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simcha613:
That story isn’t relevant here.
No, we don’t pray for Hashem to simply return us to our homeland; we pray for the redemption.
No, we are not being at all hypocritical in our prayers; it is actually the Zionists who are corrupting the same, of course.
For example, in viLiYerushalyim that we pray thrice daily, we ask G-d to return there with mercy and to dwell there as he stated and to build it speedily in our days a forever building and to establish the throne of David there speedily. None of that has any relevance to the Zionist abomination.GadolHadofi:
So, you’re also accusing falsely, all throughout your post. Wow.“re the medina : that ALTHOUGH THE MEDINA WAS A POSITIVE DEVELOPMENT FOR THE MANY PLEITIM AFTER THE WAR , who were left without a roof ”
No way the Brisker Rav ever stated that. Something (as in most of it) must have been lost in translation.RightJew:
Let’s rewrite that to reflect reality.
“Pro-Zionism” rantings of “Religious Zionists” serve to sanitize the great evils and Jew-hatred promoted by their idol.
“Pro-Zionism” Jew haters exploit their idolatry of Zionism to legitimize Zionist shmad and persecution of our fellow Jews under their jackboot.yankel berel:
It’s actually the opposite. The “ostritch” mode would be more like what you did: ignore every gadol who clearly held not like that, and ignore the Torah that clearly holds not like that, and latch unto a statement he made when he was clearly emotional.Would you really like it spelled out, and anger all the Zionist idolaters? Go ahead and point out where and how the Torah could possibly hold that a godless atheist who could have been violating all three of the gimmel chamuros shortly before he was killed could possibly be considered harugei lud. Please don’t be ridiculous.
Eva LiMoshav Lo:
In addition to UJM’s point, which means that you should take your wonderment to your LOR to get what is therefore an obvious answer given that, you are also conflating two very different things: geulah and the subsequent return to E”Y with Mashiach versus the Zionist invasion of E”Y and the cataclysmic mess that resulted (which they knew would happen but didn’t care).Hashem told us that Eliyahu haNavi will come to announce the geulah. That hasn’t happened yet, as of this writing.
What has happened instead is, as Rav Elchonon Wasserman called it, “galus under the yevsektzia”, which is “the worst galus of all”.Chacham adif miNavi.
Yaakov Yosef A:
Of places with significant (even minority) Jewish populations, not desert islands and not places with mere remnants of the same thanks to Zionist agitation and/or other reasons: as stated and as is obvious to all, the “West Bank” (if you want to exclude its periphery, then that’s fine, but doesn’t matter either way) is by far the most dangerous for Jews.Yankel Berel:
That one line that he printed was an emotional cry, not a serious point of halacha. Obviously, according to everybody – RCS included -, they are not like harugei lud. Please follow the Torah and its values and don’t be ridiculous.ZSK:
As mentioned, you continue to lie and accuse falsely. But if by “Am Yisrael”, you mean the pseudo-nation invented by the Zionists then, yes, most of us here are not part of that pseudo-nation.@SQUARE_ROOT:
You should be banned from posting (especially nonsense but, regardless) anything until you apologize for calling Jews Hamas agents and the like.@SQUARE_ROOT
You should be banned from posting (even if it weren’t nonsense) until you apologize to those you falsely accused on this site.@SQUARE_ROOT:
As mentioned in the other post you spammed with these vile curses against your fellow Jews (including members of these boards), you should beg forgiveness from those Jews that you cursed. You should be banned from posting anything else to these boards.@yankel berel
Even those who did not consider him a rasha, kofer or the like, still very much did consider his works to be totally against the Torah.
The Chazon Ish banned the sale of his books.
The Gerrer Rebbe stated that Rabbi Kook was “omer al tamei tahor”, and that was after Rabbi Kook gave him a letter (later retracted) that claimed he was retracting his problematic views.
