Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
UJM:
They didn’t just “disagree with him” as in “eilu viEilu”. They condemned him for his “innovations” and the like.
Rav Aharon Kotler stated that Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik was responsible for “all the tuma in America”.As to the main point you were trying to make, had he created “Modern Orthodoxy” as a temporary kiruv stage, then that would have been bad enough.
But, instead, he claimed (when creating MO) that only his (Maskilic) way would survive, and “separatist orthodoxy” would become a museum-piece. Of course, netzach Yisrael lo yishaker, as we just read, so his prediction would obviously not be possible, but that is even more obvious in hindsight.
B”H, the opposite has happened (compare the numbers in BMG and other yeshivos versus those in YU, and also note all the “flip-outs” who realize that “Modern Orthodoxy” is absurd, and then go to NIRC or other such yeshivos after being shmaded in YU, and become traditionally orthodox instead of “Modern Orthodox”). BE”H, this will continue to happen until the heresy and idolatry of “Modern Orthodoxy” finally becomes history.
Once again, to all the Zionists with the pathetic stories:
Please stop wasting time, and get back to the OP’s point.“Non Political”
As I recall, your claim was that no poskim bring down the oaths as halacha.
So, I correctly pointed out that numerous poskim indeed do so, as the Satmar Rav brings down and as shown in that thread.Chaim:
Why are you accusing of lies? First of all, the Brisker Rav lived in E”Y, but that’s besides the point. His summoning the Brisker B”D for every title he had to use when addressing Rabbi Kook is documented in the Brisker Rav books, if I am not mistaken.Anyways, we’re making progress, B”H. You went from “eilu viEilu” to “most versus a few”. Please G-d, you will see the truth that Zionism is indeed universally acknowledged as the heresy and idolatry that it most obviously is.
yankel berel and all the Zionists with the pathetic stories:
Please stop wasting time, and get back to the OP’s point.Yes, even gedolim wrote nice titles. They had no choice, as Rabbi Kook was very powerful politically, and they had to deal with him.
Do you know that the Brisker Rav convened his Beis Din for each title that he wrote?As I mentioned numerous times to Chaim, this is why stories are irrelevant. They are subject to interpretation, and could be missing crucial details, like here.
StrugglingBachur:
Businesses need to make money, but there certainly should be chesed organizations who could help bachurim increase their level of kedusha, including sponsoring a filter for them. Maybe some gevirim will get together to make it happen.yankel berel:
It is you who is rewriting both history and facts.The fact is that Rabbi Kook published outright heresy. Period. Whether or not to consider him a kofer is a dispute among the gedolim. But it is simply a fact that Rabbi Kook wrote heresy. Like his soccer player line and much, much more. And that heresy is still polluting (via lectures by students and students of students) countless Jewish souls worldwide.
The Chazon Ish definitively ruled it is forbidden to even sell Rabbi Kook’s “hashkafa” books, let alone read them. It is false to imply that he therefore *approved* in any way of his halacha books.
Regarding the Imrei Emes’s letter and his supposed approval of Rabbi Kook, even that supposed approval was specifically after Rabbi Kook had agreed to retract his heretical writings – a retraction that Rabbi Kook never did, and Rabbi Kook also later claimed that he meant only to retract the “language” which offended simpletons, rather than the “substance”, of his heretical writings. The Imrei Emes, therefore, never approved of Rabbi Kook, and, in response to the Gerrer Rebbe presenting this, Rav Yosef Chaim and Rav Yitzchak Yerucham did not retract their ban against Rabbi Kook because they found his alleged disavowal of his heretical works to be “insubstantial”.
Regarding all three points: Rabbi Kook’s heresy and the Imrei Emes’s letter and your rewriting history, you conveniently omitted the parts of that letter where the Imrei Emes wrote against Rabbi Kook’s heresy (including the Gerrer Rebbe stating that Rabbi Kook is “omer al tamei tahor” and), like where the Gerrer Rebbe stated that for Rabbi Kook “to elevate the [physical] exercise of sinners and to flatter them in a shocking manner, to say to them, “Welcome, ministering angels from on high” – this angers the G-d-fearing to a point that is impossible to imagine.
Non-Political:
Take your pick if you were to read his works, but, off-hand, just this one should do it: Rabbi Kook’s stating that the entire Torah will be revealed through the atheist soccer players whom, Rabbi Kook claimed, will be on a greater level of prophecy than even Moshe Rabbeinu.Non Political:
Of course they are brought liHalacha, as stated. Your laziness to look at VaYoel Moshe or elsewhere is not an excuse for insinuating that others are making things up.See this post here, on these very boards, for example: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/refuting-the-three-oaths-gimel-shevuot#post-2266950
Chaim:
No, you did not do your job. You did not take the numerous quoted sefarim and ask Rizhin how their alleged mesorah works with or argues with that. The “flip side” is not going to Satmar to ask about your stories about Rizhin; that’s beyond silly. Have Rizhin publish a teshuva that their alleged mesorah disagrees with all the quoted sefarim here and elsewhere including but not limited to Rav Elchonon, the Chazon Ish, the Brisker Rav, the Gerrer Rebbe and all the rest. You can’t, of course.ZSK:
It wasn’t an emotional issue; I (seemingly incorrectly) thought that if I pointed out the obvious fallacies in each of those “arguments” that even Zionists would understand that they were being fooled by their idol. I guess I was wrong about that.No, you don’t have any “mesorah” for Zionism, because there is no such thing. Nobody claimed to be following his rabbeim in promoting Zionism. In fact, Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik acknowledged that he was breaking from his (rather strong anti-Zionist) mesorah in doing so, and the gedolim did not agree.
