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CSParticipant
Wow I missed alot… just replying in order till the next time…
Avira,
“ CS, there are two halachik reasons why we don’t teach Torah to women, and neither have anything to do with their domestic responsibilities or chazals time and place.
The first reason is that they make Torah into divrei havai.
The second reason, in the yerushalmi, is that they’re easier to persuade than men to do an averah, and Torah makes one able to be tricky if they choose, so that’s a dangerous combination.
My argument is according to the first reason. ”
Firstly, this is mostly non applicable today, as noted, Torah Shebichsav is studied by virtually all from girls schools and endorsed by Rabbonim. Ok to varying degrees. Some allow more than others. Not sure why you’re picking on something mostly irrelevant Today.
Secondly it was never a blanket rule or else Rashi would not have taught his daughters, Tge Or HaChaim HaKadosh wouldn’t have written his peirush (based on shiurim with his daughters) etc etc.
The Alter Rebbes grandmother learned Gemara and taught her daughter to also. Apparently the people following the path of the mekubalim (which preceded Chassidus) allowed it, and the opponents of kabala didn’t. I’m sure you know this was way before Sara schenirer.
CSParticipantJust one more thought before i never see responses, I find the attitude of concern of דברי הבאי, to be a curious one. I suppose within Chabad, the attitude towards anything good(including the topic here- women’s learning) is more on the lines of
הבא לטהר מסעיין לו
מתוך שלא לשמה בא לשמה (אא״כ שלא לשמה ממש בשביל איזו פני׳ה כו׳)
הכל בחזקת כשרותEtc etc. Along with a strong emphasis for personal responsibility to check with a mashpia/ Rav when in doubt. And my part of keeping my head cleared of non Jewish ideology/ philosophy, so I don’t mistake it for Torah.
Something interesting: I recently finished writing up bH a motivational Tznius farbrengen curriculum (80+pages bH), for a high school that commissioned it.
I had assumed that the male principal of the school, who was interested in upgrading the tznius program, would look it over, and it included the hashkofos I’ve learned and imbibed and also, I wanted to make sure to get it right because many girls will iyH be learning it.
However, it became clear that no one was planning on checking it, aside from the post sem leaders who were going to give it over.
I was very careful to write based on sources, and in fact, the leaders asked me to list exact sources so they could present them or look them up at will.
I was happy they asked and spent double the time annotating with sources- from Rashi, Rambam, Gemara, Mishna, Shulchan Aruch, Chassidus etc.
I asked a scholarly cousin to look it over, and my husband as well, but they weren’t interested in taking the time (if my husband was concerned, he would have been on top of it.)
There was one time I was going in a certain direction based on two contemporary speaker/ article, where my husband asked what I was looking up for, and then he shared something that helped me delete all that piece and start with a more positive approach. (Not women Maalos vs men, but rather only focus on the maalos of women.)
I also called a Rav once to check my hashkofa against a certain source that carried a different message.
And I know that the leaders will check with me if there’s anything they see that doesn’t seem right.
But that’s it. There’s alot of empowerment and trust within lubavitch in individuals. (That’s aside from the special attention the women as a community received from the Rebbe such as sichos just for women etc which is a different topic.)
CSParticipantAvira
“That also leads us to another question – if most women were incapable of gemara study in the times of chazal, when people were purer and holier, to the point where they would make it divrei havai…. today’s women are any better? We’ve only dropped in our madregos since then.”Context is everything- at least to me. Back in the day, women were not obligated to spend years in school, and everyone had enough work to do from the crack of dawn till late at night, many just to survive. For a woman to be taught back in the day, with her mind multi tasking to get her many responsibilities and lacking the concentration and interest needed, was not a good thing according to Rabbi Eliezer.
Fortunately todays world is completely different for men and women alike (The average life span was about 50 not too long ago) and the leisure time and focus we have
should be put to good use (in addition to the fact we go to school.) were fortunately tasting the times when “לא י׳הי׳ה עסק כל העולם כולו אלא לדעת את ה׳ בלבד”.CSParticipantAAQ,
“ If a lady shows interest in learning more in depth of mitzvos – that is what gemora is in the wider meaning – this should surely enhance her ability to look after her family yiddishkeit.”Bingo. Not sure why this wasn’t obvious to all
CSParticipant“The Rayatz could have been Mashiach, but since he wasn’t we need dor shevi’i to be Mashiach, and that just happens to be the LR who is the one who revealed the need for dor shevi’i.”
Bit more nuanced. Even after dor shvii commenced, The Rebbe held of the Frierdiker Rebbe as the real Rebbe, and the Rebbe as merely his spokesman (because others couldn’t hear directly from him since yud Shvat), and thus The Rebbe still referred to him as Moshiach of the generation for many years
CSParticipantAvira
“The vast majority of ehrliche women throughout history were completely uneducated in seforim. According to you, did they all indulge in goyishe things? Chas veshalom! A girl who grows up knowing what their purpose is and who is taught the dangers of goyishe culture will not get involved in such things, whether they’re chasidishe or litvishe.”