And on…@SQUARE_ROOT
You should be banned from posting anything until you apologize to those you falsely accused of being Hamas or Iranian agents or whatever exact stupidity it was.SQUARE_ROOT:
As previously mentioned, you should be banned from commenting further until you apologize to those you falsely accused of being Hamas agents and the like.@ZSK:
Zionist soldiers are indeed “their” soldiers. They are soldiers of the Zionist army, which is a foreign entity. That’s not at all complicated.
And, yes, you lied and also accused falsely.“1. Calling any part of E”Y “disputed territories” is pure kfira. Or have you not read Shemos 6:8 “…. I will give it to you for a possession, I Hashem.””
Actually, it is “Religious Zionism” that is pure kefira. Since you are quoting from Shemos, I assume, then, you have not read the rest of the Torah where Hashem states that he will expel them from the land, which is what He did almost 2,000 years ago and will return us all there when Mashiach comes.
The political entity that is the “State” of Israel is anyways totally unrelated to any of the above, of course.2. The “West Bank” is far more dangerous, as has been sadly proven far too often ever since the Zionists conquered that territory.
3. Actually, we have a very clear idea of exactly what Rav Elchonon would say. It’s published in his sefer, of course. In fact, “Religious Zionism” has become even more fanatical and idolatrous since that time. For example, Rabbi Kook explicitly did not permit for violence in creating a “State”, while the reality was that it took massive violence and human sacrifice of Jews to establish that “State”, while the junior Rabbi Kook decided that everything in that “State” is holy including its weaponry and all the rest. SMH.
4. Go ask his students and all competent LORs. Besides, you anyways cannot compare those living in “the heartland”, surrounded by hordes of bloodthirsty savages, to communities that are barely over the Green Line.
And visiting Chevron and the like are very, very, very different than living there, of course.
Your attempt to claim “Religious Zionist” idolatry as Torah values will simply not work.
@yankel-berel
Rav Chaim Shmulevitz was expressing his emotions. He obviously was not making a halachic pronouncement that they are equivalent. This is so silly. Ask any LOR and none will say like that story from Rav Chaim Shmulevitz.
@ZSK
Nobody spit on their soldiers; don’t lie.chaim_baruch:
Regardless of the rest of your comment, I thought that this was worth highlighting:
“They are wonderful people who live in the heartland of Eretz Yisrael al pi Torat Yisrael.”In “Religious Zionist” parlance, this typically means that they are “settlers”, meaning that they live in the disputed territories. By far, that is the most dangerous place on the planet where Jews live. Rav Shach forbade living there as a “hisgarus gasa baUmos haOlam”. So, no, living there “in the heartland of E”Y” is not “al pi Torat Yisrael”, and not only according to Rav Shach.
As Rav Elchonon wrote, “Religious Zionism” is religion and idolatry beShituf.
It is “al pi” that, not the Torah.
Yaakov Yosef A:
A letter posted to this site is no longer just for “internal RZ purposes”. His response was, of course, to it being posted here, not to their “internal purposes”.CasualReader:
He’s very far from the only one, but, regardless, in the days of the shoftim, there were only 300 people who didn’t bow to the baal idol. This idol (Zionism) is also unfortunately very wide-spread.chaim_baruch:
The Zionist propaganda that you believe is, of course, totally wrong.
When you choose to serve, or send others to serve, in that army, that has exactly one and only one “benefit”: following the commands of your Zionist (and its “State”) overlords . That’s it, unless you also happen to save some Jewish lives while in that army.While it’s very nice of you to think that you and others are doing so for other Jews, the fact is that this mistaken feeling is simply a result of the pathetic but overpowering propaganda (i.e., lies) that the Zionists have foisted on you and the world.
Any other country in which Jews live is far safer than the Zionist paradise (which is the greatest cause of antisemitism in history). On 10/7, as everyone knows, the savages breached the Zionists’ billion shekel wall in over 100 places. If anyone had any illusions that the Zionist paradise was somehow a safe haven, then that should have disabused them of that silly notion.
