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AAQ:
Of course, the baryonim of today would be the Zionists. The wicked Zionists created a cataclysmic mess in the holy land, and need billions of dollars each year to keep their idol “State” going. Like by the baryonim, the wicked Zionists wanted to force Jews to fight wars in the Jews’ land rather than letting them live in peace, as we just learned in the gemara in gittin over 9 Av.Chaim can make up his stories, but they don’t change the facts that Zionism in all forms is treif, as written explicitly by the greatest gedolim.
And yes, of course there are answers to the weak questions implicit in the stories.But, bottom line, you have Rav Elchonon’s Kovetz Maamarim, the Brisker Rav, the Chazon Ish and all the rest who published that Zionism is idolatry and heresy. For example, the Brisker Rav published a KK in a newspaper, signed by, among others, the Gerrer Rebbe, that “Religious Zionist” education is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”. Those are the facts. And then there are Chaim’s stories.
user176:
Promoting Zionism in any way is the epitome of sinas Yisrael (as in hate of Jews).
But, by your logic, attacking Palestinian Nationalism in any of its forms is literally baseless hate.yankel berel:
You can make up whatever stories you want. The Zionist army is shmad, in addition to the issues of the three oaths. The Zionist army is all three of the inviolable prohibitions: idolatry, immorality and spilling blood – and shmadAnd your nonsense about the oaths is just that. Many poskim throughout the ages have ruled that the oaths are in force, even though it is not a clear mitzva in the Torah like honoring your parents or the like. And none of the authorities you quoted ruled against that. The oaths are clearly in force, which is why the “Religious Zionist” idolaters try to hard to nullify them with various nonsensical claims.
yb:
The Zionist army is shmad. Period. It is expressly designed for that. All the gedolim (including Rav Steinman) said it is, as mentioned. We all know many people who were shmadded, as it happens. Look at the statistics of Israelis. This is silly.yankel berel:
You and the Zionists could start by responding to the calling out of all the sheker and heresy you’ve spewed on these boards.Regarding your points:
It makes no practical difference if the Tur does or does not bring that Maharal. He doesn’t rule against the Maharal. And we still know very clearly, from poskim throughout the ages and from the terrible instances of destruction of Jews like harugei beithar, that the three oaths are G-d’s will and very much in effect.No, Zionist idolatry is the result of a disconnection from G-d. The medrash states explicitly that harugei beithar was due to their having violated the oaths. Don’t be a kofer.
Nope. The clear reality of what the Middle East is now, if anything, provides more opportunity than in the past for the Zionist “State” to be handed over to Esav, or some other solution, that does not involve loss of anything other than that idol and its numerous problems and astronomical waste of money.
Nope. There is no “factual and clear evidence” of that sort. All the gedolim (as recently as like yesterday, as it happens) have confirmed that it is absolutely forbidden for Jews to join the Zionist shmad army. LBC”L, Rav Steinman told a boy who came to him that he guarantees him that if the boy joins that shmad army, no matter the framework, that he will come out of it “a total goy”! And you idolaters refuse to acknowledge the reality that the express purpose of that shmad army is to shmad Jews, to convert Jews and Judaism into Zionists and idolatrous godless Zionism. So even if it were true that some infinitesimally percentage seem to come out frum, against all odds, that doesn’t at all permit others to put themselves in that situation. It is forbidden to place one’s self in a place of nisayon. We pray each day to save ourselves from that. And on and on…
There is not such “clear evidence that the majority of haredei talmidei hahamim …” rejected the oaths as the source of any punishment. You would have to quote where they explicitly deny that the oaths were the cause, and you obviously cannot do that because that simply isn’t true. You’re simply assuming.
Again, nope. See Biayos haZman, for example. Rav Reuven there wrote that he doesn’t “come on to” the oaths because there are other halachic considerations that are even more obvious.
It is the idolatrous Zionists who think they understand the Torah better than all the gedolim who explicitly forbade Zionism including “Religious Zionism”.
But they have no answer, of course. Eileh elohecha tziyonim.
AAQ:
Again, “having a draft is not a normal thing, at least not in most of the world.”, regardless of “documentation”.
