only because he has been brought up that way. No one on their own would invent Shabbos, Niddah etc
Ben Odom La`chavaro (BAL): the whole world believes that a person must be decent .No one believes that that is an extra or foreign.
This is a fundemental difference.
A better word than extra would be foreign
Being decent and acting as a mensh everyone even non jews know about it and agree to the concept
Of course for a person who has been brought up frum, Bain odom lamokoim is not an extra but for others it is
Secondly, to tell the world your Torah opinion via “obscene extremes” is a mitzvah habo`oh mai avairoh!
There is a fundamental difference.
For a person who has been brought up not to keep Shabbos, he needs to be educated in order to be able to change. It is not natural for such a person to keep such a new, foreign (in his eyes) concept.
Reb Dovid was not making up theories.He stated FACTS from talking to the Attorneys involved in all those cases.
Please note that he never said ALL the cases. He said quite a number of them.
I spoke to Rabbi Weinberger personally and he told me the following facts.
Not long ago in a certain town, in the space of approximately 18 weeks, there were 32 divorcees. Rabbonim giving the wrong advice caused quite a number of them. He himself was dealing with such a case. He is advocating getting Rabbonim to agree not to get involved in sholom bayis issues with out the joint involvement of a therapist.
Rabbi Weinberger states that a woman must be made safe.
Quote “Safe does not just mean physically protected; she must be protected emotionally and psychologically as well.
The right rav will never ask an abused woman,”What did you do to deserve it?” when she describes the way she is being abused.There is never a legitimate excuse for abuse.”
The little I know
Correct. Although the example he gave was about domestic violence,,he included in his article cases of emotional abuse.
Quote:”There is a repeated pattern of behaviour and a lifestyle of a husband encroaching on his wife’s rights,whether it’s controlling the finances, using demeaning language, and/or imprisoning and suffocating her even if he never lifts a hand to strike her”.
Many Rabbanim are very adept at dealing with shalom bayis issues, such as couples who disagree constantly on how to best parent their children, or have frequent arguments on how to spend money. However, abuse which is a new dynamic emerging in the frum community needs specialized training.
He relates the following incident.
From my personal experience,I believe that it`s emotionally dangerous to seek advice from a Rov that has not been trained to understand emotional issues.
I have on 2 separate occasions from 2 different Rabbonim received a directive that I felt was emotionally impossible to put into practice.On one occasion I contacted a psychotherapist and she agreed with me. B”H It was only because I felt good in myself did I manage to stand up to them and refuse to follow their directive.
I believe that what Chazal say in Kidushin 6a “Kol mi sheainoi yodaiu betiv …. applies in all areas that one has no expertise.
Accordingly, anyone who is not an expert in emotional issues should not get involved in dealing with such matters!
TO yungerman1 I want to clarify my thesis as I think it may not have been explained clearly.
There is no one who gets all their needs met as a child, since parents are not perfect.
Accordingly,my starting point is “everyone” as opposed to “someone”.
And its not “MAY be obsessed” but definitely will be,b/c a “need” is something that is always longing to be satisfied.
Focusing on Hashem is just one example of being unaware of ones needs.Correct,there could be other causes.
I would appreciate if you could tell me what you now think my thesis is, so that I will know if I have explained it clearly. Thanks.
It is Rashi Kesubos 8a(close) S.V. Rei’im Ha’ahuvim
not falling in love does not mean not loving the other as explained to yitayningwut
TO yitayningwut Correct one needs to have feelings towards the other.One needs to feel that one is “in love” with being together with the other.
But “falling in love” is to imagine that this feeling is considered “loving the other” as wanting to give to the other their needs whether its convenient or not.This is a grave mistake as I point out in my other thread.
TO Csar Most people say that they love the other`s middos ehrlichkeit etc… and at the end of the day they have still fallen in love without realising it.
What can one do about that?
TO yungerman1 P.S.RE The 3rd person.
The spouse on their own may offer to help out once he/she is made aware of what the other needs.
TO computer777: Correct no one gets all their needs met from their parents.
The problem starts when one is not consciously aware of exactly what needs were not met and then mistakenly, since one remains “needy”,(feeling something is lacking.I don`t mean a nebech) one imagines that ones spouse is the one that is meant to satisfy it(falling in love).
