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SQUARE_ROOT:
Yes, their lay leadership does come across that way because they are concerned about the Jewish lives there, and they therefore think that advocating for the Zionist “government” is needed to help the Jews there under Zionist control. That seems to be the lay leaders’ logic.SQUARE_ROOT:
Now you’re copying and pasting from other posters, including their typos?
The Chevron (not Tzefas) riot of 1929 was indeed a direct result of Zionism and, yes, Jews did live peacefully there prior to the Zionist invasion.
The Tzefas (note that is Tzefas, not Jerusalem and not the rest of the land) riots about a century earlier were obviously due to other political factors at that time. But that isn’t relevant to the facts and truth which you and other Zionist idolaters refuse to accept, as mentioned.AAQ:
Nobody claims that the Arabs should have taken over a century ago. Had the Zionists never invaded, the land would have presumably been ruled by the Christians, with individual religious councils for Jews and, liHavdil, Muslims, living peacefully in their respective areas as they did prior to the Zionist invasion.@SQUARE_ROOT
Why do you spew the same nonsense in multiple places on these boards? Better to have not done so to begin with.
Agudah’s lay leadership certainly does seem pro-Israel because they treat Israel like any other country in which Jews are living; they want that government (in this case, “government”) to treat its Jews well, so they advocate on behalf of the Jews living in that country. That doesn’t mean their approach is valid, but that is their approach.Yaakov Yosef A and ZSK:
That is also Zionism, especially as per their current leader’s teacher’s teacher. Jabotinsky wrote that the new Hebrew Zionist, the replacement of the Jew, will be the exact opposite of the Jew (he misappropriated the term “ipcha mistabra”). When you look at a real Jew and see his characteristics, the new Hebrew Zionist replacement of the Jew will be the opposite.This is pretty stunning, if you think about that. Both the Christians and Muslims each gained tremendously from their exposure to Torah and their respective corruptions of the Torah in service of their respective invented religions. But the Zionists are a very different breed than even the Christians and Muslims, according to this Zionist. Take a look at a real Jew and imagine his opposite – not “just” becoming nationalist idolaters and Esav and the like.
But, no, Zionism is very much alive there. Zionism holds, at a minimum, that Jews are a nation-state-based nation like all other nations and that the Zionist paradise is the nation-state of the Jewish people. All of that is false, heretical and (of course) abominable, but very much alive today, unfortunately.
And since you mentioned “Religious Zionists”: again, the facts are that “Religious Zionism” is heresy and idolatry. The Chazon Ish held that the wine of a Mizrachi is yayin nesech. Anyone (not just “Religious Zionists”) who believe in even the slightest deviation from the Torah is a heretic. If you claim there are some “Religious Zionists” who fully believe in the Torah and not at all in Nationalism and other heresies – like anyone else – but happen to be pro-settler or whatever, then that’s a different matter and that means that they (and only they) are not “Religious Zionists” in that sense of the word. I’m not looking to judge anyone CH”V; but we do need to be clear on the facts and ideologies.
IzoBar:
“I rarely ever post on here but when you keep repeating the claim that riots in israel eg the [Chevron] riot of 1929 is beacuse of the zionists and that before the zionists the jews lived safely in Israel is factually incorrect. How do you explain the riots in tzfat in the 19th century eg tzfat 1834 or 1838? Not everything can be blamed on the zionists. ”No, what I wrote is factually correct. The facts are, as Rav Baruch Kaplan and other have noted (and as plain history records), the Chevron Massacre in the late 20s was a direct result of Zionist (needless, even by Zionist “standards”) provocation. I didn’t say that the Jews there lived in Gan Eden before that, but they did certainly did live peacefully before that.
It isn’t logical to argue that this fact is therefore incorrect just because you know of a riot that occurred about a century prior to the Chevron Massacre. The facts are the facts. Your question about what caused that riot is a different matter. The facts are, again, that the Zionists caused the Chevron Massacre and that, going back well before that massacre, prior to the Zionist invasion and even a little afterwards, the Jews lived peacefully there. Those massacres there were a result of other politics; that part is of course true.
an Israeli Zionist:
Right. And since learning Torah is indeed more important than anything else, then they should also never stop to eat and drink because learning is more important.Keith:
Please consult with your local orthodox rabbi.Kiruv certainly has its place, but that was obviously not the reference here. The discussion here is about the Zionist army whose express purpose is to destroy the Judaism of its inductees (and to destroy Judaism overall and remake it as Zionism, in general).
