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Always_Ask_Questions:
The original Zionism is very much alive today.The entire purpose of Zionism is to replace both the Jewish people and the Jewish religion with a godless nationalist/Zionist gentile new Jew.
The Zionists have shmaded now three generations of “Israelis” and are attempting to further shmad the remainder of non-Zionist Jews under their control.
Maybe you are the one who needs to get out a little more and simply observe what goes in in Israel and around the world?
smerel:
I’m sorry that the three generations of Jews in Israel that the Zionists shmaded are of no consequence to you. It’s unfortunate that the spread of the heresy of Zionism worldwide is of no relevance to you.Zionism openly fights G-d far more than does Reform, and has far, far greater influence (including in this very forum) than does Reform. It’s not “nu, nu, not so bad”. Of course Reform is bad. But Zionism, from then until now, is orders of magnitude worse.
It’s too bad that you are preventing yourself from objectively evaluation that the Zionists have and continue to do far greater damage to Klal Yisrael than anything. Reform and Footsteps are a relative drop in that ocean in comparison.
@smerel:
No, American Kiruv organizations do not “focus on Israeli yordim” to the exclusion of American College students as you falsely imply.Rav Yaakov actually retracted that very statement after learning the Satmar Rav’s sefarim on Zionism, and told that to the Satmar Rav.
If not for the Zionists, Mashiach would have come in 1948, as both the Brisker Rav and Satmar Rav said. That’s first of all.
Besides for that, let’s repeat once again: the Zionist have shmaded at least three generations of Jews, especially the ones under their control in their Zionist State of Israel. That perspective is obvious nowadays, of course, to anyone not blinded by that Zionist idol.
Let’s be even more clear. The very purpose of Zionism and its State was, is and always will be Zionism, which is to redefine Judaism and its people from Torah-based to idolatrous Nation-State/Land/Zionist/Israel-based.
So, no, the Zionist “ideal”, and practice of the same (meaning shmad) is, unfortunately, very, very much alive, and is, by far, the greatest source of shmad worldwide, far, far greater than the dying “Reform” and whatever damage “Footsteps” has done.
@Always_Ask_Questions:
You’re not addressing my points but ignoring them.
@Avi K:
CH”V. Classic Zionist go-to line. The ones who truly hate Jews are the Zionists who make gezeiros against the Torah Jews in the parts of E”Y that the Zionists have invaded, known as the Zionist “State of Israel”.That “fact” is irrelevant, as mentioned above. The Zionists shmaded and continue to shmad three generations of Jews, as mentioned above. They support Torah to the extent necessary to “control” it, as they have said for decades.
Your idol of Zionism and its State have been called exactly that, an idol, by all gedolim. May Hashem show you the truth of His Torah and save you from this idol.
@Always_Ask_Questions:
No, my perception does not suffer from any such bias. Nor is it hyperbole.(Regarding Rav Elchonon, you can take out a kovetz maamrim and see for yourself.)
Let’s repeat. For close to a century, from even before the terrible date on which the Zionists founded their shmad State in 1948, the Zionists have ACTIVELY shmaded their “fellow” Jews, intentionally stripping their religion away from them. We now see three generations of Jews that are anywhere between either avowedly anti-religious or, at best, somewhat religious and believing in the idolatry of Zionism, all due only to Zionist shmad.
Nothing like that has happened in the USA. In fact, the opposite has occurred. Moreover, there are numerous kiruv and other places throughout the USA, including on colleges, and in communities. So there are plenty of opportunities for unaffiliated Jews to learn about their heritage. Finally, the USA is a religious country (though the left is certainly trying awfully hard to change that) that both believes in G-d and respects religion, including in their army (very unlike the Zionists). The Zionist entity hates G-d and abhors religion, though they do tolerate Judaism to whatever extent is necessary to “control” it and perpetuate their Big Lie of being the “Jewish” State.
AviraDeArah:
There are a number of very big differences between the two.
Eisav sonei liYaakov is axiomatic, but its practical application depends on, essentially, the degree of separation between Klal Yisrael and the umos. That’s what the Beis HaLeivi wrote on “hamavdil bein kodesh liChol, bein or liChosech, bein Yisrael laAmim…”.