The rest of your post is incomprehensible.AAQ:
That does not at all imply that the Mir R”Y in any way permitted the abomination of joining the Zionist shmad army in any case. He just stated that given the rules, he did not want to be called a liar.AAQ:
You still don’t seem to understand.The Zionists invaded against the will of the Jews there, and destroyed the peace of the Jews there, over a century ago. If anything, the Zionists should prioritize protecting the chareidim, because the Zionists are the ones who ruined their peaceful existence there over a century ago. (Yes, if you ask about the Chevron Massacre then you obviously are ignorant of history, because that, too, was a result of – not despite – Zionism, as Rav Baruch Kaplan and others noted).
No, having a draft is not a normal thing, at least not in most of the world. And, again, as the Chazon Ish told David Green, the first Zionist “Prime Minister”, if not for the Zionists, there would have been no need for any army there.
So, the Zionists are the ones who chose to invade against the will of the Jews there; therefore, the Zionists cannot make the chareidim try to clean up the cataclysmic mess the Zionists made. As well, specifically regarding lomdei Torah, the Zionists made a deal with Agudah that Torah learners would not be drafted. The wicked Zionists may not renege on their deal.
SQUARE_ROOT:
If somebody were to endlessly spew propaganda for Jews for J, any normal Jew would answer that propaganda to prevent others from falling prey to idolatry and lies. Same here. Your hate should be directed to the wicked Zionists who have destroyed generations of Jews. But your idolatry tells you otherwise. So drop the idol.AAQ:
“> invaded the holy land against the will of the Jews there (the chareidim).Eida Charedit (that is not the same as large number of current haredim) was located at a couple of places under Turks. They did not control the country.
And I am personally fine if you want to separate from the country as Neturei Karta and live under your own protection. As far as I know none of Roshei Yeshivos hold by this and reside in the areas covered by Iron Dome.”No, of course they did not control the country; it was first under Turkish rule, then under British rule via the UN until the Zionist fought and terrorized the British into leaving and refused the UN’s wish to start a new mandate when the Zionists declared their “independence”. Either way, the Zionists invaded against the will of the Jews there, as mentioned before, and Rav YCC Sonnenfeld who led the Jews there did not want the Zionists to represent the Jews, which is why the Zionists murdered Dr. DeHaan, HY”D. Because Zionism comes before Jewish lives, as the Zionists amply demonstrated during (and before and after) the Holocaust.
Your “suggestion” seems odd. Obviously, they all live under whatever conditions the Zionist invaders provide, whether that is the Iron Dome or anything else. The Jews there have no choice in that matter unless they were to move out of the country. But it is the Zionists who invaded against the will of the Jews living there, as mentioned, so it is the Zionists who need to leave the Jews alone and also not impoverish them and let them work like in every normal country without requiring the Jews to convert to Zionism in the Zionist shmad army first. It’s really not complicated.
SQUARE_ROOT:
Your call to Star-K and their answer that they never heard of it does not therefore mean that I lied. I did not lie. It simply means that they never heard of it.
I did in fact hear that directly from a world-class talmid chacham. But all the gedolim anyways said the same in their writings, as mentioned. The Chazon Ish himself has in his Maaseh Ish that an apikores nowadays is one that either celebrates the Zionist “independence” day or one who blames the gedolim for the death of the Jews in Europe. So you can take all that to the STAR-K, if you want. But the greatest gedolim have stated this repeatedly.Yankel Berel:
Actually, it is stupid to claim that the oaths are not applicable/practical, because there are midrashim and other chazal who bring actual cases of how violations of those oaths caused extreme destruction, and numerous poskim who bring the oaths as practically in force (usually called “halacha”).The Avnei Nezer obviously knew of those midrashim and other maamarei chazal, too, so he obviously agrees that the oaths are in force/practical. His original piece, in context, would be much more informative and useful than your translation of one or two paragraphs.
Harugei Beithar, for example, was due to violating the oaths – and resulted in the greatest bloodbath of Jews in history – far, far greater than even the Holocaust, depending on how you learn that gemara in Gittin.