My response to Avi K’s nonsense remains, it is your “facts” that are wrong, and you are the one ignoring the facts presented in my perfectly valid IMHO response about. But since you’re so smart, why don’t you take the original sources, including the Satmar Rav (can’t mention his name to Zionists, I know) and Rav Elchonon and all the rest, and ask a talmid chacham to reconcile your alleged mesorah with the plain sourced halachos that they present, even without their own opinions.
Regarding Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik’s “six knocks” nonsense, I referenced a printed source in which you could see why it is nonsense. Again, you chose to ignore that.
The answer is, as published by the Brisker Rav and signed off by both the Gerrer Rebbe and many others, “Religious Zionism” is “a sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”, and as published by Rav Elchonon, that Zionism is idolatry and “Religious Zionism” is idolatry and “religion” biShituf. It’s really that simple.
As to your second post:
You are also surely aware that an “ideological dispute” doesn’t cause a gadol to write like that. As Rav Shach pointed out, Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik was unfortunately influenced by his “external” learning, to the point that Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik wrote heresy that is shocking to see. That’s well beyond “ideological dispute”. And stories are irrelevant, as noted.I find it amusing (and pathetic) that Zionists ignore all the poskim that bring the oaths and claim they are “only” aggadita and therefore could and should be disregarded because, say, the Rambam didn’t include them in his sefer haMitzvos (for which there are reasons given). Yet, those same Zionists, will go with stories and legends to disregard published halacha simply because of a story that someone learned with someone else or whatever other irrelevancies.
somejewiknow:
Rav Shach would be one. He wrote that Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik wrote “mamash divrei kefirah ad kidei hishtomemus liMareh haAyin”. He further stated that these were things typically forbidden to write, but that he (Rav Shach) was writing (i.e., repeating) them to show how terrible “chochmas chitzoniyus” causes “siluf viYerida biDaas Torah”. Rav Aharon Kotler stated that Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik was responsible for “all the tuma in America”, while on that topic.Chaim:
You mistake loyalty to Torah with “arrogance” and “bullying”. Once more, go take all the Torah sources to Rizhin and whomever else you want, and ask them to reconcile your interpretations and stories with those. You obviously won’t do that because your mind is already made up. That’s your business.Also, I quoted multiple sources, unlike you who quoted your stories and factually irrelevant random works, like EHS which is anyways not a serious work due to its circumstances but anyways discussed only settling in E”Y but not Zionism and its political “State” and its wars, etc. So, if anyone is full of hot air, it is not I.
Avi K:
Your wording is disgusting, as you labeled a “canard” an open gemara, which is also brought down by poskim on the spot there and elsewhere.The Satmar Rav and others (conveniently) dismiss all your non-points. In brief:
1. No he didn’t. But we anyways pasken like the oaths, as per all the poskim that bring those as halacha including the Rambam himself in Iggeres Teiman.
2. No, that was not referring to these oaths.
3. See #1. He paskened like them in Iggeres Teiman. You are left with an academic question as to why it’s not in other sefarim too. The Satmar Rav and others addressed that academic question, which is otherwise irrelevant.
4. Nope. See #1. As the Satmar Rav brought down, the Rambam and others held them to be applicable despite “too much” persecution. And even if that were true, the “cancellation” would apply only to the oath of not rebelling against the nation, but not the others of dechikas haKeitz and aliya biChoma, all of which the Zionists flagrantly violated.
5. This is am haAratzus, at best. Assuming that Rav Meir Simcha even wrote that, because it was written with no source, in a “religious zionist” publication, all he allegedy said was that the *fear of violating* the oaths would no longer apply in light of the Balfour Declaration permitting Jews to settle in then-Palestine. So, he never stated that the oaths no longer apply, only that the oath against rebelling against the nations would not be a concern if the nations permit Jews to settle there. But that Balfour Declaration was anyways later retracted, the Brits wrote that the Zionists read much more into it than they had permitted, and, perhaps more importantly, none of this has any bearing on the other oaths, including dechikas haKeitz and aliya biChoma, all of which the Zionists flagrantly violated, as mentioned above.
