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  • in reply to: Is there a tactful way to say Shadchan prefers money? #1003360

    AZ
    Participant

    I apologize, i was not referring to you specifically. How could I? i of course have no idea what your personal situation is and it’s certainly not for me to judge anyone.

    BUT as a community we somehow find funds to make weddings even simple ones, and yet the shadchanim are handed token payments.

    (yes- i consider even the current going rate of 1000-1500 to be a token payment, when taking into account the work that goes into the process of being a shadchan as well as how much money is spent in other clearly less important areas of wedding expenses.)

    As for shadchanim, there are shadchanim for all types, BUT the shadchanim are simply overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of singles of all types that need their attention.

    so, they are simply incapable of responding/catering to every singles one who reaches out to them.

    Hence my suggestion, that the community would do well to encourage more people to consider and stay active as shadchanim.

    And thus people like you describe would have more places to turn.

    and one of the best ways of doing so, is if being a shadchan somehow was fiscally feasibile, which currently it just isn’t.

    As for your question, what you could do specifically for your child, i will suggest something that i have found to be very effective. it’s something that i’ve done and encourage others to do and it works.

    Reach out to shadchanim who work with the kinds of boys that are appropriate for your child, and make them a very fair offer should they get your child to a date #2/ date #4. It is a very cost effective method of generating quality shidduch attention for your child.

    By doing so you are letting them know that you genuinely appreciate their efforts and that their efforts will be we rewarded. Shadchanim can’t gurantee to get your child engaged, but if they choose to work your child, they can get them dates and that is a very effective way to get your child to the chuppah.

    For the record, as I’ve stated numerous times in the past, i am not a shadchan.

    in reply to: Is there a tactful way to say Shadchan prefers money? #1003356

    AZ
    Participant

    syag:

    curious, do you plan on having your friends cook the food for the wedding and holding in the back yard?

    I’m just suggesting, it’s all a matter of priorites.

    if it was me, i’d much faster skimp on the caterer band flowers hall etc,

    but do whatever i could to give my child the best chance to find a shidduch.

    but that’s just me….

    (I’m sure APY would simply have their child sit at home and not go on dates, because after all bas ploni l’ploni and Hashem is mizaveg zivugim. I have no doubt that APY does nothing for parnassah either, because we know that hashem arranges for our parnassah as well).

    But for the rest of us mere mortals who understand our responsibilities to do our best within reason….

    Sure i’d try word of mouth, but i’d also reach out to as many shadchanim as i could and i’d make them a very fair offer….

    Syag- from some of what you write, it sounds like shadchanim owe it to the community to act in a certain way cater to certain kinds of girls, whom they should advocate for etc…

    and i’m sorry to say, a shadchan really owes nothing to anyone (of course they must be honest) but i’m referring to in terms of whom they should try to set up etc…

    we can’t have it both ways, treat them like dirt, take advantage of them , and then expect them to be at our beck and call, just because we want them to be at our beck and call.

    That’s really all i’m trying to convey thru this thread.

    in reply to: Is there a tactful way to say Shadchan prefers money? #1003347

    AZ
    Participant

    oomis,

    not quite sure what your comment has to do with this discussion. For whatever the reason is, we have sufficient rebbeim/moras to cater to our communities needs. Yet, we don’t have sufficient shadchanim.

    I’m simply suggesting a obvious reason as to why we don’t have sufficient edcuators, and a reasonable course of action how to rectify it.

    in reply to: Is there a tactful way to say Shadchan prefers money? #1003346

    AZ
    Participant

    Syag:

    “Also, I was not aware that there is a shortage of shadchanim by any means, so maybe there are cultural differences at play.”

    Then i guess we are talking apples and oranges.

    All i’m trying to do is help the singles, and i’m arguing that the current system of compensation for shadchanim is hurting the singles.

    If in your circles that doesn’t seem to be a problem, then we are surely not talking to each other.

    I for one don’t care much for shadchanim’s quality of life anymore than i care about anyone else’s.

    I was simply pointing out that if we as a community complain that there aren’t enough shadchanim and the singles in the commuity aren’t properly serviced, then perhaps we should do some soul searching.

    And maybe as a result more people would become shadhcanim and thus the singles would be better off.

    as for your argument re: rebbeim and moras, as in any field, there are highly qualified and less qualfied peole. and Shadhcanus is not different.

    BUT

    shadchanus is the one field that (in the circles i travel) there seems to be a serious dearth of people for the singles to turn to to assist them in getting married.

    I have yet to hear of a yeshiva/day school etc that had a teaching opening and simply couldn’t find people to fill it.

    I haven’t heard of schools waiting months and months to fill a vacancy.

    so apparently, for whatever the reason might be, it does seem like far more people relative to the community need in our community are willing and able to be educators than they are to be shadchanim.

    (i wholeheartedly agree, that if educators would receive salaries like lawyers then we would likely find ourselves with a higher caliber educator, but this is a discussion for a different time).

    in reply to: Is there a tactful way to say Shadchan prefers money? #1003342

    AZ
    Participant

    Syag:

    I too would surely like to see Rebbeim and Moras get paid far better than they currently are,

    YET

    I think we can all agree, that their is no “crisis” situation in our communities, that schools can not find enough rebbeim and morahs.

    Yet we all seem to agree that there clearly are not enough people involved in redding shidducim.

    So i think it is self evident that the financial compensation quality of life etc package that goes along with being a rebbe morah is far superior to that of a shadchan,

    and thus their are plenty of people who are happy to be rebbeim and morahs, – despite the many challenges- and not nearly enough shadchanim.

    AND the burnout rate of those who do try to be shadchanim is 10x’s the burnout rate of rebbeim and morash.

    hence, you comparison is faulty.

    as for being a stay at home mom, yeah these shadchanim do that as well.

    bthw-for the record, find me a shadhcan who consistently makes 6/7 shidduchim per year, and you will find a person who simply is unable to have any kind of employment, as making 6/7 shidduchim per year is full time work.

    I am simply stating the obvious, if 6/7 shidduchim a year = maybe 17k… well then we shouldn’t wonder why we have so few people in the country who are ready to to it…

    oomis:

    your comparison to support is off.

    surely, each parent of the single should/could do their research and ask around PRIOR to their child’s dating what shadchanim or perhaps a specific shadchan expects in terms of shadhcnaus.

    that’s the equivalent of a shadchan discussing money with each side at the beginning.

    However, expecting a shadchan to discuss shadchanus gelt with each side prior to the first date, is the equivalent of the potential mechutanim/singles themselves discussing money, prior to the first date.

    I have yet to see a situation where on the first date the boy walks into the house, and before taking out the girl, he says to the girls father,

    “um, before we get started, lets just be clear what the financial expectations arrangements will be in the event that your daughter and i end up getting married.”

    The shadchnaim i know, are very comfortable discussing in conversation with people they know what they would like to receive for shadhchanus for shidduchim they make, they just aren’t comfortable saying that to the singles families prior to redding them a shidduch.

    in reply to: Is there a tactful way to say Shadchan prefers money? #1003334

    AZ
    Participant

    syag:

    so long as the amount given is sanctioned by halacha, i have no problem.

    I didn’t say 500 isn’t enough for a shadchan to “feel” worthwhile, I wrote it simply isn’t enough to enable shadchanim to stay in the field.

    It’s the reality of life as is evidenced by the drop out rate amongst shadchanim and the clear dearth of available shadchanim relative to the communal need.

    And as you clearly agree, if $500 is NOT sanctioned by halacha, then it is not correct to give that to a shadchan, anymore than it is to give it to the caterer whose bill is a few thousand dollars.

    in reply to: Is there a tactful way to say Shadchan prefers money? #1003332

    AZ
    Participant

    APY- are you suggesting that the reason why some people don’t properly compensate shadchanim after they/their children get engaged/married is due to their sense that the shadchan didn’t perform their duties properly?

    or are you simply saying, that a proper contract would solve the problem.