Shevet Efraim (the ones who left Egypt early), as another example, was a violation of the oaths which caused them to be wiped out, R”L L”A.
This isn’t very complicated. For example, there is no halacha that Moshe Rabbeinu is the greatest Navi who ever lived. The Torah says it (explicitly), so we know it’s both true and practically applicable (as in you would be a heretic for stating that any other prophet did reach his level), even if it’s not a halacha. Same here. The Torah tells us about the oaths, including times when violating those caused punishment R”L L”A, so we know that the oaths are both true and practically applicable.
As we know from all the Zionists who fruitlessly attempt to explain away the oaths, we all know that the oaths are indisputably both valid and practical/halachically in force, just like Moshe Rabbeinu being the greatest navi who ever lived.
simcha613:
No, having an elective gemara class for girls is not at all “perfectly in line with this halacha”. It is forbidden to teach them Torah sheBaal peh, particularly gemara and the like, as Rav Moshe Zatza”l noted. If women choose to do so on their own, that’s their business. But their possibility of learning it improperly obviously does not then permit rabbis to violate the halacha so that the women should learn properly.The answer is likely that you seem to feel, with no actual basis, that it’s an eilu viEilu, so this is how you seek to justify it. But, in reality, it is simply forbidden.
none2.0:
Why do you post here? This is intended for Orthodox Jews (and not people with an extreme imagination). Your libel against the Rabbis and the gemara is silly and baseless. The gemara is G-d’s truth, regardless of whether or not any women choose to learn it.SQUARE_ROOT:
Take it up with all the gedolim, like Rav Elchonon Wasserman and the Chazon Ish and the Brisker Rav and all the rest.
“Religious Zionism” is idolatry. Period.Your insane ranting about this causing a “civil war” is just that: insane. The wicked Zionists constantly crank out immense propaganda against the Torah, deceiving countless Jews (including you), R”L L”A. There will be no such thing, of course. But when Moshiach comes, you and all the Zionist heretics will see clearly just how stupid and insane is your idol of Zionism.
riva:
It is actually the Zionists who are literally full of hate, who have destroyed generations of Jews and working even harder than in the past to destroy the olam haTorah in E”Y. It is the wicked Zionists who impoverish the Jews there and don’t allow them to work until age 26! unless the Jew agrees to first convert to Zionism from Judaism in the Zionist shmad army. That is extremely hateful. And on and on.Always_Ask_Questions:
Nope. Even that argument doesn’t apply. The wicked Zionists invaded the holy land against the will of the Jews there (the chareidim). The Jews there (chareidim), therefore, have zero responsibility to help out the Zionists in their endless wars. If anything, the wicked Zionists (as they agreed to Agudah when they declared “independence”) need to treat the chareidim as a protected class.Always_Ask_Questions:
Your story from the Ponevezher Rav is, of course, not a stira to the Satmar Rav, though they could argue on that point, in theory.
Since the PR held that the building would eventually turn into a yeshiva – for however long it would last – the PR wanted that building to be built well.SQUARE_ROOT:
Peaceful dismantlement of the Zionist “State” has never been publicly advocated by the Jewish political organizations like Agudah, in part because there is no clear path to doing so without the cooperation of the Zionists.yankel berel:
Huh? Age doesn’t make a practical difference. It is forbidden to put one’s self in a position of being shmaded and all three of the gimmel chamuros. They are yehareig viAl Yaavor.Yes, the Zionist shmad army happens to be even worse for someone younger but, no, being older does not at all remove the numerous non-starters with joining the Zionist shmad army. That should be plain and obvious.
yechiell:
Zionism is diametrically opposed to the Torah and Judaism. That is a simple fact.
A much better question, then, would be why this site allows “Religious Zionist” idolaters to spew their idolatry. After all, this site calls itself Yeshiva World News, not Mizrachi World News.simcha613:
Your claims are not based in reality. Jews lived in Eretz Yisrael long before the Zionists invaded in the early 20th century, and well before they declared their “State” in 1948. As well, Jews throughout the ages tangibly expressed their ahavas haAretz by moving there, including the Or HaChaim HaKadosh hundreds of years ago and many, many, many others.The Zionist “State” has destroyed more Torah than anything else in history. They’ve shmaded at least three generations of Jews, numbering in the millions of people!! The yeshivos there exist despite the Zionists, not because of them. The biggest supporter of Torah currently is actually the Russian President, not the Zionists.