6. This is beyond am haAratzus. And therefore? The gedolim all disagreed with Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik’s nonsense/heresy (that’s what it is) in his Kol Dodi Dofek speech of his invented 6 defakos, to which you refer. Any ben Torah can see how his 6 defakos argument is pathetically wrong, especially with hindsight, the benefit of which that Rabbi Dr. did not have. Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro spends a few pages in his book on dealing with that nonsense from Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik, in case you’re interested. Ayein sham.As Rav Schwab noted, the “Modern Orthodox” are in fact “stale and fossilized” (see #6 above, in particular – he didn’t have the benefit of hindsight, but we all certainly do) and we may not yield even one inch to their “heresy”.
Zionism is factually against Judaism and the Torah, and no amount of “Religious Zionist” propaganda will make it even remotely okay, and there are no source they can bring, as the OP noted.
Chaim:
Yes, they are irrelevant. Go ahead and produce the written teshuva from them supporting Zionism.
The reasons have already been noted multiple times why both Rabbi Kook and EHS are irrelevant.
Zionism is clearly and factually against the Torah. Always was, and nobody of authority holds otherwise.ZSK:
You’re hilarious. But wrong.
Rav Elchonon, the Chazon Ish and all the others are not “Satmar or Brisk”.Chaim:
So ask them how they could have gone against all the gedolim, and also, even more importantly, do they still hold that way or do they realize with hindsight that was (obviously) wrong.Chaim:
Might as well just repeat my prior post below.
Rabbi Kook and Eim HaBanim Semeichah are both irrelevant, as already mentioned above.The biggest problem with you attempting to make Zionism “kosher” is that it so obviously is not, even without any gedolim saying anything about it, also as mentioned above.
The bottom line is that you and others have zero sources to justify the unjustifiable. Period. If you want to be honest, please see the below post, as mentioned.
Prior post:
“I asked a rizyna einkel what they do with the Satmar Reba and they told me there are answers.”
That is pathetic.
There are numerous other gedolim with published writings on the topic which is what you would need to bring them if you cared to get an honest answer rather than rely on your interpretations of stories.Zionism is against the Torah according to all Torah authorities. Period.
AAQ and Square_Root and other Zionists.
The Zionists both caused and contributed to the Holocaust. Period. Game over.
Their idolatrous worshipers, even “religious” ones, then have the audacity to blame the gedolim for what is in fact the blame of the Zionists.Rav Elchonon famously wrote then that the letter’s subjects should emigrate from Europe to the US only if they will not be going into an impossible spiritual sakana, like emigrating via YU instead of via Torah VoDaath, for example.
Recall as well that then-Palestine was in great danger of being invaded by the Nazis, which is exactly what (almost) happened (Rommel). So, that is an additional reason why it was not wise to move to Palestine. In fact, the Brisker Rav did so only because he held that the spiritual (not physical) sakana in Europe was a bigger non-starter than was the great physical sakana in then-Palestine.
Rav Hutner wrote about this in the Jewish media decades ago, perhaps in the Jewish Observer.
But Zionist idolaters aren’t interested in truth; they’re interested only in their idol, which has caused death and destruction, both physical and spiritual, to Jews over a century on a scale never before seen in history.
That anyways wasn’t the topic of this post, though. The topic is the lack of any sources for the Zionists’ impossible attempt to insert their idolatry into the Torah.
Chaim:
“I asked a rizyna einkel what they do with the Satmar Reba and they told me there are answers.”
That is pathetic.
There are numerous other gedolim with published writings on the topic which is what you would need to bring them if you cared to get an honest answer rather than rely on your interpretations of stories.Zionism is against the Torah according to all Torah authorities. Period.
Duvidf:
“the 3 Oaths that are not brought by any traditional halachic authority.”The oaths are brought by many halachic authorities including the Rambam himself in Iggeres Teiman and many others, as the Satmar Rav quotes in his sefarim.
The “Religious Zionist” idolaters don’t like that, and they pathetically try to explain them away, but fail miserably.
ZSK:
There are zero sources that permit the heresy and idolatry that is Zionism. Please attempt to provide those sources here.
Eim HaBanim Semeicha is irrelevant, as noted there, in case that was one of them. Anything from Rabbi Kook is even less relevant, also as noted there.Chaim:
Your assertion that the Satmar Rav was writing only hashkafa and not halacha is not only silly and false, because he was very obviously telling people what you can and cannot do vis a vis the Zionists and its “State”, but that distinction is also a false distinction created by the maskilim; hashkafa is very much part of halacha. Regardless, he clearly wrote both hashkafa and halacha, not just theoretical hashkafa.And, as before, your stories are irrelevant, no matter how many people were there, in part because stories are extremely subjective. A sefer, on the other hand, contains black-and-white instruction and explanation. As mentioned in the other thread, if you wanted to be honest about those stories, you would take the numerous sefarim on the topic to the Rizyners and ask them how your stories about them are reconciled with those writings, and if they actually disagree with those sefarim, which they obviously cannot, as Zionism is indefensible.
SQUARE_ROOT:
Exactly zero gedolim became pro-Zionist after the Holocaust (which the Zionist both caused a to which the Zionists contributed, as it happens).