    On that point your are correct, it certainly would, but it isn’t done for the various reasons outlined above. And the lack of a proper contract, in no way shape or form alleviates a parties halachic obligation to compensate according to the going rate.

    Now here’s a another little tidbit, the vast majority of people who are “shadchanim” and this might even go for every single one of them, began in the profession without any intention of doing it “full time”. They had a idea….. they tried to help someone they knew… and presto they made a shidduch.

    To a large extent the difference between those who stay the course, and those who quit early on, is how quickly they saw their first engagement. Inevitably shadchanim (surely ones starting out) go months and months without any “successes” (so long as we erroneously define a shadchans success as engagements made).

    If someone decides to try their hand at shadchanus, and goes months without making a enagement, well, they will very likely quit…

    People -being human beings- often quit when they don’t see “success” from their efforts.

    If they are lucky enough to make a shidduch or two early on, then they are more likely to stay with it when they inevitably hit the dry spell of months and months without making a shidduch.

    Continuing onwards, it takes quite a few years until a shadchan reaches the level where they are consistently making 6/7 shidduchim a year. That is typical of people who are very busy shadchanim. (there is a small tiny group of people in the country who consistently make significantly more shidduchim than that per year)

    At that point, say each side gives nicely based on today’s going rate and the shadchan recieves on average 2500 per completed shidduch, x seven shidduchim a year.

    That is whopping $17,500 (and often the average per shidduch is NOT 2500 total)

    And the time effort and energy that is required to make 7 shidduchim a year, is was beyond (see interjections post earlier on this page) what that same person if they chooose could expend in many other fields using similar skills that a shadchasn uses (think sales), and they would bring home many times that amount of money if they were in a different field.

    Is there any wonder, why so many potential shadchanim leave and go into other fields where they are

    a. more appreciated

    b. better compensated

    c. have better quality of life

    and surely they can find other avenues to do chesed.

    and who loses out when shadhcanim leave the “business”

    the singles who don’t have enough people to properly service their shidduch needs…

    sooooo

    If we as a community would like their to be more people redding shidduchim, then it might behove us a community to figure out ways to make sure shadchanim are better appreciated and better compensated.

    In a previous post I outlined two such suggestions.

    (the reason this is relevant to this thread, is that the issue of how shadchanim are currently compensated stems from a underlying under appreciation/under realization of what is involved in redding shidducim on a consistent basis.

    I have no doubt, that if people knew of the effort involved, then people would tell the caterer/florist/hall/clothing store, etc. I apologize that i can’t afford anything more than a candy dish as payment for the beautiful wedding you made, but i absolutely must pay the shadchan………

    By the way, do you know which people tend to give the nicest shadchanus?

    Shadchanim themselves. To people who make their kids shidduchim.

    Because they DO appreciate what it takes…

    in reply to: Is there a tactful way to say Shadchan prefers money? #1003329

    AZ
    Participant

    Thank you oyyoyyoy,

    You articulated clearly one of the points i was trying to make.

    in reply to: Is there a tactful way to say Shadchan prefers money? #1003326

    AZ
    Participant

    oomis,

    you are most certainly correct. HOWEVER, they (shadchanim) don’t feel comfortable doing so at the begining, and their lack of comfort level is to a large extent due to how they will be perceived if they were to do it.

    in light of that, the question became, what can be done after the fact to tactfuly request shadchanus.

    Perhaps this thread will assist in doing away with some faulty notions, and the day may yet come, when shadchanim are comfortable expressing up front what their shadchanus fee is, or some variation of that.

    (btw the comparison to mechantanim would be if each time a boy and girl date, prior to date #1 the two sides would sit down and discuss financial arrangement should the couple get engaged. You can well understand that such would be uncomfortable in light of the reality the the overwhelming majority of first dates (it’s probably something like 1 out of 20 for the younger singles) do NOT result in engagement. As such shadchanim would feel silly talking about payment each time before a first date, since it is very unlikely to result in engagement. If the system was that shadchanim were paid date 2/ date 4, then i think it is more likely for such discussion to take place prior to date one.)

    in reply to: Is there a tactful way to say Shadchan prefers money? #1003311

    AZ
    Participant

    thinking:

    i for one would think the commumnity should rethink the wedding costs and make shadchnus payment a priority (to ensure enough shadchanim enter and stay in the field)

    so if your question is do i personally have 5k laying around to spend easily- NO. Not by a long shot.

    do i think that many if not all of us could rebudget our wedding costs and household expenses to spend the money where it is most needed.

    Yes-i think a LOT could be done in the issue.

    The sense in this thread from many posters is that paying shadchanim is kind of like a afterthought. It’s what we spend leftover money on.

    I’m just wondering why that’s a acceptable attitude.

    We don’t feel that way about any other service providers, why should it be acceptable to feel that way about shadchanim. And then we wonder why we don’t have enough shadchanim in the field.

    (side note: The reason I personally prefer/recommend the date 2/ date 4 compensation system, is not because of the financial burden that 4/5 k shadchanus per side would create (though i’m sure some may disagree). That could/would be solved simply by shifting our spending priorities. If/when shadchanus was considered a primary wedding expense as it well should be, then people would cut down elsewhere.)

    To put things in perspective. Al pi halacha one requires 2 kosher witensses at the kiddushin and a total of 10 people at the chuppa. Basically every other wedding expense is “extra”. Paying the shadchan is not extra. It is obligatory. Not that 4k/5k is currently obligatory, it’s not. I’m simply showing how our wedding expenditure priorities are skewed.

    I’m not advocating a complete overhaul in weddings, but we can all be sure that if in budgeting for lchayim’s/vorts/wedding’s/apartment set up/young couple assistance etc etc. , we FIRST set aside 4k/ 5k for the shadchan AND then planned the venue, invite list, menu, clothing shopping, band, flowers etc…

    who knows, we might start complaining that all the other service providers have unreasonable expectations/demands about financial compensation etc etc…..

    And the shadchanim would be able to make a parnassha that would encourage and keep enough talented and capable shadchanim to provide for the communities needs.

    in reply to: Is there a tactful way to say Shadchan prefers money? #1003304

    AZ
    Participant

    to thinking out loud:

    I just wonder why people don’t ask other service providers

    “if its all about the cash – how do you know that the service provider is doing everything to make sure that this service and resulting effects of service provided goes smoothly.- that e/t is ‘according to the books'”

    “also what about being paid in the next world? does that not mean anything anymore?”

    Why is it that our community has this attitude with regards to shadchanim but not plumbers/electricians/doctors/lawyers/therapists/tutors etc etc…

    As you pointed yourself, the extensive amount of time that gets spent on just one shidduch. Imagine if you were busy with redding tens of shidduchim.

    Is it any wonder why there are so few shadchanim to turn to?

    If it any wonder that we hear the common refrain from the singles that they can’t get through to shadhchanim and the shadchanim saying they are simply bombarded and can’t possibly cater to all comers. (obviously a sign of to few providers to serve the communal need)

    why is it that we have plenty of doctors/lawyers/electricians/plumbers/therapists etc etc

    but with regards to shadchanim there are simply not enough to serve the communities needs.

    I think we can all rest assured, that IF shadchanus was a reasonably profitable venture, then we would see plenty of people use it as a respectable means of supporting their families.

    The reality is, that it isn’t, and that is a prime reason why many young talented shadchanim leave the “field” simply because their familial responsibilities requires that they use their time and talents to provide for their families- something that shadchanus didn’t seem likely to be able to do for them.

    so who lost out?

    them- no. They went into other fields and are supporting their families, and they no doubt with find other venues for doing various chassodim.

    the community loses out when talented/capable shadchanim leave the field.