Besides, on a reality-level (the “spiritual” level, if you will), we have a mesorah that American is the last station for Torah in galus. As well, the Zionists have ramped up their attacks on the Torah and its followers like never before in their calamitous and never-peaceful history.
So, if you and others choose to worship at the altar of Zionist idolatry and heresy and think that, as the Zionists claim in their “Jerusalem Program” that the future of the Jewish people is dependent on a secure “State” of “Israel”, that still has no bearing on the reality which is, of course, very different.
My Hashem please heal their pain and also teach them the unadulterated truth of His Torah.
As Rav Elchonon wrote, “Religious Zionism” is religion mixed with idolatry.As well, one wonders how this letter fits with the three quintessential qualities of a Jew: Baishanim, rachamanim and gomlei chasadim.
“The minimal and clear principles necessary to ensure the enlistment of the Haredi public—principles that include drafting fighters according to the army’s needs, oversight and enforcement solely by the army, and **preventing any direct or indirect state funding until there is actual enlistment** according to the army’s requirements—must serve as conditions for your support for any legislation.”
In other words, unless they agree to shmad themselves in the Zionist army (no matter the framework), the letter writers are requesting that the “State” let not their children attend school/childcare, let not their mothers be able to work, so let them all starve.
It doesn’t fit, of course.
yankel berel:
You seem confused about the Torah’s perspective on Zionism. All, not just the overwhelming majority, gedolei Yisrael hold that Zionism is treif.
It is plainly obvious, and doesn’t take a gadol to hold that, but that is nonetheless the reality.RightJew:
Your criticism of me is again wrong. What does NK’s letters have to do with anything, and what do Zionists vs. “Palestinians” have anything to do with Jews?The statement you quoted from them happens to be true: “It is clear from the Torah that not only Jerusalem does not belong to the Zionists; none of Palestine is theirs.” The Torah indeed does not give anything to them. It is simple halachic reality that Jews are forbidden to seek political independence and further forbidden from rebelling against the nations and also further forbidden from moving en masse to the Holy Land, all of which the Zionists flagrantly violated.
As to their “alliance” and all the other nonsense, they are obviously not heretical and certainly not more so than the atheistic Zionists. Regardless, the point they are desperately trying to make is that Jews are not responsible for anything the Zionists do. So, perhaps either thank them for their service in that regard or just ignore them.
Yaakov Yosef A:
The “old secular Zionists” are not “old” but very much exist today, and are very much Erev Rav.
As well, “post-Zionist” opposition to Judaism is far better for Jews than Zionist opposition to Judaism because Zionist opposition to Judaism stems from its need to redefine and replace Judaism with Zionism, while post-Zionist opposition to Judaism doesn’t have that ideological idolatry powering that opposition.SQUARE_ROOT:
You have falsely accused Jews of being messengers of savages, and have now actually cursed Jews simply because they don’t believe in your idol.You should beg forgiveness from all those Jews you have cursed, and you should also be banned from posting on these boards anything other than those apologies.
ZSK:
Not forgiven. I have not cursed anyone.RightJew:
Wrong. I was not at all dishonest.
The Zionists are totally corrupting the meaning of that first Rashi, and of course I believe in that and the rest of the Torah. Of course.No, the fictional land “Palestine” does not actually belong to the fictional “Palestinians”. Not that it matters.
Normal Orthodox Jews would not participate in such activities, but it is very understandable why those Jews do so – as mentioned, because it shows the world that the wicked Zionists do not represent the Jews and therefore gentiles who have a problem with the Zionists should therefore not take that out on random Jews as has unfortunately happened every time the Zionists engage in one of their never-ending wars.
SQUARE_ROOT:
You have falsely accused Jews of being messengers of savages, and have now actually cursed Jews simply because they don’t believe in your idol.You should beg forgiveness from all those Jews you have cursed, and you should also be banned from posting on these boards anything other than those apologies.
