CS

Arso,

“ There are only two types of nevi’im. 1. The navi to whom all the laws of a navi apply, including, as yb mentioned, someone being chayav misa bidei Shamayim if he doesn’t obey the navi, and 2. A navi sheker.

You can’t have “half-a-Navi” which is stronger than ruach hakodesh but not quite the full nevuah.”

Yes I’m not saying the Rebbe was a half Navi, what I’m saying is, if I proclaim I have Nevuah, and say it was true, you wouldn’t be chayav misa for doubting me- it would need some sort of Rabbinic seal of approval. Which the Rebbe never sought, probably for this very reason- so it would stay motivational and not threat heavy

Arso,

“But you could have just let the thread stay dead.”

I think this is a misunderstanding. I’m not at all embarrassed of anything The Rebbe said or taught, and my personal views. But, like many Lubavitchers, I’m not looking to start a conversation on the Rebbe as Moshiach because: a) maybe I joined a thread for a different topic and am interested in hearing from others on that one, and most importantly b) there are a number of perquisites I would want a person to have before getting into this topic, which lubavitch itself hardly discusses openly:

1) keeping Torah and mitzvos and knowing how. 2) having a passion and (also through) education about the time period of Geula in general 3) having a passion for Moshiach as a person- only then would this become relevant.

Since this is even less common outside lubavitch than within lubavitch (2 and 3), The number of times I’ve discussed it in person with non Lubavitchers I think is 0.

But if you’re (collectively) starting the conversation, even sarcastically, by all means- we have what to talk about.

Arso,

“I denigrated the BTs?! I don’t remember doing that! I keep saying that it’s the kids of shluchim, and a number of shluchim themselves, who I am complaining.”

I’m glad you didn’t mean anything against bts. You’ve written several posts implying that what you see as Chabads problems today, are due to bts, so I wanted to clarify this is really not the case.

“I have close relatives who run a Chabad house – official shluchim, not mushrooms (yankel berel et al, have you heard that term?) – and who regulary post pictures of what goes on in their institution. Forget the (not-yet-)BTs who are there and are doing what they are doing, although in my humble opinion there’s no need to post pictures of that, I’m talking about the shluchim themselves. Shomu Shamayim! Because of tznius issues I won’t elaborate!”

Interesting. Why did your relatives become lubavitch? I’m closely acquainted with a family who helps and helped many people learn Chassidus, and become lubavitch (doesn’t need to be both, there are many that just do the former), and all the ones I know keep the highest standards for themselves and bH have beautiful families. They were looking for something more when they came to lubavitch, not less, and we’ve spoken about it in many conversations. So I’m just curious what your relatives story is: did they go off and come back through lubavitch? Or what?

About your insinuation of shluchim- there are thousands of shluchim, I’d say most uphold the highest standards as befits what they do, some started off as less, and give their communities what they have. One shlucha spoke to us in high school and shared how she always struggled with tznius, and ultimately turned around when her college students on campus respectfully asked why she wasn’t dressed the part of the Rebbetzin she was to them. She got the message and dresses completely tznius today bH. Shluchim were never sent as only the top 10% of lubavitch, many freilach kids who gave their teachers a hard time went on shlichus. Of course you can only give what you have, but I’d say shlichus is a win win in these cases because your on a path that encourages growth, and you’re anyway going to have what to share. When I occasionally do see shluchim who aren’t up to par with standards, I’m happy for them that they still chose shlichus. Imagine where they’d be if they weren’t…

Arso,

“Shaul Hamelech and Kimchis were called tznuim because they went over and above what was required lehalacha.”

They were called tznuim because they were tznius when only Hashem was around…

Cont’

This approach also enables us to help others much more because we’re not in the mode of retreating. The maamar of the Alter Rebbe on שחורה אני ונאוה is very illuminating in this regard. Of course we may stay more pristine by cutting ourselves off from the world as much as possible, but so would our Neshama by staying up above. The beauty is the willingness to descend and become blackened to an extent, and in the end, with the right intentions, we end up reaching much farther than we would have, מאיר עיני שניהם ה׳.

There’s also the horaah from the Halacha regarding salting chickens- they can be placed atop another because they’re all giving out and won’t take in blood. So too with us- if we’re busy trying to influence others positively, we won’t be in danger of being influenced negatively.

I’ll continue in a part 2.