Regarding G-d loving sinners, that is true, and He does always wait for them to return. But we are commanded to hate those who hate G-d. Heretics do not receive any of the benefits of being Jews. Of course, Jews who never learned about G-d and the Torah are not to be hated. But this is all very much besides the point.
Again, please consult with your LOR.
coffee addict:
I don’t think it’s the same benefits, as Torah Learning is generally higher than other mitzvos, but it does make it the right thing for them to do, as you noted.simcha613:
I think your perspective on this is somewhat backwards, which is the likely cause of your frustration.
The chareidim not only want, but do indeed deserve, exemptions from the Zionist shmad army for all Torah Jews, not just those learning. This isn’t an “obvious problem” at all, especially if you understand the metzius.But first, your baseline assumptions are way off.
1. The Zionists were the ones who invaded against the will of the Torah Jews and therefore created their need for an army. That’s on the Zionists, not on the Torah Jews who not only didn’t ask for the Zionists to come invade, but actually begged the Zionists to stop invading and destroying the peace they had there and to leave. The wicked Zionists didn’t and don’t care.
2. There are halachos that determine where a Jew may or may not go. A Jew needs to be among Torah Jews, not among heretics. Zionism and its army exists for one reason only: shmad. The express purpose of Zionism is to convert Judaism and Jews from Torah-based Judaism to idolatrous land-based secular nationalism instead. In case you missed any of that, that means the Zionists want to replace Judaism and Jews with Zionism and Zionists. The Zionist shmad army is the main tool of the Zionists to effect that change. Obviously, then, a Jew cannot possibly be required to enter an institution which will damage his Judaism, all the more so not one like the Zionist shmad army whose express purpose is to shmad them, to convert them from Judaism to Zionism.
Further background:
The wicked invading Zionists, back then, made a deal with Agudah that Torah learners will be exempt from the Zionist shmad army in return for Agudah not exposing to the UN the Zionist Big Lie that the Zionists really represent only Zionists and not Jews. Based on the above, we can understand why Agudah lay leaders made that deal. They incorrectly took as a foregone conclusion the then-impending establishment of the “State”, not understanding, as the Brisker Rav noted, that decisions by a kesher reshaim are not relevant in Heaven. However, based on that mistaken assumption, they figured that they have no choice but to accept that impending establishment as reality, and then negotiate with the Zionists. So, they figured, as long as the Torah Jews are exempted from the shmad army, then they can continue to remain Torah Jews, so they made that deal with the Zionists that they wouldn’t expose to the UN the Zionist Big Lie for what it is, namely that the Zionists do not represent Jews but rather only Zionists, in exchange for the Zionists not shmading the Torah Jews in their army.3. Therefore, it is only because the wicked Zionists force the Torah Jews to either learn or else be shmaded in the Zionist army, that the Torah Jews all have to learn until 26 years old until the Zionists finally exempt them and let them start working, which means the Torah Jews are impoverished by the Zionists in the process. But the real problem is the wicked Zionists, who don’t let them live as Jews so they could be free to work like Jews do in actual countries all over the world.
4. On a less important note, you are assuming that the wicked Zionists need more soldiers, even according to their calculations. The wicked Zionists have been lying since they came into existence a century ago, so I’m not sure why you are so quick to believe them that they need more soldiers. In fact, if the wicked Zionists would go to the nations and ask Esav to take over, however exactly that needs to be worked out, as the Satmar Rav noted decades ago, then they wouldn’t need any soldiers. I know that even considering this possibility blows the minds of Zionist idolaters because it is heresy to Zionists, so you have to just use your imagination a little and think outside the idolatrous box of Zionism on this one.
Regardless, bottom line, the wicked Zionists are the ones who opened this “pandora’s box” against the will of the Torah Jews living there, and the Zionists are the ones who can clean up their own cataclysmic mess that they the Zionists made against the will of the Torah Jews living there.
SQUARE_ROOT:
Denying reality and trolling are both really not productive.
He is obviously not at all typical of those who enter the Zionist shmad arm.
Also, your “logic” is anyways fallacious. One exception obviously does not negate the entire rule, of course.Let’s review, again, since the idol of Zionism seems to allow you no rest.
1. Zionism is a shmad (as per all the gedolim and as anyone with even half a brain knows). The express goal – and unchanging – of Zionism, ever since it was founded, was and is, simply, to replace Judaism and Jews with godless idolatrous nationalism/Zionism and Zionists. It really is that simple.