I think it’s easy to understand that we’re in a different world today which is why women need to learn to begin with. Back in the day, leisure ideas were completely different, treif wasn’t as accessible, and there was no Scop so girls received everything from home. I don’t need to repeat it all, I’m sure you can look up a bit of the history of Sara Schenirer.
But another point, sometimes we over glorify the past. I’ve read excerpts based on the Ramchal where Talmidei chachamim are advised to maintain distance from their wives so they don’t get pulled down…. Yes a lack of Torah learning can easily lead to superficial values.
CSParticipantArso,
“Btw do you remember (obviously, you can’t, but you can ask) when the LR had a “vote” at a farbrengen resulting in a psak that land not be returned to the Arabs? The point was that since לא-ל גומר עלי, min Hashomayim that psak would be followed, and land would not be returned. What happened to that prediction, or is that also to be swept under the already bulging carpet. (Please don’t start replying how we see it was a mistake to return land. That is not the point I am making here at all.)”
Unsurprisingly, I didn’t hear of it. There is many many sichos I have yet to learn. Would you know which sicha this is printed in? Or the date?
CSParticipantArso
“We all know – it has been discussed and never denied – that the tznius and mixing of genders in Crown Heights is far worse than in any other chareidi enclave. We all know that the number of children allowed unfettered use of internet and smartphones is far greater in Crown Heights that in any other chareidi enclave. Women putting the stress on learning gemoro and chassidus instead of looking after their children’s Yiddishkeit, is worse than counterproductive!”
Completely missing the point. Wanna reread or do I need to explain?
“Now if you are part of the minority who doesn’t allow the above in your home, well done (!), and Hashem should help you continue in your efforts. But we are not having a personal debate about you versus us. It is about what goes on in Lubavich versus the proper chareidi world.”
I think we’ve discussed this before. The other chareidim operate on chitzonius first basis. This is my info from my personal contacts. So if you have the perfect dress and keep the communal standards, your kids can go to the school.
In lubavitch we don’t work that way. We accept all kids in the schools and other institutions. Therefore, you will see people who are more modern dress that way so their outside matched their inside more or less.
Whereas in the other set up, if someone watches movies etc, they would likely still dress the same as everyone else.
This doesn’t mean lubavitch has less yiras shomayim overall, it just means we’re more transparent about where we’re at. It also means that since everyone can be honest with no repercussions, it’s likely easier for those who are more modern to mix and open up to the more Chassidish, whereas if you have to worry about external factors, that may inhibit those struggling to open up and get help.
It’s just a completely different community structure. Yes, you can enforce (with repercussions) the way someone dresses, but you cannot enforce yiras shomayim. Also, lubavitch embraces many different levels of Yiddishkeit and chassidishkeit, and we all mix with each other with an emphasis on ahavas Yisrael, so those baalei teshuva who have not gone the whole way, and the Ffb who has chilled, are equally as part of the community as the most Chassidish.
Whereas, as one Satmar woman told my mother (a bt) that she was happy to teach her homemaking skills once she was already frum, but if she had showed up to her house not frum/ tznius (as she did by Chabad), she would have closed her shutters and not opened the door.
So all in all, your comparisons are off.
CSParticipantAvira
““Nesius” is a term created יש מאין. The last time there was a Nasi was in the early amoraim.”
Incorrect. It’s in sefarim more recent than that. (Arso has looked into it- ask him).
Yes lubavitch is unique in applying it to their Rebbeim. I guess as descendants of Beis Dovid, we are unique. And the term connotes responsibility for all Jews, not just your community.
And yes we’re proud of it and it wouldn’t bother us if others had the same outlook- it would be great if every community looked out for the entire Klal Yisrael.
CSParticipantAvira
“But some girls simply don’t keep what they’re taught.”
This is true.
“And if you want to start getting into anecdotal incidents…. those with glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. Have you seen what became accepted in crown heights in recent years? Are you aware of how many girls – and boys – who can rattle off sichos but are engaged in kol minei nivalah?”
Coming from lubavitch, The ones who consistently are into learning and can rattle off the sichos in depth, are not generally the ones involved with that kind of stuff…
CSParticipantAvira,
“A woman’s ruchnius isn’t from learning. It’s from tznius, chesed and davening. Learning Torah accomplishes everything for a man; it does very little for women. Perhaps it can be an element of avodad Hashem, but there’s a reason why it is not a chiyuv – and we know that גדול המצווה ועושה, one who does what he is obligated to do is bigger than one who does something they’re not obligated to do. It’s a basic chazal; the enthusiasm women might have over learning could be the same kind of yatzer hora that makes men more interested in chessed than learning – it’s a yatzer hora.”
So I can agree with you that for me at least, learning Gemara is good as far as research, but doesn’t do as much for me in Avodas Hashem- I prefer practical Halacha.
But, and here’s the big but, at least 2 of the שש מצות תמידיות are knowing, fearing and loving Hashem. You can’t fulfill these mitzvos adequately without learning about Hashem. Without learning you will not have these emotions. So anything related is more than relevant to women, in fact it’s a yesod for Avodas Hashem.