    Perhaps WHEN we as a community sees to it that that be the case, that shadchanim are compensated as any other service provider, in a manner that can enable them to provide for their families, THEN we will also have plenty of shadchanim. Just like we have plenty of all other service providers.

    (side note: i personally do NOT think the effective method of compensating shadchanim is 1000-1500 for completed shidduchim. YES that is the norm in many circles, but i believe that isn’t sufficient to keep shadchanim in business. And i think the proof is in the pudding, because even in the circles where 1000-1500 shadchanus is very common, their are simply not nearly enough people who are able to dedicate themselves to being shadchanim to properly serve the communal need, and instead they find other ways to provide for their families.

    I think to make it work on the communal level, one of two things would need to be commonplace.

    either standard shadchanus from each side should be in 4000-5000 range. That would enable shadchanim who put in the time and effort and make 7/8 shidduchim a year (which is about normal for the typical very busy shadchan who spends basically their day/night weekday/weekend redding shidduchim) and in cases of difficult shidduchim (one good measure of difficulty is the infrequency the now engaged singles had been getting set up prior to the current shidduch), the shadchanus should be commensurately higher.

    Just like it is in any other service provider situation- that the compensation is commesurate with the degree of difficulty involved in the service provided.

    I would think that the potential parnassah of 56k-80k would be about right to encourage more talented people to join/stay in the field. These dollar amounts are surely still way below what other service providers who put in the equivalent time and effort to their practice that shadchanim do

    Alternatively (if 4k-5k per side per completed shidduch is to big a burden and it may well be-although it’s but a fraction of wedding costs and the shadchan is the most important piece of the simcha), a effective system would be be to compensate shadchanim for dates set up such as a date 2/date 4 system. In such a system the shadchan is compensated for what they can accomplish, i.e. setting up a date/ be it a decent date (date 2) or a quality date (date 4) as opposed to only compensating the shadchanim if a engagement occurs-something that is really out of the hands of the shadchan.

    Here to, the level of compensation for a date 2/ date 4 should be commensurate with the degree of difficulty in assisting the specific single to that point.

    I have no doubt, that no change will occur overnight as a result of this post- but discussion of the issue is certainly helpful.

    in reply to: Is there a tactful way to say Shadchan prefers money? #1003272

    AZ
    Participant

    oomis: the one error in you post is “IMO” as what you write is against codified halacha, your opinion doesn’t really matter on the issue.

    Perhaps what you don’t know is that even after the shidduch is completed the overwhelming vast majority of shadchanim don’t state a fee.

    The discussion is simply what are the two sides obligated to give under the circumstances. If a shadchan completes a shidduch and if (as is the common case) that no set amount of shadchanus was agreed upon, then how much must each side pay.

    just like if one calls a plumber or a electrician and no fee is agreed upon prior to the work, the plumber or electrician is certainly entitled to get paid after the job is completed. and his pay will be determined by the going rate. (if the service provider provides a rate that is within the range of the going rate and they can substantiate that such a fee is that specific service providers standard fee, the halacha might be that he is supposed to get that as opposed to the homeowner stating i will only pay the low end of the range. of this i am not certain, and one should ask a qualified poseik).

    And if the shadchan does state a fee -after the fact- that is beyond the range of the standard practice in the given community, or even if the shadchan requests a specific end of the range, the shadchan’s stated fee is irrelevant, UNLESS it was well known what that shadchan’s fee was.

    In such a case the two parties who used that shadchan are al pi halacha considered to have agreed to the fee of that shadchan being that it is well known, even if the shadchan didn’t tell them specifically and (i think the following is correct althought i’m not positive) even if the actual parties claim and or actually were unaware of that shadchan’s fee.

    however this kind of case is not common. As the reality is that shadchanim don’t state fees ahead of time, and the overwhelming majority of them don’t state fees after the fact either. They rely on the parties to (hopefully) do what is right and proper and the shadchanim probably hope that the parties will be even a bit generous.

    I for one would wish (as i think yo would) for it to become standardized that shadchanim state up front what the “fees” are if a couple gets engaged. However the overwhelming vast majority do not do so, and their reason for not doing so comes from “aidelkeit” not from a cruel plan to hold up the sides.

    In fact, if the (horrible/mean/money hungry) shadchan wanted to pressure the sides to “milk” the most shadchanus they could, the worst time to do so is after the shidduch is completed. At that point in time the shadchan has no leverage. Their best leverage is when the singles come to meet them initially, but as stated above, shadchanim don’t do so because they aren’t comfortable doing so, and the primary reason they aren’t comfortable doing so should be self evident from the way shadchanim are perceived in these posts.

    in reply to: Is there a tactful way to say Shadchan prefers money? #1003268

    AZ
    Participant

    No different than if one hires a plumber or electrician and doesn’t make up ahead of time.

    Al Pi Halacha the homeowner is obligated to pay the going rate and if their is a range the homeowner is within their rights to pay the low end of the going rate.

    What i think some of the posters are having difficulty grasping (myself among them) is why this discussion seems to always center around shadchanim and not plumbers/electricians/dentists etc….. who provide a service and don’t state up front their charges.

    Surely if shadchanim stated a fee upfront this would alleviate this issue, but their reason for not doing so, is because it is their perception that by doing so they would be looked upon askance by a community who that has unfair expectations of them.

    (just look at some of the posts in this thread, and i think we can agree that those comments would never be made expected of plumbers/electricians etc).

    The overwhelming vast majority of shadchanim (even the full timers) don’t look at themselves as in shidduchim for parnassah-although if they don’t end up with some kind of a parnassah for their effrots they obviously won’t able to continue to devote the immense time and commitment that it requires- and thus they are uncomfortable stating fees upfront.

    However, that in no way shape or form changes the obligation to compensate them according to the going rate.

    If the broader communities attitude was that shadchanim should be and deserve to be properly and fairly compensated I think it would be more likely that we would have shadchanim feeling comfortable stating or letting it be known their expectations up front.

    but we are far from that point…..

    For the record i am not a shadchan.

    in reply to: Is there a tactful way to say Shadchan prefers money? #1003242

    AZ
    Participant

    For whatever it’s worth…

    The following information is gleaned from extensive observation of the shidduch scene over a extended period of time.

    Typical shadchanus (i.e. the amounts that are commonly given) in the Tri State area falls in the range of 1,000 to 1,500 each side. This includes Yeshiva people/Balle Batish etc.

    In the heimishe community shadchanus is considerably higher.

    In out of town communities typically a bit less.

    modern orthodox community typically less (despite what it says on SYAS) Perhaps there are people who are trying to change that, but the change has not taken widespread hold yet.

    This is simply a report of the realities on the ground.

    As the posters have repeatedly stated, it is a halachic shayla and requires a halachic determination.

    Often there are complicating factors such as more than one person involved in the role of shadchan. Or where one side is from one community and the other side is from a different community. Does it go by the standards/minhag of the community that the couple is part of, or does it follow the standards/minhag of the community the shadchan is part of.

    These and similar questions should of course be asked to a qualified rov prior paying the shadchan thus ensuring that one properly fulfills their halachic obligation to compensate the shadchan.

    in reply to: Shidduchim – NASI's escrow program has run its course #998126

    AZ
    Participant

    I forgot to mention that in a span of two years, 200 plus different dates, average age getting set up 27 plus, is quite impressive results………

    After all, only the Ribbono Shel Olam makes shidduchim, shadchanim can at most set up dates.

    That is the simple reality.

    in reply to: Shidduchim – NASI's escrow program has run its course #998125

    AZ
    Participant

    Besalel:

    I hope this information will put to rest comments such as yours.

