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Maybe you can ask those in the school you feel comfortable with to do what we had in high school: The school arranged an after school farbrengen (program/ whatever you want to call it), with a qualified person who can address the struggle (we had someone who had been struggling in this area and had gone modern and then woke up at her engagement when she saw her chosson to be hanging out with her friends who had come to say Mazal Tov. She made a u turn and took a new path fire herself after that), either someone who can personally relate or who doesn’t feel threatened by open honest questions and can address them. The event would be after school and optional, for whoever feels they would benefit from attending.
Getting back to Arso regarding the yichus question. The rabbi I know who’s knowledgeable in this field sent me copies of several pages of a sefer written on this with copious references to other sources. It’s not on Hebrew books and I’m not going to write up and translate the entire thing. I can send you the book title and page numbers if you’re that interested in getting a physical copy.
Or if there’sa way to upload them here, and you want them, lmk.
Yb I’ll get back to you at my next opportunity iyH.
Qwerty
“This explains how he cam gey Aliyahs everyonday amd Thursday.”
Yes that’s the root of it, but that behavior has no sanction by Rabbonim or sources in the Rebbes sichos.
Arso:
“CS: “So we don’t need a new Rebbe to tell us what is needed today- we know exactly what to do”
Does that include breaking the wall of 770? It seems some know that that is exactly what to do, while others know that that is exactly NOT what to do.”
Everyone has free choice. Those who are sincere, speak to their Rabbanim and mashpiim and learn as much as they can, have plenty to do and know exactly what to do…
Arso:
“CS: “which was very real in their reality although it wasn’t true”
I can’t believe a G-d-fearing Yid could write a statement like that in regards to anything at all! It is probably the wokest statement that I have seen in YWN.
Real in their reality but not true?! If it’s real, it’s true. If it’s not true it’s not real.”
Look I’m sorry you never came across this. There’s two realities: Hashem is the Only Existence period. 2) I’m here.
Hashem created this world with these two senses of reality, and our avoda is to realize and internalize that the truth is 1, and make that true in 2.
Now these two realities can seem conflicting sometimes. The Yidden really saw a funeral. Moshe was still very much alive.
Yakov was embalmed and buried. He was alive and opened his eyes and smiled when Esavs head was knocked off.
Arso,
“That is until Lubavich, in their great humility, decided to use it for themselves.”
Is calling ourselves the chosen nation arrogant? No because it’s much more of a responsibility and liability. Taking the title of Nassi means taking responsibility to be there for every Jew in any way needed. If you feel your Rebbe behaves in this way, feel free to call him nassi too. I really don’t care.
DaMoshe:
“CS: I’d use your medical analogy, but turn it against you. If a 3 year old would read a medical text cover to cover, would you trust what the kid says regarding medicine? No, because they can’t hope to understand it.
Learning chassidus/kabalah as the primary type of Torah is like a 3 year old reading a medical text. You can’t hope to understand it, because the foundations are in Chumash, Mishnayos, and Gemara. You may think you’re an expert, but you’re not, because you’re missing the foundations. You just twist the words to suit your goals – just like the story I wrote earlier, painting the targets around the arrows.”Chassidus is not the same as kabbala, it’s basically the essence of Torah which can bring together all the other parts and apply it to human understanding. (You’re welcome to learn kutres inyana shel Toras HaChassidus for more info and sources.) Because it always ties down to the practical, it’s not dangerous. I think what is dangerous is litvishe people coming with their understanding of Hashem’s Unity, hashgocha protis, Rebbe, Neshama, yid etc, and then seeing a one liner here or there- they’re the ones who seem to have difficulty understanding Chassidus. It’s not that they’re less smart. Is that they may have less education on these topics, as the essence of them is not discussed well in nigle, and they just throw these things around like a joke. Like the Atzmus sicha.
Arso,
“You can’t – I really feel like swearing here! – quote Rashi and then say, “Ignore the part that says 45 years because that doesn’t work for me.”
Can you find any example of others on this thread who have done anything like that? I don’t think so. Men who are bnei Torah – even not the greatest of talmidei chachomim – NEVER argue that way because we know it is nonsensical. If you’re going to have a discussion with men, you can’t argue that way either!”