And I’m lucky enough to have Chassidus which shines a light on all the other Torah I have learned. And that’s part of why (in addition to the Baal Shem Tovs mandate from Moshiach) we are so passionate to share with others. If we were so elitist, we’d keep it all to ourselves.
CSParticipantYb
“1] for the last 2 thousand years yidden NEVER looked for ‘candidates’ . Full Stop.
The few instances some looked and FELL for [bogus] candidates, it invariably resulted in DISASTER.
This whole idea of ‘looking for candidates’ is UNHEARD OF in normative yahadut , and is a newfangled notion, introduced by habad in the last 60 years AS A TOOL for the tolerance / acceptance of “the one Asher habad hafets biyekaro”.
This is CRYSTAL CLEAR to any unbiased observer.”This is an interesting point that it never came up in history. I know there was speculation about the third Lubavitcher Rebbe as well (same name also), but I’d like to look into this point more to see if it’s accurate. I don’t think Moshiach candidacy is necessarily unique to lubavitch Chassidus- I could be wrong- I don’t remember other names outright.
The premise I’ve always heard is that if the Rambam put the criteria for the Moshiach candidate in a Halacha sefer, then it’s meant for us to act on it.
As an aside, at the end of the day it’s how you view The Rebbes integrity as a person. If indeed he was a tzadik every observable moment, taught Torah etc, and led thousands back towards Hashem etc etc etc, then the logical thing at least to me, is to believe that when he did say these atypical statements, it was not for self promoting purposes (which anyone who came to The Rebbe felt that he highlighted their potential- not the opposite), rather this was his shlichus, and therefore his mandate to share.
Now, someone unfamiliar with The Rebbe may hear the Moshiach stuff and think in the opposite direction, especially if encouraged by their personal Torah leader. But let’s not kid ourselves that there is a one and only litvish leader, there were many with different extremes on how they related to the Rebbe. And the one often quoted did not only view the Rebbe negatively but started controversy with other Torah leaders too- let’s not pretend that this is something limited to the Rebbes personal integrity.
At the end of the day, lubavitch knows the Rebbe most intimately, and we make this judgment call of character to accept the Rebbe as our Rebbe, and therefore listen to what he says. It’s really that simple. A liar or imposter and a authentic Torah leader are worlds apart in character and teaching etc. And the thousands who are Lubavitcher Chassidim attest to the Rebbes integrity by their choice to be lubavitch.
CSParticipantYk
“CS ought to offer an unequivocal apology to the many tens of thousands of sincere women who are “not blessed to learn and see the [so called] deeper side of Torah” but nevertheless do not find ‘their pleasure and down time in non Jewish movies’ .”
Is it difficult to understand the words “Why she MAY”?
CSParticipantArso
“he did not fit any of the criteria, again, as I have pointed out again and again.”
Repeating it doesn’t make it a fact. We’ve personally gone through on this thread, yichus (I have the pages), yochuf (sources brought that it could be by influence / speech) and Melech (Rambams example).
Would you like to list more that don’t fit?
CSParticipantArso
“The LR was certainly nothing like that. He was always right and never stopped trying to convince others that his way was the only correct way. One illustrative example is his constant “nagging” other Rebbes and Roshei Yeshivos to institute the study of chassidus, even though that would have been a departure from their mesores.”
Complete misrepresentation. How about when the Rebbe personally checked up on the young Iranians saved from Iran (not Lubavitchers) and checked that they would have rice on Pesach even though it’s not our Minhag because it’s theirs?
The Zirkind’s and other families who became lubavitch from chasseedish were encouraged to keep their levush.
And of course, if he was so vain cvs , why would he care for every Jew? A vain person has enough of a challenge dealing with his own community.
CSParticipant“CS, chabad are the ones who made a contest out of yiddishkeit. Do you ever use the phrase “kiddush Lubavitch”?”
I could say the same thing to you. Can you list the top ten current leaders amongst the sefardim? The Rabbonim/ mashpiim in Ger? Bobov? Etc?
It does seem that the bigger a group gets, the harder it is to know everyone within the community/ group, and we know “outsiders” even less.
I think the term kiddush lubavitch is a defensive term which you could ask yourself why it needs to exist… Not hard to understand when you see how lubavitch is maligned by some…
In any case, Chassidus teaches that all of Klal Yisrael are one body, with its leaders being the brain Neshamos, etc.
Every part of Klal Yisrael is important to the whole. Seeing it in such a light, a contest is ridiculous.
The Rebbe once said, if Satmar wouldn’t be so anti Zionist, we would need to be more…
Similarly, the yishuvniks risk their lives for yishuv haaretz and thereby protect so many Jews.
Satmar are renowned for their community wide Chessed/ bikur cholim etc.
The Litvish highlight the supremacy of Torah learning
And the list goes on and on…
CSParticipantJust saying, I’m appreciating disclaimers generally, so the mods can clarify where the balance is, but again balance is key. I see my post was disclaimed as motzei Shem ra- at least it wasn’t edited in addition. To the best of my knowledge, motzei Shem ra means calling out others, whether by individual or community, falsely.