    In the individual participant program that was recently closed down. Over the course of the 2 years that the program was active there had be 125 different participants enrolled ranging from 22-40 years old. The average age of the enrolled young women was 27 years old.

    215 different dates set up, avg. age of young women set up 27.5

    5 married via the program. Including a few that had been dating a very very long time.

    Over two years: $700,000+ is the total amount of money that has been deposited/come thru the program (via participants deposits) in the program

    $2500 ($500 x 5 marriages) is the total revenue to NASI from the program over the course of two years.

    (The shadchanim who made the shidduchim received the appropriate shadchnus for the shidducim they made, from the money that had been placed on deposit on behalf of those now married young women. And the young women’s families were of course thrilled. NASI wrote the checks and sent the monies to the shadchanim.)

    Here is some feedback from participants who did NOT many dates via the program.

    Thank you for all the time and effort that you have undoubtedly invested into the Nasi program.

    Sincerely,

    Wow! I am even more impressed! Shkiach to you for not just being a strong visionary, advocate and manager to the last detail of follow through but also continually reassessing your vision of the best help. I have no idea how you stay so focused and committed but on behalf of all of us singles I want to sincerely thank you. The success is not based alone on the matches made but truly from the sense of support and care we each got knowing that someone is that dedicated to klal Yisroel and our struggle. Thank you for acting as though it was your own struggle and being a model of strength, drive and care.

    Thank you for your efforts.

    Tisku L’mitzvos,

    Thank you for the update.

    May you merit to see lots of hatzlacha in all of your wonderful work!

    Thank you so much for all the efforts you and your staff put in over these years that my daughter was enrolled in the program. Have a wonderful day and wishing you much success on your other projects.

    Good morning sorry to hear of this news . Once again thanks for all the effort you continue to put in for our girls

    Thank you for your continued interest in facilitating shidduchim. Thank you for the integrity that you have that you’re returning our money so easily.

    Yasher Koach,

    My wife and I are sad to hear about the termination of this program. You provided a great service to deal with the Shidduch crisis. Please keep us informed of any future developments

    I just wanted to say thank you so much for putting together the program I was part of and particularly thank you for your efforts on my behalf.

    It is rare today, to find people such as yourself that put so much time selflessly on behalf of others with no incentive. Yes, I was one of those that had a hard time comprehending how such a program is legit, but you proved me otherwise.

    May Hashem grant you the strength to continue the incredible work for many years to come!

    Hi. First of all, I want to thank you very much for your continuous efforts for myself and all of us still searching for our zivug. I know you work very hard at putting these programs together, and I am sure you are seeing and will see much success from them.

    Thank you, for all your hard work. Hatzlacha with all your programs.

    Sincerely,

    Thank you for ur time and investment in the shidduchim area….

    Thanks for all the efforts put into this program – I appreciate it all, and wish you much hatzlachah in all you do to help our girls get married. I certainly think you’ve broken the barrier re the age gap.

    Thank you so much for all your efforts on our behalf. We very much appreciate everything you have done and tried to do.

    Hope to hear more about your new ideas soon.

    now Besalael,

    Currently Nasi is involved in numerous other programs, much like they were prior to and during the time the program above was active.

    One example is the community programs that have been around longer than the private program. These community programs are now active in Toronto, Montreal, Baltimore, Far Rocakway/Lawrence, Los Angelos, Flatbush and other places.

    There have been close to 2,000 different dates set up, Average age of the young women being set up 24 years old, Over 360 different young women have dated seriously (past date #4)

    Tens of different shadchanim involved

    Over 110 marriages have resulted

    And that is just one program they are busy with.

    So Besalel, I hope this should put to rest your concerns.

    (oh, by the way, the people who run NASI, don’t do it as a “job”, they are actually gainfully employed in other productive manners. Please take this as a lesson before villifying irresponsibly. As for your suggestion, that greedy shadchanim drive Nasi’s activities, we’ll just leave that as another of your irresponsible accusations. Anyone with even a remote affiliation with the program now how silly that is. NASI always has and always will be about alleviating the difficult situation-caused by age age- that far to many of the young women in our community find themselves in vis a vis shidduchim. One of the many tactics employed, is to figure out methods to motivate shadchanim to focus on the young women who are under noticed in the shidduch scene. But to think that shadchanim decide or push for NASI policy, is simply sillyness.

    I wasn’t going to write this post, but i figured it would be worthwhile for you to know.

    in reply to: Shidduchim – NASI's escrow program has run its course #998099

    AZ
    Participant

    Not sure why i’m bothering to respond, but i guess since you asked…

    If the shadchanim for those five young women didn’t know the young women prior to the young women and those shadchanim being part of the program, (or if they knew of them but hadn’t redd them a shidduch in a very very long time prior their joining the program,) then i think it’s a fair statement to say that the shidduchim happened as a result of the program.

    Surely the possibility exists that even without any program those young women would have gotten married as the Ribbono Shel Olam is a Kol Yachol and doesn’t really need anyone’s assistance. However that reality doesn’t allow us as a tzibbur to not try our best, and that is the driving force behind everything the NASI Project does. To continue to try their best to alleviate the difficult situation.

    (side note: not sure what you mean by just pay *them* and things will work out. No one got paid anything unless a young women got married via the program. In all – close to a million dollars passed thru the account(a 0% interest account) and NASI received $500 ea. from the five young women who got married via the program. wow- a total of $2500 to NASI in two years. WHAT A WINDFALL. Not to mention the costs in launching and running the program that was completely covered by NASI (and far exceeded 2500).

    The monies of any participant who withdrew received their money in return in full in a timely manner. And now the remainder of all the monies on deposit is of course being returned in full in a timely manner.)

    Not sure why you are so bitter/cynical.

    In any event, that program has run it’s course.

    Onwards……

    in reply to: Shidduchim – NASI's escrow program has run its course #998089

    AZ
    Participant

    147- NASI (thankfully) isn’t disappearing- A quick glance at this weeks newspapers should make that very obvious.

    in reply to: Shidduchim – NASI's escrow program has run its course #998082

    AZ
    Participant

    AZOLis: it is clear that you are very unaware of what NASI has done is doing or is planning on doing.

    The program of money in advance in escrow etc was the smallest piece of what the Project was doing and continues to do.

    If you would like to get involved in the project feel free to contact them and offer your assistance, i’m sure they’d be glad to take you up on your offer.

    in reply to: Shidduchim – NASI's escrow program has run its course #998079

    AZ
    Participant

    Not sure what is not to understand. In the last 6 plus years NASI has been involved in many different efforts to alleviate the difficult shidduch situation. ONE program that was created (and generated a lot of silly talk in the media) was started two years ago. That program is being discontinued now- having run it’s course.

    For thoose who like numbers. That program generated over 200 dates, the average age of the young women getting set up was over 27 years old, and there were 5 engagements directly from that program. Including a few young women who had been dating a very very long time.

    All other efforts of the NASI Project are still active as the project stays true to it’s mission to continue to do whatever it can to alleviate the difficult shidduch situation.

    (one program for example are the various community based programs that have generated close to 2000 different dates, average age of the young women is 24 years old, 360 plus young women have dated seriously and well over 100 engagements via the program- and the young women and their families aren’t even aware of the programs.)

    If you read this weeks newspapers, you will see evidence of other efforts that are underway.

    The program that was discontinued- had simply run its course.

    And of course all funds are being returned having been carefully safe guarded and untouched.

    in reply to: Shidduchim – NASI's escrow program has run its course #998075

    AZ
    Participant

    The NASI Project is B”H very alive and very well and is continuing with its activities of the last 6 plus years.