Part2:
Of course there’s bechira chofshis- the Rebbe sent out shluchim with the promise that their children’s chinuch will be on his shoulders. One shlucha wasn’t happy with how her son turned out and wrote an angry letter to the Rebbe. The response was that the Rebbe never asked her to put such magazines in her bathrooms…

(But yes generally, shluchim do have a special brocha with their children.)

So in summary: our approach takes exposure as a matter of course (more limited when children but when necessary for hafatza etc…) but in the way of being mashpia, and also enables everyone to be honest with themselves and to connect to their role models openly.

Other paths that segregate seem to have the advantage of less exposure =less challenges = better results.

Ultimately, the only time we saw a fair comparison was by Soviet Russia, where lubavitch, although affected, “won” by far (unfortunately.)

Arso,

“ Another anecdotal proof that shows that Lubavichers are far better than others! Well done! (And don’t worry about the fact that even if the story is true it’s the exception to the rule. Who cares? As long as we can continue claiming that the tznius in Crown Heights is of the highest standard.)”

Context please! This was in response to your claim that Chabad willingly lowers standards because of baalei teshuva. I brought this to show we aren’t afraid to uphold the highest standards, even in comparison to others, where deemed appropriate. I don’t know about you but when I lived in and visit Crown heights I see plenty of women and girls dressed fully tznius, and promoting initiatives to promote tznius. Yea there are people who don’t, but it’s definitely not bshita

Yb,

“ To the best of my limited knowledge, there is no need for a Sanhedrin or any other big body of rabbis to pasken that
1] going against a navi is mitah biyedei shamayim.
2] that this person is a navi if he indeed is a navi.

So , habads claim that their leader is a navi.
No , have to correct myself here – habads leaders claim that habads leader is a navi , does not need sanhedrin nor any other body to pasken it is so.

If it is true , and it obviously is, according to habad, the obligation to listen takes effect immediately.
On all of us.
Immediately.

So the question is now,
Are [new]habad imposing their navi on all the rest of us ????”

Like I said I never saw the navi thing used in this way. More like the Rebbe is saying it as Nevuah/ stronger than regular ruach hakodesh- so it’s really real and happening.

I do think the punishment aspect of navi which you are bringing up would only apply if the Rebbe was certified/ pronounced as a navi by others- whether in Beis din or whatever the protocol is. I am admittedly ignorant in the exact Halachos defining this. The idea of navi with regards to the Rebbe I have only seen working in a positive sense.

Yb,

“ Was there no group of people thirsting for geula like you, in the whole 1900 plus years since the Hurban ?

Would you feel comfortable to answer ‘yes’ to the above question ?”

I cannot put myself in the mindset of our people t throughout our entire golus. Maybe there was speculation (as there was by the third Chabad Rebbe) but nothing came of it, and it died out.

Other factors: for much of our history, world Jewry was separated. Ashkenazim hardly knew of the Rambam, and Sephardim hardly knew of Rashi. Which would make speculation unlikely.

Also, for much of our history, there wasn’t much time for any speculation when we were just busy with literal survival.

All I can do is explain the mindset of today’s Chabad…

Arso,

“ I didn’t deny that Lubavich had the major share of underground limud Torah in Russia. Rather, I was arguing that they weren’t the only ones.”

Thanks for clarifying. For the sake of honesty and closure as well as my own curiosity, please do find me the numbers, names etc or even groups in cities of the individuals you are referring to. I’d love to fact check it with the Zaltzmans who were there learning underground at the time.

Arso,

“ Where is CS? I can think of a few options:

1. Not feeling well c”v or some other problem not giving her the time to reply.
2. Looking for a way out of admitting that Habadpedia falsified and misinterpreted quotes to push their own agenda.
3. Avoiding the issue because she knows that Habadpedia is lying, and (being a Lubavicher) she can’t admit that a quasi-official Lubavich website would lie.
4. Being totally stunned into realizing that she has been brainwashed all these years into believing anything that has been quoted.

I certainly hope it’s not no. 1, and I would really like it to be no. 4, but I doubt it. At any rate, I would really like to hear what she has to say about it.”

This is funny, I thought you’d appreciate the break after I went completely overboard with my time last motzei shabbos as you said.

Yb,

“ What happens when there is no satisfactory answer ?
Should we accept an unsatisfactory answer, just out of fear not to be labeled ‘hater’ ?
Or do we have the right to insist on proper answers ?”