If you Reread my post, you’ll see I did none of the above. I contrasted what I gained from personal, internalized hashkofa from Torah shebaal peh, with what could theoretically, logically happen with someone who doesn’t. I didn’t call out individuals or communities by name, and so the falsehood factor doesn’t apply either.
try rereading your post
If this is so mamash motzei shem ra, as I may be ignorant, please do list where I can look up the Halachic source that teaches what I did wrong.
CSParticipantOne comment on the women’s learning discussion- which I was pleased to read- I know the effects learning Chassidus which includes all other parts of Torah- and especially knowing how to learn on my own, has done for me and my peers. Personally, it has allowed me to find pleasure in Elokus, to set my own learning curriculum based on where my current interests are in Avodas Hashem. And my whole home has been elevated by it. Torah learning is strongly encouraged in our home, and there is no time I’ve ever asked my husband not to go learn. We bH now have a daily Dvar Torah by supper time, and Shabbos is my heavenly learning time aside from family time.
All my peers who strive to be “Chassidish” (within Lubavitch), guard their homes from any non Jewish influence. There is no TV, non Jewish books (at least for entertainment purposes), and of course would never watch movies under any circumstances.
Contrast this with a woman who grows up in a very frum home and community, but wasn’t blessed to learn and see the deeper side of Torah, it’s not hard to understand why she may find her pleasure and down time in non Jewish movies, music, books etc even if she’s dressed tznius to the hilt, and the impact this has on her home…
disclaimer: mamash motzei shem rah
Someone mentioned that lubavitch Is in the minority of encouraging girls to learn Torah shebaal peh. I find that hard to believe. Please list the many communities, as you put it, who don’t teach their girls Chumash and Rashi ( Rashi is Torah shebaal peh)? I only know of one. Thanks.
CSParticipantArso
“And I have a question. If the Lubavicher rebbe was atzmus melubash beguf, and thus all-powerful, why wasn’t he able to avoid having a stroke, and avoid dying?”
This shows a complete misunderstanding of the sicha and Chassidus in general. For such types of people- don’t read one liners out of sichos meant to denigrate Chabad because it will lead you to at least the issur of choshed biksherim if not much more….
Like I said it’s not that complicated you just need the time and knowledge of learning. Start with Shaar haYichud BHoEmuna of Tanya…
CSParticipantArso
“So dor shevi’i is only something made up to suit the circumstances. Which is the type of ‘proof’ or argument that we have been disputing all along.”
I don’t see where you got that. What I meant was that if Nesius would’ve ended with the Frierdiker Rebbe, there would have been no dor shvii as the dor goes by the Rebbe. Since we needed another Rebbe, that equals dor shvii
CSParticipant*note to mod about my story: I’m not claiming this is an official mesora on how to not teach girls. Rather, this was part of this girls experience along with other things. It may have been the particular teachers coping mechanism to explain why she couldn’t learn further. (She wasn’t litvish in case you were wondering.)
And to whoever was outraged that Chabad saved the day yet again: bH, we did in that case and many other cases. No reason to be intimidated if you have the same approach of helping any Jew. It’s not a contest.
When the war started someone posted- were all in the army- depends which brigade.
CSParticipantGutte voch from my locality.
Yb
“Or , Phrased in another way – If you, CS, would be put in a ‘time machine’ , transported to the 1990 – 1994 era , and would be commenting on these pages , would you ‘explain’ those hazal like the shitah of ‘then habad’ or like you do now ?”I have no idea. In my experience a) The women weren’t as involved in the combative politics and b) the whole era is a sensitive topic. Therefore I haven’t gotten clear info yet from the Chabad side on this but I’ll keep it in mind. Just to make sure I have you right, you say the reason others didn’t see The Rebbe as a candidate for Moshiach (obviously among the ones who didn’t) had nothing to do with the alive or dead debate? So what was it then? Just so I have you clear.
Secondly, of course there may be personal bias involved when learning- personally I question anything that doesn’t add up to me as things come up in learning. This is also why it’s so important to have the guidance of a mashpia and Rav so you don’t just go down a self deluded lane.
CSParticipantRegarding women’s learning, there’s only one group that I know of today in the frum world that completely still holds by not teaching females Torah shebaal peh. And from that group, I personally taught a girl my age Chassidus, because she was a smart girl and wasn’t satisfied with being told that if she asks questions she might die because in Heaven they have all the answers etc.
*note: this is not an actual response taught to girls per any hashkofo
Her smart parents realized it’s better to send her to lubavitch than lose her to Yiddishkeit. BH she is doing very well today.
CSParticipantAaq
Arso”AlwaysAsk, I disagree. If there are 2-3 talmidei chachomim who recognize someone as a t”ch, but many others consider him close to an apikorus, someone who misleads, or a meshuggene, the 2-3 are not enough. Especially when the detractors are recognized gedolei olam.”
Just for some truth, it’s much likely the other way around. Many many many respected gedolim held of the Rebbe. I think there’s even a sefer on it now, written by a past chasseedish chossid who became lubavitch, and did the research, so we don’t have to listen to lies like this.
CSParticipantArso,
“And of course I won’t ask you for a source in a sicha because I don’t believe what it says there.”