    One program that started two years ago has run it’s course and was thus discontinued.

    in reply to: Shidduch Crisis Solutions #956993

    AZ
    Participant

    UBI:

    “That was my minor kasha”

    (How interesting… after you previously referred to it as a pircha on the entire age gap concept.)

    These are direct quotes from earlier posts of yours in this thread regarding your question to me about why the shidduch crisis is relatively new

    now that I showed you why you are wrong, you write, it was a “minor kasha,”

    interesting.

    and with a straight face (i assuem you are serios) you write…

    “Not sufficiently answered”

    Interesting…….

    UBI:

    Your intellectual honesty is simply a breath of fresh air.

    I’m retired from discussing with you.

    Hatzlacha Rabba in your efforts. May the Ribono Shel Olam shower your with tremendous hatlzacha in your avodaas hakodesh.

    in reply to: Shidduch Crisis Solutions #956991

    AZ
    Participant

    I don’t know. But it’s very safe to assume that is was considerably smaller than it is today, by the simple observation (among other things) that they typical family had far few children than they do today.

    Which is the explanation as to why the girls 30 years ago didn’t face the same numbers imbalance that they do today.

    Perhaps there are people who have access to accurate data on the birth rate of 30 years ago, i haven’t seen any hard data but it is very possible that there are people who have seen it.

    I’ve yet to come across anyone who doesn’t recognize the self obvious truism that our communities per year rate growth is far greater now than it was then.

    I hope with all your groise kashas sufficiently answered, we can retire this circular discussion.

    in reply to: Shidduch Crisis Solutions #956989

    AZ
    Participant

    corrected:

    Age gap is only a problem if the number of children (girls) in 9th grade, is significantly MORE than the number of children (boys) in 12th grade.

    in reply to: Shidduch Crisis Solutions #956988

    AZ
    Participant

    UBI: if you didn’t understand the simply relevance of what i wrote then i don’t think there’s any hope for you to grasp the issue and thus i fully understand why you don’t grasp the significance of age gap.

    here it is one more time in a nutshell.

    Age gap is only a problem if the number of children (girls) in 9th grade, is significantly fewer than the number of children (boys) in 12th grade.

    the determining factor of how significant that discrepency is will be how many children are born each year. otherwise known as increase in birth rate also able to be measured by children per family.

    B”H our communities are having many more children per year and there are more children being born per family overall, now than was being born then, thus 30 years ago the number of boys in 12th grade was very close to the number of girls in 9th grade because 30 years ago the the community was NOT having 4% more babies each year than the year previously.

    WHAT CHANGED IS a 4% increase in children born per year, this didn’t exist 30 years ago.

    B”H (because more children being born is a bracha of course) it is now happening, and thus the difference of girls in 9th grade to boys in 12th grade is very stark.

    If this isn’t clear enough, then i give up trying to explain it to you.

    I just realized your post earlier. The answer is 2. in other words, 30 years ago there was far less year to year growth.

    in reply to: Shidduch Crisis Solutions #956974

    AZ
    Participant

    MEMO to UBI: 30 years ago family sizes were on average much smaller than they are today.

    Thus, 30 years ago there was almost no concept of age gap, as the number of boys who were beginning shidduchim was close to if not equal to the number of girls who were beginning shidduchim.

    This is a point i made a while back but you choose to ignore it.

    I’ll make it here again one last time.

    If you choose to ignore it again, then i’ll know my self imposed silence was well warranted.

    in reply to: Shidduch Crisis Solutions #956948

    AZ
    Participant

    sorry to break my silence:

    Squeak: your accusation is false and unfounded. An apology is in order but i won’t hold my breath.

    as for Ubi’s assertions that

    1. there are “enough dates to go around”

    2. and there are some girls who don’t get ANY dates.

    They are simply silly statements, and i’m tired of going around in circles with him.

    btw: (how many girls do you know who are 25 and have not dated 5 guys. Are their some girls 25 who have dated 25 guys and some age 25 who have dated 5 guys- yes. But don’t say they have never dated.)

    If you want to talk saychel and discuss that the girls who are less likely to be picked, are the ones who are at risk for being stuck, and thus efforts should be made to create programs for them to get them more shidduch attention.

    Absolutely correct.

    Obviously a girl at 24 that is rich, pretty, in town, right family or whatever other silly criteria we give to make her be “picked” by the boys and get shadchan attention, is going to get more shidduch opportunities than a a girl at 24 who is missing the “appropriate shidduch edge” and thus the girl with less shidduch opportunities is at greater risk of getting left out.

    And that’s why precisely why NASI has various programs in different communities to deal with exactly these issues.

    now back to my self imposed silence/retirement from this thread.

    in reply to: There is NO Shidduch Crisis #955673

    AZ
    Participant

    Haifa:

    you are referencing a sentence from the QUESTIONER that is NOT a sentence from NASI’s response. NASI simply responded to the overall gist of that question.

    Just pointing it out.

    in reply to: Shidduch Crisis Solutions #956904

    AZ
    Participant

    Okay- this is it. Having responded below to the one point that UBI wanted me to respond to, I’m retiring from this thread…

    UBI:

    It we can add more boys to the dating pool

    Or we can hold girls off from entering the dating pool

    Or a combination of both

    These efforts would facilitate easing the imbalance

    Boys can be added by having boys begin dating younger

    Boys can be added by encouraging the chassidishe boys to be welcomed into the non chassidishe dating environment

    Boys can be added by efforts to make more male ballei Teshuva

    Boys can be added by efforts to make more male geirim (look at china as a huge supply)

    Boys can be added by efforts to have fewer boys go completely off the derech (i.e. marrying non religious girls)

    Girls can be held off by encouraging them to not begin dating as young as they currently do

    this could be accomplished in a variety of ways such as encouraging boys/shadchanim to consider close in age shidduchim therby fewer shidduchim for 18/19 year olds, or by having girls enter kindergarten 6 months later than currently so they will end their schooling 6 months later then currently, or some other ideas)

    I could go on and on, but I think you get my drift

    If the numbers are imbalanced because of the ages at which the non chassidishe girls and boys begin dating, then having the boys begin a bit earlier and the girls a bit later helps AND addresses the root cause of the imbalance. And our leaders have encouraged such efforts.

    UBI- HERE GOES- for the sake of your being able to sleep: The reason why according to the age gap explanation of why the numbers were more balanced years ago is

    a. Family sizes were smaller then (30 years ago, how many families had 10 kids?) and thus the year to year difference was not as significant then as it is now.

    Ubi: I hope this satisfies you.

    DY: i’ll leave you to carry it from here…. I think I’m done…

    in reply to: Shidduch Crisis Solutions #956903

    AZ
    Participant

    Truth is 15/20 years ago is not even far enough because as DY accurately point out the numbers of singles in the upper 30’s (started dating 15/20 years ago) male/female is out of wack. It wasn’t as bad then as it has been more recently, but we should really talk 20/25 years back to a time when the numbers were far more aligned.

    in reply to: Shidduch Crisis Solutions #956902

    AZ
    Participant

    UBI:

    I did respond very clearly and very succintly.

    15/20 years ago (and certainly going back farther) the numbers were not imbalanced like they are today.

    In other words, the observation I stated above – that you agree exists today- simply didn’t exist back then.

    Which sentence did you not understand.

    We can discuss why this is true, and why now there is a imbalance. But first lets agree on the facts.

    Do you agree that it’s relatively new that there is such a gross imbalance.

    If you do good- we can go to the next step.

    If you don’t- then we can’t go to the next step.

    How we explain why there is a imbalance now as opposed to yesteryear won’t change the fact that either is or isn’t true.

    I will stick with my statement.