Some, however, did change their tactics in dealing with these wicked heretics. But the Torah never changes, of course.Non Political:
The Satmar Rav did so decades ago in VaYoel Moshe. Not that the Ramban would any way justify Zionism, regardless.
somejewiknow:
Of course, there is no actual dissent. But many people mistakenly think there is because of a number of factors, including but not limited to.
1. Zionist propaganda is overwhelming, and causes people to be confused about even basics of the Torah.
2. Certain halachic positions of the Satmar Rav, like not visiting the Kosel and not voting in Israeli elections (by Israeli citizens, of course) are, for unknown reasons, not held by other gedolim.
3. Many schools are “non-Zionist”, at least to some extent, and therefore simply do not teach about the heresy and idolatry of Zionism.The above helps give rise to the pathetically false meme that anti-Zionism is strange and only “Satmar” (not to mention Brisk and others).
May Hashem have mercy on all His children and remove all the idols from this Earth with the coming of Mashiach BB”A.
The easiest current work-around seems to be to open a new tab in your browser and then logout/login from/to YWN in that tab. Then, in your original YWN tab, it should accept your comment when you hit submit.
Chaim:
You can repeat that as much as you’d like, but it doesn’t make it any less false than it is. Your interpretation of actions by Rebbes has zero relevance when compared to black-and-white sefarim by the greatest gedolim that Klal Yisrael has had in the past century.If you want to be honest, you can take those sefarim to those rebbes and ask them if they disagree. Looking forward to hearing how that goes.
Square Root:
It’s in the Brisker Rav books by Rabbi Meller; I don’t recall chapter and verse, but you’re welcome to read those and find it there.Yankel Berel:
It would take very long to respond to all of your posts, and you could just resolve this easily by speaking to an LOR.
But Zionism and its “State” are heresy, idolatry and remain no less of the same today as they always were, as all the gedolim stated and as is obvious to anyone not fooled by that idol. The only thing that changed was the tactics in dealing with them.Non-Political and all the other Zionists:
So, basically, the Zionists have nothing to respond.
Zionism is very obviously idolatry and heresy. Period. As the Brisker Rav noted explicitly, its “State” is a violation of the entire Torah.If you don’t like my explanation of how it is obvious, then you’re welcome to find anyone who argues with the Brisker Rav (and all the others).
Chaim:
Yes, your stories from those rebbes and all the rest were addressed numerous times. You still have brought no sefarim to defend the indefensible (because you can’t because there are zero), so you resort to pathetic name-calling like “bullying”. The facts are clear, and the gedolim, including the Gerrer Rebbe, published in writing to that effect.Chaim:
You are defending the indefensible and with zero Torah sources. You also insist on shaming people who were fooled by Rabbi Kasher’s forged KK re: “Aschalta diGeula”, which plain Torah (and now the hindsight of history) shows it very clearly is not.You are also being disingenuous in claiming that it’s only Rav Elchonon or only the Satmar Rav, when it also the Brisker Rav, the Chazon Ish and many other world-class gedolim.
Zionism of all flavors is idolatry, heresy, and indefensible. Period.
Yankel Berel:
As mentioned, no less than the Brisker Rav stated openly that the establishment of the “State” is a kefirah in the entire Torah, and that would be even if the Chofetz Chaim were its Prime Minister. The entire Torah obviously includes all 13.However, anyone can easily see that establishment of any state before Mashiach comes is a violation of at least:
8. The belief in the divine origin of the Torah.
9. The belief in the immutability of the Torah.
12. The belief in the arrival of the Messiah and the messianic era.Hashem said that your are forsworn not to return to the land (certainly not en masse and with force and politically and against the nations – all of which the Zionists flagrantly violated) until I return you to the land.
Non Political:
These are obvious.
#7 is an easy one, as it happens. Rabbi Kook, in one of his many heretical statements he published, and one for which the Gerrer Rebbe specifically called him out, claimed that the atheist soccer players will be on a higher level than Moshe Rabbeinu.
#10 and 11 is also straight out contradicted by the “Jerusalem Program”, as mentioned. Claiming that the Jewish people are dependent on a safe and secure “State of Israel”, as the Zionists believe, is an obvious contradiction to sechar viOnesh.Regarding:
“The fact is that common ancestry (being descendants of Avroham, Yitzchok, and Yaacov), language (Lashon HaKadosh), and land (Eretz Yisroel) are not exclusively components of secular Nationalism but are, in fact, crucial components of our Jewish National identity is probably not lost on HaKatan. I think this is why he makes a point of writing in terms of “The State”. ”The point is that Zionism (including “Religious”) tries to change Judaism into a (godless, for secular flavors) nationalism, and this is heresy and idolatry.