SQUARE_ROOT:
As mentioned in the other post you spammed with these vile curses against your fellow Jews (including members of these boards), you should beg forgiveness from those Jews that you cursed. You should be banned from posting anything else to these boards.AAQ:
The Chofetz Chaim agreed with his talmid muvhak Rav Elchonon, of course.YB:
Not very thoughtful, actually. The point remains that he is telling the gentiles not to blame Jews for anything the Zionists do or don’t do. That’s their point.WrongJew:
See the response in the new thread you made for that.WrongJew:
This issue has everything to do “Zionism” or “anti-Zionism”. NK is demonstrating (perhaps in an appropriate manner, but that’s besides the point) to the world that Judaism is not the same Zionism and, in fact, just the opposite: Zionism is diametrically opposed to Judaism.The point of that is to tell the gentiles that Jews should not be held accountable for anything the Zionists do.
Let’s fix that line you wrote at the end:
The time is long overdue that the religious Jewish community declare Zionists to be non-Jewish “rodfim” and enemies of the Jews…SQUARE_ROOT:
No, it is the actual Ani Maamin of waiting for Mashiach, of course. See the Satmar Rav on that (and nobody argues on that).P.S. No, again. What Rav Elchonon said a century ago about both secular and “Religious” Zionism remains at least as relevant today as back then. You just made that up. Logically, however, today there is an actual “State”, which is the object of their idolatrous worship, so his concerns remain even more more relevant.
And those rabbis are all absolutely right about Zionism, with nobody of note disagreeing.
TPANEACH:
First of all, it’s not about “NK”; this is the Torah’s view. But there is nothing there about which they need to be embarrassed. The oaths still remain in effect, of course, and nobody is permitted to violate them as the Zionists flagrantly did and do, and the “Religious” ones are proud of those violations.AAQ:
What other opinions? That of idolater Zionists? There are no other Torah opinions.@yankel-berel:
“the secretary general of the arab league in 1947 stated that if the state of israel is proclaimed , the massacres of djengis khan will pale in comparison to what is going to happen in EY [chvsh again] …”Yet the Zionists, claiming they had a 50/50 chance of winning the war, chose to go against the UN which wanted to start a new mandate and instead chose to flip the coin and go to war, regardless of the cost in Jewish blood. Because in the Zionist faith, Zionism is above all else.
@yankel-berel
“everyone says and everyone knows that Jews overall are not responsible for anything the Z do or don’t do. ”Maybe you could tell that to all the reshaim who have hurt Jews throughout the world every time the Zionists engaged in one of their forever wars, including the past two years since the savages made over a hundred breaches in their billion dollar wall and murdered and hurt hundreds of Jews there.
SQUARE_ROOT:
“This is important, because when Rabbi Ahron Cohen speaks to “various countries” about the evils of “The Zionists”, that is both Lashon HaRa, and also CHILLUL HASHEM, because non-Jews are listening.”As usual, Zionists have it totally backwards. Heretics, including the Zionists about whom he is speaking, are obviously not biChlal amisecha, so the halachos of L”H do not apply to them. In addition, it is a great Kiddush Hashem to inform the gentiles that Jews are represented by only the Torah and its sages and not by Nationalist heretics.
Can you please stop polluting these boards with “Religious Zionist” nonsense?
SQUARE_ROOT
He published that in his Kovetz Maamarim, obviously before he was murdered in the Holocaust, not that it matters precisely when he published it.
And that was universally accepted because it is the simple truth.A few decades later, in the holy land, the Brisker Rav published – and the Gerrer Rebbe and all the others signed on – that “Religious Zionist” education is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”. This is arguably even more severe than Rav Elchonon’s statement.
According to the Torah, “Religious Zionism” is idolatry and heresy. Period.