Ok please explain how Rashi could have brought the number 45+ when his sources in the Medrash gives a different number?
Secondly, why is it a problem to say geula can always come quicker? If it has to conform to a number, why are you a kofer if you don’t expect Moshiach every day? Especially if the number is exactly 45+?
Thirdly, if even a NEVUAH that is negative can be completely abolished, why is it crazy to say that Moshiach can come way sooner than the number a mefaresh says?
Fourthly, if even the various sources on the topic disagree on the length, and various sources say it is a TEST, why can’t I conclude that the main idea is there, the difference is in the details of time- which implies that we don’t know the exact time, because as stated, it’sa TEST?
Fifthly I’d be delighted to stop answering to this and let a male take over. Looking for proper candidates who will explain things clearly without avoiding what the Rebbe said and did.
Arso,
“Simply, it doesn’t make sense. If the LR was himself Mashiach why refer to his father-in-law as Mashiach? And why “get answers” from his father-in-law’s grave? Wasn’t he good enough to be Mashiach on his own, or has Mashiach in your mind become a Siamese-twin concept? (Please don’t tell me that since the Rambam doesn’t say anything against it, that might indeed be the case ☹.)”
The Rebbe was completely batul to his father in law, and only finally agreed to take on the nesius when his wife, (FR’s daughter) told him that if he doesn’t do so, all her fathers work will go to waste. The Rebbe was Malchus which is the sefira that doesn’t have anything of its own but crowns the next level. The Rebbe campaigned for every chossid to have a mashpia and this was the Rebbes mashpia. Etc. in Lubavitch we have no problem being batul to the Rebbe, seeing how great he was and yet so incredibly batul to the Frierdiker Rebbe. In any case the Moshiach of the generation The Rebbe always considered his father in law. In the last two years of The Rebbes nesius, we saw some indications that this had switched to the Rebbe as the head of dor shvii.
“In lubavitch, a Rebbe is not an inspirational yid.”
Your naivete is showing once again! I have never heard a chossid of any Rebbe referring to his Rebbe as simply being an ‘inspirational Yid’. When will you learn that all the garbage taught to you in your Chassidic hashkafa classes – call them what you will – was designed to have you believe (wrongly, of course) that Lubavich is on an unbelievably higher level than Menagdim, Pailisher chassidim etc? It is all a crutch for you to lean on when you come face to face with people whose hashkofos are really Torah-true, and to prevent you realising that yours are false, misleading and dangerous.”
No I actually got this education from outside of lubavitch starting from when I was in eighth grade and a Rebbes granddaughter was boasting about her zeidas car and it didn’t compute in my head that that would be something of importance to a Rebbe until she explained to me that their Rebbes aren’t the same anymore due to yeridas hadoros. Btw even the mashpiim etc of lubavitch, who understand as much about the Rebbe as a goat does, to quote R Hillel Paritcher, who was actually a tzaddik (not that todays are), could care less about physical status symbols.
It then continued with the exposure to other groups and their lack of understanding of our natural bitul
to the Rebbe, which makes sense in this light.Finally, your question about just replacing the Rebbe and a certain candidate you and others have referred to, just all confirm the same thing. My idea of a Rebbe and yours are completely different. Apples and oranges.
“He said, “They should not be singing a niggun of a group who consider only themselves as having the true path.”
We don’t consider ourselves as having the only true path, but we chose it because we think it’s the best path (as I hope others feel they found the best for them) and we feel incredibly lucky to be the Rebbes chassidim.
“but there are references to it being the dor hashvii”
What are the sources of those references?”
Fair question. This is really inside info though only meant for those individuals who are already living with a geula mindset and seriously interested to know for the right reasons. I can tell you that if you learn the sichos of 5751 and 5752, especially with a Lubavitcher, and pay attention to the footnotes, there’s a ton of info in them, including what you’re asking. I know you won’t be doing that, but that’s my part in answering.
“And while I’m on a quest for sources, can you please provide a source for your claim that when the Ramban said we rejected yoshke because yoshke had died, he did not really mean it, and he only said it because that was all he could say?”