Unlike secular nations, we do not have any of those components to make us a “nation”; rather, we are a people of the Torah (Jewish) religion. Most of us are indeed descendants of the avos. But geirim are not (simply speaking), yet they are also Jews as are descendants of the Avos. Lashon haKodesh is surely unique to us, as the lomdei Torah. But it is not our “national” ancient spoken language. Most Jews today speak the language of their country in which they reside (or Yiddish). Finally, Eretz Yisrael is the land to which we will be restored when Mashiach comes, and even before then there are some mitzvos that we can fulfill only in Eretz Yisrael. But it is not our homeland, birthplace, etc. unlike (liHavdil) the lands of secular nations.
Give it up. Yes, it’s nonsense. Find a sefer from anyone that says otherwise. You can’t.
And EHS was already noted multiple times as irrelevant, including that the Chabad Rebbe Rashab (since you’re such a big fan of rebbes) wrote that the author was very far from Zionism. He advocated living in E”Y, not politically ruling. Regardless, his work on the topic is still irrelevant because, like Zionism, it uses sevaras that are clearly emotional/not demonstrable.
AAQ:
You seem to be making lots of assumptions, none of which are true. Your perspective is also the opposite of Daas Torah, which makes sense as per that Chazal.“Religious Zionists” are of course not what you stated. Rather, as Rav Elchonon wrote, which holds true ever since, the “Religious Zionists” believe in both religion (Torah) and the idolatry of Zionism. They happen to be even more fanatical in their Zionism than are their secular counter-parts, because they worship Zionism “for real”. They literally hold that the “State” and everything about that “State” is holy, a”l.
The “Religious Zionists” have also hurt the chareidim and other Torah Jews in multiple ways, going all the way back. Speaking of teshuva, since you brought it up, one of their rabbis was recently quoted as stating how they need to do teshuva for how they, those rabbis, ignored their own co-religionists (the “Religious Zionist hesder students) who begged them for mercy regarding the impossible nisyonos and shmad in the Zionist army to which the Zionists subjected them, which their rabbis ignored (because the idolatry of Zionism is more important, of course). He also said they (“Religious Zionists”) now should defend the chareidim from the Zionists’ unprecedented assault on the chareidim in drafting the chareidim.
Non Political:
Yes, you’re right, it was self-contradictory. Sorry about the lack of clarity. Of course, it was Hashem who established it in the Torah, while Rav Saadiah Gaon made it more famous (hence the use of the term “established”) that as the Torah principle that it obviously already is. Does that help?We just read this past Shabbos that Hashem made us into a People at Har Sinai stating that we will be a “mamleches kohanim viGoy kadosh”, as opposed to being the Zionists’ active redefinition of Judaism (shared by the “Religious Zionists”, other than the “godless” part) to just another European-type godless nation (meaning common land, language and culture, etc.) whose nationhood is based in the portion of the holy land that the Zionists have invaded (as opposed to our people-hood in fact being based in the holy Torah only – which was given in the desert – as Rav Saadiah Gaon pointed out).
While all the gedolim have written that Zionism is against the Torah (and the Brisker Rav – not only the Satmar Rav – wrote that Zionism/its “State” is against “the entire Torah” – and Briskers are very careful with their words), here you have an open example of Zionism being in violation of multiple of the 13 ikkarim (from Chabad org), including:
5. The imperative to worship G?d exclusively and no foreign false gods.
7. The belief in the primacy of the prophecy of Moses our teacher.
8. The belief in the divine origin of the Torah.
9. The belief in the immutability of the Torah.
10. The belief in G?d’s omniscience and providence.
11. The belief in divine reward and retribution.
12. The belief in the arrival of the Messiah and the messianic era.Accepting CH”V the Zionists’ religion (shared by the “Religious Zionists), that Jews are a nation like all others and that their “State” is the Nation-State of that people and that, as the Zionists claim in their (typically Zionist-shmad-named) “Jerusalem Project” that the future of the Jewish people is dependent on a safe and secure State of Israel, easily violated all of the above and more.
The insistence of the Zionists here on sticking to – and promoting – their idolatry on a frum site is beyond shameful and pathetic. Please repent.
yankel berel:
“It is clear that the overwhelming majority of gdolei yisrael disagreed with this satmar proposition.”
That’s a very strong statement to make. You must have numerous sefarim from which you can quote (or at least name!) that indicate what you wrote.Obviously not. All the gedolim agreed as to the heresy and idolatry of Zionism, as elucidated by the Satmar Rav, but some (not all) did disagree on minor points like visiting the Kosel or Israeli citizens voting in Israeli elections.
Zionists should stop trying to defend the indefensible.
yankel berel:
You seem earnest, unlike some others posting here who simply want to parrot nonsense.Rav Saadiah Gaon established the Torah principle that the Jews are a people only through the Torah and not a nation like all others. We literally just read about this yesterday, on Shabbos. This is not merely historical, but no less a matter of Torah than anything else in Torah. Therefore, for the wicked Zionists to contradict that and claim that Jews are indeed a “nationality” with a common land, culture, etc., as the wicked Zionists literally redefine Judaism from what it is to a (secular and godless) nationalist land-based religion, yes, that is obviously both idolatry and heresy.