2. The Zionist army is the main brainwashing tool of that shmad.
3. Therefore, as both logic and history/statistics show, the Zionist army is a shmad factory. Again, it really is that simple.As to your rant at the end:
When Jews not brainwashed by Zionism witness the disgusting HATE (Judenhass) of the wicked Zionists, that does NOT make them view favorably the idolatry and heresy that is Zionism. On the contrary, the Zionists push those Jews farther-away from the idolatry and heresy of Zionism, with the Zionists’ wicked disgusting relentless hate, including attempting to forcibly shmad the yeshiva students and much, much more.Yaakov Yosef A:
That means that of course they are doing more shmad now.Zionism is shmad, of course.
For example, the wicked Zionists are pushing the filth that is Zionist heresy and idolatry to all the millions of schoolchildren in their school systems (except for the chareidim who know better than to take Zionist money).YB:
I never stated that. The oaths are not relevant to individual/local self-defense. You seem to have confused the two. And the Zionist army is a shmad and non-starter, regardless.SQUARE_ROOT:
The Agudah lay leadership writes with the understanding that the Zionists have “control” of the lives of millions of Jews. You can interpret that however you wish, but that is the obvious motivation there. Regardless, that doesn’t have any relevance as to whether or not its gedolim hold more stringent views than that.But none of that is anyways relevant to the various Zionist nonsense being spewed on these boards. The facts remain that Zionism and its army are a shmad, and obviously a non-starter for Jews to be drafted into that army. And the oaths have been brought down as halacha by poskim throughout the ages. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Even Agudah’s lay leadership (never mind the gedolim) did not deny any of that.
yankel berel:
1. The S”A was not at all allowing the wicked heretics to establish an entire (shmad) “State” using terror and war against the nations – which even Rabbi Kook forbade. Obviously, one has nothing to do with the other.
2. He wasn’t referring to the oaths there, because the oaths aren’t counted as one of those issurim; but poskim throughout the ages bring them as being halachically applicable/practical, and there are open divrei chazal that mention terrible punishments R”L L”A that came about because of the oaths, like those from shevet Efraim who left Egypt early and harugei beithar about which we just learned over 9 Av.
3. This is an academic question, but in no way does that lack of inclusion act as a proof against the oaths, of course. It’s simply worth nothing that they aren’t found there, though other poskim certainly do bring them both before and after the S”A.The oaths are practically in force, as proven by both poskim and history, which is why “Religious Zionist” idolater scholars make pathetic but futile attempts (beneath their academic abilities) at explaining them away.
yb:
You still haven’t quoted the avnei nezer that supposedly states what you claim it does.
But the oaths are very obviously in force/practically applicable, as history has shown and as numerous poskim through the ages have brought, including BUT NOT LIMITED TO the Rambam in Moreh Nevuchim, which is why “Religious Zionists” come up with these wacky nonsensical ideas in trying to pretend they are no longer in force,As to the rest:
Even if there were some who somehow seem to be religious after going through the shmad of the Zionist army, that does not change the reality, facts and statistics of the shmad that is the Zionist army. Please stop with the silliness.The Zionist “State” was, is and always will be, absolutely forbidden. What to do or not to do about that is a matter debated by the gedolim. But serving in its shmad army is definitely not among the possibilities of what could be done.
Always_Ask_Questions:
Being drafted into the Zionist army is a vadai shmad – and all three of the gimmel chamuros – not a safeik, as the statistics show and as anyone who knows people there knows. The gedolim, therefore, ruled as UJM noted.yankel berel:
The questions are not questions, but they were answered many times.Nobody ever said that Jews should allow themselves to be slaughtered, R”L L”A. Of course not. And the Zionist army is an absolute non-starter. Those two facts do not contradict each other in the slightest, as mentioned many times before.
It doesn’t matter which country of Esav rules the land, so long as it’s done right – and it can and should be done right. And if they rule that land, then they would treat it like any other land, and protect the inhabitants of that land, as they do in their lands and territories today.
The Steipler never permitted maintaining the “State” once it was established; that is a myth perpetuated by, among others, the “Religious Zionist” authority Rabbi H. Schachter, but it is totally false. The Steipler there stated only that voting in the “State”‘s internal elections was permitted, as in for council members, etc. as opposed to voting to establish the “State” which was forbidden.
Shomu Shamayim that people are still fooled by the Zionist idol.
somejewiknow:
Zionism is much worse, actually.Zionism is the wholesale replacement of Judaism and Jews with, instead godless and idolatrous/nationalist Zionism and Zionists. Zionism doesn’t claim only to be compatible with Judaism. Zionism claims to **be** Judaism, discarding G-d, the Torah and our rich and beautiful heritage (including much of our history) in the process.
(The “Religious Zionists” simply add back on a little of the Torah (and G-d). As the Brisker Rav published, and many signed on to the same, “Religious Zionist” education is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”.)