Isn’t it a tad ridiculous to expect me to trust you’re know what you know, and completely disregard an open printed statement of the Rebbe when you’re talking about what the Rebbe said??
“Finally, if the LR did indeed say taht women should learn gemoro even when it is not directly relevant to their performing mitzvos in which they are obligated, isn’t that going against explicit halacha?”
No, The same way every bais Yaakov teaches mefarshim on the Chumash and Navi today (all Torah shebaal peh- not directly related to mitzvos bichlal.) Same rationale- times have changed. if women ARE being educated to think critically, and ARE receiving an advanced secular education, not seeing the depth within Torah= dangerous set up hashkafically.
CSParticipantArso
It’s been some time since I looked up that Gemara. I had remembered the Rashi as only being two words, and now I see you did quote it correctly. My bad. So Rashi himself brings two ways of interpreting the reference to Rebbi and Daniel- 1 kgon, 2- interestingly he says HAINU- this is Rabeinu hakadosh if alive (then I guess) and then repeats Kgon when speaking of Daniel
CSParticipantArso
“One other thing that came to me, if the LR at any stage claimed his father-in-law was Mashiach, how does that fit in with the LR being the Mashiach because he is dor shevi’i?”
Dor Shvii only happened because as the Rebbetzin told the Rebbe- “if you don’t accept the nesius, all my fathers work will go to waste…”
The Rebbe made it clear in his opening maamar that he’s there to assist the Chassidim, but it has to be their own work. (Interesting how we’re in the same position today, yet the Chassidim now do have the power to continue… methinks this suggests a deeper layer of meaning.)
In other words, dor hashvii was really for the sake of the Chassidim, that Chabad shouldn’t disintegrate, but mitzad HaRebbe, all the brachos and direction he gave was from his father in law, which was why he visited the Ohel so often.
CSParticipant“In the latest edition of Mishpacha it says that Rabi David Abuchatzira had a 50 minute private meeting with the Argentinian president, and very soon afterwards the hostages were freed.”
I’ve actually heard this Mekubal mentioned a few times recently (also that he met Moshiach.) I love hearing about actual Tzaddikim in our time. I wish there was a way to find out more about him. Of course, I’ve heard much about the Baba Sali as well and have nothing but the greatest respect.
CSParticipantYb
“It was very simply – Based on the NORMATIVE JEWISH BELIEF that mashiach , ONCE HE STARTED could not die [in any shape or form] , otherwise he would be proven as Mashiach Sheker.
.
You are just repeating PROPAGANDA .
And blindly so.”I find this difficult, as I myself learned in the sichos, The Rebbes said many many times that his father in law should take us out of golus. And at least in one place, he specified that he could have techias hameisim with the earlier wave of Tzaddikim etc as moshiach.
I find it hard to reconcile that the Chassidim of the time didn’t know this…
I know I should really ask someone from the older generation, but until then, would you have a source? It’s not anywhere in the sichos. And Rabbanim and mashpiim could be wrong. We’ve corrected them before (asa community) when that was the case
CSParticipant“ What exactly do you mean by “So that’s it”? Do you mean that we can’t argue with it because you asked a ‘respected’ L Rav? If that’s what you mean, then I want to point out that if the Rav in question said what you claim he said, I, and I am sure many others on this thread, do not respect him at all.
And if by “So that’s it” you mean that you feel satisfied in maintaining your view, then it is simply another example of choosing what to believe in to suit yourself. Remember the moshol about shooting the arrows and then drawing the target?”
As far as I understand, if you aren’t sure about a question of Halacha or hashkafa, you ask your Rav. That’s what I did so that’s it for me. Don’t get how you see this to be drawing around arrows- hopefully this is normative frum behavior for you.
Because yes, Gemara, rashi, Ramban, sdei chemed are all Torah sources but not the only way of Halacha lmaase. I’m sure you’ve heard of shivim panim laTorah.
Happens to be this specific Rav I asked is so busy and usually quite curt- I felt bad to ask his sources, nor do I need to as there’s other learned people I’m in touch with.
And no, this isn’t the only type of Rav in Lubavitch. I’m very lucky to have found my main Rav who is very patient and we do go back and forth on hashkofa
CSParticipantJust a thought: we were singing the niggun Yifrach byomov tzaddik… At the shabbos table, And my husband pointed out that it mentions that Moshiach will rule from the Sea… And from the River.
Something tells me that Hamas is Amalek. They’re not even real Yishmealim genetically for the most part. Besides for our sources, I saw a Saudi guy blasting them on video as the riffraff of nations
CSParticipant@HaLeivi- when I say most Lubavitcher shuls, I should correct it to- many. I have no idea the actual ratio.
CSParticipantHaLeivi
“ I do not believe that Lubavitch has any special emphasis on Davening. I’ve Davenned in Lubavitcher Minyanim and it sounds like any Litvisher davening.”
Yes, this is something very new. The Rebbes minyan didn’t take very long. Avodas HaTefillah is still emphasized in yeshivos- some probably more than others. But something common in Chabad of the Rebbes generation, we say a page of perek 41 of Tanya before davening to take some time to think about Hashem and start off on the right foot.