A spouse can always help out as a favour, but will only be willing to do so if the spouse is made to feel “not responsible” for what I am lacking.
So says Harville Hendrix in his book “Getting the love you want”
which was recommended to me by a frum psychotherapist who is also a “Rabbi”.I believe there are many Torahdicker Haskofos in it.
Re: to extreme givers : There are 3 types of people in connection with needs not being satisfied in childhood.
1 Someone who will unconsciously seek out to satisfy their need, even at the expense of others(b/c he is unaware that he is doing that)
2 Someone who will consciously attempt to deny they have needs and become an extreme giver in order to suppress their needs.
3 Someone who will learn to become consciously aware(know and feel)that certain needs were not met as a child.
He will not blame his parents for this b/c he realises that they,in turn,did not get their needs met by their parents.
He will then take full responsibility for that and attempt to satisfy them by himself, if thats possible,or request, as a favour,from his spouse to help him get his needs met.
I hope I have answered your queries.
TO yungerman1 P.S. Its not totally different.There are similarities but its a topic on its own.
TO yungerman1: As you say, the love for a child is not man made so the interaction between parent and child is different.
TO always runs with scissors fast: “I think that once you adore and admire all those wonderful qualities in the other person, and therefore feel fulfilled being close to them, hence calling that love, it is entirely spontaneous and natural that you’d want to give and serve back to the other person.”
What you call love is correct. It is “love of self”
It`s not WRONG in itself as I explained to zahavasdad.
You are right in saying that you want to give and serve the other.
At this point of time, since what one is really experiencing(subconsciously)is just love of self,the motivation to give to the other stems from the pleasure of “receiving.”
Once I do not feel my needs “of receiving” are being met( which is referred to as “falling out of love”) then my motivation to give and serve ceases.
TO yungerman1 “I disagree with your fundamental basis that people do not have self awareness of their own needs.”
Self awareness does not mean just “knowing” ones needs.Its also “feeling”it.
For example. I want/need to go for a walk but I do`nt like going on my own so I want to ask a friend to join me.
Before I approach him I am aware that I am liable to put pressure on him to join me b/c I want/need to go but I know it`s wrong to do so. Accordingly, I say to myself that if he says that he is tired ,I wont respond that the fresh air will wake you up.
I realise that he may not be in the mood for a walk now(just like I myself am not always in the mood for it)
or something else is going on in his life that he does not want to share with me and therefore this is “his way” of getting out of going(just like I myself respond in a similar fashion to others when I am in a similar situation).
Accordingly,I am prepared to hear a “no” and then decide if I should ask someone else or go it on my own.
When will a person act in such a way?
When he`s aware that he needs not to pressured to do things for others on other occasions.
When hes aware that he needs to be given “space” when requests are made by others.
This kind of behaviour is referred to as “Giving”.(Changing oneself in order to give)
This is the meaning of “Love your neighbour like you love Yourself”
This kind of self awareness one does not posses naturally.
TO zahavasdad: I believe its better to realise and allow yourself to experience, that your initial feelings are about receiving which is referred to as LOVE OF SELF and then work the rest of your life on creating “love of other”. (which I believe is the correct way to approach a Torahdicker marriage) and then HAVING AND NOT LOOSING IT because one is steadily creating it,
than living temporarily with an illusion of having real love and then feeling that you lost something that in reality you never had in the first place.(which is the non Jewish way of getting married by “falling in love”)
LOVE OF SELF is not wrong in itself.On the contrary, one needs to get ones needs met before one is able to give to the other their needs.
TO BaalHabooze A non-violent statement I am wondering why you ask me a new question before you have responded to the comments I made to you in”Marriage in Crises”
TO OneOfMany I`ll refrase your statement in a “nonviolent way”
I prefer a little less psychoanalysis.
P.S. For a more comprehensive explanation of “GIVING AND RECEIVING”
To yungerman1 I mean to say that the couple perceive it as “giving” but in reality it could be otherwise
TO yungerman1 I am referring to an emotional bond of ” wanting to give”. Your example of a toy is one of “receiving”
Secondly, the feeling they have after a weeks vacationing are real but could very well be about “receiving”
TO yungerman1 What is your opinion?