I’ve asked someone, in the meantime, you and YB should please answer how the Ramban could contradict the gemara (think it’s sanhedrin 98) which says that Moshiach can come from the dead or the living, and Rashi brings two examples of individuals thus suited from both. We all know the Gemara predated the Ramban.
Ca
That’s a different discussion. We all know what we saw happened on Gimmel Tammuz, we can all see the clues in the sichos and the Rebbes actions in hindsight. And yet, there are references that make it clear to us that there’s a lot more here than meets our eye. We have various sources that bridge the gap such as the Rabbeinu Bachya mentioned, but ultimately no one will know until this period is over.
Qwerty
“He may have been your leader but he certainly wasn’t the leader of Klal Yisrael.”
How about you may not consider him your leader but myriads of Jews from all walks of life were touched by the Rebbe, and many many from all backgrounds came to him for personal interaction and guidance Yechidus and dollars.
“ As for me being arrogant for calling myself doctor. That’s the title I earned and was given to me by the state of NY. Should I tell my patients to call me qwerty?”
Sorry I didn’t remember your stated profession. It was meant to be an innocent example.
“ You keep returning to my supposed slander. We both agree that the Rebbe called himself god clothed on human form. You choose to believe that thos is correct. I choose to believe, as do all rational Jews, that this is Kefirah.”
It is evident from the way you post about it that your understanding of it is kefira. That’s unfortunate but when I was a high school girl and learned it in the sicha it’s in by “chance”, I didn’t understand it the way you do, and no Lubavitcher would.
I heard a farbrengen given to girls your age. I can’t sum the whole thing here because no one likes king posts and it takes much time to write up.
Main points: our natural instincts are good and wonderful, and need to be guided to the appropriate place. Let’s say a girl is going to fast for her first time: she might start panicking, feeling she won’t survive the fast. Instead of ignoring and fighting her feelings, she can realize that yes, if she doesn’t eat for three days, she could die, but the fast is not 3 days so she’ll be ok. Working with your feelings instead of fighting them. And putting them in perspective.
In this case, it’sa wonderful attraction Hashem created to the other gender. It helps us marry and build loving stable homes. But there’sa time and place for it. And it needs to be the right person too.
Any of our natural instincts are powerful and therefore can be hard to fight. Hashem gave them to us as a gift and we need to use the brains Hashem gave us to make sure the gift is being used the way it’s meant to be, because otherwise it can be destructive.
Arso, I guess I wasn’t clear. The sources are all in the sicha shoftim 5751. What I meant was not physical advice, but rather someone using Nevuah to tell someone else something regarding physical matters which they wouldn’t have known otherwise. Like Shaul and the donkeys, and obviously more weighty things as well.
The other thing, I think many other Tzaddikim and Rebbeim pre the world war did this, it was quite common then. I’ve heard the same about the Baba Sali. This is not something unique to lubavitch, although after the war it was alot more rare it seems, for someone to have directed others in this area with certainty, not just as a brocha or wish which is also beautiful but not on the table
YB:
I understand why the Chassidim of then were buttressing their position. It did seem impossible for things to end up this way, much as it must have seemed impossible for Moshe to delay coming (which was very real in their reality although it wasn’t true.) I’m not here to answer for every Lubavitcher as an individual. We are not collectively holding by beinoni/ tzadik, at least the communities I’ve seen. I’m here to answer questions and open to seeing sources inside.To qwerty
I’m sorry you didn’t understand my previous post. The point is they were one Neshama split between two bodies, so both are correct. Although very later on, the Rebbe hinted it would be Moshiach as nassi of the seventh generation- so that would mean his body.Qwerty,
I’m sorry you’re not understanding the subject. I did explain it as simple and short as I could. Maybe the online forum style isn’t the way you learn? Regardless it doesn’t give you the right to slander a tzadik based on your lack of knowledge on the subject. If someone would open a medical book, not take the time to read it properly, and then say the head surgeon doesn’t know what he’s doing, what does that say?Qwerty,