The Rebbe very much emphasized helping another yid- comparing it to having the opportunity to put out a fire (assimilation.) So maybe that’s the reason for the shorter davening. However, The Rebbe very much emphasized that one can only give to others what what has within oneself- so we do need to take time for our personal Avodas Hashem of davening and learning .
CSParticipantHaLeivi
“ What are the practical ramifications of deciding that a certain person is destined to become Moshiach?
Does it boil down to whether or not to say Yechi?”
Not really. Most Lubavitcher shuls do not allow public recitals of yechi. It’s really just an inyan of Emuna and feeling the imminence of Geula by living with a geula mindset and seeing signs of it in the world etc
CSParticipantArso- regarding women learning Gemara. I’ve learned inside the Rebbes sichos to women myself (this one quoted in beginning of the black sefer hamitzvos divided by shiur) the opposite. So I’ll take that over your unnamed source.
CSParticipantArso- not that I doubt it- he actually just went to the trouble of photographing about 6 pages of scholarly research about the Rebbes yichus- but that I know it’s not about answers with you. So I’m glad that it is addressed in that sefer, and maybe some other time I’ll take it further.
Yes I quoted the Gemara, and yes we were discussing. But you brought sources on the Rashi- (the Rashi itself merely lists the two kgons- shades of/ examples, and you’re deciding to read it like the interpretation that it means it can only be these two. Which I don’t have to do that. And even so, taking it further – it would seem even according to that- that that only applies to that very generation. So yes, there’s the Ramban, and yes there’s the explicit Gemara, The sdei chemed, abarbanel etc etc. And the Rebbe about his father in law which didn’t seem to be any issue before Gimmel Tammuz because I probably would have heard of it.
Yes the 2 hostages families took on hachlotos, when urged to by shluchim. Guess where that inspiration came from?
And yes I think it is horrible to make a ceasefire- there could have been another way for them to be released as just happened. Fact is though- there has never been such a “good” ceasefire and terrorist exchange rate ever- feel free to correct me. I guess my point with this was that the Rebbes influence is definitely alive and well today, as will continue to be until we finish this golus forever.
CSParticipantYb- post b
*בחיצוניות רק למראה עינים*
דער גאנצער ענין קומט נאר צוליב דעם וואס דער אויבערשטער בחסדו הגדול האט געוואלט ברענגען אידן צו אן עלי’ הכי גדולה )העכער ווי מצבם מצ”ע(, דעריבער איז הכי גדולה “עלילה נתלה בו” און עס ווערט א ירידה לפי שעה )ע”ד מש”נ “ברגע קטן עזבתיך”( ובחיצוניות )נאר למראית עינים(, בכדי ברענגען די עלי’ שלא בערך, און ניט נאר אן עלי’ לרגע קטן )כנגד “רגע קטן עזבתיך”(, נאר אן עלי’ נצחית שאין אחרי’ הפסק כלל. ווי עס וועט זיין בגאולה האמיתית והשלימה – וואס קומט דורך דער ירידה גדולה אין גלות – א
(ש”פ כי תשא ה’תשנ”ב, ספר השיחות ח”ב עמ’431)
גאולה נצחית שאין אחרי’ גלות.This first source was said shortly before The Rebbes stroke.
*נסיון דור הגאולה*
הרבי פעם אמר לאחד ביחידות: “לפני הגאולה האמיתית והשלמה יחזור על עצמו פעם נוספת אותו ‘נסיון’ שערך אליהו הנביא בהר הכרמל )מלכים א, פי”ח( כאשר כל ישראל נתאספו יחדיו, ואליהו גער בהם: “עד מתי אתם פוסחים על שתי הסעיפים? אם ה’ האלקים
לכו אחריו, ואם )ח”ו( הבעל – לכו אחריו.
לאחו מכן נערך ה”מבחן”: “ויתנו לנו שנים פרים, ויבחרו להם הפר האחד, וינתחוהו, וישימו על העצים, ואש לא ישימו, ואני אעשה את הפר האחד, ונתתי על העצים, ואש לא אשים. וקראתם בשם אלקיכם, ואני אקרא בשם ה׳. והיה האלקים אשר יענה באש הוא האלקים”, ולבסוף, למרות כל תחבולות נביאי הבעל, לא ירדה להם האש, ואילו לצד הקדושה ירדה אש מן השמים “ותאכל את העולה, ואת העצים ואת האבנים ואת העפר, ואת המים אשר בתעלה לחכה וירא כל העם, ויפלו על פניהם ויאמרו: ה׳ הוא האלקים! ה׳ הוא
האלקים!