YB:
His view that Jews are not responsible for anything the Zionists do or don’t do is indeed a very important one.WrongJew:
Please consult ASAP with a competent LOR, as you hold views that are in direct conflict to the core tenets of Judaism.Duvidf:
Please immediately consult a competent LOR.As Rav Elchonon Wasserman and others wrote, “Religious Zionism” is simply religion biShituf with that same idolatry of Zionism.
And the belief in a divinely-ordained exile that can only be ended by the Messiah is in fact a core foundational principle of Judaism.Dofi (what a name):
You don’t mention the reason they joined that conference: to make the point clear that Jews are not to be held responsible for anything the Zionists do or don’t do.@Litvish95:
The gemara is also readable by English speakers on the Internet, of course.
The answer is very simple: that wasn’t the point of the discussion, and there was no need to mention it.As mentioned, and to quote your post: you and other Zionist idolaters have still failed to answer why you have never expressed pain over the spiritual death of millions of (fellow?) Yidden over the past hundred years due to the Zionists.
To further quote your post: “if you are Jewish, let me ask you a question:” how are you so quick to throw out a Jew’s chezkas kashrus or, worse, accuse a Jew of being a non-Jew?
Do teshuva, including asking for mechila bein adam laChaveiro, so that Y”K might help you.
In my prior response, just submitted, I wrote that SQR is a “disgrace”. I want to emphasize that calling (or even suspecting) myself and others “paid agents of Hamas” and the like is absolutely disgraceful and it was in response to that I wrote the above; still, I should have written that post was “disgraceful”, not that the one who posted is “a disgrace”.
Spamming these boards with Zionist nonsense is bad enough. But accusing Jews – who have a chezkas kashrus as far as you know – about something that you yourself are clearly lacking is extremely disgraceful, of course. Stop it. All of it. At least have an honest conversation, not spam and not (false) character assassination.
SQUARE_ROOT:
Your memory is obviously lacking, but there is anyways no need to state that the sun rises during the day and sets at night. Unfortunately, since idolaters like yourself spam these boards with your Zionist nonsense and filth, some then choose to show why those claims are obviously false. But responding to endless Zionist idolatry and nonsense is for the sake of G-d and Judaism, not whatever other silliness you imagine.But since you mentioned:
“One of the three signs of a Jew is to feel rachmonus, and this has been shown to be lacking. “The Zionists are the biggest achzarim, having shmaded and destroyed millions of Jewish lives over the past century and forcibly impoverish our brethren there who refuse to be shmaded in their army and therefore forbidden to work until age 26.
You and your fellow Zionist idolaters have never once condemned any of that unspeakable cruelty towards innocent Jews by supposedly Jews. You are a disgrace; at least don’t accuse others (falsely, as it happens) about what you, yourself, are quite lacking in.
Do teshuva, drop the idol, and stop spamming these boards.
@Litvish95:
Wow; so much with which to disagree.Do you mean the time when the mods approved the posts?
Gedolim also felt the pain of the Zionist shmad, but I didn’t see any Zionists commenting on how terrible it was that the Zionists have been perpetrating a spiritual holocaust for over a century. The point here is an academic (but very real) topic, not a guestbook for Zionist soldiers.
Regarding sources, I have mentioned Rav Elchonon and Kovetz Maamarim, the Satmar Rav and his Torah (as in VaYoel Moshe, Al HaGeulah… and others), etc.
@yankel-berel:
See above.
Of course there is no way that the Chazon Ish, Rav Shach and all the rest would ever permit anyone to be shmaded in the Zionist army.VIN doesn’t generally allow comments that are unflattering of the Zionist idol.
Regardless, this is also spam.
An academic Zionist is obviously not a valid messenger of the shitos of the Chazon Ish.
The Zionist army is shmad and all three of the gimmel chamuros. The Chazon Ish obviously did not allow anyone to subject themselves to that in the Zionist army.
The Chazon Ish’s only point about learning/not learning was that is somebody not learning would dishonestly claim an exemption for learning then that dishonesty could put at risk the general exemption. To resolve that issue, that non-learner should learn and get his exemption honestly, not shmad themselves in the Zionist army of shmad.