No keep asking, sincere people can handle it. The problem is only when the only association one has with any particular group is listing problems they have, and when addressed, just go to the next. Anti semitism works the same way, no?

Arso,

“ So here is where you have been fooled:
1. The sefer Kehillas Yaakov is talking specifically and only about Rebbi Yehudah Hanossi. There were nesi’im in E”Y both before and after Rebbi Yehudah Hanassi, and he is NOT even referring to any of them.
2. The part of the footnote from Habadpedia that continues about nishmoso kelulah, has nothing to do with the sefer Kehillas Yaakov, and it is in fact from Iggeres Hakodesh (of the Baal Hatanya) in relation to Yaakov Avinu. Not in relation to anybody else since! (In Iggeres Hakodesh he uses that terminology first in relation to Adam Harishon, and he then says it applies as well to Yaakov Avinu, but it stops there.)”

Thanks for looking it up. I agree with you that if that is what the sefer says it is misleading in this context. I got it from a short page on the various sources on nossi hador, so although it fits into the topic, it doesn’t fit into the context of this discussion.

Arso,

“Which mekubalim?”

Apparently (yes this is in zichronos- you’re welcome to do your own research as desired) after shabsai Tzvi, there was a split among yidden with some forbidding the study of Kabbala entirely (and they later opposed Chassidus). The ones who did encourage the study of Kabbala (as appropriate), were the ones who also generally encouraged women’s learning. It’s also well known that the Maharal gave his fiancé Pearl a learning program, and she later said she never learned less than 5 hours a day.

So this all predates Sara schenirer, but in any case, yes, most communities now encourage the girls learning of Torah shebaal peh (including rashi etc), The question is only to what extent.

And what I said about Chassidus still holds even workout that. The same way women always needed to learn halacha lmaase, ahavas Hashem and yiras Hashem, and yedias Hashem are actual mitzvos that women are mechuyav in.

Arso,

I must protest your general denigration of an entire demographic of baalei teshuva. Baalei teshuva turn their entire lives over for Hashem, sometimes unfortunately against their families will, and have a burning sincerity that guides all they do. As a demographic, they are much more sincere and driven than the ffb population. Many ffb continue whatever they grew up with, at their comfort level, whereas baalei teshuva are willing to go as far as they can to get closer to Hashem.

Once someone asked the Rebbe of the advisability of admitting their children to our schools, and the Rebbe stopped him with the clear message that these are my children.

The challenge is that many times they are lacking the support they need to fully integrate into the regular frum standards etc. This is mainly due to the impossibility of the bt schools/ campus shluchim etc keeping up with each alumnus when there are kah so many. So once they’ve learned the basics and left home/ school, they’re pretty much on their own, and it’s up to each one to find their own support which can be challenging when you don’t have family connections and are not familiar with the frum world. Some are a bit clueless as to why certain social norms out standards matter, as there’s only so much they can learn in the time they have in school, and they focus on shabbos/ Kashrus, Chassidus (which continues the flame for the commitment burning) etc.

Another challenge is that due to their background, it is often hard for bt to reach the level of refinement that ffb hopefully grew up with.

I’ve heard a lubavitch mashpia speak on this, encouraging bts to move back to where they started off so they can continue their growth there under the shluchim they started off with.

But there are many baalei teshuva who do fully integrate, and as a demographic, they contribute so much with bringing Yiddishkeit with their fire and sincerity to places not so accessible for ffb Chabad, whether it’s on shlichus (different when you’ve grown up not frum and can fully relate), business, and so many creative forms of business, etc etc.

There are few ffb who can match baalei teshuva in their sincerity and drive- only those who have similarly worked on themselves in their Avodas Hashem to this degree.

They add so much to our community, and whereas a lack of something in a bt is usually due to ignorance, or lack of support, ffb children can go the same way without that excuse.

Arso,

“ I think the reason is twofold:
1. We can’t be too frum because of the baalei teshuvah,
2. We don’t want to look as extreme as other chassidim.”

This is not true. We start tznius at 3 for example, and a Lubavitcher was trying to shop for her daughter in boro park and was surprised at the lack of selection for her three year old. When she asked the shop lady, she was told, “we’re not lubavitch.” We take pride in upholding the top standards in yiddishkeit and valuing hiddur Mitzvah. But of course, everyone is at their own place in this journey- there are many who are careful and enjoy keeping up as much as they can and know, and others who are holding at a different place, but still cherish the mitzvos / standards they do etc.