לקראת הגאולה, אמר הרבי, יחזור על עצמו שוב אותו סיפור – אך בהבדל אחד: האש תרד דוקא לצידם של נביאי הבעל, לצד אלו שטענו כלפי הנביא כי הוא “עוכר ישראל” כמסופר שם, ולא לצד הקדושה…
וזה יהיה ה”מבחן” והנסיון האחרון של בני ישראל, שלמרות זאת הם לא יתבלבלו ולא ילכו ח”ו אחרי “הבעל”, אלא יכריזו יחדיו, מתוך אמונה איתנה ובטחון גמור: “ה’ הוא האלקים, ה’ הוא האלקים…”(‘והוא יגאלנו’ עמ’ 109)
CSParticipantGutte voch from my locality! I hope you’ll forgive my untimely responses, as this convo keeps on going, I’ve decided to drop in more occasionally…
Hope I don’t miss out anyone. Starting with YB, as I said I was born after, but just by seeing Lubavitch today, I think you have your answer. How many Lubavitchers on this very site have clutched their head in their hands, and called me an “embarrassment” etc. because I’m openly sharing what I’ve learned from the Rebbes sichos, even though Chas Veshalom they would never call the Rebbe this way, and even call me a hater for suggesting so… how many have denied everything to do with the Rebbe being Moshiach, even in publications, when it’s literally in the print of the sichos?
I think the answer is quite simple. The Rebbe was so down to earth, and “normal”. Just look at his shluchim. Not every shliach is the top 10% of Lubavitch, yet the Rebbe empowered them to share what they have. Yet, together with the normalcy, the Rebbe was definitely revolutionary. And it seems some people have a hard time living with both, so you have this kind of stuff going on…
And yea, Chassidim will go and find their own proofs to support what the Rebbe said. I think the most telling thing is that in at least one of the Rebbes sichos that I am aware of, he said the Frierdiker Rebbe could still be Moshiach, because he could have techias hameisim with the first wave. So this actually isn’t something new.
As to why it was “impossible” to end up this way- a) partly because there are sources also from the Rebbe about this generation going straight into chaim nitzchiim- So that does pose a seeming contradiction to Gimmel Tammuz- which is why the entire lubavitch refer to Gimmel Tammuz as such, and also why very few will say zia.
But the main answer is that they were having bitachon that things wouldn’t end up this way.
On that note: I’ll add in the next post a part b, very telling.
CSParticipantYb
“n one post you claimed you were not aware of official Habad Policy before the Histalkus / Disappearance of 1994.
In a subsequent post you claimed , you are well aware of it .”Depends what aspect you’re talking about, and if I’ve heard something once or twice or looked into something in depth.
Be it as it may , the following question is very pertinent –
“When will we get an unreserved acknowledgement that Official Habad made two major U-Turns in the last 60 – 70 years ?
Or possibly , alternatively rephrased as “one Major U-Turn and one Great Deception” ?”What I know is (again I was born after) that the Rebbe started off the Nesius by saying that we are the seventh generation who’s job is to bring the Shechina back down to earth (just like Moshe- seventh from Avraham). And we’re not better than other generations- it’s just our mission as the lucky 7 (kol shviin chavivin.) the Rebbe will help us but he will not do the work for us.
There was always an emphasis on bringing Moshiach. This was nothing new- the Frierdiker Rebbe had a campaign around the Holocaust time- lalter liteshuva lalter lGeula.
Seeing the Rebbe as Moshiach of the generation is also nothing new. At least the third Lubavitcher Rebbe was held this way, and possibly many others. The Rebbe also referenced the Frierdiker Rebbe as Moshiach during the Rebbe’s nesius. (Another reason why Moshiach min hameisim is moot- if the Rebbe could say the Frierdiker Rebbe could have techias hameisim and come back with the first wave, what’s the issue?)
As far as the Rebbe himself being called Moshiach- at first it was probably unheard of as the Rebbe was completely batul to his father in law. In time, with whatever communications the Rebbe received, he slowly began to reveal it to those closest to him, hence the change of position, but still didn’t feel this was suitable for the world at large. Later on that changed somewhat too. So this isn’ta series of flip flops rather a one way process.
There is more to be said about how Gimmel Tammuz affected Chabad, and I’ll save that for my next time.
“But , Please – please , Not by saying that the non habad world ALSO made a u- turn by initially [pre 94] opposing habad ‘candidacy’ for M , based on the premise that M comes from the dead . and somehow only now [after 94] insisting M only comes from the living.
That’s a factual non starter …”To be honest, I have heard this more than once, and it probably has some basis- if you could give background from your end would be nice. I never looked into it yet
CSParticipant“And I know for a fact that what the Lubavicher rebbe advocated was that they learn only gemoro that is directly relevant to halochos that apply to women, not other stuff. (Note: I, and I’m sure many others on this thread, are against even that.)”
Source for your fact?
CSParticipantJust popping in. Glad to see the positive conversation regarding the Baal Shem Tov.
Will respond to a few now (hopefully in order) and next at my next opportunity iyH.
Avira- thanks for the exact translation of כגון
Arso: I meant I found the name of a sefer that addresses the Ramban mentioned, but I’m going to give my source in this info a break so I’m not pressing it for now. In any case, aside from the Gemara, there’s the abarbanel and Sdei Chemed who refer to moshiach min hameisim positivelys well. Rashi is only one mefaresh on the Gemara and not Halacha lmaase. And then you’re arguing how to interpret the Rashi- 2 steps removed.Recently I called a Rav regarding a mefaresh on the Gemara that didn’t seem to fit with the theme I was writing on (it seemed unhealthy in attitude) and I wanted to understand how it fit in or if I was wrong in my approach. He assured me my approach was correct, and regarding the mefaresh- we don’t hold like that.