The Rebbe didn’t make up the term Nassi, it’s found in rashi, and other sefarim. The other Rebbeim used it too , as far as I know. In any case it’sa description of a position. No more arrogant than you going by the title of your profession.Yb, I didn’t answer abc 123, because I challenged what you wrote in a, and explained it. So the following ones are irrelevant/ change once that’s there. Again if you find a source in Toras Menachem or sefer HaSichos, please post. Otherwise I can’t comment as there’s no evidence
CA
you’re right, I should’ve clarified. By yetzias mitzrayim, there was only disappearance. My point was that you can’t always take what looks and seems like fact for granted, because before the eigel, Moshe looked like he was being buried by the Malachim in shomayim.Also there’s the Rabbeinu Bachya on parshas Vayechi, where he says that a true tzadik like Yakov and Rabbeinu Hakadosh, has two physical bodies, a guf gass, and guf dak. The guf gass is buried but the guf dak lives on, and that’s how Rabbeinu hakadosh kept coming home and making kiddush after his passing (must have been physical body or wouldn’t have been motzi the others). The Rebbe referenced this in relation to the Frierdiker Rebbe
Arso and YB, I cannot reply to that which happened before my time and I’m unaware of. If you find a sicha printed, (they’re all the same) where the Rebbe said no one at all will be hurt or killed, there’s something to talk about. And yes, it makes sense that the Chassidim were excited about the Rebbes prediction and applied it in ways that the Rebbe himself had not said (although within the same spirit.)
Regarding the Ramban, like I said it’s a plugsa bemetzius. What I remember is either true or isn’t. If someone knows and can reference, that would be helpful.
Regardless, I posted other sources to back up what I said about the stages.
Arso, the point is they all say the concealment period is different times. It’s not Halacha, and obviously the geula will not be delayed when we merit it because we have to fit exactly 45 years + the bit he mentions.
Btw, to YB:
Knowing history, I’m not surprised The Rambams didn’t use the most obvious argument- that yoshke was never Moshiach material, (as Rabbi Immanuel Schochet A”H did in his debates), even though that should be fairly obvious to us all, I hope, because it probably would have cost him his head.
Qwerty
“Rabbi Butman, on jis radio program, regularly says that when Moshiach comes there won’t be any more Shnayim Ochzin Bitalis. Rather we’ll only have the Kabbalistic meaning of the Gemara. Thos attitude explains why Lubavichers don’t care what Rambam or the Gemara says. They think we’re in a new era where Kabbalah reigns.”I’m not familiar with his shiurim, but he was probably referring to what it says in Tanya, that because forgetfulness comes from klipa, we won’t need to learn Halacha more than once as we won’t forget it. Also, the Tanya continues, it could be that by learning the mysticism behind the Halacha, we will anyways know the Halacha. Therefore, our time will be spent on the secrets of the Torah, but this is not because we won’t keep Halacha, au contraire as above.
In fact, the Rebbe always sent people to Rabbanim, and stressed that any changes in observance of Halacha can only happen through Rabbanim.
Arso, I agree with you that the ultimate vision is not to take care of just not frum. The ideal vision that The Rebbe left us with is that every yid is a shliach. Whatever their talents are, whether in shlichus, teaching, business etc. they do that job with a sense of shlichus, always looking out to help other yidden come closer to Hashem, as well as themselves, and prepare the world for Moshiach.
Arso,
“Hold on a second. The Lubavicher rebbe claiimed his father-in-law was Mashiach? So was he wrong or right? If he was wrong, then you admit that he could be wrong, and thus possibly wrong in other statements. If he was right, then his father-in-law was Mashiach – and btw he hasn’t been alive for over 70 years and has still not returned! – so your rebbe was not Mashiach.”
The Rebbe was completely batul to his father in law, and even took the panim he received to the Frierdiker Rebbes ohel, where he would come back with the answers. When the Rashag was once pressed as to why he dropped his bid to become Rebbe, and became a chossid of his brother in law, he said that since the Frierdiker Rebbes histalkus, he hasn’t heard from him, whereas his brother in law, The Rebbe claimed to be in touch. One thing I know, he said, I’d that my brother in law is not a lier. So I became his chossid.
Basically they’re one essence, even more than the other Rebbeim, as this kept up the entire nesius. So either way is fine, but there are references to it being the dor hashvii etc.