We don’t take down our mechitzas at Chabad houses for fear of what the community say, and we don’t lower our personal standards for fear of others.

“ The problem is that there are many fully-fledged Lubavichers, including shluchim and their families, who have downfalls in these areas. I can overlook what the baalei teshuvah do, but not shluchim and their kids, and there are many who have, shall we say, ‘strayed’ in some important areas.

In general, it’s the fully-fledged that I am referring to and disappointed in

I think every community and individual have their areas that can use strengthening, and this is not unique to lubavitch. I have been to both kinds of homes. I haven’t seen bochurim/ girls at the same table, but have seen marriageable age at the same table separated by married couples. Could be these families are operating in guidance I don’t know about. I try to focus on my own decisions:)

Arso,

“ Not coming from Russian stock I can’t argue with that, but from what I’ve heard Karlin and Litvishe will indeed argue.”

There’s really nothing to argue about. Denying this while the adults who learned/ taught underground is tantamount to Holocaust denial while there’s still survivors. Unless there’s something I don’t know but this is history. If you have names of networks- the people involved, which chasidus they belonged to, and which places they operated, please do post. I know of one non lubavitch teacher who taught within the Lubavitcher network.

Rabbi yoseph Zaltzman of Toronto once went to a wedding where he was told that there was a lady from Russia who knew of others operating there. He went to her and asked her details, she told him it was the Zekainim of the city. He asked who these zekainim were and she had to admit they were lubavitch but the others in her community preferred when she called them zekainim…

Yb

“ Clue for some evidence – this looking for candidates policy – does it happen to overlap with those who happen to promote a specific candidate ?

Lubavitch in general is not obsessed with the idea that the Rebbe is Moshiach- were lucky if you learn it in school. It’s Moshiach and geula in general and this is one little detail that makes it more real for many. Personally, I’m always looking out for Moshiach/ geula news, whether it’s that I just found my first young 100 year old (Walter Bingham), the war and arousal as a potential great shofar, and of course, if there’s news of a person who fits the candidate criteria, I’m all ears to find out more (obviously referring to not lubavitch here)…

Yb:

“ THIS WHOLE IDEA IS TOTALLY ABSENT IN KLAL YISRAEL > SAVE FOR ONE GROUP…….”

I hear your point. Like I said, looking for a candidate I think only comes from enhanced awareness and thirsting for geula. Its not like there is a specific Torah based mesora (some minhagim justify why Minhag is the same letters as gehennom, while others we would be moser Nefesh for), that we should NOT look for candidates, unless you know otherwise. As well really are, according to Gedolei Yisrael of all streams, afaik, on the cusp of geula, this to me would seem to be the normal reaction of those tapped in to the mindset, which the Rebbe worked very hard to instill in us (and I’m not talking about the Rebbe as Moshiach here, just general thirsting and excitement for geula. Which itself brings it closer.)

DaMoshe- I was not looking to put down satmar or anyone else. I meant that each group has their focus and that’s what they do. Any yid can benefit from satmars bikur cholim (great chessed!) and that doesn’t mean that anyone can call up satmar/ Rebbe with any need bgashmius uvruchnius and they’ll consider it their responsibility to help supply it. This isn’t limited to satmar as stated.

Arso, regarding nossi,

I don’t think the following sefer is lubavitch (Rashi quoted as well). In addition I’m glad you looked it up- you would have found sources all over Chabad through all the generations about the concept- this isn’ta new thing of the Rebbe, which was the main criticism.

נשיא, ראשי תיבות: ניצוצו של יעקב אבינו, שיעקב “נשמתו כלולה מכל הנשמות שבישראל” (מופיע בספר קהלת יעקב מערכת “רבי”).

Arso,

“I apologize for what I’m about to say, but you are getting really annoying! What proof do you have that he cared about every Jew any more than any other tzaddik does? Because he said so? ”

I think there are many factors.

1) personal time and investment into the needs of every Jew. Some examples: Holding yechidus 3x per week (if I’m not mistaken, definitely 2) throughout all hours of the night (Rabbi Shmuel lew was personally in yechidus at 6am) and then keeping up his normal demanding schedule that same morning on. Later on, the sheer numbers of people were incompatible, so that’s when he instituted dollars, a shorter form of yechidus for 1000s.