The bottom line is that I asked a respected Lubavitcher Rav about the topic- he told me you can’t hold according to the Rambam bchezkas Moshiach, but you’re on solid Torah ground to believe the Rebbe is Moshiach regardless. So that’s it.
Later I found out that there are others who disagree and are still garnering signatures from outside of lubavitch on the topic today. They bring the sources, the Rabbonim study them and many/ some do agree and sign.
Regarding Argentina-no obviously a goy won’t be moshiach- point was that he heralds good news in line with geula (may it only continue!)
Regarding more “typical” Rebbe brachos with these latest hostages, the article is up on VIN the day they were released.
May I also add that the first (unprecedented) wave of hostages were released shortly after members of many hostages families flew from Israel (!) to NY and went to the Ohel.
CSParticipantYB I do know about the major flip flop because I grew up in the wake of it. I don’t think you understand the nuance within Chabads position which are all based on the Rebbes sichos and sources: We hold that the best way is when the Nassi of the current dor who merits geula, is the final Moshiach- as his generation was the one who earned it. This is not the same as the classic Moshiach min hameisim, and obviously- clearly alive physically would be the most straightforward, ie be option a. Nobody was looking for an option b, pre Gimmel Tammuz, although the Rebbe alluded to it.
CSParticipantDaMoshe I’m not going to respond at length as I think people here are bH sufficiently educated on chassidus in general, but just to make you aware, besides Achiya HaShiloni, the Baal Shem Tovs mentor was R Adam Baal Shem, who was preceded by R Yoel baal shem, whose teacher was R Eliyahu baal shem who was of the mekubali
and had a Yeshiva in Worms. The ways of These Baal Shem were kept secret from the general population, except for their own students, and that’s why maybe you only heard of the Baal Shem Tov who was forced to reveal himself to the world at large on his 36th birthdayCSParticipantArso: thanks for quoting it, although I seem to remember the Rashi as being quite short. In either case, it still says dugmaso- which is the same idea- an example. In that generation, the example of Moshiach min hachaim was Rebbi and min hameisim- Daniel. I don’t understand why you understand that Rebbi was only that generation but not subsequently, yet you don’t apply the same logic to Daniel. Just to flesh it out
CSParticipantArso btw The Rebbe wanted the Lubavitchers girls high schools to learn Gemara. Although I only know of one that does. I don’t have a kevius in Gemara, as there’s plenty else for me to learn that’s more relevant to my mitzvos (including Chassidus) but I enjoy looking the many footnotes in the sichos/ maamarim etc referencing Gemara, and more often than not, I can bH translate a quote from Gemara when it does appear in a sicha. So I learn alot more Gemara on a regular basis than, say, Zohar. Zohar I don’t usually look up, unless I’m checking an article to make sure it’s an accurate quote. But I wouldn’t gain more clarity of Zohar by seeing the context. All the Zohar. Etz Chaim etc I know, is directly as is explained in Chassidus
CSParticipantWith regards to the Ramban, I’m not aware of the name of a sefer that addresses it directly, but that’s it for now. I can look into it more thoroughly if you’d like. I just thought to start with the Gemara because that obviously predates the Ramban.
CSParticipant*Now aware
CSParticipantJust for a light note, I saw a video today (actually one of two connected) how the President of Argentina davened by the kosel from the depths of his heart, and then two Argentinian hostages were rescued that night.
Mr Jeremy Gimpel found a fascinating connection:
Of the 4 names of the one who will herald the geula- the last send the most puzzling. The Gemara says it’ll be chivra dbei Rebbi- the white one (which I assume rashi says means a leper) of the house of Rebbi.
So the Argentinian guys name is Chivra- or something similar, and he belongs to Beis Rebbi, as he is an avid student of The Rebbe 😀 (in fact his first trip abroad after winning the elections was to the ohel)
May the miraculous events of today only get stronger and stronger, and may it indeed herald the geula, with only revealed good for Klal Yisrael from now on!
CSParticipantMod thanks for explaining. I’m still not clear on what you meant. Are you saying that what I wrote (based on many posters here who hail from the litvish world) is false? That people don’t turn their noses up at Chabad (when that’s what I’m seeing repeatedly here)? No need to reply if you’re exasperated, I’m just confused as what you find to be motzei shem ra.
Arso, quoting the rashi from memory, feel free to check up, it doesn’t זה, it says, כגון which to the best of my knowledge means For example:. For example doesn’t mean the Gemara is only referring to this person, it means someone like this person. And it uses the same word כגון, to the best of my recollection, both for the dead and for the live. Obviously, we cannot limit the live to Rebbi, and similarly the dead.
Hope that is clear
CSParticipantRegarding flip flopping two ways, interesting. I’ve only gotten vague info on the pre Gimmel Tammuz era on how the “outside” world reacted and why, haven’t looked into it much, and wasn’t around then
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