“Having had tons of experience with Lubavich obfuscating (another word which I never get to use, so please mods don’t delete that word!) I am guessing that you will answer something along the lines that they are really the same person and the neshama has moved from one to the other, being “nesi’im” of Chabad. So if that’s the case, simply appoint another live “nasi” and he wil be a live Mashiach, removing so many of the problems.”
2 answers:
1. In lubavitch, a Rebbe is not an inspirational
yid. We have Mashpiim and Rabbonim. He is an extension of Moshe Rabbeinu, who stood
between the yidden and Hashem, whose every word is Hashem’s word. (A Rebbe doesn’t know everything, but whatever he says in response to a chossid is from Hashem. Like the time The Rebbe advised someone to miss their place with later crashed- when asked why he didn’t say the reason so more people could have been saved- he said he didn’t know the reason. He just knew that the person shouldn’t get on.) this applies in Avodas Hashem- what is this persons personal shlichus in this world, generational shlichus etc. And also to help people connect to Hashem and help them receive Hashem’s brachos, which may have been impeded by certain things with the Rebbe tells the person to take care of (being more careful with a certain Mitzvah etc.)If you need a tailor, even if there’s an abundance of plumbers, it’s not gonna help you. Same here, there is simply no one else of Rebbe material in Lubavitch, and if you’rea good mashpia or Rav, that’s wonderful, but you’re nota a Rebbe.
Answer 2: The Rebbe told us all that were the next Rebbe- meaning he turned over the mission he devoted his life to, to us. So we don’t need a new Rebbe to tell us what is needed today- we know exactly what to do and have the tools to do it. By the Rebbes kevura, the shluchim promised not to stop their shlichus, and to carry on until we succeed in bringing Moshiach, which is what we were tasked with. So it’s irrelevant.
Qwerty,
“I asked CS to give an example of my having spread Loshon hora. She answered that I accepted the lie that the Rebbe is god. The problem is that the Lubavichers in a different thread said that the Rebbe announced in 1962 that he’s god clothed in human form. So I’ve spoken Lishon hora by repeating what the Rebbe said about himself.”
No, the way you presented it, due to your lack of understanding, indicated that The Rebbe is god Himself- like god who took his whole self and became a person. That’s NOT what The Rebbe said, whether the words sound similar or not, and anyone with a basic background of Chassidus would know.
The Rebbe meant the exact opposite, that the potential of every Jew, which the Rebbe is the head so able to actualize it, is to completely negate his sense of separate selfhood, and tap into his true identity of his Neshama which is one with Hashems Atzmus (not that he limits Hashem to being enclothed in one body cvs- rather- you look at him and see Atzmus- that he’sa G-dly person.)
Hope that clarifies.
DaMoshe,
“CS, it was reported by a Yaakov Zisholtz. I have no idea who he is. If I Google him, I don’t find much. So no, I wouldn’t trust it.”
Ok that’s fair
Ca,
“Cs,
Disappearance doesn’t mean die (moshe rabbeinu didn’t die when he “disappeared”
I guess you missed the heavenly funeral bit. For starters
Regarding the question about the gulf war from yb, that’s a legitimate question. I’ve asked about it, and here’s what the rabbis reply was:
Regarding the gulf war:
The Rebbe said that we will see miracles and that Yidden are safe in EYChassidim decided that it must mean that there will be no missiles etc. They publicised that and it caused a chillul (as it is not what he said)
https://www.chabad dot org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/62184/jewish/1991-Missiles-Miracles.htm
https://derher dot org/wp-content/uploads/103-adar-5781-7.pdf
Ps. Arso I haven’t finished with the yichus piece- looking into it thoroughly.
DaMoshe:
“CS, it was reported by a Yaakov Zisholtz. I have no idea who he is. If I Google him, I don’t find much. So no, I wouldn’t trust it.
If you take one prediction the Rebbe made that came true, and use that as a sign that he was a Navi… there are plenty of people who made predictions that came true, including Shabsai Tzvi.
When my wife and I were going through fertility treatments, we were having a lot of difficulty, and our doctor told us to give up. We got a bracha from a Rav that our next IVF should work, and B”H it did. Does that mean he was a Navi?