It’s really not complicated.
yankel berel:
The Avnei Nezer never stated that the oaths are inapplicable and/or irrelevant. The Avnei Zezer agrees that the oaths are indeed relevant and applicable, as brought by numerous poskim throughout the ages and as unfortunately whose deadly punishment was seen – and documented – by chazal throughout the ages.As mentioned to you above, but seemingly ignored:
“No, he does not dispute it. In fact, from True Torah Jews Org site (read the whole thing):
“He answers that the Jewish Oaths were imposed on the roots of the Jewish souls in Heaven…At this point, the Avnei Nezer is bothered: …how could there be a punishment for violating them? He answers that “I will permit your flesh as the gazelles and deer of the field” is not to be understood as a direct punishment, but as a cutting off of Hashem’s protection that comes as a result of the sin…Hashem’s providence and supervision is removed from the body, and the body is left as ownerless as the wild animals, which have no soul.”Clearly, it would be devastating to violate the oaths, even according to the Avnei Nezer and it is very dishonest to imply otherwise – as the Zionists idolaters do.”
So, yes; you are left with, at most, an academic question.
@Participant:
Severe TDS?The prior administration printed trillions of dollars. The effects of that don’t magically disappear in a new administration, but their policies seem to be at least helping, biEzras Hashem.
Israel “under the bus”? The current administration sent its own forces and equipment to destroy Iran’s nuclear program.
Bris Milah is under attack where?
Vaccinations are still required as before.Severe TDS.
Always_Ask_Questions, ZSK and others:
There are multiple answers for the omissions, but omission does not at all mean disagreement.
For example, the oaths are not as relevant to most people as, say, washing hands before bread.None of those, however, claim that the oaths are not in force, and poskim and history show that they very much are.
user176:
See above.A dispute is when two sides explicitly argue opposite rulings about a particular law. It is not a “dispute” when, like by the oaths, numerous poskim bring something as halacha and some happen to not mention it. That’s called an academic question as to why the others did not mention it.
Avi K:
Of course, the Satan cannot act without G-d’s permission, but that has nothing to do with this. Rabbi Kook’s philosophy was not accepted as valid Torah by the Torah sages, so no comment. But Chazal tell us that Hashem will bring the geulah Himself, not through basar viDam, regardless.yankel berel:
This is about the practical applicability of the oaths despite endless and futile Zionist attempts to pretend otherwise, not your personal opinion of any organizations.@ZSK:
The oaths are introduced in Talmud Bavli (part of our actual canon, as you put it) and brought liHalacha by poskim throughout the ages (see the Satmar Rav for a long list) and are invoked by even the Rambam himself in Iggeres Teiman.Obviously, no Orthodox Jew should invalidate any gemara and also not mislead other Jews about vital halachos that are very real and applicable to life, as has already been proven throughout history.
user176:
The “Religious Zionist” idolaters try very hard, but utterly fail in explaining away the absolute applicability of the oaths.yankel berel:
No, he does not dispute it. In fact, from True Torah Jews Org site (read the whole thing):
“He answers that the Jewish Oaths were imposed on the roots of the Jewish souls in Heaven…At this point, the Avnei Nezer is bothered: …how could there be a punishment for violating them? He answers that “I will permit your flesh as the gazelles and deer of the field” is not to be understood as a direct punishment, but as a cutting off of Hashem’s protection that comes as a result of the sin…Hashem’s providence and supervision is removed from the body, and the body is left as ownerless as the wild animals, which have no soul.”Clearly, it would be devastating to violate the oaths, even according to the Avnei Nezer and it is very dishonest to imply otherwise – as the Zionists idolaters do.
yankel berel:
No, the Avnei Nezer did not dispute it.The oaths are all in force, as they have been throughout history, as can be seen by anyone who cares to open a sefer. The Zionists violate them wantonly just as they violate the rest of the Torah.