The creation of the Zionist “State” was according to both the Brisker Rav and the Satmar Rav (and many others, with zero authoritative detractors) against the entire Torah (including against the Oaths), and for multiple reasons.
SQUARE_ROOT and all the other Zionists:
You’re still attempting to defend the indefensible.You haven’t brought even a single sefer to support the idolatry and heresy of Zionism which is the same idolatry and heresy as it was for a century both before and after the Zionists sacrificed rivers of Jewish blood against the Torah (and also common sense) to create (and expand and attempt to maintain) their pseudo-“State”.
Regarding your last comment, in addition to the above, the Satmar Rav continued to publish after the 1950s, including, of course, “Al haGeulah viAl haTemura”. It is both disingenuous and outright dishonest to pretend that the latest anti-Zionist sefer was from the 1950s. So, the dishonesty deserved a special mention.
Chaim, Yankel Berel and the other Zionists: You have quoted no sefarim to defend the indefensible.
Zionism is idolatry and heresy, according to all gedolim, as per their clear published writings, no matter how many stories you bring to try to say otherwise.Eim HaBanim Semeichah is irrelevant for multiple reasons, as mentioned, regardless of how much of a gaon he was.
Rabbi Kook wrote and publicized heresy, as per the gedolim and, again, their published and indisputable writings. It doesn’t matter who his brother-in-law was, and it doesn’t matter who succeeded him and who ate lunch with him. He wrote and published heresy. Period.Still, even both of those, did not allow for fighting and wars, which is exactly what the Zionists did to get their “State”.
Stop trying to defend the indefensible.The Brisker Rav stated that the Zionist state is a kefirah in the entire Torah. Yes, that’s the Brisker Rav. The Satmar Rav points out that among the Zionist State’s numerous problems is that the Zionists intentionally judge Jews with their invented laws that are against the Torah, while Jews are to be subject to only Torah law. This alone is a severe chillul Hashem.
It is a pathetic Zionist meme, which Chaim is also using, to claim that the Satmar Rav is the only one who objected to Zionism and its “State”. It was all the gedolim, including the Chofetz Chaim, Rav Elchonon, the Satmar Rav, the Brisker Rav, the Chazon Ish, Rav Reuven Grozovsky, the Gerrer Rebbe, and more, many of whom lived well past 1948, and some of whom lived under the Zionists, too. (This will trigger likely trigger Chaim’s alleged Rabbi Kook story the Zionists like to say, which is almost certainly not true – but irrelevant regardless – especially because both Rav Berel and Rav Gorelick stated a story just the opposite, that the Chofetz Chaim, upon seeing Rabbi Kook’s writings, stated “Kook shmook”).
It’s also pathetic that you insist on hanging on to your stories, when the idolatry and heresy of Zionism is so blatant. The Jewish people are not a nation like all others. We do not have common land, language, culture and the like as our commonality as do the gentile nations. We are a religion, and a people, only because of the Torah, as Rav Sadiah Gaon noted. Claiming, as all Zionists do, that Jews are a nation like all others and that the State of Israel is the nation-state of that nation, which is the unchanging basic definition of any form of Zionism, is both idolatry and heresy. Period. There is no sefer by any gadol that defends that. Period. Rabbi Kook is irrelevant, as noted, in case you want to argue that he does.
Regarding Rav Aharon Kotler, no, I never agreed to that. I simply noted that even if true that’s irrelevant to the point that Zionism is idolatry and heresy.
Claiming it is aschalta diGeulah is obviously apikorsus, because it is against the Torah in multiple ways, not only one way. One who denies even one letter or even a deRabbanan is a heretic. However, there are shitos that distinguish between labeling someone a heretic versus the heretical beliefs that they have. One does not always denote the other. Therefore, there was room to be lenient and not label Rabbi Kook a heretic despite the clearly heretical things he published.
Zionism is against the Torah according to all Torah authorities untainted by the idolatrous and heretical filth that is Zionism, as those gedolim published clearly and openly. Period. Stop defending the indefensible.
yankel berel:
You’re making things up and speculating about Rav Elconon and his printed sefer, and no gadol would agree with any of your revisionist and imaginative statements. As well, you’re claiming that just because in your mistaken opinion he was wrong about keeping Torah and educating children in the Zionist “State”, that therefore the rest of what he stated doesn’t apply. This is of course absurd.As he stated, Zionism is idolatry, and “Religious Zionism” is simply idolatry and religion biShituf.
Regarding Rav Aharon Kotler and looking out for the welfare of Jews everywhere, is nothing new. The Brisker Rav and Chazon Ish also held that the “State” needed to be dealt with to whatever extent and in whatever ways. All of that has zero to do with the bottom line that Zionism is idolatry and heresy against the Torah according to all. Period.
No, Chaim, I meant “THE” gedolim. I’ve also quoted sefarim from those gedolim.
There were zero big gedolim who supported Zionism, despite your constant insistence about the same, and you cannot bring even one sefer that says so.