Yaakov Yosef A:
“…from many decades ago, when Secular Zionism was a very real issue…”
This is one of the sillier Zionist memes.Many years ago, the wicked Zionists were doing atrocities like yaldei teiman and yaldei tehran and all the rest. But even if they aren’t literally throwing away people’s priceless sefarim as they dock in Haifa, they are actually doing much more shmad now than then. Just consider the simple statistics of how many Israelis are totally secular (not just “Religious Zionist” idolaters, but totally secular).
As well, right now, the wicked Zionists are pulling out all the stops to close the yeshivos there. As you can read on the Jewish blogs like YWN, their gestapo attempted to take away a yeshiva student from his house at 1 AM just last night.
SQUARE_ROOT:
Please consult an Orthodox Rabbi ASAP. Your response is concerning.What I stated is a simple fact and reality, also stated by the gedolim.
Therefore, it is not motzi shem ra, as that would be false.
It is also not lashon haRa, because that applies only to those who are biChlal amisecha, not to the Zionist shmad “State” and its army, of course.
It is also not “gross ingratitude”, as it does not impact in any way gratitude or lack thereof.
It is not sinah, and also not chinam.
It is also not machlokes.Please seek immediate rabbinical counseling to address your lack of understanding in these important Torah matters.
Yaakov Yosef A:
“1. Chareidi opposition to service in the IDF in its present form doesn’t have anything to do with ‘Zionism’. It is primarily due to והיה מחניך קדוש (the basis of a ‘Jewish Army’), and even honest RZ admit that is true.”
Although your reason is true, and a non-starter, the opposition is even more basic: Zionism is shmad and their army is the chief instrument of that shmad.Zionism is idolatrous and heretical (godless) nationalism, and (not merely adding on to, which would be terrible as it is but) redefining Judaism and Jew into Zionism and Zionist. The Zionist army is one major way in which the wicked Zionists accomplish that shmad.
AAQ:
Of course, the baryonim of today would be the Zionists. The wicked Zionists created a cataclysmic mess in the holy land, and need billions of dollars each year to keep their idol “State” going. Like by the baryonim, the wicked Zionists wanted to force Jews to fight wars in the Jews’ land rather than letting them live in peace, as we just learned in the gemara in gittin over 9 Av.Chaim can make up his stories, but they don’t change the facts that Zionism in all forms is treif, as written explicitly by the greatest gedolim.
And yes, of course there are answers to the weak questions implicit in the stories.But, bottom line, you have Rav Elchonon’s Kovetz Maamarim, the Brisker Rav, the Chazon Ish and all the rest who published that Zionism is idolatry and heresy. For example, the Brisker Rav published a KK in a newspaper, signed by, among others, the Gerrer Rebbe, that “Religious Zionist” education is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”. Those are the facts. And then there are Chaim’s stories.
user176:
Promoting Zionism in any way is the epitome of sinas Yisrael (as in hate of Jews).
But, by your logic, attacking Palestinian Nationalism in any of its forms is literally baseless hate.yankel berel:
You can make up whatever stories you want. The Zionist army is shmad, in addition to the issues of the three oaths. The Zionist army is all three of the inviolable prohibitions: idolatry, immorality and spilling blood – and shmadAnd your nonsense about the oaths is just that. Many poskim throughout the ages have ruled that the oaths are in force, even though it is not a clear mitzva in the Torah like honoring your parents or the like. And none of the authorities you quoted ruled against that. The oaths are clearly in force, which is why the “Religious Zionist” idolaters try to hard to nullify them with various nonsensical claims.
yb:
The Zionist army is shmad. Period. It is expressly designed for that. All the gedolim (including Rav Steinman) said it is, as mentioned. We all know many people who were shmadded, as it happens. Look at the statistics of Israelis. This is silly.yankel berel:
You and the Zionists could start by responding to the calling out of all the sheker and heresy you’ve spewed on these boards.Regarding your points:
It makes no practical difference if the Tur does or does not bring that Maharal. He doesn’t rule against the Maharal. And we still know very clearly, from poskim throughout the ages and from the terrible instances of destruction of Jews like harugei beithar, that the three oaths are G-d’s will and very much in effect.No, Zionist idolatry is the result of a disconnection from G-d. The medrash states explicitly that harugei beithar was due to their having violated the oaths. Don’t be a kofer.
Nope. The clear reality of what the Middle East is now, if anything, provides more opportunity than in the past for the Zionist “State” to be handed over to Esav, or some other solution, that does not involve loss of anything other than that idol and its numerous problems and astronomical waste of money.