No, the “medina” is not only far from perfect, it is an abomination and massive rebellion against G-d. And it has shmaded generations of Jews as mentioned. If any secular country in the world were to do even a fraction of what the wicked Zionists do to the Jews there, everyone would be yelling about it non-stop. So, to claim as you did that we are “better off with the medina” is both absurd (on a practical level) and heresy: we are always better off following G-d’s wishes, not massively rebelling against him as the Zionist “State” was, is and does.
You are also totally misrepresenting the origins of Zionism. The express purpose of Zionism always was and remains today: change Judaism from a Torah-based religion to an anti-G-d idolatrous nation-state-based “religion”.
Hashem did not choose to grant any yeshuos through the Zionists. Hashem did listen to those who prayed for the Zionists and did give them success, to the tremendous detriment of Jews worldwide. “We” do not have a medina. “We” do not have E”Y. We could have visited E”Y before the Zionists came, and could have lived there before then, too. The Zionists have wreaked havoc and cataclysmic destruction there in E”Y.
It is shocking that above even has to be written and is not already obvious to all.
anonymous Jew:
Actually, it is not “like any other legitimate government”. The Zionists made a deal back when they first founded their “State” that Agudah would not publicly deny the Zionists’ outrageously false claim of representing Jews, in return for the Zionists not interfering with the chareidim there, allowing them to educate their children according to the Torah and exempting those Jews from the Zionists’ shamd army. Their whole “State” would never have come into being if not for that deal, which the wicked Zionists have now totally torpedoed.none2.0:
You seem confused as to reality. Did you know that Jews were able to visit the Kosel before 1948 and that only thanks to the Zionists’ war of “independence” did the Jews lose the ability to go to the Kosel? Were it not for Zionism and its “State”, Mashiach would have (not just could have but would have) been here decades ago (according to both the Brisker Rav and Satmar Rav), so we would certainly have had no problem going to the holy land. But, besides for that, the Jews lived peacefully with their neighbors in the holy land until the Zionist interlopers came in and lit the region aflame. Yes, the Chevron Massacre/Pogrom in the 1920s was a direct result of Zionism, of course.yechiell:
By Moshe Rabbeinu, G-d explicitly instructed the Jews then to go up and conquer the land. The plan was that they would do so without any war, like when they blew the shofar around Jericho and the walls came down, etc. As well, his army consisted of only supremely righteous Jews, never mind that the high spiritual level of a typical Jew then is unimaginable to us today. As Chazal say, even a maidservant at the sea saw greater spiritual visions than did Yechezkel the prophet.As opposed to today, Zionism is itself a gross rebellion against G-d (unlike Moshe Rabbeinu, of course) and the Zionist army is designed expressly to shmad Jews and is a den of all three of the inviolable sins, A”Z, giluy arayos and shifachas damim.
For starters. So, it’s not even a question.
SQUARE_ROOT:
Achdus is required among Jews, excluding idolaters and heretics.
The Chazon Ish held that wine owned by a “Religious Zionist” is yayin nesech.So long as the Zionists continue to lie that they represent Jews and continue to shmad Jews, causing some Jews to pray for that idol and, even worse, to be attached to that idol, CH”V, it is the wicked Zionists that are impeding the geulah.
yankel berel:
That is inaccurate, of course. G-d, as per His Torah and as stated by the Torah sages then and afterwards (including but not at all limited to the Satmar Rav), is the One Who had a problem with the Zionist enterprise including, but certainly not limited to, the mass settling of the land against the will of the gentiles that the Zionists accomplished via war, all forbidden.Interesting.
First, a general observation: many things that the goyim do actually have their roots in our mesorah. That doesn’t make their version right, of course, but just worth noting.Now, let’s take your points one at a time:
There is certainly a mekor for giving gifts of jewelry to the Kallah, as we see from Eliezer eved Avraham and on.