As Rav Miller Zatza”l wrote, before the war, you had whole towns that were frum that became haskala towns. Numerous -isms, including, of course, Zionism, ensnared numerous Jews in their heretical nets. The Satmar Rav wrote how gedolim in the years before WW II said it would be a miracle if something did NOT happen to the Jews there.
Since WW II, however, almost everywhere, there has been an enormous tidal wave of recovery from the war and return to Torah. In the US, for example, the Torah landscape is massive relative to the little that existed before and immediately after WW II.
The only exception is, of course, the Zionist State of Israel, which shmaded and continues to shmad at least three generations now, though some of whom (but certainly not all) have come back to the Torah and, despite the Zionists’ many evils, there are many yeshivos there.
So, if your concern is safety in galus, you probably do not want to be under the Zionists which Rav Elchonon Wasserman called the worst galus of all, the galus of the Yevsektzia. Particularly when looking at a pig-eater like Yvet Lieberman, this becomes all the more apparent, though that applies similarly under the prior atheist Zionist Prime Minister Milikowsky (AKA “Netanyahu”) and all the others that preceded the pseudo-kippah wearing current Zionist PM.
Any claim that Israel is a “safe haven” for Jews is not only delusional but also simple Zionist idolatry. The Zionist mess, on every level, including both spiritual and physical, in the portions of E”Y that they have invaded, are nothing to envy.
re: Asking goyim to intervene is a bad idea:
Not in the case of evil Zionists, it’s not a bad idea.(akuperma: That’s Zionist mythology. The Zionists, as the self-appointed leaders of world Jewry, insisted Palestine or the gas chambers and the Zionists lobbied governments against allowing Jews into their countries.)
Other than the Holocaust (in which, anyways, the Zionists had much more involvement than most people could dream), the worst possible scenario is the Zionists.
Since the Zionists invaded a century ago, the frum community begged the British and UN to leave them separate from the Zionists.
AviraDeArah:
Right on. Yasher Koach.The Zionists don’t allow the chareidim to work unless they convert to Zionism. Abolishing that Zionist cruelty would help.
There is no reason that Hamodia couldn’t have published some pictures and simply captioned it “Rav Shaul Alter visits America”.
The omission of this whole visit was noticeable.
@akuperma
@Yabia OmerActually, the purpose of Zionism was and is, as Rav Chaim Brisker explained a century ago, long before 1948, simply shmad.
He said that people think that the Zionists shmad in order to achieve a State. But it’s the opposite: Zionists need a State in order to shmad.
The main goal of Zionism, as proudly noted on any of their web sites, is to change the Jewish people from a G-dly Torah people to a godless land-based nationalist nation.
That’s the purpose of Zionism. Always was and, of course, still is.
But, yes, chareidim (in and out of Israel) are living proof that Zionism is just a Big Lie and shmad.
“ashviger_with_Liquor”:
That story might be true, but it isn’t honest to claim there’s no way that Rabbi Schneerson ever at least entertained the possibility that he would be Mashiach.Rav Shach, in his efforts to prevent Klal Yisrael from falling for the fallacy of Chabad Messianism, stated that Rabbi Scheerson was trying to convince himself that he is Mashiach.
There’s much out there about this topic of Rabbi Schneerson indicating that he is/will be/could be Mashiach. Tablet magazine has a long article by R’ David Berger from secular year ’14, which has many references to Chabad and other publications, at least some of which (the links) are still active, about this.
Regarding Yaakov Avinu Lo Meis, it doesn’t mean that he didn’t pass away. It says Vayigva, which means according to one meforesh (on Avraham Avinu’s death, as I recall) that he became ill with choli meiayim before he died and then died.
The gemara in Taanis questions on the spot that they embalmed Yaakov and were maspid him, etc. so how could you say that he didn’t die? The gemara then answers that it does NOT say vaYamas because there is a drasha to be made from that omission. But, of course, he did pass away. He is buried in Mesaras haMachpeila. He, himself, told Yosef that he will die “meis”. Etc.