Additionally the Rebbe responded to thousands + Of letters that came in from all Jews. The Rebbe spent hours learning but also made time to respond to these and urgent calls that came in all hours of day and night.

The workload and personal responsibility were so great that the Rebbe never went on vacation or took a break. He only left NYC three times to visit newly instituted camps (that’s how seriously the Rebbe viewed children’s chinuch and safety.) even when recovering from a heart attack and after a stroke, The Rebbe refused to take a break because of the seriousness he viewed it.

2) The Rebbes care and concern for the Klal and individual. Whether it was the bochur the Rebbe dispatched early in the am to knock precisely at 6am on a man’s door and put on/ deliver tefillin, because the man had been by yechidus that night and the Rebbe had extracted a promise the man would put on tefillin, but only at 6 precisely, the people the Rebbe dispatched to bring women candles to light for shabbos in the hospital, The Chossid who the Rebbe asked to make a stopover in a random country until he met a Jew who had given Hashem a deadline for a sign He’s there so he shouldn’t convert, the boy who the Rebbe prepared for his fathers passing, and the countless others who got brachos and advice for recovery, and conversely the Rebbes clear guidance for matters of Yiddishkeit, political, military etc leadership, such as the many meetings with top brass or their agents in Israel, The advice to a soldier to bring some ruchnius to the bases, advising Rabbinical leadership etc etc. Whether an individual or leader, the Rebbe empowered each individual to light up his or her part of the world in a practical way.

3) The sheer breadth of the Rebbes guidance. He didn’t suffice with a general bracha or wish for people, rather he knew exactly what to do in each situation. If it was about Avodas Hashem, The Rebbe provided a clear roadmap. With health as well. And with security, politics, The finances of Eretz Yisrael, he was intimately familiar with the particulars of each situation and how to lead. although he never visited Eretz Yisrael, he could and did describe any neighborhood or security layout as needed.

In conclusion, unlike the warped view of a vain leader, to quote Rabbi Jonathan Sacks (who the Rebbe propelled on his journey to what he became) “other leaders create followers. The Rebbe creates leaders.”

“ 2) Often, similar to new baalei teshuva, the family of a new Lubavitcher was very nervous about the change and often something so blatant as changing one’s garments could set off bitter family strife.”

Hear hear. I’m friendly with a family who taught Chassidus to those searching for it from other kreizen. My friend who I mentioned earlier, is lubavitch but dresses like her families group for this reason precisely, and her parents are very happy.

HaLeivi,

“ You know, plenty of Chaddarim have internal feelings of pride, or of absolute truth. This is actually ok when you keep it to yourself. It stands to reason that, being that you cannot be in multiple tracks at the same time, you tend to view your current track as the only viable one. And for you, it is actually true — since it would be counter-productive to take on both.

But the trick is: Keep it to yourself!”

We generally do tend to keep it to ourselves. Except when we’re scoffed at. Then you get a taste of our pride in our derech.

Yb

“ 2] CS wrote that non habad women MAY fall into watching non Jewish movies .
So MAY the habad women .
Is there any evidence of increased prevalence in the case of non habad women ?
Based on anecdotal evidence it might be just the opposite.”

You’ll have to remember this was said in response to Arso who claimed that lubavitch is way behind in yiras shomayim than other groups. My point was other groups demand external appearances etc (with repercussions) and so even someone dressed perfectly may still be tempted to watch movies and other undesirable things/ behaviors. Whereas in Chabad you pretty much see what you get- in fact we overall tend to dress more modern than our personal standards are, than the other way around.

Of course we also have people who are modern, and unfortunately go off. We are not immune, but I would say our yiras shomayim is at least comparable if not better overall, taking into account that many aren’t ffb, certainly not for generations.

“3] CS insinuated that non habad rebeim and rabanim do not feel responsibility for klal yisrael .”

I think this was an obvious fact-Chabad reaches all Jews wherever they’re at. This doesn’t mean satmar provides bikur Cholim packs only to satmar or zaka only treat one type of Jew. Au contraire. But they are not looking, nor are equipped to help every Jew with every issue, spiritual or physical, the way the Rebbe led. If you don’t know what I mean, you can see the my encounter videos from jem from every walk of life, or open the igros kodesh of the Rebbe for that matter. This is not a slur on others, it’s just extraordinary leadership.

So now I’ve caught up on page 5. Enough time spent… iyH will continue a different time.