There were sports players who predicted that they’d win a game, and they did. Maybe they’re nevi’im too?”Firstly this was a major prediction that no one else made and came with a lot of achrayus. Secondly, in the sicha, The Rebbe referenced the Alter Rebbe as saying that Chassidim should only ask for spiritual guidance, because guidance for physical matters belongs to neviim as Shaul asked the Navi Shmuel about his lost donkeys… yet we see that all Rebbeim, including the Alter Rebbe, did dispense advice about physical matters, which indicates they were neviim.
Also, anyone can give a brocha and hope for the best, but at least in one instance, someone asked his Rebbe for not a bracha, but a havtacha, to which his Rebbe said that if he wants a havtacha, there’s only one place in the world- Lubavitch. The man did go to The Lubavitcher Rebbe, and did end up getting a havtacha. There are countless stories where The Rebbe told people not to have life saving surgeries, and similar situations, which turned out fine. Jem put out 2 books of such stories so far, with the individuals names and pictures, that they culled from their videoed interviews. There’s also much more online with jem media.
Wow alot here:
YB: Regarding the Ramban, I have heard that it’s won somewhere, (this is either a fact or not, I’ll look into if others don’t know) the mode of refutation in those says, when the whole thing was dangerous to begin with, was not done in a completely truthful way The way we see things, but on their terms. So even if it may say something different in Torah shebaal peh, they would still argue it because the notzrim only cared about Torah shebichsav.
Regarding the sources for the stages of revelation, concealment, final revelation, here you go (was on page 3):
משיח נגלה ונכסה וחוזר ונגלה
אשרי המחכה וגו’. ארבעים וחמש שנים נוספים על חשבון העליון שעתיד משיחנו להתכסות אחר שנגלה וישוב ויתגלה. וכן מצינו במדרש רות, וכן יסד רבי אליעזר הקליר )בסילוקיוצרפרשתהחדש(ויתכסהמהם ְשבּוִעיםששה.
(רש”י דניאל יב, יב)משיח יתכסה כגואל הראשון
ויהיה הגואל נגלה וחוזר ונכסה כדי להתעות את העכו”ם ולהקשות את לבם, שכן מצינו בגאולת מצרים שנגלה להם משה וחזר ונכסה מהם, וזהו שדרשו רבותינו ז”ל: ויפגעו את משה ואת אהרן, אחר ששה חדשים נגלה הקב”ה במדין וא”ל: לך שוב מצרימה, בא משה ממדין ואהרן ממצרים ופגעו בהם שוטרי ישראל כשהם יוצאים מלפני פרעה. וכן דרשו במדרש חזית: דומה דודי לצבי, מה צבי זה הוא נראה ונכסה וחוזר ונראה, כן גואל הראשון נראה להם וחזר ונכסה מהם וחזר ונראה להם. וכמה נכסה מהם, רבי תנחומא אומר שלשה חדשים, הדא הוא דכתיב ויפגעו את משה ואת אהרן. רבי יהודה ב”ר אומר ללריסין, כלומר לשון פגיעה לפרקין היא. וכן הגואל העתיד יהיה נגלה וחוזר ונכסה, שהרי גאולה זו עתידה
(רבינו בחיי פר’ ויחי עמ’ מד)להיות כדמיון גאולת מצרים בהרבה ענינים.
נסיון גדול
וזה נסיון גדול שנעלם הגואל ששה חדשים, וכן יהי’ בימי משיח צדקינו, יהי’ נעלם אחר התגלות כדאיתא במדרש וה’ יעמוד לימין הצדיקים בבי”א.
(תורת משה פר’ שמות)DaMoshe
“ CS, again, as I said earlier, it’s not “well known” that R’ Chaim met Mashiach. It’s one person who claimed R’ Chaim said it to him.”
Interesting. So the response of the Litvishe world to what I thought was well known is to doubt it? Was the person who said it reputable?