The Zera Shimshon (on ViZos HaBracha, if memory serves) quotes the Zohar that Moshe Rabbeinu lo meis. He says that “meis” means, if I understood correctly, that the neshama ascended to a higher state upon dying, meaning higher than that in which it was previously when alive/in the body.
So, he says, that both by Yaakov and Moshe, their neshama was just as pure, etc. while alive in their body as afterwards when they died and the neshama left their body; Yaakov Avinu, due to all the yissurim that he had in addition to his holiness and purity and Moshe Rabbeinu, of course, being the navi that only he was, etc.
We have a mesorah that Mashiach will come, so Rabbi Hillel’s opinion in the gemara is not practically relevant any more, for whomever brought that up before.
Next, even if Moshiach could be from those who have already passed away, to claim that Rabbi Schneerson, who lived many generations later, is greater than Daniel who was a real navi and whose prophecies are part of our Tanach, or even that he is greater than Rebbi (the compiler of the Mishna), is an absurd non-starter.
And the “Ain sof” line is an even worse heresy than the atzmus stuff. At least the atzmus stuff you could dreidel away with a docheik that is, of course, not the true explanation, but you could at least claim it is.
But saying that any human being is infinite (ain sof) is simply calling them G-d because the only infinite being is G-d himself. That’s it. This is essentially Christianity. Nebach.
The Zionists hate real Judaism because Zionism is all about replacing Judaism with Zionism, as can be seen on the WZO’s web site and elsewhere.
The Zionists, in addition to being heretics who shmad Jews, are also influenced by and have practiced various secular philosophies like Nietzsche’s uber-mensch, which is partly why they hold so much disdain for, and acted so abominably towards, the Yemenites and others.
Does that somewhat answer your questions?
Mobico:
Yes. I did.You could also look around at various communities and workplaces where you live (if you live in a civilized country). No way are those numbers remotely possible.
As well, it seems very ill-advised (no pun intended) to take the numbers from the world as a whole and then use that as a basis for advice you give to people in civilized countries. It would make much more sense to use just the numbers from that country or, at most, from only first-world countries.
mobico:
Your numbers are obviously grossly inaccurate, well beyond the point of absurdity.mobico:
1 out of 50 who contract Covid then die? Do you mean after 120 years?The survival rate of Covid is somewhere around 99.9%.
When davening in MO shuls, I find it strange that not only do the congregants not wear hats, including, in many cases, the Rabbi, many congregants (unlike the Rabbi) do not wear the attire that they would wear if meeting a king/nobleman/whatever.
Any MO “halakha” on that topic?
akuperma is, of course, right.
It’s true that hospitals were overwhelmed in the beginning, but that’s partly because Antiochus did not use the Hospital ship that President Trump sent him, and other preventable factors, including that Antiochus also decreed that life-saving treatments, like HCQ+Zinc (not HCQ alone) were forbidden.
This is a chutzpah of the highest order. A doctor should always have the right to say that based on his training and experience, this is what he feels is right for this particular patient. To have a politician deny that, and as a “blanket rule” is, again, a chutzpah of the highest order.
ViHaKesef yaAneh es haKol.
Syag:
No, that was a polite way of saying that he was and is right.I have seen online that people claim that Ivermectin can cure Covid, even once the immune system has attacked the body.
Always_Ask_Questions wrote:
> While I do not want to underestimate the challenges,
> should we not ask –
> what is the value of 12+ years of Jewish education
> that is destroyed in a few months of a dorm?Reply:
“Jewish education” does not typically precede enrolling and moving into a “college dorm”, other than in “Modern Orthodoxy”.Given the adulteration of “MO” education with “modernity”, Zionism and other heresies, it would not be a big surprise that a secular college dorm could do major damage to the soul of a Jew brought up “MO”.
But, even for someone who learned in a school that does not corrupt and taint their Judaism as does “MO”, still, of course a few months in a college dorm are lethal to a Jewish soul, regardless of how good is its education.