Nope. There is no “factual and clear evidence” of that sort. All the gedolim (as recently as like yesterday, as it happens) have confirmed that it is absolutely forbidden for Jews to join the Zionist shmad army. LBC”L, Rav Steinman told a boy who came to him that he guarantees him that if the boy joins that shmad army, no matter the framework, that he will come out of it “a total goy”! And you idolaters refuse to acknowledge the reality that the express purpose of that shmad army is to shmad Jews, to convert Jews and Judaism into Zionists and idolatrous godless Zionism. So even if it were true that some infinitesimally percentage seem to come out frum, against all odds, that doesn’t at all permit others to put themselves in that situation. It is forbidden to place one’s self in a place of nisayon. We pray each day to save ourselves from that. And on and on…
There is not such “clear evidence that the majority of haredei talmidei hahamim …” rejected the oaths as the source of any punishment. You would have to quote where they explicitly deny that the oaths were the cause, and you obviously cannot do that because that simply isn’t true. You’re simply assuming.
Again, nope. See Biayos haZman, for example. Rav Reuven there wrote that he doesn’t “come on to” the oaths because there are other halachic considerations that are even more obvious.
It is the idolatrous Zionists who think they understand the Torah better than all the gedolim who explicitly forbade Zionism including “Religious Zionism”.
But they have no answer, of course. Eileh elohecha tziyonim.
AAQ:
Again, “having a draft is not a normal thing, at least not in most of the world.”, regardless of “documentation”.
The rest of your post is incomprehensible.AAQ:
That does not at all imply that the Mir R”Y in any way permitted the abomination of joining the Zionist shmad army in any case. He just stated that given the rules, he did not want to be called a liar.AAQ:
You still don’t seem to understand.The Zionists invaded against the will of the Jews there, and destroyed the peace of the Jews there, over a century ago. If anything, the Zionists should prioritize protecting the chareidim, because the Zionists are the ones who ruined their peaceful existence there over a century ago. (Yes, if you ask about the Chevron Massacre then you obviously are ignorant of history, because that, too, was a result of – not despite – Zionism, as Rav Baruch Kaplan and others noted).
No, having a draft is not a normal thing, at least not in most of the world. And, again, as the Chazon Ish told David Green, the first Zionist “Prime Minister”, if not for the Zionists, there would have been no need for any army there.
So, the Zionists are the ones who chose to invade against the will of the Jews there; therefore, the Zionists cannot make the chareidim try to clean up the cataclysmic mess the Zionists made. As well, specifically regarding lomdei Torah, the Zionists made a deal with Agudah that Torah learners would not be drafted. The wicked Zionists may not renege on their deal.
SQUARE_ROOT:
If somebody were to endlessly spew propaganda for Jews for J, any normal Jew would answer that propaganda to prevent others from falling prey to idolatry and lies. Same here. Your hate should be directed to the wicked Zionists who have destroyed generations of Jews. But your idolatry tells you otherwise. So drop the idol.AAQ:
“> invaded the holy land against the will of the Jews there (the chareidim).Eida Charedit (that is not the same as large number of current haredim) was located at a couple of places under Turks. They did not control the country.
And I am personally fine if you want to separate from the country as Neturei Karta and live under your own protection. As far as I know none of Roshei Yeshivos hold by this and reside in the areas covered by Iron Dome.”No, of course they did not control the country; it was first under Turkish rule, then under British rule via the UN until the Zionist fought and terrorized the British into leaving and refused the UN’s wish to start a new mandate when the Zionists declared their “independence”. Either way, the Zionists invaded against the will of the Jews there, as mentioned before, and Rav YCC Sonnenfeld who led the Jews there did not want the Zionists to represent the Jews, which is why the Zionists murdered Dr. DeHaan, HY”D. Because Zionism comes before Jewish lives, as the Zionists amply demonstrated during (and before and after) the Holocaust.
Your “suggestion” seems odd. Obviously, they all live under whatever conditions the Zionist invaders provide, whether that is the Iron Dome or anything else. The Jews there have no choice in that matter unless they were to move out of the country. But it is the Zionists who invaded against the will of the Jews living there, as mentioned, so it is the Zionists who need to leave the Jews alone and also not impoverish them and let them work like in every normal country without requiring the Jews to convert to Zionism in the Zionist shmad army first. It’s really not complicated.
SQUARE_ROOT:
Your call to Star-K and their answer that they never heard of it does not therefore mean that I lied. I did not lie. It simply means that they never heard of it.