There are mekoros for wearing white, in various contexts, as it is a sign of purity, which makes sense considering that they just had their personal Yom Kippur that day.
The types of hotels to which newlyweds go (meaning, nothing you would allow your kids to go near) are very unlikely to be infamous for those types of activities.
The solution to that is either for men to not watch that video or, better, for the videographer to create two final videos: one with the dancing and one without.
The last point is certainly true, though.SQUARE_ROOT:
I assume you won’t bother responding and will just find some more hevel uReus ruach to copy/paste to a new thread and just ignore the Torah’s view against your idolatry. But, on the off-chance that you do read this…Your latest response to me is full of nonsense, and my quote of the Torah’s view on this topic has never been refuted, to my humble knowledge.
“Religious Zionism” is idolatry as per Rav Elchonon, the Brisker Rav (who lived there, too), and all the rest. No, of course that has zero to do with the first Rashi in chumash, Avraham Avinu and all the mitzvos that are dependent on being in E”Y. Your giluy panim baTorah sheLo kaHalacha of the gemara regarding one who lives in chutz laAretz is also silly. The basic understanding of that gemara is that those who live in Hashem’s land, E”Y, are under the “direct oversight”, so to speak, of Hashem, as opposed to those who live outside E”Y who are *also* under the oversight of the “sar” of the nation in which they live. Of course, the “sar” of the Zionist paradise is the Satan, so that presumably puts those living there under the oversight of the satan, too.
Your academic question of why the oaths do not appear in the Rambam’s Yad and in the S”A has zero impact on the halachic relevance of the oaths, as brought down by numerous poskim throughout the ages.
Additionally, the nations of the world did not ever approve the creation of a Jewish State in 1920, as you falsely claimed. Balfour did signify British approval of a “national homeland” for the Jews, but not necessarily sovereignty, and that declaration was anyways rescinded by the subsequent White Papers and also clarified by the British that the Zionists “read much more” into Balfour than was written there.
Even if none of that were true, that doesn’t at all mean, as you again falsely claim and with zero basis for the same, that “therefore the oaths cannot apply in our time”. Of course they can and do apply, and the creation of the Zionist paradise has zero impact on that applicability because, in part, it is those very oaths that forbade the founding of that “State” (in addition to the numerous other halachic problems in founding that “State”). Again, all the prohibitions of the oaths, including Meridah baUmos, dechikas haKetz and aliyah baChoma, remain just as severely prohibited now as they were throughout the ages.
Yes, Rav Elchonon never saw the “State”. But he saw its ideological engine, Zionism, quite well. And the Brisker Rav, the Chazon Ish and many other gedolim certainly did see that “State” and even lived in it, and held the same as did Rav Elchonon that Zionism is heresy and idolatry.
The Zionist victory in 1967 was not miraculous; it was derech haTeva. There certainly was hashgacha from Hashem, just as there is anything that Jews do. But their victory was very much not miraculous.
That “baal teshuva” movement you mentioned was only needed because the Zionists shmaded almost all the Jews there to begin with! And that anyways doesn’t change the Torah CH”V.
The Satmar Rav expressed numerous severe problems with the Zionist “State”, but socialism was obviously not a very big concern of his.