    This is a new phenomana because it’s relatively new that the numbers are so out of balance.

    we can try to give different reasons why the numbers are out of balance. (seems like squeak has been suggesting some ideas) but the WHY of the imbalance doesn’t change the WHAT of the imbalance.

    in reply to: There is NO Shidduch Crisis #955661

    AZ
    Participant

    Fair enough. I will inform NASI that they should send it directly and then the mods can post it themselves.

    in reply to: There is NO Shidduch Crisis #955660

    AZ
    Participant

    Will try one more time:

    Hope the mods let it thru.

    don’t know why you hope the mods will break the law. We cannot reprint copyrighted articles without permission from the copyright holder.

    in reply to: There is NO Shidduch Crisis #955657

    AZ
    Participant

    mod: 95- It isn’t if the NASI Project gave me the letter they sent in along with the letter they received with a request to respond.

    I didn’t cut and past from the Yated! i simply forwarded from NASI with their permission.

    Please put up the post i sent that includes the complete letter along with the complete response

    Thanks

    in reply to: Shidduch Crisis Solutions #956894

    AZ
    Participant

    UBI:

    The short response (i don’t call it a answer, because there is no question):

    15/20 years ago (and certainly going back a bit farther) the numbers were not imbalanced like they are today.

    In other words, the observation I stated above – that you agree exists today- simply didn’t exist back then.

    No observation

    No crisis

    No Pircha

    (or perhaps more accurately put, much much smaller imbalance, much much smaller crisis, to the point that people didn’t notice it)

    If you can just humor me, how can you write with a straight face (I assume you post in all seriousness) that a significant numbers imbalance doesn’t create a major problem in the shidduch scene?

    It should be self evident that it would absolutely do so.

    Simple laws of supply and demand.

    I guess your (incorrect) response is: “I can’t explain why it wouldn’t, but hey, years ago the numbers were also a problem and then it didn’t create a major problem, so whatever the explanation then was, would be true now as well.”

    Am I correct in understanding you?

    If you want to argue, that the numbers aren’t imbalanced- fine

    That is a incorrect position as you yourself agree, but at lest the argument is not self contradictory)

    If you want to debate/discuss WHY the numbers are imbalanced- fine

    If you want to debate how to alleviate or should any efforts be made to alleviate the imbalance-fine

    But to say the numbers ARE imbalanced but that doesn’t make a mega difference.

    Honestly- it’s hard for me to grasp that argument.

    (btw not that this is empirical evidence, but I and my friends were in the shidduch scene 15/20 years ago…. I happen to think – contrary to what you claim- that then the style was also to go to the boys first but i don’t want to harp on this point as it’s really not our core discussion ).

    UBI: for the sake of clarity, I’m assuming your response to this post will to request to explain why the numbers are imbalanced now and they weren’t then. I haven’t touched that.

    in reply to: Shidduch Crisis Solutions #956887

    AZ
    Participant

    UBI

    we can keep on going around in circles, though now mamales position is far more vague (because she tries to explain why the girls have the upper hand by the chassidim and the boys by the non chassidim and she doesn’t present a strong argument for her underlying explanation(s), more good girls, easier to be a good girl, etc. a smorgasbord of unsubstantiated sevaros..)

    But her general idea is the same, the one with the upper hand is the one that gets the name first, and you insist it’s the other way around. You insist that the one who gets the name first thus has the upper hand. and you insist that’s what she is saying.

    It is actually kind of funny, but either way, i’m happy to drop the discussion as to what she said/means etc.

    As for how shidduchim were redd 15/20 years ago. Honestly- i don’t have a good read on that. I’m not really sure if they went to the boys side first or not. It does seem that you are firmly convinced that it wasn’t. I’d be curious as to your proof to this statement, as well as to the explanation why the “halacha” changed. After all, you explain the reason for this “halacha” is protect the feelings of the girls (you may be right)and for some reason this is a new phenomena that shadchanim began to be sensitive to the feelings of the girls, as opposed to 15/20 years ago they didn’t mind hurting their feelings.

    interesting thought…..

    This is all in the spirit of understanding your erroneous position.

    As for your comments about NASI- Please don’t see yourself short. Anyone can do what they did and are doing. They started off (and still are) a tiny tiny operation. Please don’t be afraid- Emes always wins out.

    As for my debate style- that’s okay. But do realize that your “question” doesn’t poke a hole in “the theory”.

    I’m not even sure what “theory” you are referring to.

    Are you referring to

    a. The observation that you yourself agreed to?

    B. The statement that the observation of the imbalance of numbers causes havoc in the shidduch scene?

    C. The explanation as to WHY there is a imbalance in the numbers. I assume it’s not point C- since in this thread i have purposely not even begun to address point C

    So i guess you are “poking a hole” in point B. That a severe imbalance in numbers causes havoc in the shidduch scene. (by the way that statement should be self evident due to the simple law of supply and demand, but i guess it’s not self evident to you) And your proof that the theory is wrong is because

    1. You assume 15/20 years ago there was also the same imbalance of numbers.

    2. 15/20 years ago despite the same imbalance of numbers there was no shidduch crisis.

    Am I understanding your “pircha on the theory” correctly?

    If your answer to this question is yes- I’ll show you why your alleged “pircha” is simply based on a obvious error you are making.

    Let me know

    in reply to: Shidduch Crisis Solutions #956878

    AZ
    Participant

    UBI:

    you seem to continue to disregard the following (obvious) point form her observation.

    “since generally the girls have the upper hand, they are usually first.”

    you seem to reverse that idea and insist on saying that the ones who are first will thus have the upper hand…

    This btw is also why by the non chassidim the boys are first. BECAUSE they have the upper hand.

    As for your explanation why you can’t change the system. Please don’t give up so easily. NASI is only a few years old. Emes will always win. If you are convinced that changing the system will alleviate the crisis- go for it!!

    If you think the system is this way because of NASI-then you are simply not being honest.

    If you feel that NASI has made it harder for you to change the system (by erroneously suggesting that now the boys know they have the upper hand, and prior to NASI they didn’t) then know that your schar for changing the system will be all that much more.

    For whatever it’s worth- I would suggest that the most effective and efficient way to change the dating system (if that’s what you are looking to accomplish) is to adjust the numbers.

    but that’s just my two cents.

    (my offer to explain what changed is still open, but I’ll only explain it if there is a clear understanding of the critical role that the imbalance of numbers plays in the shidduch scene.

    When you are ready let me know.

    By the way, Why do you think by the chassidim generally the shadhcan goes to the girls first and by the non chassidim to the boy first. And once you are at, what’s your pshat why this (i guess you believe) changed and it’s a recent invention to go to the boys first. This is simply because I’d like to understand your (erroneous) position completely.

    in reply to: Shidduch Crisis Solutions #956875

    AZ
    Participant

    Ubi:

    1. So who is now picking and choosing which part of mamales observations re: the chassidishe community they are following??? I agree will all of mamales observations except her interpretation as tho what the underlying cause is. You conveniently only pick the pieces of her observations that “fit” with what you decided is the cause.

    2. The part you refer to as incomprehensible gibberish is simply a quote from golfer. Please direct your comments to him.

    3. The reason why one year won’t make a problem is because there are approx 4% more males than females born in North America each year. This is documented information.

    (this is very possible a significant contributing factor to why by the chassdim -where the boys and girls begin dating at the same age- find themselves with more boys dating than girls though not to the extent that the non chassidim have in reverse.)

    Ubi: here’s a rule of thumbs

    1. When trying to solve a problem make sure to understand the cause correctly. If you don’t properly identify the cause, you won’t be able to properly address the cause and thus won’t properly address the problem. I can’t help if you fail to understand why and how the imbalance of the numbers is so crucial to the shidduch crisis INCLUDING what you refer to as the “halacha” that the shadchan goes to the boy first. Similar to that very same “halacha” being reversed by the chassidim.