I did in fact hear that directly from a world-class talmid chacham. But all the gedolim anyways said the same in their writings, as mentioned. The Chazon Ish himself has in his Maaseh Ish that an apikores nowadays is one that either celebrates the Zionist “independence” day or one who blames the gedolim for the death of the Jews in Europe. So you can take all that to the STAR-K, if you want. But the greatest gedolim have stated this repeatedly.Yankel Berel:
Actually, it is stupid to claim that the oaths are not applicable/practical, because there are midrashim and other chazal who bring actual cases of how violations of those oaths caused extreme destruction, and numerous poskim who bring the oaths as practically in force (usually called “halacha”).The Avnei Nezer obviously knew of those midrashim and other maamarei chazal, too, so he obviously agrees that the oaths are in force/practical. His original piece, in context, would be much more informative and useful than your translation of one or two paragraphs.
Harugei Beithar, for example, was due to violating the oaths – and resulted in the greatest bloodbath of Jews in history – far, far greater than even the Holocaust, depending on how you learn that gemara in Gittin.
Shevet Efraim (the ones who left Egypt early), as another example, was a violation of the oaths which caused them to be wiped out, R”L L”A.
This isn’t very complicated. For example, there is no halacha that Moshe Rabbeinu is the greatest Navi who ever lived. The Torah says it (explicitly), so we know it’s both true and practically applicable (as in you would be a heretic for stating that any other prophet did reach his level), even if it’s not a halacha. Same here. The Torah tells us about the oaths, including times when violating those caused punishment R”L L”A, so we know that the oaths are both true and practically applicable.
As we know from all the Zionists who fruitlessly attempt to explain away the oaths, we all know that the oaths are indisputably both valid and practical/halachically in force, just like Moshe Rabbeinu being the greatest navi who ever lived.
simcha613:
No, having an elective gemara class for girls is not at all “perfectly in line with this halacha”. It is forbidden to teach them Torah sheBaal peh, particularly gemara and the like, as Rav Moshe Zatza”l noted. If women choose to do so on their own, that’s their business. But their possibility of learning it improperly obviously does not then permit rabbis to violate the halacha so that the women should learn properly.The answer is likely that you seem to feel, with no actual basis, that it’s an eilu viEilu, so this is how you seek to justify it. But, in reality, it is simply forbidden.
none2.0:
Why do you post here? This is intended for Orthodox Jews (and not people with an extreme imagination). Your libel against the Rabbis and the gemara is silly and baseless. The gemara is G-d’s truth, regardless of whether or not any women choose to learn it.SQUARE_ROOT:
Take it up with all the gedolim, like Rav Elchonon Wasserman and the Chazon Ish and the Brisker Rav and all the rest.
“Religious Zionism” is idolatry. Period.Your insane ranting about this causing a “civil war” is just that: insane. The wicked Zionists constantly crank out immense propaganda against the Torah, deceiving countless Jews (including you), R”L L”A. There will be no such thing, of course. But when Moshiach comes, you and all the Zionist heretics will see clearly just how stupid and insane is your idol of Zionism.
riva:
It is actually the Zionists who are literally full of hate, who have destroyed generations of Jews and working even harder than in the past to destroy the olam haTorah in E”Y. It is the wicked Zionists who impoverish the Jews there and don’t allow them to work until age 26! unless the Jew agrees to first convert to Zionism from Judaism in the Zionist shmad army. That is extremely hateful. And on and on.Always_Ask_Questions:
Nope. Even that argument doesn’t apply. The wicked Zionists invaded the holy land against the will of the Jews there (the chareidim). The Jews there (chareidim), therefore, have zero responsibility to help out the Zionists in their endless wars. If anything, the wicked Zionists (as they agreed to Agudah when they declared “independence”) need to treat the chareidim as a protected class.Always_Ask_Questions:
Your story from the Ponevezher Rav is, of course, not a stira to the Satmar Rav, though they could argue on that point, in theory.
Since the PR held that the building would eventually turn into a yeshiva – for however long it would last – the PR wanted that building to be built well.SQUARE_ROOT:
Peaceful dismantlement of the Zionist “State” has never been publicly advocated by the Jewish political organizations like Agudah, in part because there is no clear path to doing so without the cooperation of the Zionists.yankel berel:
Huh? Age doesn’t make a practical difference. It is forbidden to put one’s self in a position of being shmaded and all three of the gimmel chamuros. They are yehareig viAl Yaavor.Yes, the Zionist shmad army happens to be even worse for someone younger but, no, being older does not at all remove the numerous non-starters with joining the Zionist shmad army. That should be plain and obvious.
yechiell:
Zionism is diametrically opposed to the Torah and Judaism. That is a simple fact.