Qwerty, apparently some of my posts last night were posted after your new queries, so hopefully the answers will have come through above. I hope all your questions were answered, please lmk if not
Arso,
I don’t know you personally, what I do know is that you have a bitter bias against Chabad, so unfortunately I cannot take your word that you heard (and you’ve never said you were in 770, somehow I don’t picture you at a farbrengen). I hope you understand
About your second point about Eretz Yisrael being the safest place, the way I appreciate it is that because there is no sar appointed to Eretz Yisrael, everything there is not just hashgocha protis, but very very pinpointed. Like on simchas Torah, got many stories were there of people who davened or took on one Mitzvah, and were inexplicably saved? When I was there, I felt it. I hadn’t experienced an atmosphere of a place beforehand, but I felt it there.
And yes, there may have been an extremely limited number of people who died from side effects, but the natural death occurrences elsewhere (traffic accidents) were probably higher than the supernaturally minuscule number of tragedies.
Ca
“ You along with the notzrimA second coming……”
I hope you agree with the notzrim that we should await Moshiachs coming every day. Oh and believe in Moshiach to begin with. Otherwise…
What the notzrim believe or not doesn’t make something treif. It’s whether it’s Torah or not. The notzrim are wrong first and foremost because yoshke was a rasha and was never fit to be Moshiach to begin with.
Now I don’t think there’s any Torah sources for someone who started the job, and didn’t finish/ was killed or otherwise thwarted, to continue to consider them Moshiach.
The debate is if someone started and, at least to our eyes, passed away, but their work and personal influence continue, what then? There’s room to say (and the Rebbe actually wrote this about the Frierdiker Rebbe) that he could then have techias hameisim with the first round of Tzaddikim (40 years earlier than
the rest) and finish the job.I listed earlier in the thread, there are classical sources (rashi, Medrash, Rabbeinu Bachya, The Chasam Sofer) that say that Moshiach will start the job and then disappear for a period of time, and that this disappearance is a test of Emuna.
Qwerty
“ You accused me of writing Loshon hora. Please present tangible example(s) of Halachic Loshon hora that I wrote.”Actually I said you accepted lashon hara, but you repeated it too so I guess that qualifies 😀.
How about saying that The Rebbe said he’s god? Although the words may seem similar they are poolat and extreme opposites. If you don’t take the time to understand something serious properly, and then you parrot it, it’s actually not lashon hara, it’s motzei shem ra.
Now you don’t understand it- that’s ok. I tried to put it very simply (did you see that post)? And it’s always best for complex matters to discuss it properly. You can call Rabbi Zajac for example.
YK which two you turns are you talking about? I do my best to be honest
“ Apples and oranges ”
Mr mod, while I admire your admirable approving/ editing, I disagree with you here. It’s not just about the Rebbe being Moshiach (and he claimed his father in law as such…) it’s also about Nevuah (he showed how nevuah was present by all Rebbeim.) in other words, anything atypical. I should add the reverence the Chassidim have naturally, seeing who the Rebbe was and is, is called avoda zara even though all the original sources on the topic describe the way one should view his Rebbe exactly as we do. (Think Rambam, Pirkei Avos etc)
Hence the natural conclusion is that this particular crowd of Jews is not used to being exposed to things beyond the realm of nature (whereas that was the expected with the Rebbe.) Which leads to the attitude in this demographic of, if it’s not what I’m used to/ what’s typical, it must be wrong/ person must be arrogant / misleading etc etc etc
You a sorely misunderstanding the conversation
Btw all of this has taken on practical importance to me in the past few days. Seeing the hostage release proposal, which is below stupid seeing that we have experience from the shalit deal (sinwar was released then), October 7, etc etc, and then looking around the government/ parties to see who would be best to pin hopes on leading Eretz Yisraels security so as to be a keili for Hashems miracles… And there’s literally no one.
The not frum crumble under the vast internal and international pressure (just look at this hostage plan from the best smooth talking diplomat).
The frum don’t really mix into Israel’s security, and mainly focus on frum matters such as the draft etc. Many of them were also told by their Rabbonim to support the withdrawal from gush katif, oslo etc. which we all see what it has led to.
We had a religious Zionist who also made incredible compromises of values.