Zionism is obviously against the Torah. Period.yankel berel:
The Steipler definitely did not allow for that possibility of it being aschalta diGeulah, of course, only that someone (back then) who mistakenly believed that is not to be labeled a heretic.There is a machlokes whether someone who believes in heresy must necessarily be labeled a heretic or not. So, even if he is not labeled a heretic for believing that, still, that belief is heresy. And even according to those who do not distinguish between the two, that belief is still absolutely mistaken and against the Torah (even if not at the level of heresy).
ZSK:
You might be surprised about your assumptions. Regardless, the facts are what they are. The gedolim publicly and explicitly and in writing labeled as idolatry and heresy all forms of Zionism, including “Religious Zionism”. There is no defending the indefensible.Chaim:
For the umpteenth time, stories are irrelevant. They are subject to memory, interpretation, and more. Stories cannot come close to answering black-and-white sefarim, of which there are none that support the heresy and idolatry of Zionism including Eim HaBanim Semeichah which is anyways irrelevant for multiple reasons.Regarding your nonsense about Zionist wars needing to have been fought, if you read what the gedolim had to say on the matter (and the plain history), you would see that you are wrong about that, too. The Zionists have been fighting wars for over a century, and definitely did not need to to do so. The world – and Jews in particular – would have been far better off and with far more peace were it not for Zionism and its endless wars and sacrifices of rivers of Jewish blood (including in the Holocaust, but even besides for that).
yankel berel:
It is not I who read that into Zionism, but the greatest gedolim of the past century.Even your formulation of “its [Israel’s] success equals the success of its inhabitants” is heretical.
Hashem “runs” the Jewish people on sichar viOnesh, unlike the major Zionist heresy in their “Jerusalem Program” that “the future of the Jewish people is dependent on a strong and secure State of Israel”. Therefore, He – alone – determines the success of Jews everywhere.It’s also silly. For example, there are millions of Jews in NY. Nobody ever dreamed of supporting NY “because of all the Jews who live there”. They recognize that Hashem runs the world, and that He will look after His children in whichever country/state/city that they live. As well, the Zionist “State” is not a legitimate “State”, as per halacha, and most of its inhabitants live in the land about which the Torah writes: “Hashem’s eyes are always on it [the holy land]”. So, it is beyond silly (and idolatrous) to support that idol and its “State”, when its very purpose and active goal is to destroy Judaism.
Regarding that “medinah” serving as a “reminder to some of the diaspora Jews not to assimilate”, even if there was any truth to that (I highly doubt that it helps), it is far outweighed by the intentional assimilation/shmad of its own citizens, including the forced assimilation/shmad of the chareidim whose lives the Zionists ruined a century ago and have not stopped since and by the idolatry and heresy of Zionism that it spreads throughout the world.
Square Root:
None of your sources have anything to do with Zionism. If anything, those are all sources against Zionism, as Zionism is the greatest defilement of the holy land.Chaim:
Your stories – and especially your interpretations of the same – are irrelevant, as noted.You cannot bring even one source that contradicts the Satmar Rav, Rav Elchonon and all the rest who wrote openly and explicitly that – not only secular Zionism but also – “Religious Zionism” is idolatry and heresy.
As it happens, even Rabbi AY Kook did not allow war/fighting to achieve his nationalist and Hegelian goals, and he died well before the Zionists sacrificed thousands of Jews on the idolatrous altar of Zionism. Rabbi Kook also did not quote any sources supporting his superimposing those foreign values unto the Torah, which is why Rav Yosef Yedid mockingly called him a navi in his sefer’s piece titled “Regarding a heretic about whom we need to protest”, the Gerrer Rebbe wrote that Rabbi Kook “ruled al tamei tahor” and all the rest.
Zionism has zero roots in our Torah, as proven by many gedolim. Stop the misinformation.
yankel berel:
Nope. Plain logic indicates that it is meakev the geulah, but that’s besides the point.
The Brisker Rav stated the same, that if not for the Zionist “Independence”, the geulah would (not just could, but would) have happened at that time. So, it is not a “daas yachid” of the Satmar Rav.
Chaim, your stories are irrelevant, as noted.
And trying to prove that working for them implies any sort of acceptance of Zionism is even more foolish.In MiaKatovitz Ad 5 Iyar, the author noted how Rabbi Kasher forged his “kol korei” with the big reishis tzemichas lie. As it happens, Rav Ovadiah quoted that Kol Korei not knowing that it was a forgery. The Satmar Rav called Rabbi Kasher “the biggest treifa”.
His opinion then was the “urgent need”, as you called it, to move to E”Y, with permission of the nations, and very much also not to politically rule there.
No, you can’t “keep on going”, because you haven’t brought any sources and there are no others because those don’t exist. Please go ahead and source them.
Zionism of any flavor is idolatry and heresy. Period. No matter how many siyumim anyone makes.