There are many examples in our mesorah about this. For example, Rashi tells us that the reason bnei Reuven joined with Korach in his rebellion against (Hashem and) Moshe Rabbeinu was their proximity to Korach. That’s it. Their proximity. Presumably, post-rebellion (start of), the bnei Reuven still learned Torah 24/7 as they always did. Yet even they were affected by this proximity to the point that they rebelled against Moshe Rabbeinu, about whom Hashem had already declared “viGam bicha yaameinu liOlam”.
A Jewish college student who is not only in proximity to all sorts of non-Jewish things, but also might join various non-Jewish activities and is also being actively taught all sorts of heresies, is obviously very vulnerable to losing all previous learning/hashkafa, etc. to the point of even losing his faith, R”L L”A.
As others have noted, it’s a result of Yiddish language infiltration into lashon haKodesh.
When speaking conversationally, it’s perfectly fine to speak Yiddish or any other language. But, when davening, Lashon haKodesh should be used without mixing in Yiddish into that pronunciation of Lashon haKodesh.
Someone pointed out that we have in this generation all the chesronos of the Dor haMabul, Dor haFlaga and Sedom. It’s both amazing and frightening that America could have taken such a drastic dive into sheker and toeiva as it has, especially recently.
(To his credit, President Trump brought back some decency to the country, but to no avail, as the current administration has dictated a total reversal of that and then worsening the same.)
The good news in all this is that we have a mesorah from Rav Chaim Volozhin that the last station in Galus for Torah is America. And since America (meaning the USA), as we knew it, seems to be fading into history, that means that Mashiach’s arrival must be imminent BB”A.
Avi K:
Nothing in your recent reply seems to have addressed the concern I raised above regarding children potentially learning improper hashkafos.It’s very possible that even an “Orthodox” Jew – especially one who spends his time on areas of *thought* that are outside of Torah – might have an improper hashkafa.
Therefore, you should not have your children (and possibly even yourself) listen to them because the children might absorb an improper hashkafa, and that could cause real spiritual damage R”L L”A.
I know this all sounds foreign to anyone who was educated with the poison of “Modern Orthodoxy”, but, as you wrote, accept the truth from whomever says it.
The point that others made about the nivul peh on some of his shows is a very valid one as well.
Avi K:
I think you missed my point because, unfortunately, modern-day Haskala, known as “Modern Orthodoxy”, does not ascribe the proper value to Hashkafa (and also not to Halacha, for that matter, but that’s a different point).I specifically mentioned “proper hashkafos”, as in “hashkafa”, not “halakha” (as it is spelled in your world).
Hashkafa literally means outlook which includes, of course, how you think. Listening to Mr. Shapiro’s shows will almost certainly influence how you think. As mentioned above, he is not daas Torah and, of course, does not claim to be.
Therefore, if once cares about their kids’ hashkafos, they might want to reconsider allowing them to listen to his shows, as I mentioned.
n0mesorah:
Actually communism, with the atheism that comes with it, is much more of an Avoda Zara than any other political stance.That depends on how much you value your kids’ getting only proper hashkafos.
While Mr. Shapiro speaks very well against liberal insanity, he is, nonetheless, not “daas Torah”, so there is no guarantee that everything he says will be in accordance with Daas Torah.
Sam Klein:
True, but then you need to pay another $500 per month or more to pay that additional amount mortgaged and likely PMI, making the monthly payment on a typical house + tuitions for a typical frum middle class family even less affordable.CTRebbe:
I would venture to guess that some have parents or others helping them with their housing or they are otherwise living in sub-standard conditions, which therefore enables them to afford some “luxuries”.But it is not normal to need help from your parents, even when you are both working.
Regarding out-of-town, in most cases that means, maybe, as low as $300,000 instead of, say, $500,000, (figure $10,000 per year saved) and possible lower taxes (figure $5,000 per year saved), though usually higher tuitions would more than make up that ($15,000) difference.
Either way, it’s still insanely expensive. 40 years ago, salaries were not much lower than now, but house prices were less than just the down-payment is now. Meaning, say, $60,000 for a house, not $600,000. And taxes were also thousands less.
The bottom line is that unless someone else is paying the down-payment and perhaps even more than that, a middle-class typical frum family cannot afford to pay tuitions and buy a house in a typical frum area.