There’s really no one. The only one who pushed the formulas which have been successful in EY, advised countless security members including Prime Ministers, effectively, and was proven right every time was The Rebbe. The Rebbe pushed for shleimus Haaretz (no giving away our land both because it’s ours and for security), shleimus haam (fought for Mihu Yehudi) and shleimus HaTorah (without the hundreds of shluchim in EY, the so called chilonim would not be as Mitzvah observant as they are- shabbos candles, kashrus, Yomim Tovim, not to mention baalei teshuvah etc etc etc)
He also advised on how to counter international pressure.
The Rebbe could also unite the people around him as he is well loved by many disparate populations there.
Really, all there is to do is to daven that the first stage of techias hameisim happen ASAP (Tzaddikim rise earlier), with Moshiach with them, and finish off the job he started.
Agav, Chabad cannot otherwise be part of the government, because the policy is to stay apolitical to be able to unite all yidden around Torah and Mitzvos. There have been one or two exceptions but this is the policy.
Forgot to say a gutte voch from my locality
Just for everyone’s info: taking a public stance
comes with liability. My father was a Bochur during the gulf war, and the lubavitch bochurim would go to the rooftops during sirens and watch the scuds explode. The Rebbe promised…Arso I looked up צפונות שנה on Hebrew books as you suggested. No such sefer there.
Mod: “Rav Chaim saying he met moshiach is not ‘same here’ to claiming he is moshiach.”
Of course not, but it seems the problem here is that people don’t believe anyone saying anything out of the ordinary, and think that if they do, they must be delusional, arrogant and fooled their followers. Hence my bringing in Rav Chaim Kanievsky, the Sar HaTorah (better DaMoshe?) of the Litvish world. As far as I know, it isn’t common to claim to have met Moshiach, and he has passed away since. So I’m curious how people take that- the same ones who are so incredulous about Chabad.
Apples and oranges
Gutte voch from my locality. Gezh last names are usually known. If your last name is Johnson etc, you’re not. The whole lubavitch is connected so easy to find out who’s who.
Btw regarding Rav Kanievsky, it’s well known he claimed to have met Moshiach. Having heard that he was a serious Talmid Chacham, Gaon etc I take that at face value. I’m curious if all the scoffers here scoff at their own Rabbi too? And say he must be arrogant and delusional cvs to say such a thing? Or they only scoff when it comes to lubavitch? I don’t think anyone demanded proof or outside sources to prove he want some sort of delusional rasha etc as a few here insinuate.
He said what he said and is up to you to believe him. You believe him if you know him to be a legit person. Same here
Rav Chaim saying he met moshiach is not ‘same here’ to claiming he is moshiach.
Qwerty,
“I should have made my point more clearly. Hashem gave Moshe signs that had been passed down from Yaakov and Yosef. He brought those signs to the Gedolei Hador and they recognized him as the Goel Tzedek. The Rebbe made up signs that he gave to his followers. If the Rebbe actually had communication with Hashem then he should have gone yo the Gedolim to get Haskamah. It’s quite obvious why he didm’t choose that tack”
Qwerty, The Rebbe wasn’t trying to prove anything to anyone. As I said there’s a three stage process, and at this point, The Rebbe was only interested on letting those strongly connected to him, know. The stage of Moshiach Vadai hasn’t happened yet. The preliminary stage is about the people deciding who is a candidate, for Moshiach with their Rabbanim etc.
BH we are blessed with many towering Rabbanim- I have a personal connection with 6 myself. Rav Schochet who just passed away is irreplaceable: he had some level of ruach hakodesh himself- he was instructed by The Rebbe to give brochos on Shmini Atzeres every year- and in his brochos- would actually tell them how their year would go, and he would deal with things that others didn’t feel they had a handle on- say- people who were possessed but otherwise mentally well, and interpreting dreams. Obviously in addition to all the regular stuff.
Arso, interesting admit Rav Chaim Kanievsky. I saw a newspaper clipping from the period- it ran a headline on the Rebbes claim- it didn’t say several Torah leaders including the Lubavitcher Rebbe claim…
Was he public about it?
Secondly, you have homework now: (I’ve saved mine from the other day): 1. Proof that The Rebbe said not one Jew will die
2. Proof for your claim that indeed two Jews died directly from the rockets