Regarding your ramblings at the end of your post:
No, there is no valid logic to those who disagree with the Torah’s viewpoint of the idol and heresy of Zionism. No, asking the gentiles to “take over” would not in any way lead to a “civil war” and attacks on Jews and another Holocaust, CH”V. First of all, it is the Zionists who caused the Holocaust (primarily to achieve their “State” afterwards. So that concern wouldn’t apply here. Second, the Jews there would be much safer under a normal gentile government than under the Zionist idolaters and heretics under which they live now. That is true both materially and spiritually. Your accusations of me at the end of your post are totally baseless and beyond the pale – and you’re likely projecting given that you are the Zionist.LMT:
Just because the Zionist flag itself is not an idol, according to Rav Moshe, that doesn’t at all change the psak of all the gedolim both before and after him that Zionism itself certainly is A”Z. Pretty straightforward.AAQ and Simcha613:
As Rabbi Jachter quoted from the Chofetz Chaim and Rav Moshe that it is forbidden to teach gemara to women and to normalize it for them, as the MO do. No sources permit that. If some women – with no schooling in gemara and with no encouragement to do so – choose on their own to learn gemara, that’s a different – and personal – matter. But, again, the Modern Orthodox attempt to stretch BY to learning gemara simply does not work and is wrong. Period.SQUARE_ROOT:
All wrong and misquoted. And it is you and some of the other idolaters who are the ones doing what you accuse others.Yankel berel:
The Maharal holds that violating the oaths is never permitted, yehareig viAl yaavor. Regardless, the Zionist army is, liChol haDeios, yehareig viAl yaavor. So, this is anyway just academic, if your point is to try to convince people to allow the Zionists to shmad them (and expose them to all three of the gimmel chamuros – and much more) in that Zionist army.yankel berel:
As mentioned on other threads, the fact that it’s not mentioned in various sefarim does not at all indicate that those sefarim dispute the halachic applicability of the oaths.Go ahead and quote and cite the Avnei Nezer where/what he says that the oaths are not halachically applicable.
Meanwhile, there are numerous sources brought down by the Satmar Rav and others of poskim throughout the ages who invoke the oaths as being halachically applicable, with some bringing examples of the same, like Ben Koziva and the rivers of blood of millions (or more) of Jews there, et al.
ZSK:
I meant Iggeres Teiman; sorry about that. Regardless, the facts are, as mentioned above, that the oaths are brought down by poskim throughout the ages, and the Satmar Rav did not invent them and their applicability.yankel berel:
Self-defense, however it is needed, would be permitted only if running away is not an option. But the Zionist shmad army is totally irrelevant to all of that.yankel berel:
You can laugh, but you can’t invent your own facts.
Avnei Neizer did not dispute the halachic applicability of the oaths. Go ahead and quote and cite what he said about that.
“Not mentioned” does not in any way mean dispute.
But, as mentioned, the Satmar Rav (Zionists brains automatically turn off) brings down many poskim who do bring – in their halacha sefarim – the halachic applicability of the oaths.
The oaths are undisputed halachically in force; go ahead and quote and cite a source that show one who does dispute it. But keep laughing.Square_Root:
More copy/paste Zionism already debunked elsewhere on these boards.yankel berel:
This isn’t a question. Both can be true, of course. If you are unable to run away, then you have no choice but to fight. But, of course, the preference is to run away, not to fight. Also, this is all anyways irrelevant to Zionism and its army, because that army is an army of shmad and all three of the gimmel chamuros. So, even if there were a need to fight, then that would still not even remotely permit anyone to be shmaded in the Zionist army.ard:
The CC quotes the Ramban there, if memory serves, that the prep for “war” that Yaakov did was to prepare to run away.AAQ:
You’re comparing Yiftach and Pinchas to the Chazon Ish and liHavdil elef alfai havdalos, the heretic David Green? Green went to him because he felt it would be politically beneficial to do so, of course, not because he was in the slightest interested in daas Torah.
Also, you’re stating that, by Yiftach, the only “daas Torah” was after the war, not on his appointment as leader and general before the war?SQUARE_ROOT:
He was also a Zionist (and a terrorist). It’s nice that he kept Shabbos (for whatever were his reasons) but, as you presumably know, if one denies even one letter of the Torah, then he is a heretic. Zionism denies the entire Torah, of course, and he was the leader of that “State”.☕️coffee addict:
Good point. It’s all nonsense, of course.More Zionist nonsense and lies.
“There is no rational path from gas chambers to global influence.”
That’s true. Except, in this case, the Zionists already had global influence long before the gas chambers (which they both caused and contributed to Jews being murdered in those).“Israel” is not an “ancient race” nor is it any of that other nonsense. It is an imposter “State” pretending to represent Jews while simultaneously committed to destroying Judaism and Jews and replacing those with Zionism and Zionists.