Of course there is a middle-class crisis.
No, just because many in the 5 Towns and elsewhere are either upper-class (Two salaries of at least $100K or the equivalent) and/or have help from relatives, that doesn’t address the middle class.
Take typical salaries of today and typical house prices and real estate taxes of today, and compare the those to the same 10, 20, 30 and 40 years ago.
House prices used to be far, far, lower, while typical salaries have basically stayed the same over that period.
House prices in frum areas are typically $500K or more, with Real Estate Taxes at around $10K per year or more. If you live in NYC, the RE Taxes are lower but you likely more than make up for that with your City income tax.
For a 500K house, that means you need $100K just for the down payment. Even if you could somehow cover that (rich in-laws/uncle/whatever), that still leaves about $400K to mortgage, or about $3,000 per month including Real Estate taxes but before utilities, maintenance, repairs, etc.
Figure $50K per year total, after tax, just for the house. That’s already one “normal” salary (again, after tax).
Now add tuitions, even with breaks, and you’re looking at another $20,000-$30,000 or more, depending on the schools and number of kids.
So you need about $80,000 AFTER tax for just the house and tuitions. That’s without the car or cars, food and clothing, not to mention camp (as in day camp, never mind sleep-away).
And if both parents are working, then you likely need babysitting, which is another large expense (and also a big problem because in many cases those babysitters are not Jews, so that means the kids are effectively being raised, to a large degree, by a non-Jew).
Yes, this is insane.
@se2015
I want to understand this liberal “logic”.
A woman has a “right to choose” to murder her unborn/partially born infant. But that same woman (or man) cannot choose to forgo a vaccine?OP:
Presumably, the OP is referring to conspiracy theories, which I have not read, so I can’t comment on those theories.My question is, though, whatever those theories may claim, what does that have anything to do with Hashem running the world?
In other words, what the gentiles do or don’t intend to do is one discussion. LiHavdil, that Hashem runs the world and allows only what He sees fit to allow, is a separate matter.
Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro has a nice shiur on this topic:
if I understood correctly, the answer is that this way we could earn MORE reward. Otherwise, everyone would just be the same…It’s not “we”; these Israeli girls are naive, and not necessarily coordinating with their parents.
akuperma:
Secular colleges also have mixing of genders (an issue not only during online classes but perhaps for group projects and the like), the horrific modern culture which pervades them including some of the courses, which they might require, that are anti-Torah to the core, and more real problems.The pritzus issue alone, even in a virtual classroom, is enough reason to avoid secular colleges.
That’s besides for “minor” issues, like classes or exams scheduled on Shabbos/Yom Tov, etc.
This question seems odd. Of course American Jews, like all Jews, care about E”Y. It is Hashem’s holy land, and we daven at least three times each day that Hashem send Mashiach and return us all there BB”A.
But none of the discussion here has anything to do with Eretz Yisrael.
If the question was do we care about our brethren in E”Y, then the answer to that is, of course we do, just like we care about our brethren in France, China or anywhere else.
If the question is “Do American Jews care about [international relationships with] the Zionist State of Israel?” then that is an entirely different question.
The answer to that the question is:
1. The question is really irrelevant because this country has a strategic interest that Israel maintain its QME, or Qualitative Military Edge. It has nothing to do with Jews, antisemitism, and the like but rather plain strategic interest. So our elections are largely irrelevant to the State of Israel.
2. We (those who do not worship at the idolatrous altar of Zionism) recognize that Zionism and its State have always been an enormous liability and cause of suffering to the Jewish people. So, we have zero interest in the Zionist regime (the State of Israel) that has invaded large portions of E”Y over a century ago and that has shmaded our brethren there and world-wide. We care only about our brethren (Jews) world-wide.My prior posts in response haven’t been approved.
I
l’ll try again.The איסור להתגרות באומות העולם is just as in force as it always has been since the start of galus.
However, if we look to both Chanukah and Purim, we see an interesting difference, which Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro points out in various media.