    That being said, I wish you best of luck in your attempts to change the dating system.

    in reply to: Shidduch Crisis Solutions #956870

    AZ
    Participant

    UBI:

    mamale’s post states

    a. by chassiddim the girls have the upper hand.

    b. by chassidim the girls are approached first.

    you seem to jump all over those two statements and conveniently ignore her third statement

    c. The girls are approached first BECAUSE they have the upper hand.

    Instead you decided/made up that the girls have the upper hand because they are approached first. Then you decide/made up that whomever is approached first will inevitably have the upper hand, and thus by the non chassidim were presto the reverse is true.

    a. the boys have the upper hand

    b. the boys are appraoched first

    you then decide/made up

    c. the boys have the upper hand because they are approached first.

    and this is despite your agreement that by the non chassidim the numbers favor the boys heavily.(you earlier stated that you agree with my observation)

    UBI: for whatever it’s worth I agree with ALL three statements mamale said.

    a. the girls have the upper hand by the chassidim.

    b. the girls are approached first by the chassidim

    c. the girls are approached first BECAUSE they have the upper hand.

    Please don’t distort my words.

    The only issue i have with mamale is her interpertation as to WHY step a. is true. WHY do the girls have the upper hand.

    She suggested something about more good girls/easier to be a good girls etc, and that simply isn’t the root cause. The overabundance of boys by the chassidim is the root cause.

    I am happy to answer the question that I haven’t addressed yet- regarding the history- only as soon as there is agreement that the issue to be dealt with is why the numbers favor the boys in the non chassidic world.

    A fact you say you agree with, but then amazingly claim doesn’t have much of a impact on the shidduch situation.

    As for your statement to DY, that a one year gap would make a crisis, that is not true (if the boys are older by one year).

    Golfer

    my question was

    Do you agree/disagree with the following statement/observation.

    The number of orthodox non chassidic men who are still single after 5/10 years of dating is significantly fewer than the number of orthodox non chassidic women who are single after 5/10 years of dating.

    Or perhaps I should restate it as follows:

    The number of orthodox non chassidic men between the ages of 30-38 who are unmarried is significantly fewer than the number of orthodox non chassidic women between the ages of 27- 35 who are unmarried.

    Where do you stand on that question:

    Yes

    No

    Unsure

    you say this is your response

    “The refusal on your part (and on the part of others with influence) to broaden the discussion to examine the issue from all sides, will only exacerbate the problem we are dealing with already. I know too many people dealing with older singles to ignore your smug, overbearing attempts at drowning out any voices that don’t align with your idea.”

    I apologize for my poor reading comprehension skills, but is your answer

    Yes

    No

    Unsure

    in reply to: Shidduch Crisis Solutions #956864

    AZ
    Participant

    DY i haven’t (in this thread) even suggested that age gap is at the root of the disparity in numbers. Perhaps there are other causes that have caused the disparity in numbers.

    I’m waiting for Ubi to agree that the focus needs to be on the disparity in numbers as i pointed out in my observation early on n this thread. Until that point, i won’t begin discussing the cause of the disparity in numbers, why it’s a new phenomona and then and only then can we return to the comment of the OP of how to alleviate it.

    we’re getting there, but we are not there yet.

    Golfer:

    1. Actuaries and PHd’s were involved.

    2. If you have questions for specific R”Y please direct your questions to them directly.

    3. you write:

    “Yes, today there are generally larger families in our community. But the ratio of males to females cannot have changed, as those larger families, presumably, are not made up of girls exclusively.”

    I can only assume you posted that erroneously. I will pretend it wasn’t posted because although i haven’t discussed age gap in this thread, that sentence shows a complete lack of understanding of the age gap idea.

    as for any and all other issues. On the individual level each person is a world onto their own. But for the sake of this thread, my discussion will simply focus on the observation i wrote earlier regarding the discrepancy of the number of girls to boys dating.

    where do you stand on that observation??

    in reply to: Shidduch Crisis Solutions #956861

    AZ
    Participant

    Ubi: cute how you misunderstood what mamele said. (not that some anonymous poster on this forum needs to be learned up).

    She writes that shidduchim are redd to the chassidishe girls first BECAUSE they have the upper hand.

    You interpert that to mean they have the upper hand BECAUSE they get redd first

    sorry ubi

    that’s not what mamales wrote and that’s not the facts on the ground..

    for some reason you keep up mixing up the cause with the effect. who gets redd first (effect), is based on who has the upper hand (cause).

    so why is it that by the chassidim the the girls have the upper hand and by the non chassidim the boys have the upper hand.

    sure seems to be a numbers issue.

    now the only issue is to figure out why

    1. by the chassidim the numbers favor the girls and by the litvishe the numbers favor the boys

    2. why this is a relatively new phenonmana. Until you are ready to deal with this issue, i won’t address them. If you take that to mean that i can’t explain it, that’s your (faulty) interpretation.

    (the truth is that whether it’s a new phenomana or not is really not important. lets say 100 years ago the same shidduch crisis existed with 10% of girls not being able to get married, and nothing was done about it then. Does that mean that now nothing should be done about it if there are things that could be done???????

    But it does seem to be a newish phenomena and there is a good reason why that is so.)

    mamale: can you please enlighten us (re: the chassidishe world) at what age the girls enter shidduchim and at what age the boys enter shidduchim? (I’m being facetious. i think it’s pretty well known that both boys and girls enters shidduchim at around the same age.

    in reply to: Shidduch Crisis Solutions #956851

    AZ
    Participant

    Ubi- when you are ready i’ll be happy to explain to you why it’s a recent phenomana, but you aren’t there yet

    almost almost.

    in reply to: Shidduch Crisis Solutions #956850

    AZ
    Participant

    Thanks mammele:

    I’m sure ubi will now need to make up new facts.

    The other thing incorrect about your observation is the underlying cause.

    The statement about good girls and good guys is not the underlying cause.

    The reason that the girls have the upper hand by the chassidim is the same reason that the boys have the upper hand by the non chassidim.

    The reason the shadchan goes to the girls first by the chassidim is the same reason the shadchan goes to the boys by the non chassdidim.

    but ubi would have us beleive that the reason the girls have the uppper hand by the chassidim is BECAUSE the shadhchan goes to them first. In reality it’s the exact opposite.

    The shadchan goes to them first because they have the upper hand

    and they have the upper hand because……….

    by the chassidim there are more available guys than guys

    side note:

    isn’t it ironic how how by the chassidim the concept that there are more “good girls” than “good guys” seems to help the girls, and by the non chassdiim that same comment seems to hurt the guys.

    the answer- that is a made up concept with no basis.

    in reply to: Shidduch Crisis Solutions #956845

    AZ
    Participant

    Ubi:

    I’m having difficulty following…

    You explained why the guys who are “not hard of hearing” are able to do a lot of picking. But what about the guys who are “hard of hearing”, how are they able to keep on picking, shouldn’t the girls keep on saying no to them?

    I mean after all the numbers are equal (or at least in your mind, that plays no factor).

    hmmmm I guess it’s because the “hard of hearing guys” are redd so many shidducim so they can pick one who will finally say yes, and the girls who are “hard of hearing” just sit and no one redds them shidduchim.

    and that is because????

    oh- it’s because the style is to go to the guys first…

    um i think not

    I think it’s because there are simply so many more girls to redd and thus the guys have the upper hand and thus….

    and i think it’s pretty obvious that if/when the numbers are more equal, then guys will have a choice of sitting and sitting and sitting or dating girls that previously would have been unpicked.

    Suppose there was a shortage of girls for the guys, wouldn’t it be obvious that this would alleviate and solve the problem of some girls not getting dates??? In fact it would create a reverse problem for the boys (depending on the degree of the shortage of girls. This is actually what is taking place by the chassidim).

    so the most efficient method of solving your issue is to close the age gap. and one of the very effective and necessary steps to close the age gap is to have boys begin dating slightly younger.