A much better question, then, would be why this site allows “Religious Zionist” idolaters to spew their idolatry. After all, this site calls itself Yeshiva World News, not Mizrachi World News.simcha613:
Your claims are not based in reality. Jews lived in Eretz Yisrael long before the Zionists invaded in the early 20th century, and well before they declared their “State” in 1948. As well, Jews throughout the ages tangibly expressed their ahavas haAretz by moving there, including the Or HaChaim HaKadosh hundreds of years ago and many, many, many others.The Zionist “State” has destroyed more Torah than anything else in history. They’ve shmaded at least three generations of Jews, numbering in the millions of people!! The yeshivos there exist despite the Zionists, not because of them. The biggest supporter of Torah currently is actually the Russian President, not the Zionists.
No, the “medina” is not only far from perfect, it is an abomination and massive rebellion against G-d. And it has shmaded generations of Jews as mentioned. If any secular country in the world were to do even a fraction of what the wicked Zionists do to the Jews there, everyone would be yelling about it non-stop. So, to claim as you did that we are “better off with the medina” is both absurd (on a practical level) and heresy: we are always better off following G-d’s wishes, not massively rebelling against him as the Zionist “State” was, is and does.
You are also totally misrepresenting the origins of Zionism. The express purpose of Zionism always was and remains today: change Judaism from a Torah-based religion to an anti-G-d idolatrous nation-state-based “religion”.
Hashem did not choose to grant any yeshuos through the Zionists. Hashem did listen to those who prayed for the Zionists and did give them success, to the tremendous detriment of Jews worldwide. “We” do not have a medina. “We” do not have E”Y. We could have visited E”Y before the Zionists came, and could have lived there before then, too. The Zionists have wreaked havoc and cataclysmic destruction there in E”Y.
It is shocking that above even has to be written and is not already obvious to all.
anonymous Jew:
Actually, it is not “like any other legitimate government”. The Zionists made a deal back when they first founded their “State” that Agudah would not publicly deny the Zionists’ outrageously false claim of representing Jews, in return for the Zionists not interfering with the chareidim there, allowing them to educate their children according to the Torah and exempting those Jews from the Zionists’ shamd army. Their whole “State” would never have come into being if not for that deal, which the wicked Zionists have now totally torpedoed.none2.0:
You seem confused as to reality. Did you know that Jews were able to visit the Kosel before 1948 and that only thanks to the Zionists’ war of “independence” did the Jews lose the ability to go to the Kosel? Were it not for Zionism and its “State”, Mashiach would have (not just could have but would have) been here decades ago (according to both the Brisker Rav and Satmar Rav), so we would certainly have had no problem going to the holy land. But, besides for that, the Jews lived peacefully with their neighbors in the holy land until the Zionist interlopers came in and lit the region aflame. Yes, the Chevron Massacre/Pogrom in the 1920s was a direct result of Zionism, of course.yechiell:
By Moshe Rabbeinu, G-d explicitly instructed the Jews then to go up and conquer the land. The plan was that they would do so without any war, like when they blew the shofar around Jericho and the walls came down, etc. As well, his army consisted of only supremely righteous Jews, never mind that the high spiritual level of a typical Jew then is unimaginable to us today. As Chazal say, even a maidservant at the sea saw greater spiritual visions than did Yechezkel the prophet.As opposed to today, Zionism is itself a gross rebellion against G-d (unlike Moshe Rabbeinu, of course) and the Zionist army is designed expressly to shmad Jews and is a den of all three of the inviolable sins, A”Z, giluy arayos and shifachas damim.
For starters. So, it’s not even a question.
SQUARE_ROOT:
Achdus is required among Jews, excluding idolaters and heretics.
The Chazon Ish held that wine owned by a “Religious Zionist” is yayin nesech.So long as the Zionists continue to lie that they represent Jews and continue to shmad Jews, causing some Jews to pray for that idol and, even worse, to be attached to that idol, CH”V, it is the wicked Zionists that are impeding the geulah.
yankel berel:
That is inaccurate, of course. G-d, as per His Torah and as stated by the Torah sages then and afterwards (including but not at all limited to the Satmar Rav), is the One Who had a problem with the Zionist enterprise including, but certainly not limited to, the mass settling of the land against the will of the gentiles that the Zionists accomplished via war, all forbidden.Interesting.
First, a general observation: many things that the goyim do actually have their roots in our mesorah. That doesn’t make their version right, of course, but just worth noting.Now, let’s take your points one at a time:
There is certainly a mekor for giving gifts of jewelry to the Kallah, as we see from Eliezer eved Avraham and on.