On Chanukah, we used the tools of Esav against the misyavnim and yevanim, because the latter groups’ target was the Torah, not us, so we had to defend the Torah by even resorting to Esav’s tools when needed.
By contrast, on Purim, we used our tools to annul the gezeira, namely Tefillah and Teshuva, because the target then was “only” us, not the Torah, so using Esav’s tools would not have worked there. Obviously, the story continues from there, but that’s besides the point.
Same with the Zionists (Esav’s tools have still not achieved the Zionists even a single day of peace in its bloody existence).
This particular words of this (not very “well known”) “community activist” are not indicative of the rest of Klal Yisrael. However, it is a chutzpah and rishus for the authorities to close down the shuls (10 people only no matter what is the building size?), especially at this point.
@daniela:
Surely you know that those two situations are not even remotely comparable.@always_ask_questions
Your recent posts are somewhat ironic given your screen name.
My post clearly delineated multiple reasons why wearing a mask or not doing so do not carry halachic implications including Chilul Hashem.I would be interested to know to which Rav you refer, or at least in which Yeshiva he learned and how long ago, etc. But that’s not really relevant, anyways, I guess.
mkylb:
Surely you mean well, but
1. You don’t know for a fact that we have witnessed higher infection rates, nor are you taking into account larger family densities than liHavdil the gentiles, which would explain that alleged higher rate. But that allegedly higher rate is anyways false. It’s also irrelevant because you have to know on what it is based. For example, if only sick people get tested, then the rate will obviously be higher than other places where healthy people are being tested. Etc.
2. You should not make false blanket statements claiming that we haven’t followed the government’s rules. In my shul, and others in which I have davened, everyone is strict about wearing masks.
3. You also don’t know if the government’s science is sound or mistaken. There are plenty of videos from people with degrees and experience in these areas who say that masks don’t help. Back in March, I think even Dr. Fauci himself said so, if I recall. The virus, in my understanding, is way smaller than the tiny holes in the mask, so a mask is, essentially, no better than breathing through a mesh screen door, though it might be better than nothing.
4. With all due respect, unless you learned in Seminary or elsewhere the halachos and parameters of Chilul Hashem, then I would not be so quick to label this a Chilul Hashem, even without the above three points, and potentially create an actual Chilul Hashem of giving up on Tznius, etc. to try to effect change in this matter. Even if you do know the halachos, though, your keeping tznius will surely accomplish much more than anything you could do by violating that.rational:
Excellent post, in my humble opinion.
However, I think that there is a difference here.
The Governor and Mayor are essentially imposing a gezeiras shmad. No shuls, no schools, etc.On Chanukah, we fought the Yevanim, even with actual tools of war, Esav’s tools, because they threatened the Torah. Whereas, on Purim, when it was “only” our lives that were threatened, we did teshuva, davened, etc. until the gezeirah was nullified. And the story continues there.
This current period whatever precise context it may be, includes this gezeiras shmad, which is also, liHavdil, also against our constitutional rights.
So that seems to call for a vocal defense of the Torah, including Agudath Israel’s lawsuit against this terrible over-reach by the City and State governments.
1:
No, the Zionist State of “Israel” is a political construct (as in a governing entity), not a land. Therefore, it is obviously not the homeland of the Jews.As akuperma noted, that political construct, the State of Israel, happens to be far worse than the gentiles here.
As to Eretz Yisrael, that used to be the homeland (in the literal, not Nationalist, sense) of the Jews until Hashem kicked us out, forbidding us to return to E”Y either en masse and/or against the wishes of the Nations, as well as forbidding us from claiming political sovereignty.
The Zionists, representing only themselves, not the Jewish people, in their Zionist quest to remake the Jewish people from a Torah-based nation into an idolatrous/godless Nationalist gentile-type nation, flagrantly violated all of the above and more with their creation of their heretical State of Israel, intentionally usurping the name of our Jewish people, “Israel” as the name for their idol State.
n0 mesorah:
Zionism as in ideology, and as embodied by the State of Israel, is anti-Torah and (therefore) anti-Judaism.