To computer777 “always given whatever they wanted” is not synonymous to ” always given whatever they needed”
Do you differentiate between desires and needs?
There exists a need not to get all that one desires!
HaKatan and yungerman1 For clarity sake, My friend was referring to an emotional detachment as he was disagreeing with the reason why someone was getting divorced.
I believe that if an emotional bond exists then its a feeling that is with you 24/7,in ones subconscious and does not need a reminder.If time gets in its way that proves that it never existed in the first place!!!!
what does exist is explained in “Love in crisis” http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/love-in-crisis
“According to your logic, this emotional detachment should start immediately. If “GIVING is the foundation of a marriage” -which I happen not to agree with- and “its impossible to give my spouse their needs since I am not in touch with the concept of NEEDS!!!!!!!!” then actually, the emotional bond should never have been created to begin with!”
You are a 100% correct.The emotional bond of “Loving other” has never been created. check out “Love in crisis” http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/love-in-crisis
MorahRach you are right the current situation is scary. I am also feeling it.My intention is to see if there are other like minded people who would be interested in exploring this issue.
I read many articles in papers and magazines and hear Droshos about what one needs to do in order to have a good marriage but, as you say,”it gets forgotten or thrown out of the window”
I believe no one consciously throws it out.They themselves are unaware that they are doing that.This made me explore the concept of “unawareness”.
As PLONIALMONI4 says part of the solution is effective communication.
I came across a book entitled “Non violent communication A Language of Life”. He explains how we are unaware that naturally we communicate unhealthily. One needs firstly to become aware that one is unaware that naturally one communicates ineffectively, in order to solve this problem.I would recommend this book to anyone interested in this topic.
Think first. Sorry.Change the word “most” to “many”
P.S. QUOTE: “on the other hand they NEED to remain living together for various reasons which one could well understand.”
This is an example of a need that people are unaware of,and is being satisfied unconsciously. This is since they would never admit that their philosophy stems from it.
yossi z. Thanks for your support
I believe that most people will be unable to admit to what I am saying since they will then need to reassess their marriage which understandably is extremely difficult.
You being a life coach have had personal first hand experience with people in such situations.
A friend told me what he has learnt about marriage from his experience with others and believes,is the correct way how to live
He says when a couple start their married life ,of course they are together.As life expands it is accepted that each spouse goes in their separate ways.
I was shocked to hear this.
In my view, this is exactly what I am talking about.
He is telling me that
EMOTIONAL DIVORCE IS PART OF MARRIAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I understand that this view is as a result of being in a very difficult situation. On one hand, experiencing that they are unable to be emotionally involved with each other and on the other hand they NEED to remain living together for various reasons which one could well understand.
Unfortunately ,THIS SITUATION,has created a false philosophy that emotional bonding is not an essential element of marriage.This is not an intellectual motivated idea.
Correct.People are focused on their needs and some are too focused.
BUT they are consciously unaware of this.Accordingly they become “needy people” steadily involved with satisfying their needs even at someone elses expense. This is what a selfish person is all about.
The person will not admit this is what is happening since their needs are being satisfied in an unconscious manner.
An unselfish person is someone who is consciously aware of their needs and therefore realises that others also exist and have needs and I have no right what so ever to satisfy my needs at someones else expense.
Simultaneously, they will want to help their spouse get their needs met.April 17, 2012 10:22 am at 10:22 am in reply to: What can Yeshivos and girls' schools do to prevent students' OTD feelings? #972697
I speak for boys in Yeshivah.
I believe that one of the problems could be that they spend the majority of the day involved in learning material that has no direct relevance to their personal internal emotional world.
It maybe intellectually simulating and enjoyable for some but since it is abstract,it has nothing to do with a living connection with Hashem.
They want an emotional connection but Gemara learning does not achieve that.
Secondly many,even girls, may find it hard to feel the words of Davening, especially if one is obligated to repeat the exact same words 3 times a day,the whole year round.People may feel that this is Dovid Hamelech speaking but I am not on his level!
Does anyone share this problem with me?
Many do not allow themselves to admit that this is their problem
because they are afraid of not finding a solution!
I BELIEVE THIS LAST POINT IS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM!!!!!!
smartcookie My opening line is really the conclusion. The post explains how I got there.