There are mekoros for wearing white, in various contexts, as it is a sign of purity, which makes sense considering that they just had their personal Yom Kippur that day.
The types of hotels to which newlyweds go (meaning, nothing you would allow your kids to go near) are very unlikely to be infamous for those types of activities.
The solution to that is either for men to not watch that video or, better, for the videographer to create two final videos: one with the dancing and one without.
The last point is certainly true, though.SQUARE_ROOT:
I assume you won’t bother responding and will just find some more hevel uReus ruach to copy/paste to a new thread and just ignore the Torah’s view against your idolatry. But, on the off-chance that you do read this…Your latest response to me is full of nonsense, and my quote of the Torah’s view on this topic has never been refuted, to my humble knowledge.
“Religious Zionism” is idolatry as per Rav Elchonon, the Brisker Rav (who lived there, too), and all the rest. No, of course that has zero to do with the first Rashi in chumash, Avraham Avinu and all the mitzvos that are dependent on being in E”Y. Your giluy panim baTorah sheLo kaHalacha of the gemara regarding one who lives in chutz laAretz is also silly. The basic understanding of that gemara is that those who live in Hashem’s land, E”Y, are under the “direct oversight”, so to speak, of Hashem, as opposed to those who live outside E”Y who are *also* under the oversight of the “sar” of the nation in which they live. Of course, the “sar” of the Zionist paradise is the Satan, so that presumably puts those living there under the oversight of the satan, too.
Your academic question of why the oaths do not appear in the Rambam’s Yad and in the S”A has zero impact on the halachic relevance of the oaths, as brought down by numerous poskim throughout the ages.
Additionally, the nations of the world did not ever approve the creation of a Jewish State in 1920, as you falsely claimed. Balfour did signify British approval of a “national homeland” for the Jews, but not necessarily sovereignty, and that declaration was anyways rescinded by the subsequent White Papers and also clarified by the British that the Zionists “read much more” into Balfour than was written there.
Even if none of that were true, that doesn’t at all mean, as you again falsely claim and with zero basis for the same, that “therefore the oaths cannot apply in our time”. Of course they can and do apply, and the creation of the Zionist paradise has zero impact on that applicability because, in part, it is those very oaths that forbade the founding of that “State” (in addition to the numerous other halachic problems in founding that “State”). Again, all the prohibitions of the oaths, including Meridah baUmos, dechikas haKetz and aliyah baChoma, remain just as severely prohibited now as they were throughout the ages.
Yes, Rav Elchonon never saw the “State”. But he saw its ideological engine, Zionism, quite well. And the Brisker Rav, the Chazon Ish and many other gedolim certainly did see that “State” and even lived in it, and held the same as did Rav Elchonon that Zionism is heresy and idolatry.
The Zionist victory in 1967 was not miraculous; it was derech haTeva. There certainly was hashgacha from Hashem, just as there is anything that Jews do. But their victory was very much not miraculous.
That “baal teshuva” movement you mentioned was only needed because the Zionists shmaded almost all the Jews there to begin with! And that anyways doesn’t change the Torah CH”V.
The Satmar Rav expressed numerous severe problems with the Zionist “State”, but socialism was obviously not a very big concern of his.
Regarding your ramblings at the end of your post:
No, there is no valid logic to those who disagree with the Torah’s viewpoint of the idol and heresy of Zionism. No, asking the gentiles to “take over” would not in any way lead to a “civil war” and attacks on Jews and another Holocaust, CH”V. First of all, it is the Zionists who caused the Holocaust (primarily to achieve their “State” afterwards. So that concern wouldn’t apply here. Second, the Jews there would be much safer under a normal gentile government than under the Zionist idolaters and heretics under which they live now. That is true both materially and spiritually. Your accusations of me at the end of your post are totally baseless and beyond the pale – and you’re likely projecting given that you are the Zionist.LMT:
Just because the Zionist flag itself is not an idol, according to Rav Moshe, that doesn’t at all change the psak of all the gedolim both before and after him that Zionism itself certainly is A”Z. Pretty straightforward.AAQ and Simcha613:
As Rabbi Jachter quoted from the Chofetz Chaim and Rav Moshe that it is forbidden to teach gemara to women and to normalize it for them, as the MO do. No sources permit that. If some women – with no schooling in gemara and with no encouragement to do so – choose on their own to learn gemara, that’s a different – and personal – matter. But, again, the Modern Orthodox attempt to stretch BY to learning gemara simply does not work and is wrong. Period.