Regarding your personal comment, obviously, the “return” of Jews to the holy land in a manner that was and is against the will of G-d, is obviously not the fulfillment of any biblical prophecy of “returning to the land”. That discusses when Mashiach comes, of course.
Artscroll fantasies about the Zionists do make for nice reading material. But that’s also nonsense. Did they pray for him? Could be; he was a Jew, shmaded by Zionists as a child, after all. Did that mean that they endorsed anything about him and his “State”? Obviously not. Did they “respect him”? They also respected the Pope (and other world leaders). Hallalu ovdei A”Z vaHallalu ovdei A”Z.
Only brainwashed idolaters and the worst trolls refuse to see the truth that Zionism is idolatry and heresy and that it has caused cataclysmic damage to the Jewish people including destroying the Judaism of multiple generations of hundreds of thousands of Jews, if not more than that. And the oaths are undisputed halacha for many centuries, with actual examples brought down by Torah giants of what happened when the oaths were violated, including Ben Koziva and the Holocaust, both of which were the greatest causes of oceans of spilled Jewish blood, R”L L”A.
Eileh elohecha, Zionists.
LerntminTayrah:
You also need to understand Torah, not just learn it. And learn history.A shul with an abomination that is the Israeli flag does not automatically make the shul a place of idolatry. It does make it very strange, because flags don’t belong in shuls, in general – certainly not that of a foreign country – but that has nothing to do with the fact that Zionism is very clearly A”Z, as explicitly stated in writing by Rav Elchonon, the Brisker Rav, the Chazon Ish, and all the rest.
The Kastner train was largely funded by Agudah and American money. Regardless, that train was obviously not an idolatrous train, whatever that could even mean.
It isn’t wise to throw around expressions like even a one-day student knows, when the truth of what you claim is the opposite. First, you seem to have missed that meenus is very attractive, as Chazal point out, and that applies even today. As well, just because the yetzer hara for idolatry was removed, that doesn’t mean that therefore A”Z doesn’t exist. That’s silly. There is nothing stopping you from bowing down to a rock if you decided to do so. You have free will. It’s silly, of course, but that doesn’t mean you can’t do it. Same with Zionism. It’s very silly (far worse than that, actually), yet some still believe in that idol (and heresy).
yankel berel:
Nope. Nobody ever stated that “its preferable to rather let millions of innocent yehudim die , than be over on their corrupted version of non existent halachik shavu’ot.” That’s your invention. Of course, we all want all Jews to be well and good. But that doesn’t make it right to violate the oaths, of course.ZSK:
No, because you continue to perpetuate myths. I specifically wrote BUT NOT LIMITED TO to address your opinion on Moreh nevuchim. It doesn’t matter, even if you believe differently there. The poskim throughout the ages bring the oaths as halachically binding. To just reiterate the rest of the quote from my prior post: “Even the famous supposed quote from the Or Sameach that the Zionists love to distort (as mentioned above), clearly indicates that the oaths are halacha. Period. Please stop already with the nonsense that it is “non-halachic” just because it’s mentioned in an aggadita gemara.”AAQ:
“HaKatan, maybe I was not clear. This educated women need to have access to Judaism at comparable level they have to other areas of knowledge…”You seem to be proposing that because women know secular subjects on advanced levels that, therefore, they must also learn gemara (on high levels, lectures, BM, et al.) I don’t see any logic connecting those two.
Judge Ruchie Freier, for example, is a chassidic woman. I very highly doubt that she has ever learned gemara in any formal setting, if at all. Yet, she is perfectly capable of being a judge of secular law.
Again, simply speaking, G-d does not permit women to learn gemara, unlike men, as the CC noted and as Rav Moshe Feinstein noted, both quoted in the article by LBC”L Rabbi Jachter. Yet you come up with a sevara of them needing to do so just because some have advanced knowledge in secular topics? One has nothing to do with the other, as mentioned.