Chaim:
There is zero source for Zionism in the Torah, as mentioned. Other than people whom the gedolim recognized as deviant, and who anyone with half a brain should realize the same, there is no sefer that comes close to claiming any such thing. But the greatest gedolim vehemently condemned the obvious heresy and idolatry that is Zionism. Period.Your stories about some Rebbe making a party on some day or whatever are totally irrelevant. There is zero Torah authority that permits Zionism, which should be obvious to any thinking Jew.
Chaim:
Back to your other question:
Of course the “mesiras nefesh” of Zionist soldiers does NOT at all make them holy. What kind of silly and heretical question is that (it’s because of Zionist idolatry, of course)? One has zero to do with the other. The Torah defines what is and is not holiness. IDF service is the exact opposite of holiness, of course.AAQ:
The confusion seems to be yours. Zionism did not stop in 1948 or even 1967. Zionism is what drives the Zionist “State”. Its parliament members speak about whether something they are debating is or is not Zionist. Etc.Chaim87:
Rav Elchonon and all the gedolim wrote that “Mizrachi”/”Religious Zionism” is idolatry (and heresy). That makes the answer to your question obvious, despite your refusal to accept the Torah’s indisputable view, as written above: while these particular ones may be very well-meaning, they are of course not “holy fine Jews” if they violate the inviolable prohibition of A”Z. What kind of silly question is that?And, again, no there absolutely nowhere in the Torah that allows for any form of Zionism, as the gedolim wrote and as should also be obvious to any Jewish child untainted by Zionist idolatry.
yankel berel:
Why do you write foolishness? “The allure of Zionism has lost its appeal.” Really? Mizrachi and “Religious Zionists” worship this molech god with human sacrifices even more fanatically than do their secular counterparts. It has not lost its appeal, unfortunately. And on this very board you have people claiming that they are good frum Jews just like anyone else. Many Jews unfortunately believe the Zionist lie that Jews are a “nation” like all other nations and that the Zionists represent that mythical nation. That itself is a tragedy, even without all the Zionist shmad and other Zionist attacks on G-d, His Torah and His people.And as Daas Yachid pointed out, the Satmar Rav was not a “Daas Yachid” re: Zionism except for specific measures including not visiting the kosel and Israelis not voting in Israeli elections.
Chaim87:
You’re reaching new lows attempting to defend the indefensible.
The name being the same as Rav Rhines’ yeshiva doesn’t change that Zionism is treif and Rav Elchonon did not allow emigration to a spiritual makom sakana but held that YTV was not a spiritual makom sakana.No, there is zero source for Zionism having its roots in Torah CH”V. That’s simply absurd.
You wrote:
“Can anyone deny that many hesder boys are fine frum Jews?”Yes, all the gedolim, from Rav Elchonon to the Brisker Rav and all the rest denied exactly that, despite your inability to read their plain text stating exactly that. Rav Elchonon, for example, wrote that “Religious Zionism” is A”Z and religion “biShituf”. That’s exactly what it is, no matter how many siyumim they make. That’s the sad reality.
But you know better than all the gedolim.
SQUARE_ROOT:
I just noticed the end of your comment where you hilariously claimed that, if not for the Zionists, there would be only three yeshivos today in the territory controlled by the Zionists in and around the holy land.First of all, Mashiach would have come by now, if not for the Zionists. See the Satmar Rav’s Divrei Yoel on VaYechi and also the Brisker Rav in his biography books. Second, if not for the Zionists, who fight G-d, His Torah and His people, there would obviously be far more yeshivos there, just as there has been an explosion of new yeshivos in the rest of the world.
It’s pathetic how Zionists are so attached to their idol that they lose all sense of logic.
anon1m0us:
“Kol HaPosel…”You are being motzi laaz on Rav Elchonon. He never forbade moving to America. He advised against doing so via the agency of specific “Modern Orthodox/Religious Zionist” “yeshivas”, and instead advised doing so via Torah VoDaath.
Chaim just posts the thing over and over no matter what anyone writes.
A machaa must be made over his statement about gedolim wanted a “homeland” in E”Y. Ch”V, as that is against the Torah. E”Y is not a homeland. It is a powerful tool that could be used to grow closer to Hashem and perform mitzvos there that cannot be done elsewhere. It is not a “homeland” like the Zionist claim.
This nonsense about post-Zionism is just that. Rav Chaim pointed out that while people like this poster think that the Zionists shmad in order to get a State (which is terrible in and of itself, of course), the truth is that the Zionists need a State in order to shmad. The evil Zionists are actively doing so today, even more so than in the past, like in the drafting yeshiva students and in their overall war on G-d and His Torah including denying their citizens even the very basics of Judaism like shema yisrael…
Rav Elchonon and others wrote that “Religious Zionism” is the same idolatry as their secular counterparts but that the “Religious” ones mix in religion to that idolatry. No, there is no mesorah for “Religious Zionism”, and you cannot bring any sefarim that support your heretical claim. Zionism of all stripes is idolatry and heresy, as our gedolim have consistently noted for over a century, regardless of how much or how at all they dealt with the Zionists pre-State and post-State.