    Whatever, i think at this point we are going in circles.

    I wish best of luck at giving the girls equal dating opportunity while allowing the numbers to be totally out of wack.

    (as for your comment re: misguided people. if you think it’s a lie say it. if you think it’s true but advise against making it known, do realize that significant numbers of Gedolim in EY and tens of R”Y in Americat have signed a letter saying exactly that. If you say it’s a lie and they were mislead- please say so- and be ready to back it up because it’s a very very serious allegation. If you agree to the facts, but are arguing on them regarding the appropriate course of action, i think you are out of place.)

    in reply to: Shidduch Crisis Solutions #956842

    AZ
    Participant

    APY:

    Plenty of shidduchim start from the girls side first.

    Plenty of times it’s the girls families or acquaintances who try to get it redd.

    Unfortunately many times the boy doesn’t give a yes.

    In fact plenty of mothers of boys will tell a shadchan come back to me when you have a yes from the girl. Plenty of times the shadchanim will go to the girl side first, or at the same time as when they approach the boy, knowing/thinking/hoping that they stand a better chance of getting a yes from the boy if the girl has already expressed interest.

    In any event, what is written about it being “unfair” to the girls is correct- but until we realize that it’s a direct function of the unequal numbers of dating…..

    otherwise we can keep on playing the music faster slower or changing the the tune, but the results will still be the same.

    side note: Shadchanim in general have one interest and one interest only and that is to make succesful shidduchim and in order to do that, the only thing they can do is set up dates (hopefully quality dates). Their system for doing things will be governed by how it impacts their ability to set up dates.

    (as for why people who think of a particular girl don’t always tell the girl that they are thinking of her, that’s a discussion for a different time. Some girls would prefer to know that they are being thought of, but many shadchanim prefer to be the “bad guy” and not tell the girl I tried to redd you 10 different shidduchim but all the guys said no. What would you do??

    In any event, with regard to the big picture this issue doesn’t change much. What is clear is that we need a level shidduch field, and so long as the numbers are severely out of wack, the shidduch field won’t be level.)

    in reply to: Shidduch Crisis Solutions #956840

    AZ
    Participant

    APY: Please ask you wife to speak to the alum of her seminary who are 25 and still single.

    Please let us know how many of them have never dated.

    I await your response.

    While i wait, I’ll point out that the difficulty the girls have in getting dates is not the cause, it’s simply the effect of a unequal shidduch scene, like DY has pointed out numerous times. It’s the simple law of supply and demand.

    Is it true, that girls have difficulty getting yesses- Yes

    Is it true that boys are able to “marry up” and girls are pressured to “marry down”- Yes

    Is it true that the above two statements are the result of a large discrepency between ration of available boys to available girls- Yes again.

    Good luck to anyone who thinks they can change the first two issues without addressing the third.

    in reply to: Shidduch Crisis Solutions #956836

    AZ
    Participant

    Ubi:

    Demonstrably wrong: wow, that’s pretty powerful. (and terribly incorrect).

    Ubi:

    How many girls do yo know who are 25 years old and have not dated 5 guys?

    How many girls do yo know who are 30 years old and have not dated 5 guys?

    Is it true that some girls date five guys in five months, sure

    Is it true that some girls date five guys in five years, yes

    It that the crisis

    no

    It might seem unfair, but it’s not the shidduch crisis

    Sure some girls get dates easily, some less easily, but the notion that 12 out of 112 simply are unpicked and never get any dates is just plain not accurate.

    In addition, evening out the numbers WILL absolutley make it MUCH much easier for the girls who currently are having difficulty getting dates. The reason should be obvious as DY has pointed out again and again but you insist on ignoring.

    Can’t help you much more.

    btw ubi: I’m curious, why does it seem to you that the girls somehow suffer from being unpicked but not the guys. I mean for whatever reason girls would be unpicked, there should be similar guy who should be unpicked by the girls. Wouldn’t you think that if there are girls who are (in your words) “hard of hearing” that there should be roughly the same number of guys who are “hard of hearing”, and that despite there being enough dates to go around, they should still not be getting yesses from the girls who don’t suffer from being “hard of hearing”, just like the girls who are “hard of hearing” don’t get yesses from the guys, due to the girls being “hard of hearing”.

    In a world where there are enough dates to go around, why would girls who have options to date guys who are not “hard of hearing”, why would they consider guys who are “hard of hearing”

    Just wondering………….

    in reply to: Shidduch Crisis Solutions #956828

    AZ
    Participant

    ubi:

    Because your assumption that there are 12 unpicked girls who don’t get any dates and won’t get any dates no matter how many boys are in the pool of shidduchim- is simply incorrect.

    This is a point DY has made a few times on this thread, i’m not sure why you keep ignoring it.

    in reply to: Shidduch Crisis Solutions #956817

    AZ
    Participant

    B”H for some clarity.

    It seems like there is agreement re: the observation above. The issue at hand (in this thread) is whether evening out the numbers is the way to go or adjusting the system to level the field amongst the girls.

    The explanation why evening the numbers is the route taken is as DY explained

    “The vast majority of boys do marry within a relatively short time of starting to pursue shidduchim, suggesting that pickiness (on the part of the boys) is not the main issue. Secondly, I don’t think that the girls who don’t date often are completely undesirable to boys; it’s all relative. If there weren’t a “surplus” of girls, boys couldn’t afford to be as choosy.”

    ubi/wrtier/interjection are suggesting that even with the numbers being equal the boys will simply wait and wait and wait. That doesn’t seem to be the reality.

    All this being said, anyone who would like work on making a more efficient system, by all means, you should have the most hatzlacha. Why someone would consider that to be a contradiction to working on evening out the numbers is sometning i don’t fathom.

    (The truth is that making a more efficient system would very possibly have a positive effect on the numbers. If the system was more efficient,then boys would get married quicker. If currently the average boy dates x number of girls before he gets engaged, and it takes y months for that process to run it’s course. Then in a more efficient system, one could posit that the process would take less time and thus essentially lowering their age by a small amount, which in turn will mean closing the age gap. But i don’t think this is was the posters had in mind.)

    in reply to: Shidduch Crisis Solutions #956807

    AZ
    Participant

    ubi:

    1. If i explain why this is a relatively new phenomana will you quit your nonesense? Do you really think, i’ve never thought about if this is a new phenomana? Do you really think you are the first person to ask the question and “blow a gaping hole” in the theory. A theory that in this thread i haven’t even expalined or presented. I have simply noted a observation.

    2. your comment about the chairs shows you are begiing to understand the observation but still missing the point. Could you please explain why boiling it down to 100 chairs and 110 players is to simplistic?? Would giving all 110 players equal opportunity result in any more than 100 players getting a chair?

    will it?

    3. your statement about chassidim is not accurate. Have you done widespread studies. Here’s something to ponder. being that chassidim begin shidduchim at the same age, it would be awfully funny if somehow the boys end up being two years older than the girls. I meant what that basically suggests, is that by chassidim it takes the boys two years longer on average to get married than it does the girls. Anyway, it’s simply not true.

    But if you promise to stop your nonesense once i explain why this is a relatively new phenomona, i’ll be happy to do so.

    If you don’t then i won’t.

    I want to make sure we stay on course regarding the observation above, that you have neither denies, nor expalained how it’s not so central to the entire issue.

    DY:

    In your opinion/experience at which stage is the biggest problem.

    None of the above. You said not to skip a step, but that’s what you’ve done.

    The first step is actually for young men and women to enter into shidduchim,

    and since they do so in uneven numbers, the rest of the process is skewed.

    Brilliant!!

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