Zionism attempts to change the Jewish people’s perception of themselves (never mind the danger to Jews R”L of the gentiles believing this Big Lie) from a Torah-based nation to a godless Nationalist/idolatrous nation.
This hasn’t changed and, as mentioned, this is more important to them (and lethal, Ch”V to Judaism) than the Zionists having achieved a State in 1948. The corruption of the definition of a Jew is far worse. Once you remove Hashem and the Torah from the picture, you are left with…Zionism? Atheism? Certainly nothing Jewish.
Regarding your assessment of the sefarim, I don’t know what you mean about the “future” not happening as they expected.
The bottom line is that we will always have a place to live in galus until Mashiach comes. Of course, the Zionists did their best in WW II to prevent Jews from going anywhere other than Palestine even if that meant their alternative was the Nazi gas chambers.
But to throw away the Torah because of a question of “where will we go from here” is simply silly. There always will be a place to live in galus. And there would have been more even during the Holocaust were it not for the Zionists’ evil treachery and prioritizing Zionism above all else.
Starting a State at a cost of the Jewish religion, not to mention billions of dollars and tens of thousands of Jewish lives and inflaming anti-semitism, etc. etc. is absurd. It’s also extremely deadly, because the punishment stated for doing specifically that is “Ani mattir es bisarchem…” R”L L”A.
Besalel:
Zionism did not end in 1948, as you think. It also doesn’t mean founding a State.To quote Rav Chaim Brisker, people think the Zionists shmad in order to gain a State. In fact, it is the opposite: they need the State in order to shmad.
Even the Israeli politicians of today still speak of it today.
The World Zionist Organization, the same one founded by Herzl YM”S, is still very much a Zionist force and, unfortunately, tens of thousands of Jews were recently scammed into voting for a “religious” (non-Mizrachi) party there (and literally accepting Zionist kefirah in the process when accepting the Zionist shmad “Jerusalem Program”).
So you first have to understand what is Zionism. It is not about founding the state in 1948. It’s not a secret and it’s not some academic matter. It’s right on the WZO’s web site, and on the State of Israel’s sites, too.
Regarding your comparison to Japan, that is not accurate. Hashem does not want the State of Israel to be. Never did and never will. Period. There is nothing to discuss other how to deal with the reality of that State’s (very) lamentable existence.
n0 mesorah:
I wish I could better understand your post so that I could attempt to answer it. But it seems that your understanding of Torah Judaism and liHavdil, both history and Zionism, might have to do with this communications gap.Regarding Zionism, please see my post to yichusdik above.
Please also look up Yaldei Teiman and Yaldei Tehran. And the recent (and current) battles against the Zionists to stop them from closing the yeshivos by drafting Yeshiva boys into their shmad army.
Much more importantly, please read what all the gedolim have written about Zionism from even before 1948, like, for example, Rav Elchanan Wasserman (including in the name of his Rebbi, the Chofetz Chaim), and also from after 1948, like Rav Reuven Grozovsky’s Biayos haZman and the Satmar Rav’s sefarim (on which nobody of note has argued except on minor points like davening at the Kosel and on Israeli citizens voting in Israeli elections).
Regarding all of the factors, you could, of course, get a very nicely packaged and thorough view of all of this and much, much more by learning Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro’s sefer, The Empty Wagon.
He clarifies many misconceptions and debunks many myths, and sheds much (and much-needed) light on this very misunderstood sugya.
yichusdik:
It’s not a question of “if” the Zionists want to destroy Torah. That is the very essence of Zionism (to change the Jewish Torah nation into a god-less land-based Nationalist/Idolatrous Nation) and it is plain and obvious for all to see that this is exactly what the Zionists want and work to achieving as much as possible in this regard, R”L.ubiquitin:
So interesting how daas baal haBayis is exactly the opposite of daas Torah. The Chazon Ish didn’t think the Zionist state would last even 50 years. So Israel is already well beyond its expected life-span of shmad and, please G-d, we will all see this idol (among all others) disappear (with no harm cH”V to any Jews), as we all just davened yesterday and will again in one week.
an Israeli Yid:
Again, haTorah haZu lo tihei muchlefes.
vigam atem.