DaMoshe:
Zionism is idolatry, as you have seen on these boards numerous times, and you could open a Kovetz Maamarim from Rav Elchonon and the other sefarim that discuss it and label it as exactly that. There is nothing “hateful” about that. You are both ignoring reality and accusing falsely because, presumably, you want to have your idol of Zionism as you were taught/shmaded, rather than reading Torah sources on the matter and taking that to your rabbis to at least try to get an opinion from them.The gemara there states clearly that if not for the Zionists of the time, the baryonim, Jerusalem would never have been destroyed. The gemara indicates that the nephew of RYBZ was a leader of those thugs, as AAQ mentioned. These wicked thugs intentionally destroyed decades worth of stored food, plunging the city into horrific hunger, as the gemara describes, just to attempt to force Jews to join them in fighting the Romans rather than the Rabbonim’s approach of making peace. Again, Jerusalem would have never been destroyed had the wicked thugs not destroyed the people and the city from within.
ZSK:
In Egypt, prior to Matan Torah, we certainly did have our own mode of dress, language and names, as we know. That was necessary at that time, since we hadn’t yet received the Torah.“Am”, as it appears in the Torah, refers either to the Erev Rav, or to Klal Yisrael, the “People” who accepted the Torah, as in the “Am Hashem”. It has nothing to do with standard nationalist trappings. As Rav Saadiah Gaon wrote, our being one “People” is only through the Torah. Period. Nothing to do with “Nationalist” anything.
The Zionist usage of “Am Yisrael”, however, certainly is a misnomer because it refers to the citizens of the Zionist State.
anon1m0us:
No, that would be because the wicked Zionists lobbied governments against allowing Jews to escape to their countries and sabotaged other rescue efforts and on and on and on.AAQ:
Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik gave a public talmud class to women in Stern College for Women. MO schools have batei midrash where girls learn random gemaras. That is all wrong. Period. None of your arguments about how they need to better understand hilchos basar viChalav are in any way relevant to all of that. Let them understand basar biChalav as well as they can. But they do not need to learn gemara just like the men do. This is an MO delusion, not a valid reason to violate the Torah, which is what that is.And, again, the biggest raayah to that is that lots of orthodox girls go on to get advanced degrees just like MO girls do – yet none of the Orthodox girls feel the need to learn gemara, unlike the MO delusion about their girls needing to do so.
The answer is changing MO “culture” (like not lying to them from when they are children that they have to learn just like boys do) – or, more accurately, simply becoming Orthodox – not rebelling against G-d the His Torah.
yankel berel:
You are conflating (as Zionists always do) two different matters.
Regarding the cataclysmic mess that the Zionists made in the holy land, and against the wishes of the Jews there, it is indeed only reasonable that the Zionists attempt to clean up their own mess and leave the Jews out of it. Of course, the wicked Zionists are attempting to shmad the Jews there, and at levels never seen before, and harass and impoverish the Jews there.The other point is self-defense, to which all agree that one must defend one’s self, particularly if leaving the area of conflict is not possible. But the Zionist army is not relevant to that point, as the Zionist army is a shmad factory with all three of the gimmel chamuros, so that’s obviously a non-starter, regardless.
The nonsense about evacuating 8 million people is a straw man argument. As written above, if the Zionists wanted to end their forever wars – and the billions of dollars they needlessly waste each year on “defense” – they could go to the nations who would find a solution that would ensure the safety of the Jews (far better than the Zionists ever could) while ending Zionism and the mess the Zionists made, as the Satmar Rav wrote decades ago. But, of course, the Zionists would never do that, because, in their idolatrous anti-Jewish faith, Zionism is above all else including Jewish lives, as the Zionists demonstrated more than amply during (and before and after) the Holocaust.
DaMoshe:
You are a Zionist idolater who falsely and baselessly accuses others of “hate”. As an idolater attempting to spread that idolatry here, it is you who is showing hatred to G-d, His Torah and His people.DaMoshe:
Pathetic non-answer.The idolaters have no answer because, as mentioned, since no group of Orthodox Jewish women from then until now ever felt the need to learn Talmud, that obviously means that the problem (of “needing” to do so) is MO, not Judaism, of course.
Return to full Torah allegiance rather than a maskilic dilution of the same.
But, since you mentioned hate, the only ones to whom that applies are:
“Halo misanecha Hashem esna…”
So, are you implying that you Zionist idolaters fall into that category? I would hope not.